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Leaving Cert System - Idea(s)

  • 25-04-2008 7:14pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭


    Leaving Cert - "It reflects your overall ability as an academic".Yet, not intelligence.

    The leaving cert is a retention test more than anything else and intelligence has very little to do with achieving high points.

    Some of the most creative and intelligent minds under achieve at secondary school because of teachers who teach purely towards the Leaving Cert, which is wrong.

    I am blessed in that I have an English teacher who resembles more a College Professor and classes are full of discussion and pupils are allowed an opinion and to debate what he says.

    I despise teachers who sit at the desk for 40 minutes and read from the book or hand out piles of notes, however, I understand it.

    Perhaps a general knowledge (and I don't mean Britney Spears etc.) quiz amounting to say 20 points could be brought in on trial? Proper general knowledge questions about the government, literature etc.

    Also, I believe that Civics (CSPE) should definitely be a subject on the Leaving Cert cirriculum. It is so important especially with fewer and fewer young adults voting.

    Have you got any ideas on how to change the Leaving Cert course for the better?


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,231 ✭✭✭Fad


    K4t wrote: »

    Also, I believe that Civics (CSPE) should definitely be a subject on the Leaving Cert cirriculum. It is so important especially with fewer and fewer young adults voting.

    Why?

    itd be a class no one wants to go to, you'd be made do it, itd be seen as a joke etc


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,231 ✭✭✭Fad


    look (sorry double post)

    this thread has NO point,
    its nice to discuss an alternative,
    BUT we have a system that works, it may not be perfect, but it works for Ireland

    I'd much prefer to have a system like the Alevels, but that wont happen any time soon, ID FECKIN LOVE to have four bigger subjects over the 8 that im doin now (my school makes you do 7 higher subjects and im doin OL math)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 78 ✭✭Fibonacci23


    K4t wrote: »
    Leaving Cert - "It reflects your overall ability as an academic".Yet, not intelligence.




    That's why its fair.... People who weren't exactly blessed with an abundance of brain cells can have the exact same chance of doing as well as the "naturally intelligent" people, with a little motivation and hard work...


    Intelligence and hard work= success in the leaving cert....


    Some cop on and hard work = success in the leaving cert...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 861 ✭✭✭KeyLimePie


    it's grand as it is


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 277 ✭✭Brooke01


    K4t wrote: »
    Leaving Cert - "It reflects your overall ability as an academic".Yet, not intelligence.

    The leaving cert is a retention test more than anything else and intelligence has very little to do with achieving high points.

    Some of the most creative and intelligent minds under achieve at secondary school because of teachers who teach purely towards the Leaving Cert, which is wrong.

    I am blessed in that I have an English teacher who resembles more a College Professor and classes are full of discussion and pupils are allowed an opinion and to debate what he says.

    I despise teachers who sit at the desk for 40 minutes and read from the book or hand out piles of notes, however, I understand it.

    Perhaps a general knowledge (and I don't mean Britney Spears etc.) quiz amounting to say 20 points could be brought in on trial? Proper general knowledge questions about the government, literature etc.

    Also, I believe that Civics (CSPE) should definitely be a subject on the Leaving Cert cirriculum. It is so important especially with fewer and fewer young adults voting.

    Have you got any ideas on how to change the Leaving Cert course for the better?

    what course do you want to get into and where ???


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    Fad wrote: »
    Why?

    itd be a class no one wants to go to, you'd be made do it, itd be seen as a joke etc
    It is/would be the most important subject for young people today actually.

    Just because you probably treated it as a joke for the junior cert doesn't mean it's not as important as Maths or English or any Science subject.

    Knowing how your country is run, about the environment and elections and politics is vital for students leaving school and is life experience.

    Look at the ferore at the moment over the Lisbon Treaty!!!! More than half of the population don't even know what it consists of!!!!

    Civics would be a great subject to have on for the Leaving Cert and certainly as important as any other subject currently on the course.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    That's why its fair.... People who weren't exactly blessed with an abundance of brain cells can have the exact same chance of doing as well as the "naturally intelligent" people, with a little motivation and hard work...


    Intelligence and hard work= success in the leaving cert....


    Some cop on and hard work = success in the leaving cert...
    Yes, ok, hard work etc.

    But, those who aren't naturally intelligent also find it very hard to study for 5 minutes, let alone an hour or two.

    It should not be based just on learning off notes etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,231 ✭✭✭Fad


    K4t wrote: »
    It is/would be the most important subject for young people today actually.

    Just because you probably treated it as a joke for the junior cert doesn't mean it's not as important as Maths or English or any Science subject.

    Knowing how your country is run, about the environment and elections and politics is vital for students leaving school and is life experience.

    Look at the ferore at the moment over the Lisbon Treaty!!!! More than half of the population don't even know what it consists of!!!!

    Civics would be a great subject to have on for the Leaving Cert and certainly as important as any other subject currently on the course.

    you're not getting my point, NO ONE would care. unless its an exam subject (which people would resent) and even then itd have the same respect as CSPE or religion (@JC level)

    it doesnt have the same weight as another subject ie A in maths is infitely better than an an A in CSPE
    and A in religion is even better than an A in CSPE
    an A in foundation maths is a better achievement than an A in CSPE


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    Brooke01 wrote: »
    what course do you want to get into and where ???
    I'm in 5th year and have a few choices lined up which I'm confident I will get easily enough. I am an 'A' student but I despise all this learning off of notes etc.

    So much of my time at school is wasted by writing out notes on pathetic Irish pros stories or doing maths problems I hope to never look at again once I leave school.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,362 ✭✭✭K4t


    Fad wrote: »
    you're not getting my point, NO ONE would care. unless its an exam subject (which people would resent) and even then itd have the same respect as CSPE or religion (@JC level)

    it does have the same weight as another subject and A in maths is infitely better than an an A in CSPE
    Yes, I mean it should be an exam subject at LC level and of course an A in it would be just as important as an A in Maths.

    No one subject is more important than another. However, honours maths is obviously harder than the rest on the LC course, it is not necessarily more important.

    I would class english as more important than maths, as would I Civics, but that's not a subject on the course.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,231 ✭✭✭Fad


    K4t wrote: »
    Yes, I mean it should be an exam subject at LC level and of course an A in it would be just as important as an A in Maths.

    No one subject is more important than another. However, honours maths is obviously harder than the rest on the LC course, it is not necessarily more important.

    I would class english as more important than maths, as would I Civics, but that's not a subject on the course.

    people dont vote because they dont care, not because they dont know,

    people wont care. maths is more important then civics.

    its shouldnt be as important as maths, it would have to be a ''common level'' thing with a possible 40 points for the CAO i just dont see the point at all


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 78 ✭✭Fibonacci23


    K4t wrote: »
    I'm in 5th year and have a few choices lined up which I'm confident I will get easily enough. I am an 'A' student but I despise all this learning off of notes etc.

    So much of my time at school is wasted by writing out notes on pathetic Irish pros stories or doing maths problems I hope to never look at again once I leave school.



    This is your opinion.... Your what, one out of the average annual 50,000 people who sit it? Not everyone thinks they're so "pathetic", or sees maths to be pointless....


    Considering your giving you own opinion on what you find useless, don't forget that not everyone sees things the same way... I, for one, would find CSPE quite unappealling...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 78 ✭✭Fibonacci23


    K4t wrote: »
    Knowing how your country is run, about the environment and elections and politics is vital for students leaving school and is life experience.


    Potential employers don't hire people on they're "life experience"! The Leaving Cert is a memory test, an exam to portray a person's ability at consuming and retaining information.... A good leaving cert means the person has put in the hours and commitment, which means they'll get a good college course, and therefore be able to withstand further commitment and motivation, and finally, degree in hand, employers want to know that you can learn easily and are willing to! A trip around the world and as much "life experience" doesn't qualify anyone for the working world...

    Which at the end of the day is what the leaving cert is about.... It's not a stepping stone to get out of secondary school, you can leave before if you want, but for future employment, it's a necessity....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25 AceofSpades001


    Well I think that a system should be brought in whereby extra cirricular activities could count towards leaving cert points i.e. work with charity, exceptional recognition in sporting areas etc. Maybe not for all courses, but certainly sports accomplishments should be taken into account for say sports sciences/pe teaching. Previous recognised theatrical work could count towards points if you were to go for a course like drama/english lit. There are lots of other examples I'm sure. Whether this would work on an application or interview basis is another matter and this would be different to say scholarships offered by colleges.

    Also last year UL offered bonuses on certain courses depending on what mark you got in higher level Maths. If you got A1, you got 100 plus a 20 point bonus, I think that each lesser grade got a 5 point deduction in bonus. That system of bonuses would go very well with certain subjects, I mean I could go off and do engineering if I had 4 A1 languages, history and religion, but what's the point. Wouldn't awarding bonuses to subjects that are relevant to the course help students that would be very interested and good at that course, say mechanical engineering, but wouldn't be able to get in because of poor marks in english, irish and their third language?

    Well that's my rant over.:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,523 ✭✭✭kwestfan08


    CSPE would definatly be a good Leaving Cert subject. It would be so easy to get handy points. Got an A in the JC with no effort at all. Im sure a lot of people out there feel the same as well.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭Mark200


    I think we shouldn't have all our exams within 2 weeks of eachother. They should be spread out over the two years, and done bits at a time. It would reduce the amount of stress on people soooooo much.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40 eoinalmighty


    K4t wrote: »
    Leaving Cert - "It reflects your overall ability as an academic".Yet, not intelligence.

    The leaving cert is a retention test more than anything else and intelligence has very little to do with achieving high points.

    Perhaps a general knowledge (and I don't mean Britney Spears etc.) quiz amounting to say 20 points could be brought in on trial? Proper general knowledge questions about the government, literature etc.

    Also, I believe that Civics (CSPE) should definitely be a subject on the Leaving Cert cirriculum. It is so important especially with fewer and fewer young adults voting.

    1. General knowledge test - Wouldn't work! General knowledge test is a test for those who are well read in all things sport, music and literature. I t does however leave out those with higher intelligence in Maths or music or science, those who have neglected furthering their knowledge of the world around themfor the sake of say, um, studying for the leaving cert! A lot of people have no interest in trivia and forcing a test on such people would be unfair! Intelligence is not determined by how much random information you have accumulated! Intelligence is understanding concepts, learning skills, retaining necessary information

    2. Civics - How do you propose a cspe exam for leaving cert. How would you possibly raise it to a level making it worthy of 100 cao points? Perhaps what you are suggesting is a law course because teaching common law is the only way I can see of making cspe a viable exam subject! To that I say no thank you! Many people would just resent having to do the subject

    3. Retention test - Of course it is and that's a life skill. In the workforce your not going to be employed for a smug smartarse who sails by on the minimum effort possible. You need to learn to work and to retain facts in detail. For example as a doctor you would have a huge amount to learn and general knowledge about a broad range is not enough! To specialise you need in depth knowledge flowing from your fingertips! You don't a doctor who can tell you oh it looks like you're sick but I can't say exactly whats wrong!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,397 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Well I think that a system should be brought in whereby extra cirricular activities could count towards leaving cert points i.e. work with charity, exceptional recognition in sporting areas etc. Maybe not for all courses, but certainly sports accomplishments should be taken into account for say sports sciences/pe teaching. Previous recognised theatrical work could count towards points if you were to go for a course like drama/english lit. There are lots of other examples I'm sure. Whether this would work on an application or interview basis is another matter and this would be different to say scholarships offered by colleges.



    This already existsto a certain extent. Students applying to the Drama and Theatre studies course in Trinity(which I believe no longer exists) had to attend an interview/workshop day to show their abilities. I'm a bit hazy on the details so feel free to correct me.

    Students who apply for PE teaching in UL have to undergo a 'Movement Ability Test' ie show their are reasonably fit and have no fear of water (for swimming). If it was a case that students were awarded bonuses for sporting achievement you could create a two tiered system where students who are good at sport but don't have access to facilities, can't afford costs associated with sport, play for teams and clubs who are not successful while the individual is a good athlete could be denied places. I did teaching in UL and from my experience of PE students all of them were already active in sports clubs, athletics, played county level GAA etc. Same could be said for Drama. The system is fair as it stands.

    Also last year UL offered bonuses on certain courses depending on what mark you got in higher level Maths. If you got A1, you got 100 plus a 20 point bonus, I think that each lesser grade got a 5 point deduction in bonus. That system of bonuses would go very well with certain subjects, I mean I could go off and do engineering if I had 4 A1 languages, history and religion, but what's the point. Wouldn't awarding bonuses to subjects that are relevant to the course help students that would be very interested and good at that course, say mechanical engineering, but wouldn't be able to get in because of poor marks in english, irish and their third language?

    Well that's my rant over.:D

    UL offer bonus points for all courses for HL Maths for grades A1 - C3 with 40 being awarded for A1 down to 5 for C3.

    http://www.ul.ie/admissions/newprospectus/Undergraduate/general/admissions.shtml

    You could do engineering with languages, history and religion but you would also have to have HL Maths or a high grade in OL and a science subject, which would show your aptitude for engineering anyway. Also the chances are that if you had picked predominantly arts subjects for leaving cert you wouldn't be applying for engineering in the first place. That's why colleges have minimum entry requirements for courses. Everybody else applying for engineering is in the same boat, so it evens out overall.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,397 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    K4t wrote: »
    Leaving Cert - "It reflects your overall ability as an academic".Yet, not intelligence.

    The leaving cert is a retention test more than anything else and intelligence has very little to do with achieving high points.

    Some of the most creative and intelligent minds under achieve at secondary school because of teachers who teach purely towards the Leaving Cert, which is wrong.

    And if teachers didn't teach what was going to come up on the exam students would be whinging that their grades were suffering. In a perfect world everyone would be learning for fun. In the real world the leaving cert is a means to an end for many and knowing how to answer the questions on the exam is the way to move forward. While a good teacher will make their subject interesting while teaching what is on the exam, not all students see all subjects as interesting so you have students taking a subject for whom the subject is a necessary evil. For me it was Irish and English but I just got on with it because it had to be done. I wasn't interested in the poetry of Patrick Kavanagh, I just wanted to know how I could get through English and get a decent grade without it being complete torture


    There are also subjects out there for the creative/practical types: Music, Art, Home Economics, Construction Studies, Engineering, Design and Communications Technology(Tech Drawing), Agricultural Science. All of those with the exception of Tech Drawing include some form of coursework/project/practical element where a student can show off their talents.

    K4t wrote: »
    Yes, I mean it should be an exam subject at LC level and of course an A in it would be just as important as an A in Maths.

    No one subject is more important than another. However, honours maths is obviously harder than the rest on the LC course, it is not necessarily more important.

    I would class english as more important than maths, as would I Civics, but that's not a subject on the course.



    Is this not a contradiction in terms?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,618 ✭✭✭Civilian_Target


    I think it should be based more on university exams, by forcing you to demonstrate understanding and application rather than rote learning.

    For example, in my university, it was obligatory that minimum 25% of all material on the paper was not covered in class and requires you to extrapolate from knowledge you already know.

    I think the real problems the Leaving Certificate suffers from are instilled much earlier in the school system, back in Primary School where you learn how to recite times tables instead of multiply, etc.

    Basically, too many people are prepared early in life for a system of role learning rather than a system of understanding. But if you think the Leaving Cert's a bad system, look at the A levels or French BAC to see how much worse it could be!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 59 ✭✭Casserine


    I'm kind of with the original poster. I do believe the Leaving stifles creativity by encouraging rote-learning. It may help you to get a job, but personally I'd rather be a well-rounded person than a desk-monkey! And I would love if there was some kind of CSPE-type subject on the Leaving syllabus. I do accept that it would be difficult to stretch it out to a proper Leaving Cert course, but a Political Science type course would be fantastic. It could incorporate the Irish governmental system/voting etc, but go deeper into the theoretical aspects of politics. Unless something like this already exists and I haven't heard about it...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,231 ✭✭✭Fad



    Basically, too many people are prepared early in life for a system of role learning rather than a system of understanding. But if you think the Leaving Cert's a bad system, look at the A levels or French BAC to see how much worse it could be!

    i agree with you regarding the BAC but i think the the GCSE/A Level system is fantastic, not only do you get to specialise in 4 (rather than 8 in my case) but you do as many subjects as we do in the JC to higher standard (with an extra year). I think its such a better system


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    BUT we have a system that works, it may not be perfect, but it works for Ireland

    Easy to say if it worked for you - how about all those people who would make brilliant programmers, musicians, whatever, but didn't get the "points" because they couldn't write an essay in Spanish? Or how about those brilliant mechanics who miss out because they don't know how the growth of fascism was fuelled by WWI?

    The system is absolutely ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that if a course has low points, people can get pressured into NOT taking it because it seems "lazy". On the other hand, for example medicine - some people who would make the best doctors in the world get turned away in favour of people who only took the course for the prestige, but just happen to be better at memorizing masses of pointless information...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,231 ✭✭✭Fad


    Easy to say if it worked for you - how about all those people who would make brilliant programmers, musicians, whatever, but didn't get the "points" because they couldn't write an essay in Spanish? Or how about those brilliant mechanics who miss out because they don't know how the growth of fascism was fuelled by WWI?

    The system is absolutely ridiculous. Not to mention the fact that if a course has low points, people can get pressured into NOT taking it because it seems "lazy". On the other hand, for example medicine - some people who would make the best doctors in the world get turned away in favour of people who only took the course for the prestige, but just happen to be better at memorizing masses of pointless information...

    im not arguing that its a good system im arguing that its a functioning system, it hasnt worked for me im in 5th year.

    if a person doesnt take a course with low points even though thats what they want to do, because it seems lazy, they are possibly the stupidest people EVER. i have never ever heard of someone not picking a course because of the points being TOO LOW! thats just idiocy.

    i have a freind whos only taking medicine because of the prestige, he's mastered rote learning, he got 11 As in the JC and will get & in the LC (brother already did the same and his sister will too) do i think he'll make a good doctor, yes, yes i do, because if you can manage to get marks as high as that it does denote a practical ability at those subject eg Math, you cant really get an A by learning notes you need to be able to solve problems, same with languages, you can learn off an essay but you still have to interpret the question correctly


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    A Levels make students specialise too early.

    I mean one of the big problems in 3rd level at the moment is too much specialisation and the lack of a broad education.

    The Leaving Cert is good because it makes students study a lot of different subjects rather than just the ones they're naturally good at ortake an interest in.

    It produces less narrow minded people. Though, unfortunately, the points system, grinds and rote learning are destroying it somewhat.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    K4t wrote: »
    Yes, ok, hard work etc.

    But, those who aren't naturally intelligent also find it very hard to study for 5 minutes, let alone an hour or two.

    It should not be based just on learning off notes etc.

    Okay; if you aren't going to learn for more than 5 minutes, why should you be allowed into college?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭PurpleFistMixer


    The Leaving Cert has reduced learning to a soulless system of memorising and grinding (not as in taking grinds, but doing repetitive, simple tasks... the maths we do is mostly exercises, not problems that require original thought), with constant focus on the exams at the end.
    If you want to do something in class that isn't directly related to how to answer questions on the leaving cert exam, then it isn't going to happen.
    Unless of course you're either ahead in the course (as the case is for my maths class, we talk about planning maths trips to vegas a lot of the time), or have an "irresponsible" (that is to say, not doing their job right, where the job is to get good marks in the LC, not to encourage learning and thought) teacher, as is the case for one of the English classes in my school. They spend many classes arguing about things like abortion and Tibet, but they've got very little of the course done.

    The Leaving Cert is good because it produces lots of interesting statistics the country can use to compare us, because it has reduced us to numbers attached to a piece of work we've produced over a 2, 3 hour time slot. The anynomity afforded by such a system is both good and bad. The objectivity protects us from teachers who, if asked to give us a grade, and for some reason hate us, can mark us down. However it also means that if for whatever reason, I perform poorly in an exam, the mark I get will not be able to take into account the countless other exams I've aced.
    I think the most logical solution to the problem (and the stress, as we all know) is continuous assessment, or even just breaking the exams between fifth and sixth year. But of course, that's not as neat and easy for the government, and would cost too much and break the system that "works" (though how exactly the Leaving Cert fosters a love of knowledge I do not know), so it's not going to happen any time soon.

    Personally, I'm lucky, because I'm good at "school". I'm an academic type, I'm good at understanding concepts, I love maths, basically I'm a nerd. I'm mediocre at best with sports. However, I'm not good at explaining things to people, and my personal touch is not commendable. I will admit, the Leaving Cert has gotten much better with acknowledging that there are different kinds of intelligences, but still I see girls in school who feel useless because they're terrible at Biology, or whatever. The Leaving Cert (established) makes them think that being good at academics is the most important thing, and if you can't do that, you're resigned to being "thick". However if given the chance, and the opportunity to find it, there's probably something they'd excel at, something which would fulfill them, make them feel worthwhile and useful.
    As I said, it's getting better, if you've got a natural talent for Music, you can wing a lot of that paper with little study. Art is 67.5% based on practical work, though the fact of art history being so important means if you can't write an essay to save your life, you can't get a high grade. There are other practical subjects, but I don't know enough about them to comment. I'd like to see them more widespread and not just confined to vocational schools, but that's down to the individual school, I guess.

    This is getting bleedin' long. I think the Leaving Cert works well in ways, the fact of the diverse subjects (though the necessity to do well in them to get into unrelated courses is debatable), the anonymity and standardisation.. sort of. But at the end of the day, I'm sick of going into school and hearing teachers say things like, "Well, yes what you said is technically correct, but you have to write it this way to get marks..." and "Well if we do these essays, you can learn them off and twist them to fit whatever title comes up on the exam", and etcetera.

    An interesting essay which I just poorly paraphrased can be found here. I'm not sure I agree with it all, but it's a good read.

    Also, in closing: I'd like to see some kind of CSPE subject for leaving cert. I was reading up about the Lisbon Treaty and jaysus if you think there isn't enough in Politics to constitute an entire leaving cert subject, you're well wrong. I think it's (Politics) a subject that gets proposed frequently enough though, and it'd certainly be an interesting one. Bias could be a problem in such a subject, though Religion I believe is handled quite neutrally.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    A Levels make students specialise too early.

    I mean one of the big problems in 3rd level at the moment is too much specialisation and the lack of a broad education.

    The Leaving Cert is good because it makes students study a lot of different subjects rather than just the ones they're naturally good at ortake an interest in.

    It produces less narrow minded people. Though, unfortunately, the points system, grinds and rote learning are destroying it somewhat.

    Completely agree. I was having this discussion just yesterday; the Irish education system will not make you a specialist in anything but it will give you the best range of skills; that you will need when you decide what you want to specialize in. Then its simply a matter of doing: usually through work experience.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    If you want to do something in class that isn't directly related to how to answer questions on the leaving cert exam, then it isn't going to happen.
    Unless of course you're either ahead in the course (as the case is for my maths class, we talk about planning maths trips to vegas a lot of the time), or have an "irresponsible" (that is to say, not doing their job right, where the job is to get good marks in the LC, not to encourage learning and thought) teacher, as is the case for one of the English classes in my school. They spend many classes arguing about things like abortion and Tibet, but they've got very little of the course done.

    So, you hate that you have to focus on your exams; but also hate it when a teacher brings you off topic for an existential debate? Make up your mind. To be fair there is plenty of time in life for existential debate; only 2 years to prepare you for being processed by the Leaving Cert.
    I perform poorly in an exam, the mark I get will not be able to take into account the countless other exams I've aced.

    Which would have its own problems. Teachers issuing simple exams for one. Even in college: our continuous exams seem to be handed to us half the time. It does not reflect our knowledge of the skill much at all.
    I think the most logical solution to the problem (and the stress, as we all know) is continuous assessment, or even just breaking the exams between fifth and sixth year. But of course, that's not as neat and easy for the government, and would cost too much and break the system that "works" (though how exactly the Leaving Cert fosters a love of knowledge I do not know), so it's not going to happen any time soon.

    Don't vocational schools already do this?
    Art is 67.5% based on practical work, though the fact of art history being so important means if you can't write an essay to save your life, you can't get a high grade. There are other practical subjects, but I don't know enough about them to comment. I'd like to see them more widespread and not just confined to vocational schools, but that's down to the individual school, I guess.

    Have to agree with you there on the Art. However, its very uncommon in this country that a college course in Art will not have Art History in it. so it is important that you can do it.

    Also if you really need the extra (30 points is it?) or B3 that comes with having a good Art History component; then you are aiming for a college course which will require those skills of you, anyway.
    "Well, yes what you said is technically correct, but you have to write it this way to get marks..." and "Well if we do these essays, you can learn them off and twist them to fit whatever title comes up on the exam", and etcetera.

    Sounds exactly like programming. In C++ theres usually about 3 or 4 different ways to do something. However, you are expected to never use most of those methods. For most reasons its because they tend to confuse the code (in the case of the 'goto' command especially... google that) or because the company you will be hired by will require a coding standard be adhered to: for example you have to name your vairables a certain way; because if you dont it just confuses the next person after you and that can lead to a lot of problems when you are making software, where 50 programmers all have to bring their code together into one project and have it all work in unison.

    So imagine how hard it is for an examiner to have to correct 50 papers with 50 different "Standards" of how they cross their Ts dot their I's and make their 5s look like an S? You're told to do it one way because it promotes clarity.

    And theres nothing wrong with learning Templates. They can be applied to oh so much.
    Also, in closing: I'd like to see some kind of CSPE subject for leaving cert. I was reading up about the Lisbon Treaty and jaysus if you think there isn't enough in Politics to constitute an entire leaving cert subject, you're well wrong. I think it's (Politics) a subject that gets proposed frequently enough though, and it'd certainly be an interesting one. Bias could be a problem in such a subject, though Religion I believe is handled quite neutrally.

    Not unreasonable so long as its elective. However, the current state of the JC CSPE course is a complete and utter joke. However if you wish to go on and do political theory and education, please, come back and draft up a proper leaving cert CSPE course for everyone behind you.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,673 ✭✭✭mahamageehad


    Overheal wrote: »
    Don't vocational schools already do this?

    ?? Whats that about?? :confused:

    Anyways jst throwing my cap into this debate...
    I do think the leaving is too focused on academicness..(if thats a word!!) What Id like to see would be more "project" work... In my ideal leaving cert at least 25% of each subject would be done before the exam. I know you can do a project in Ag Science, Geography, Home Ec..im sure there's more but I dont know them. You also have you orals and practicals eg. in art and music. I'd love to have some bit of maths out of the way though before the LC and the same with english.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭PurpleFistMixer


    Overheal wrote: »
    So, you hate that you have to focus on your exams; but also hate it when a teacher brings you off topic for an existential debate? Make up your mind. To be fair there is plenty of time in life for existential debate; only 2 years to prepare you for being processed by the Leaving Cert.
    Notice that I put "irresponsible" in quotation marks. I'll admit I'm in two minds about it. The logical side of me says that he should concentrate on the course, and that his students will not do well. The human side of me says that it should not be like this, that this system is wrong, that what he is doing is right. But ultimately, what he's doing is failing the system, be it as it is flawed, and until the system is fixed/adjusted (maybe never but I can hope), he needs to work within it.


    Overheal wrote: »
    Which would have its own problems. Teachers issuing simple exams for one. Even in college: our continuous exams seem to be handed to us half the time. It does not reflect our knowledge of the skill much at all.
    Then perhaps more standards need to be put in place to ensure the exams given are difficult enough, or your college should reassess the level of degree it gives at the end. : p

    Overheal wrote: »
    Don't vocational schools already do this?
    The Leaving Cert Applied course uses continuous assessment (and it's not rsetricted to vocational schools; my school does it), but the LCA doesn't qualify you for any university courses, as far as I'm aware. It can get you into insititutes of further education though, and senior colleges etc., and it is an example of one of the steps to make the education system more friendly to non-academics. I have to say I don't know an awful lot about it, despite about 15 people in my year doing it, it's all kept quite mysterious.

    Overheal wrote: »
    Have to agree with you there on the Art. However, its very uncommon in this country that a college course in Art will not have Art History in it. so it is important that you can do it.

    Also if you really need the extra (30 points is it?) or B3 that comes with having a good Art History component; then you are aiming for a college course which will require those skills of you, anyway.
    True. Art is a messy one anyway, because you don't necessarily have to go to art college to become an artist. I just think it's a shame to see people who are excellent at art getting a mediocre mark in the end just because of art history.

    Overheal wrote: »
    Sounds exactly like programming. In C++ theres usually about 3 or 4 different ways to do something. However, you are expected to never use most of those methods. For most reasons its because they tend to confuse the code (in the case of the 'goto' command especially... google that) or because the company you will be hired by will require a coding standard be adhered to: for example you have to name your vairables a certain way; because if you dont it just confuses the next person after you and that can lead to a lot of problems when you are making software, where 50 programmers all have to bring their code together into one project and have it all work in unison.

    So imagine how hard it is for an examiner to have to correct 50 papers with 50 different "Standards" of how they cross their Ts dot their I's and make their 5s look like an S? You're told to do it one way because it promotes clarity.
    My point was that the teachers talk about nothing but exams.

    Though, as I am not doing programming, I still think that to lose marks because you phrased something differently is wrong. For example we have a french assistant from Rouen, many things she has told us are marked as wrong, despite as being perfectly legitimate French as coming from a native speaker, because they're not how the department of education do things.
    Overheal wrote: »
    And theres nothing wrong with learning Templates. They can be applied to oh so much.
    Learning the structure of an essay is acceptable (hell there's only so many things they can ask in the Comparative), but actually learning off chunks of text you barely understand? And being graded as if you can communicate well in that language? That's flawed, and wrong.

    Overheal wrote: »
    Not unreasonable so long as its elective. However, the current state of the JC CSPE course is a complete and utter joke. However if you wish to go on and do political theory and education, please, come back and draft up a proper leaving cert CSPE course for everyone behind you.
    I'd rather do maths, but maybe someone else will answer the call. I'd like to see the CSPE course upgraded to something real. JC students have the time to learn basic important things, but CSPE is regarded as such a joke that nobody learns anything.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,729 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Then perhaps more standards need to be put in place to ensure the exams given are difficult enough, or your college should reassess the level of degree it gives at the end.

    They give us simple tests; gruelling projects ;)

    Standards that might be applied to, say, the Leaving Cert? To ensure an appropiate level of difficulty? Eh? Eh?
    the LCA doesn't qualify you for any university courses, as far as I'm aware.

    Must qualify you for some. Again, the style of learning in LCA would differ from the LC which is what most college courses would cater to - so I guess it makes sense.
    it is an example of one of the steps to make the education system more friendly to non-academics.

    Indeedy-do. Colleges are academic institutes though. At the end of the day you have to remember that.
    Though, as I am not doing programming, I still think that to lose marks because you phrased something differently is wrong. For example we have a french assistant from Rouen, many things she has told us are marked as wrong, despite as being perfectly legitimate French as coming from a native speaker, because they're not how the department of education do things.

    On more than one occassions we (students) have bent the rules of the college coding standards in order to perform our work. It does prove that sometimes your way isnt the best way or even the right way. You have to remember the examiner in question has to follow the department standards, not the assistant from Rouen.
    Learning the structure of an essay is acceptable (hell there's only so many things they can ask in the Comparative), but actually learning off chunks of text you barely understand? And being graded as if you can communicate well in that language? That's flawed, and wrong.

    Ohhh...I agree with you there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    I think the most logical solution to the problem (and the stress, as we all know) is continuous assessment, or even just breaking the exams between fifth and sixth year.
    That might suit you, it certainly wouldn't have suited me.

    The stress of constantly having to preform well in every exam you do in 5th and 6th year vs. learning at your own pace and just making sure you do your best over 2 weeks atthe end of 2 years. I know which I prefer.

    And Jesus, I can't imagine what teachers would be like given a continuous assessment system. If you think they're bad for only teaching how to do well in exams and giving you notes to learn off as it is, think of what it'd be like if you had important exams regularly....
    Personally, I'm lucky, because I'm good at "school". I'm an academic type, I'm good at understanding concepts, I love maths, basically I'm a nerd. I'm mediocre at best with sports. However, I'm not good at explaining things to people, and my personal touch is not commendable. I will admit, the Leaving Cert has gotten much better with acknowledging that there are different kinds of intelligences, but still I see girls in school who feel useless because they're terrible at Biology, or whatever. The Leaving Cert (established) makes them think that being good at academics is the most important thing, and if you can't do that, you're resigned to being "thick". However if given the chance, and the opportunity to find it, there's probably something they'd excel at, something which would fulfill them, make them feel worthwhile and useful.
    We can't let everyone into college... It's a harsh but true fact of life that there are some types of intelligences which are more useful than others.

    I mean I totally understand what you're saying about there probably being something out there for everyone to excel in. Perhaps there should be more opportunities for people to find something they're good at in school. But I don't really see the relevence to the LC, which is a tool for evaluating whether someone is academically good enough to go to college.
    "Well, yes what you said is technically correct, but you have to write it this way to get marks..." and "Well if we do these essays, you can learn them off and twist them to fit whatever title comes up on the exam", and etcetera.
    You don't have to listen to that though. If you're a weak student then you can inflate your grades with such techniques, however, I got above average to high marks in English, Irish and History and never learned off any notes on poetry or essays someone else wrote. Have faith in your competancy to express your own opinion (something which I think many students are afraid of, and which isn't actively encouraged by teachers) and you'll probably find yourself doing quite well.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭PurpleFistMixer


    Overheal wrote: »
    They give us simple tests; gruelling projects ;)

    Standards that might be applied to, say, the Leaving Cert? To ensure an appropiate level of difficulty? Eh? Eh?
    Yes, within a framework of continuous assessment. : p
    Overheal wrote: »
    Must qualify you for some. Again, the style of learning in LCA would differ from the LC which is what most college courses would cater to - so I guess it makes sense.
    I have not yet seen a university which accepts LCA for any kind of matriculation. It qualifies you for colleges of further education and senior colleges though, which can eventually lead to higher level degrees etc. if you can link in to universities, it's just a longer path. I do take what you mean though about college being an academic place. But what kind of higher qualification options do we have for those whose skills lie outside the academic spectrum?

    Overheal wrote: »
    On more than one occassions we (students) have bent the rules of the college coding standards in order to perform our work. It does prove that sometimes your way isnt the best way or even the right way. You have to remember the examiner in question has to follow the department standards, not the assistant from Rouen.
    True. The marking schemes only allow for so many deviations, but it doesn't make it any more right.
    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    That might suit you, it certainly wouldn't have suited me.

    The stress of constantly having to preform well in every exam you do in 5th and 6th year vs. learning at your own pace and just making sure you do your best over 2 weeks atthe end of 2 years. I know which I prefer.

    And Jesus, I can't imagine what teachers would be like given a continuous assessment system. If you think they're bad for only teaching how to do well in exams and giving you notes to learn off as it is, think of what it'd be like if you had important exams regularly....
    I'll admit, the continuous pressure can be a little bad. But I think even if the exams were to be split between summer of fifth year and summer of sixth year it would be good. For example, in fifth year your Irish exam could be based on grammar and comprehension, then in sixth year you'd be examined on literature and writing. Of course, the instant problem with that is that then for that year you concentrate on nothing else, and you go insane from the boredom. But there must be some way to make it work. There's too much uncertainty regarding the summer exams. Three hours are given too much importance and it makes people too inclined to freak out over it.
    If the exams were regular, maybe the ridiculous amount of importance they're given would be somewhat diminished.
    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    We can't let everyone into college... It's a harsh but true fact of life that there are some types of intelligences which are more useful than others.

    I mean I totally understand what you're saying about there probably being something out there for everyone to excel in. Perhaps there should be more opportunities for people to find something they're good at in school. But I don't really see the relevence to the LC, which is a tool for evaluating whether someone is academically good enough to go to college.
    To say that some intelligences are more useful... I don't know about that. Academics are useful, yes, but we need artists and sportspeople (if that is a word) and carers and other things, surely such things have as important a role as anything else, if they're contributing to society. That's a little off the topic though, I guess.

    And about getting into college... yes, well I understand that we can't let everyone in, but ideally everyone can go somewhere to pursue their interests, if they so desire. I guess what I'm saying is we just need to cater for the fact that people are different, and as such the LC must be adjusted accordingly.
    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    You don't have to listen to that though. If you're a weak student then you can inflate your grades with such techniques, however, I got above average to high marks in English, Irish and History and never learned off any notes on poetry or essays someone else wrote. Have faith in your competancy to express your own opinion (something which I think many students are afraid of, and which isn't actively encouraged by teachers) and you'll probably find yourself doing quite well.
    I can't just walk out of class. I know these are techniques used to try increase grades, they're just horrible, I think. My Irish class all got a "Shortcuts to Success: The Aiste" book and it has a formula which it applies ad nauseum. Something like "Statement, filler of nice Irish phrase, seanfhocal, maybe another point, more filler". If you read any of the essays they constructed like this they're completely disjointed, random seanfhocail thrown in all over the place that had nothing to do with the essay. It's a bit of an extreme example, I guess, but it just demonstrates this mentality of "give them what they want" instead of, you know, "write an essay about a topic".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Three hours are given too much importance and it makes people too inclined to freak out over it.
    If the exams were regular, maybe the ridiculous amount of importance they're given would be somewhat diminished.
    Well yeah, but you could equally say that calmness and composure is something that should be rewarded.

    Changing the system won't really do much IMO. The LC will still be as soulless as before, it'll just cater slightly more to a different type of person.
    Academics are useful, yes, but we need artists and sportspeople (if that is a word) and carers and other things, surely such things have as important a role as anything else, if they're contributing to society.
    Well, most schools have sports teams and getting into art college generally is heavily based on a portfolio you submit beforehand.

    I'm very in favour of the idea of producing more well rounded individuals rather than saying that some people are good at some things, others are good at other things and that we should let them concentrate on that area which they are good at. I think everyone should play a sport, everyone should study a broad range of academic subjects and everyone should have some outlet for creativity like music or poetry.

    I don't think the LC should be changed, but students should be made be involved in more extra curricular activities.
    I can't just walk out of class.
    But you can stare into space or draw cartoons. ;)

    (Or God forbid, study...)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭PurpleFistMixer


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Well yeah, but you could equally say that calmness and composure is something that should be rewarded.
    True that. If people could just learn to be calm and confident going into exams, it'd help their grades much more than trying to learn all the tricks and hints in the book.
    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Changing the system won't really do much IMO. The LC will still be as soulless as before, it'll just cater slightly more to a different type of person.
    I can dream...
    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    I'm very in favour of the idea of producing more well rounded individuals rather than saying that some people are good at some things, others are good at other things and that we should let them concentrate on that area which they are good at. I think everyone should play a sport, everyone should study a broad range of academic subjects and everyone should have some outlet for creativity like music or poetry.
    Yeah, this is true, this is how I disagree with earlier essay I linked. Just because a person is good at one thing, it doesn't mean they can't be good at others, and having various disciplines can be beneficial. I still think it's important to find something to excel at, though, if only for personal fulfillment.
    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    I don't think the LC should be changed, but students should be made be involved in more extra curricular activities.
    The problem is when you're in sixth year, so much emphasis is put on study etc., that anything extra curricular is dropped. One teacher commented the other day that sixth years shouldn't be allowed to attent school sports matches because they're too busy. If those activities (well, not attending matches, but things which aren't necessarily related to studying) were incorporated more into our curriculum, maybe we'd have to do them. (Though, as far as I know the English course has many books as required reading, but as they're not examined as it were, they're completely ignored.)
    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    But you can stare into space or draw cartoons. ;)
    You should see my french pages. French has helped me with art more than any other class...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,397 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Overheal wrote: »


    Must qualify you for some. Again, the style of learning in LCA would differ from the LC which is what most college courses would cater to - so I guess it makes sense.


    No the LCA does not meet the entry requirements for any university or institute of technology. Subjects are taught and assessed on a modular basis, and students gain credits for their work as they go. There is a terminal exam in each subject with it's own exam timetable, but the final exams are only worth about 30% of the total cedit for the module. Students credits are totalled and based on their score they are awarded a distinction, merit or pass in the LCA. It is aimed at students who are not considered 'academic' and would struggle to achieve by the normal route. Students can use it to enrol in Post Leaving Cert courses and from there apply for college courses throught the Higher Eduction Links Scheme.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    As regards CSPE, it would want to be harder than the JC. They would probably have to study past political systems and political ideologies etc. Otherwise it would be unfair if it was too easy.

    JC Cspe ist ein Joke!!! Me and my friends had a bet on the day to see who could finish the first. I did it in 27 minutes (maybe quicker but I wasnt allowed out), won my 2 euro and 40 cent. Then got an A in September,


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 784 ✭✭✭Peleus


    I think the one way of solving the problem is getting rid of compulsary subjects. I think we should be able to chose to do maths, irish and English.

    I like maths and english but if i could, i would change irish to geography or accounting or anything that i may use properly in future. I don't think students should be foced to do these at leaving cert level because some people simply cant get their head around these subjects.

    They should be compulsary up to Junior Cert and lets say at least one of these three to be compulsary at LC level.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Peleus wrote: »
    I don't think students should be foced to do these at leaving cert level because some people simply cant get their head around these subjects.
    So? Then they're not as suitable for college as someone who can.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 773 ✭✭✭Cokehead Mother


    Peleus wrote: »
    I don't think students should be foced to do these at leaving cert level because some people simply cant get their head around these subjects.

    Do you really think people being allowed to drop subjects purely because they're crap at them is a good idea? Seems counter-productive to me. :confused:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,397 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Peleus wrote: »
    I think the one way of solving the problem is getting rid of compulsary subjects. I think we should be able to chose to do maths, irish and English.


    Because literacy and numeracy are not at all necessary in the real world. To suggest giving up any of them after the junior cert is ludicrous. Literacy is bad enough with the advent of text messaging without suggesting English/Irish should be optional. Don't get me started on how useful maths is.

    It was mentioned elsewhere in this thread that CSPE should be a leaving cert subject. Leaving that debate aside, in it's current form CSPE is not taken seriously because it is a common level subject and there is no follow on at Leaving Cert level, so there is no great incentive to do well in it ( although I do acknowledge that many students get top grades in it). What is the point when it will be not taken at LC level.

    Can you imagine what it would be like if English, Irish and Maths were not compulsory for LC. You would certainly have a cohort of students who would be of the opinion that 'English/Irish/Maths doesn't matter, I don't have to do it for my Leaving Cert, so no need to kill myself for the Junior Cert' which in some cases would lead to an even poorer standard in those subject areas.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Well putting Maths and English aside, Irish should definetely be optional - like it or not, the language is going to die out anyway (and personally, I don't approve of this). Keeping it compulsory is raising a generation who utterly loathe it and will be even less likely to use it in the future, and in the meantime is throwing up another stupid barrier to perfectly able students getting into college. The reason no one wants to do Irish is because it has virtually no practical use after school, aside from studying an Irish related subject in 3rd level, so it should clearly be an option for those who wish to take such courses, and save the rest of us one of the biggest LC pains in the ass...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,397 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Well putting Maths and English aside, Irish should definetely be optional - like it or not, the language is going to die out anyway (and personally, I don't approve of this). Keeping it compulsory is raising a generation who utterly loathe it and will be even less likely to use it in the future, and in the meantime is throwing up another stupid barrier to perfectly able students getting into college. The reason no one wants to do Irish is because it has virtually no practical use after school, aside from studying an Irish related subject in 3rd level, so it should clearly be an option for those who wish to take such courses, and save the rest of us one of the biggest LC pains in the ass...



    It's probably going to be around as long as both English and Irish have equal status in the country.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 923 ✭✭✭Chunky Monkey


    Whatever about Irish being optional, considering the government's aim, I think it is taught very poorly. More emphasis should be placed on the spoken language. I would have had more interest in it if that had been the case.

    Regarding the leaving cert, it may work for some, giving them 'broader skills' or whatever it is people are saying. But for me, I hated it. I was left itching to learn more in my chemistry and biology classes and dreading going to Irish, French etc.

    I think advanced classes should be offered. Even with a more specialised system in the UK with the A-levels, they are starting to offer this over there. Yes very well there are vocational schools and the applied leaving cert but what about for the people on the other side of the spectrum, the people who prefer the academic subjects but are forced to stick within the current, fairly pathetic curriculum because, thanks to their other subjects and the points system, they don't have the time to take their learning further.

    If they can offer a vocational and a more traditional leaving cert, they should be able to offer a third option.


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