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GF Seeing her ex, opinions
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23-04-2008 7:14pm#1
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I don't talk to my ex (of 4.5 years) since we broke up - personal choice - my view is its the past and its time to move on not look back
And thats your choice and perfectly fine for you. I would not choose to leave someone I had been close to for 4 / 5 years out of my life (unless of course he had done something rotten to me). People are generally black or white on this subject. I see nothing wrong with what she is doing. She is being open and honest and the only issue here is your insecurity. She is treating her relationship with her ex in an adult manner and to be applauded for it.
You have no need to worry. Just be glad that you have a gf whose ex wants to stay friends with - its a compliment to her really
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭
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I agree.All this kind of stuff sounds really immature to me.
That was my point exactly, as you say it'll look silly.Dont worry about standing beside her and giving signals etc because that kind of stuff will be painfully obvious and make you look silly tbh.
All true if he's a decent judge of this stuff.Just be natural and let her be natural .. that way you will get a real understanding of their relationship. If they are indeed just friends and dont want anything more then the pressure will be on them to make you feel comfortable and secure .. you shouldnt have to worry about that.
True. He has to try and ease off on the fear first though. Plus we're all assuming her ex wants to meet him. He may not, which is quite possible. It's also possible she doesn't want the OP to meet her ex. I wonder has she asked the OP.If they dont make you feel comfortable and him or her are behaving in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable or threatened then you need to revaluate how you feel about their relationship and you have to talk to her about how you feel. But you aint going to feel any better or get any closure until you meet him so just bite the bullet and do it.
If that's how you operate and you can pull that off, that's good and as you say the maturity thing is a big part of it. It depends on the individual though. TBH personally with my significant exes, I would be more like the OP. I would be there for them if they're in trouble, I would obviously have some fond memories, but I'm not the friends with exes type. Certainly in my life anyway when I have been, something has happened to confuse the friendship.I became best friends with one of my gfs exes. 6 years later me and that gf broke up and I am still best of friends with both of them. As long as everybody is mature and have nothing to hide then there is nothing to stop everybody from being friends.
Again it's down to the people. Playboy would act one way and I another. The OP needs to figure out the best for him and his realtionship. TBH I reckon Playboy's option is the better way than mine, if you can pull it off and if both your girlfriend and her ex are on the same page as you.topper75 wrote:Woah!
Irony of the Day!
Well it was years ago, but yea on one occasion I can think of it was insecurity in a roundabout way on my part, mostly even back then it was out of simple irritation more than anything, or teaching the guy a "lesson" egotistically enough. You live and learn though. I can't imagine it would register now and if it did, letting it go would be the preferred option. Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59144
Good advice.Remember not to get sucked into "women sneaky lawyer tricks"
More to the point make her feel like you're the best thing that's ever happened to her. A far better bet, because what she feels about you is what will keep her there. What you feel about her only plugs into that. How many men and women have felt like their partner is the best thing to ever happen to them, tell them that and show them that, only to have them leave? How they feel about you is what's important to them at the very back of it all.Be open with her, treat her like a princess, make her feel like she's the best thing that has happened to you.
Good advice again.She kinda needs to know that you feel mildly insecure, but to do this early in a relationship can be a killer blow.
and you are comfortable with it. Before that point, go with the flow but establish boundaries around what is right for you, for yourself as much as her.Do meet the bloke at some point i would do this at some point, when she is comfortable with it.
Which at this point you have to take her word for. The difference between exes who are mates and mates, is there was a romantic element(well duh...The good thing is she finished with him, a little saving grace.
They are mates now,). That does change the dynamic. How much it changes it, time will tell. I do think that certain situations are more problematic than others. All hanging out together like Playboy and his ex is cool and indeed welcome as everything is out in the open. Doing things, coupley things with exes without the current squeeze in play can bring up old feelings, especially in down patches in the current relationship. That's more likely to end in "complications"
Agreed again. Three for three. Again I would add make sure she treats you right as well.Topper has given you the best advice treat her right then you know you've no fears!Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Sorry about that, didn't mean to.I take your points beautiation, but with respect I think you're missing my point a little too.With one exception in your post, it's all about what she's losing not the ex. She gets to keep the friend and have the OP. This is affecting the ex(as the she has told the OP) and clearly also the OP or he wouldn't be here.
Well I would agree with the whole having cake and eating it argument if she was in any way leading her ex on. But she seems to have him under no illusions, he knows full well that it's over and that she just wants to be friends, so I don't see how there's anything wrong with her wanting to keep in contact under those terms. So why can't she keep the friend and have the OP as well?
If the ex is having trouble getting over her and still fancies her, that's his business. But as there's no evidence he is trying anything on here, it doesn't mean that his friendship is anything less than genuine and innocent. The fact he has feelings for her isn't enough on it's own make it wrong for them to be friends as long as he has it well and truly under control. You say I don't mention what the ex would be losing, well ok I will now; he'd probably lose one of his closest confidants and friends over a long period of his life.
As for the OP, I think a little jealousy is natural in this scenario so it's understandable that he's here. However I don't believe this jealousy is something that gives him the right to destroy this friendship, because a cool analysis of the facts shows that nobody has done anything wrong to provoke it. His gf is communicating the situation openly to him and unless he really thinks it's reasonable for him to pick and choose his gf's friends then I really do think that what problem there is lies with him. I especially think that if the OP isn't even up for meeting him he's the one who's showing an unwillingness to resolve the situation in the best possible way, that of them all just being friends.
Well as I say, if he can control it, and there's no reson to think he can't, then any spark he holds isn't a problem.Also what you write is all cool if the ex is not holding a torch for her. He is as the OP points out. You also suggest that her sexual spark may be gone, his may not be. Probably isn't what with the whole torch holding goin on(plus I've seen "sparks" come back after longer times). Whole different dynamic and does smack more of cake and eat it than otherwise.My personal position is that when I split with someone and it's not mutual, I make that decision fully in the knowledge that any friendship we may have had could well be lost because of my decision. I can't expect them to be rejected as a lover and future with me but take what is essentially a downgrade to friendship if they're still in love with me. I accept that as part of the process. I'm thinking of them not just me. If down the line that friendship is restored after enough water has passed under the bridge then cool. In any case I've rekindled friendships, true friendships after many years absence. It's usually a sign of their value
But do you not think that you may be making assumptions for other people based on your own feelings? I assume that when you presume your exes will not still want to bge your friends if they still love you your basis for thinking this is that you personally could not be happy only being friends, with no hope of it being more, with someone who you loved and rejected you. Well, I know that I could. I think that's the fundamental difference in our opinions here Wibbs, that I think that true friendship can come close to being as important as a true relationship, whereas you maybe do not (sorry if that's presumptious and I'm wrong!). But whatever your or my feelings are, the important point is that the ex obviously does consider that friendship immediately after a relationship can work, and so does the gf. And as their friendship is about the two of them, then it's their decision to make. As it's only friendship amd it doesn't intrude on the OP's relationship, I still can't see how it's his business to interfere with it. As I say, the twinge of jealousy is understandable, but I honestly do think it's j.ust one of those things and he should just try to meet these guy so he can get to know him and hopefully stop seeing him as a rival.
It's great that you're good at rebuilding your old friendships, but I personally would not be happy at all to lose the great friendships I have with a number of my exes even if I knew I could get them back in a couple of years time. Life is short, we never know what's around the corner, everyone should be free to rejoice in the company of the people they care for while they can. And if the OP's gf is happy knowing her ex, isn't that what you want OP, her to be happy?0 -
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Well don't let it happen again or there'll be trouble....:Dbeautiation wrote: »Sorry about that, didn't mean to.
OK we can establish this much. The OP is a bit freaked about this. The ex is not over the OP's girlfriend. The OP's grilfriend wants to keep the ex as a friend.Well I would agree with the whole having cake and eating it argument if she was in any way leading her ex on.
Telling him it's over is a whole heap away from him knowing it's over. A country mile indeed. He may not be even hearing it's over and may be still hoping that he can get back with her, by being her "friend". She may not be leading him on directly, but her continued contact when he's emotionally vulnerable may well amount to the same thing. Stick around here for any length of time and you'll ahve men and women asking what to do from the exes point of view in very similar circumstances. The OP's girlfriend is being the exes "friend" so she doesn't lose the advantage of his friendship. Both have ulterior motives. Motives hardly conducive to true friendship.But she seems to have him under no illusions, he knows full well that it's over and that she just wants to be friends, so I don't see how there's anything wrong with her wanting to keep in contact under those terms.
Because it's upsetting the "friend" as he's not over her, which she must know as she has told the OP. The OP has never met the ex so all his info is coming from the girlfriend. The ex may even have been more pleading and she's not telling the OP as it would upset him. Add into this that it's getting the OP edgy to boot.So why can't she keep the friend and have the OP as well?
By comparison she's fine. She may get the odd pang of guilt etc, but her world hasn't changed or is being effected to nearly the same extent. She gets the new guy and romance and friendship and she gets to have the ex hanging around being attentive too. If that's not cake and eat it I don't know what is.
Eeeeh it's her business too, if she claims to love him as a friend. She is prolonging his pain by wanting to be his "friend". The frienship at this stage is at cross purposes. While ultimately people in my life are autonomous beings, I will try to avoid making their life worse by my actions. It's called consideration.If the ex is having trouble getting over her and still fancies her, that's his business.
Ok we know the ex has told her he doesn't want to hear about her new life, or meet the OP as it would be upsetting to him. We know that it wasn't his idea to split and that upset him. That means the friendship can''t be "innocent" as a huge chunk of her life is off limits and the ex is quite likely to be hanging around for more than friendship. Where is the balance in that? There's precious little. He is still trying to work through the breakup.But as there's no evidence he is trying anything on here, it doesn't mean that his friendship is anything less than genuine and innocent.
It will prolong his healing. He's topping up his drug every time he meets her. He needs emotional cold turkey and distance to heal.The fact he has feelings for her isn't enough on it's own make it wrong for them to be friends as long as he has it well and truly under control.
Yes, if and when he has fully absorbed the change in relationship. He hasn't yetYou say I don't mention what the ex would be losing, well ok I will now; he'd probably lose one of his closest confidants and friends over a long period of his life.
Honestly that would be great in an ideal worldtm, but human nature and passions tend to get in the way.As for the OP, I think a little jealousy is natural in this scenario so it's understandable that he's here. However I don't believe this jealousy is something that gives him the right to destroy this friendship, because a cool analysis of the facts shows that nobody has done anything wrong to provoke it. His gf is communicating the situation openly to him and unless he really thinks it's reasonable for him to pick and choose his gf's friends then I really do think that what problem there is lies with him.
Eh the ex doesn't want to meet the OP either. It's messy. Both don't want to meet the other out of fear. One a fear of facing his "replacement", the other out of fear more may be going on.I especially think that if the OP isn't even up for meeting him he's the one who's showing an unwillingness to resolve the situation in the best possible way, that of them all just being friends.
Yes it is. You are really not getting the empathy dealio with this ex bloke. It's not a problem for her is what you're saying. So long as he doesn't attempt legover maneuvers then it's ok. She won't feel pressured. What about his feelings for her. What if he's still hanging on to hope with each encounter/text/phonecall. How in hades name is that even approaching the shores of healthy?Well as I say, if he can control it, and there's no reson to think he can't, then any spark he holds isn't a problem.
Yes and no. I do take your point, but I think I would ahve been a little more like you back in the day to coin a phrase. I think I would be like I am now, mainly through experience and looking at people on both sides of this. We can only ever be general about human nature, but there are things I've observed.But do you not think that you may be making assumptions for other people based on your own feelings?
Not quite. Personally it would depend entirely on the seriousness of the relationship and the manner of the breakup. If it was a overnight move on to someone else, then don't let the door hit your arse on the way out love. Game over. If it was a cooling off on my part then I would try to make it as easy for her to heal if she still thought tehre was hope. If it was a cooling off on her part, then I might be bloody upset over it, but after the initial pleading which generally accompanies these thingsI assume that when you presume your exes will not still want to bge your friends if they still love you your basis for thinking this is that you personally could not be happy only being friends, with no hope of it being more, with someone who you loved and rejected you. I would let her go. If she pulled the lets be friends speech on me she would get short shrift until such times as I was ready. By being ready I mean being able to meet her new love, being happy for her that she has one, listening about all aspects of her life and supporting her in whatever venture she chooses. You know, friendship. I would extend the same to one I dumped. She may plead for a second chance, which is usually followed by I can't lose you as a friend. When the wound is still open, the latter is very very often(if not always) a trojan horse for the former.
Not totally wrong in fairness. I think lovers to friends is a downgrade (and I have friends for 20+ years). With a lover the future together the possibilities of family and kids etc are there. Your romantic partner after your parents and siblings is pretty much the most important relationship you can have. It is an entirely different(and higher) dynamic of intimacy and connection. I value friendship very highly. Very. And I would be friends with any long term love, but there is something extra involved that is lost when it splits. The time needed to understand and get over that loss varies, but it's not helped by hope fostered by the dumper.Well, I know that I could. I think that's the fundamental difference in our opinions here Wibbs, that I think that true friendship can come close to being as important as a true relationship, whereas you maybe do not (sorry if that's presumptious and I'm wrong!).
No the important point is the ex doesn't. He is being friends to keep the hope going. It's as plain as the nose on your face. All you seem to be getting is her take on it.But whatever your or my feelings are, the important point is that the ex obviously does consider that friendship immediately after a relationship can work, and so does the gf.
I agree. I will say that as she is the one with advantage as she is(hopefully) over the ex, she is the one with more clarity, so she should be the one to tone down the connection to help him heal. He won't as he still hangs out for hope.And as their friendship is about the two of them, then it's their decision to make.
Again the OP doesn't particularly want to meet the ex and the ex has said quite clearly that he doesn't want to meet or even hear about the OP. This is very messy.As it's only friendship amd it doesn't intrude on the OP's relationship, I still can't see how it's his business to interfere with it. As I say, the twinge of jealousy is understandable, but I honestly do think it's j.ust one of those things and he should just try to meet these guy so he can get to know him and hopefully stop seeing him as a rival.
That's my point. if a year away from a friendship, screws the friendship, I don't consider it one frankly.It's great that you're good at rebuilding your old friendships, but I personally would not be happy at all to lose the great friendships I have with a number of my exes even if I knew I could get them back in a couple of years time.
Sorry to harp at this, you are missing the point by a country mile. OK. Forget the OP's girlfriend for a moment.Life is short, we never know what's around the corner, everyone should be free to rejoice in the company of the people they care for while they can. And if the OP's gf is happy knowing her ex, isn't that what you want OP, her to be happy?
The ex is unhappy with the change of relationship. Naturally.
He is highly likely holding out hope.
Her continued regular contact(esp in coupley things like drinks) is hindering his healing.
If she truly cares for him, then she would see that and put on hold her self centered need to continue the friendship until he was more healed and moved on. That's the ex. The OP is worried about this connection with such a long term ex and is upsetting him. If he does bring this up and she continues as before, because she wants to maintain the status quo, then yes I think she is thinking more of herself than is healthy for two guys she claims to love and care about(albeit in different ways).
I am not suggesting that she never speaks to the ex just cos the OP may get his knickers in a bunch. Not at all. I'm just suggesting she needs to let him go until he's in a better position emotionally to deal with a friendship. I can't see how that's a difficult thing to do.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Lol well judging from the conclusion you reach in your last paragraph of this means I should probably watch my back!Well don't let it happen again or there'll be trouble....
I'm sorry I just really don't follow/agree with the ulterior motives part. I don't follow how the gf not wanting to lose his friendship counts as an ulterior motive, and I don't agree that we can assume the ex does not just want to be friends. I know we're going round in circles now but I just don't consider the fact that he doesn't want to talk about her romantic life as proof that he's after more than friendship. Maybe she gives him support on a whole different level, we just can't know; the meaning of what friendship is is different in each individual pair of friends, that's what makes it so great. In the last couple of lines above you're speculating that the ex may have tried it on with no proof at all, the OP says he trusts the gf so why would we assume she's hiding the truth from him? It just seems to me you're giving this guy no benefit of the doubt at all, and assuming he would try to destabalise the gf's happiness when there's no proof at all.Telling him it's over is a whole heap away from him knowing it's over. A country mile indeed. He may not be even hearing it's over and may be still hoping that he can get back with her, by being her "friend". She may not be leading him on directly, but her continued contact when he's emotionally vulnerable may well amount to the same thing. Stick around here for any length of time and you'll ahve men and women asking what to do from the exes point of view in very similar circumstances. The OP's girlfriend is being the exes "friend" so she doesn't lose the advantage of his friendship. Both have ulterior motives. Motives hardly conducive to true friendship. Because it's upsetting the "friend" as he's not over her, which she must know as she has told the OP. The OP has never met the ex so all his info is coming from the girlfriend. The ex may even have been more pleading and she's not telling the OP as it would upset him. Add into this that it's getting the OP edgy to boot.
It comes back to your worst presumptions about this guy tbh. I read the above as: "She wants to have a boyfriend and a friend, if that's not cake and eat it I don't know what is."By comparison she's fine. She may get the odd pang of guilt etc, but her world hasn't changed or is being effected to nearly the same extent. She gets the new guy and romance and friendship and she gets to have the ex hanging around being attentive too. If that's not cake and eat it I don't know what is.
Why the inverted commas? Are you saying exes can't be proper friends immediately? Because I have proof to the contrary. How is she making his life worse by hanging around him? Maybe the happiness he gets from being around her outweighs the pain he feels from knowing he can't have her again?Eeeeh it's her business too, if she claims to love him as a friend. She is prolonging his pain by wanting to be his "friend". The frienship at this stage is at cross purposes. While ultimately people in my life are autonomous beings, I will try to avoid making their life worse by my actions. It's called consideration.
Consideration: To confuse and abandon somebody because you assume you know what's best for them? Surely it's the exes decision to leave her alone if it's all too painful for him? She can't just assume it, that wouldn't be respectful at all!
Disagree with this sentence. Maybe it's only off limits while the ex is healing over losing her,and I don't follow that that necessarily means he's after something more. Adjusting people from lovers to friends is a tricky business, and there is a lot of adjustment involved, but having a situation where there's awkwardness and not wanting to talk about her romantic life is much more conductive to the likelihood of the friendship enduring than a complete break in communications. I know you differ from me here, but I don't think cutting someone from your life for any amount of time is ever healthy, especially when you're assuming that you're doing it for the best for them.Ok we know the ex has told her he doesn't want to hear about her new life, or meet the OP as it would be upsetting to him. We know that it wasn't his idea to split and that upset him. That means the friendship can''t be "innocent" as a huge chunk of her life is off limits and the ex is quite likely to be hanging around for more than friendship. Where is the balance in that? There's precious little. He is still trying to work through the breakup. It will prolong his healing. He's topping up his drug every time he meets her. He needs emotional cold turkey and distance to heal. Yes, if and when he has fully absorbed the change in relationship. He hasn't yet
Besides, regardless of whether you think the gf's methods of keeping this friendship going are misguided, that's irrelevant to the OP and this thread as this is about if he has the right to intervene. And how she runs her friendships are her business.
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No, the OP has said that he personally doubted the ex would be up for it. As the OP admits that he's slightly assuming the worst about the guy, he can't be sure he's right.Eh the ex doesn't want to meet the OP either.
Same response as above. And your last two lines are quite the straw man argument there.Yes it is. You are really not getting the empathy dealio with this ex bloke. It's not a problem for her is what you're saying. So long as he doesn't attempt legover maneuvers then it's ok. She won't feel pressured. What about his feelings for her. What if he's still hanging on to hope with each encounter/text/phonecall. How in hades name is that even approaching the shores of healthy?
Right, this. Seriously, how can we get the exes take on it? All we have is theorising from somebody who doesn't even know him! He has not acted inappropriately, so I think he deserves to be taken at face value. It's really unfair to assume otherwise. Would you have the same objection to the gf hanging asround with someone who fancied her very much but had not gone out with her? Cos I don't see the difference really, and if you're going by that logic thena hell of a lot of innocent male-female friendships would be decimated! It is not plain that he is only being friends to keep the hope going! Not at all!No the important point is the ex doesn't. He is being friends to keep the hope going. It's as plain as the nose on your face. All you seem to be getting is her take on it.
The rest of your post kind of assumes agreement on your last point, so there's no point really going into it. Thanks for the argument to this point though, I've enjoyed it a lot and you make some very good points.0 -
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59144
Because it's more about her than him. So long as he doesn't try anything on, even if he still has feelings for her that's alright as she still has his friendship.beautiation wrote: »I'm sorry I just really don't follow/agree with the ulterior motives part. I don't follow how the gf not wanting to lose his friendship counts as an ulterior motive,
We can't assume but from what little evidence so far it's more possible than not.and I don't agree that we can assume the ex does not just want to be friends.
Actually I'm more presumptious about her tbh but the in quotes pretty much covers it.It comes back to your worst presumptions about this guy tbh. I read the above as: "She wants to have a boyfriend and a friend, if that's not cake and eat it I don't know what is."
In general yes. Unless it was mutual split, immediately is pretty much impossible. It may appear as friendship, but there is more going on under the surface.Why the inverted commas? Are you saying exes can't be proper friends immediately?
It's possible, but unlikely. If he gets that much happiness from her now and he didn't want to split up in the first place then pure logic would suggest he would want more than friendship as that would increase his happiness. Hearing about her current life decreases his happiness as it precludes that.How is she making his life worse by hanging around him? Maybe the happiness he gets from being around her outweighs the pain he feels from knowing he can't have her again?
Again if it's mutual fine. If not one person is still wanting more. The one with the power to grant or remove that hope is the one with advantage. Advantage over another and using that even unconsciously is not consideration. You have already confused and abandoned them and hurt them by your rejection of them. Dragging that out when emotions are still high is not good. Maybe it's just meConsideration: To confuse and abandon somebody because you assume you know what's best for them? Surely it's the exes decision to leave her alone if it's all too painful for him? She can't just assume it, that wouldn't be respectful at all!. I am friends with exes that I left and in each case I gave them time and space. I needed the time and space myself. In each case they thanked me for it down the line. I have gone to friends quite quickly on two ocassions, but they were flings. It never got into serious.
Ideal world for the ex. He loses her. He still loves her. She comes back. Pretty much. It mightn't be healthy, but how many couples can you think of that split, with one of them not wanting the split where the dumped would not want back?Disagree with this sentence. Maybe it's only off limits while the ex is healing over losing her,and I don't follow that that necessarily means he's after something more.
I take your point her friendships are her business. I would however consider a partners handing of her other relationships as being germane to how she may handle ours. A very extreme example would be someone I meet who is extremely callous with exes when they split is 9 times outa 10 going to treat me the same way should that happen. How they may treat members of the opposite sex that they're not attracted to would also be a good indicator of how they may treat me when the initial buzz wears off as it's a pretty good indicator of their default setting. Ok that's a bit general, but in context can be a good indicator, at least in my experience.Besides, regardless of whether you think the gf's methods of keeping this friendship going are misguided, that's irrelevant to the OP and this thread as this is about if he has the right to intervene. And how she runs her friendships are her business.
Well lets be honest of he doesn't want to hear about her current life and the OP, what are the odds that he wants to see him.No, the OP has said that he personally doubted the ex would be up for it. As the OP admits that he's slightly assuming the worst about the guy, he can't be sure he's right.
Entirely different emotional landscape tbh. If nothing else because the gf never fancied them. I would also be interested as to what she got from the relationship if the guy was obviously interested in her and made that clear. Elements of ego boost?Would you have the same objection to the gf hanging asround with someone who fancied her very much but had not gone out with her? Cos I don't see the difference really,
I've got three very close female friends. never an issue as there was never any fancying goin on. If there was it burnt out very early on. Big diff.and if you're going by that logic thena hell of a lot of innocent male-female friendships would be decimated!
It is more likely than not though. Human nature and all that.It is not plain that he is only being friends to keep the hope going! Not at all!
That I'll agree with.:DThanks for the argument to this point though, I've enjoyed it a lot and you make some very good points.
Maybe it's a man woman thing as I've noticed far more women try for the friendship after the break and quicker than men. In general obviously. Actually I've never known a man to say it or follow up on it until later. Maybe that's me again though...Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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