Do you wish celtic tiger never happened?

buckfast4me

Just wondering, ok to start I am 23. (Ignoring complex economics and markets bla bla) I wish it never happened for the following reasons:

1) People have more money, but yet the average couple with young children can barely scrape by with the costs of houses, transport, childcare, food etc. Resulting in both parents usually having to work long hours just to get by. This wasn't the case when me and my brothers and sisters were raised (mid 80's, early 90's). My dad supported all of us in a middle-management job, not great money but paid the mortgage on a house in a middle-class area, esb, phone, heating bills etc (without the need for my mother to work) while living comfortably.

) When we were growing up, most of the best memories I have are being out and about with friends playing football, cycling, playing in neighbours back gardens, etc. Nowadays kids just get plonked in front of the xbox and turn into zombies. Maybe it's just my area but I rarely ever see kids out playing any more. That can't be good for them.

3) People were a lot more friendly in general. We hadn't as much money but we were happier, neighbours were more welcoming. There wasn't as much violence in society. There wasn't that air of "menace" around the place. Money turns people into assholes.

So that's it. Any thoughts/opinions?

Edit - might have been a bad idea posting this in AH and looking for serious replies, I am relatively new to boards so is there some sort of general "society" forum? If so feel free to move there. Thanks.

leninbenjamin

you're 23. that means you grew up during the Celtic Tiger (at least part). fail.

buckfast4me

Well I think it started around 97/98, I was 13 like. In relation to point 2) I am talking about childhood years.

Kernel

Interesting question. Ireland has changed for the worse in subtle ways, however, I remember times were tough and times are definitely better for the individual nowadays. Balance in everything is what we should strive for I guess.

Cool_CM

oh but man, then i'd totally have to give up my ipod

Beerlao

your poll doesn't make sense.

if i vote YES, it looks like "yes, i wish the celtic tiger never happened"

if i vote NO, it looks like "no, i wish the celtic tiger never happened"


but yeah, in the 70s, my mum and her brothers and sisters all had to leave the west of ireland and move to england to find work. i don't think this would be the case today. i think they probably would've put up with some extra bad manners in the street for not having to leave their homeland at the age of 16

buckfast4me

I know I tried to edit it afterwards, but seems you can't edit polls only the post.

Karlusss

It's left Ireland a bit culture-less and full of flat-screen TVs. It's not a bad place like, but it doesn't really feel like OUR place, or at least in the same way it did when I was 6.

bluto63

No, gimme more money

rossie1977

Celtic Tiger what the hell was that, a band never heard of the Celtic Tiger west of the shannon

Sangre

ask your parents if they wish they were still leaving the 80s.

Fremen

buckfast4me wrote: »

Just wondering, ok to start I am 23. (Ignoring complex economics and markets bla bla) I wish it never happened for the following reasons:

1) People have more money, but yet the average couple with young children can barely scrape by with the costs of houses, transport, childcare, food etc. Resulting in both parents usually having to work long hours just to get by. This wasn't the case when me and my brothers and sisters were raised (mid 80's, early 90's). My dad supported all of us in a middle-management job, not great money but paid the mortgage on a house in a middle-class area, esb, phone, heating bills etc (without the need for my mother to work) while living comfortably.

) When we were growing up, most of the best memories I have are being out and about with friends playing football, cycling, playing in neighbours back gardens, etc. Nowadays kids just get plonked in front of the xbox and turn into zombies. Maybe it's just my area but I rarely ever see kids out playing any more. That can't be good for them.

3) People were a lot more friendly in general. We hadn't as much money but we were happier, neighbours were more welcoming. There wasn't as much violence in society. There wasn't that air of "menace" around the place. Money turns people into assholes.

So that's it. Any thoughts/opinions?

Edit - might have been a bad idea posting this in AH and looking for serious replies, I am relatively new to boards so is there some sort of general "society" forum? If so feel free to move there. Thanks.

To summarise:
"Hey! You kids! Get off my durn lawn!"

Alessandra

Who wants to go back to the situation pre-Celtic Tiger? They were fairly depressing years in the late 80s and early 90s from what I was told.. My parents couldn't afford many of the luxuries which they today enjoy such as foreign travel. More people leaving the country than coming into it and massive unemployment. No thanks, I'll thanks Mr. Celtic Tiger for some very happy years and suffer the consequences of any possible downturn.

wordofmouth

I think the flat screen tvs games etc part of a wider shift in society in general rather then celtic tigers effect on Ireland.
Entertainment is more personal now with internet, loads of channels etc people can pick and choose what they want. Maybe celtic tiger made these things arrive quicker but it'd be like it is now regardless. Our country is better now i imagine. I'm only 21 so i guess I'm very much a celtic tiger baby don't know what twas like in the olden days!

JC 2K3

Being 19, I have distant memories of McDonalds employees being able to comprehend my order without saying it slowly and loudly.

That's about it.

Rb

No. It was a very good thing for this country and I only wish I was older at the time so I could have capitalised on it. Hopefully if I leave Ireland (the cost of living in Dublin is just too high these days) I'll be able to come back at a time where things are booming again and make something of it.

xOxSinéadxOx

i'd rather not leave the country to find a job thanks

phantom_lord

yeah, cause things were so much better in the 80s.

de5p0i1er

I miss the good old days everyone was poor and you could get a house for as little as £20,000. Things were much better back then.

connundrum

rb_ie wrote: »

No. It was a very good thing for this country and I only wish I was older at the time so I could have capitalised on it.

+1. I just started into bleedin real estate as the boom was finishing. Bah! That'll learn me for taking too long finishing my schooling

Overheal

i like the fact that i can up and leave from these shores when things go wrong and i wont have many reservations about it

that said I really dont want to go back to america. Please hang on to me for now, like a cold wet puppydog.

Jesus Wept

buckfast4me wrote: »

Money turns people into assholes.

No it doesn't, it reveals people's actual arseholeness, doesn't creates it.

The-Rigger

The-Rigger wrote: »

No it doesn't, it reveals people's actual arseholeness, doesn't creates it.

QFT

dcukhunter

Things are better now ya house's etc. costs more but wages have also gone up. I'm 29 now but when I started working you would have been lucky to get much more than 100 a week for 50-60 or more hours. Although I do agree with you that people were friendlier years ago. If you need a hand now most people will just walk on they seem too busy. But even with all that I still rather now than go back to the 80s, 90s or before.

Abi

dcukhunter wrote: »

Things are better now ya house's etc. costs more but wages have also gone up.

So has everything else. household bills, grocery shopping etc. Wages might have been lower, but so was the cost of living. And a house and car was an achievable goal if you kept your nose down. Certainly the term '100% mortgages' werent thrown around so loosely. I agree with OP on the point of the mother being at home (if that is what she chooses to do). I was lucky enough to have my mother at home, not thrown into childcare like I have to with my kids. I've started a new job recently - F/T. I do not see them. I think Im going to jack it and try get P/T, because they've taken so badly to it. If scraping by is what we have to do, then so be it. They see me taking them out of bed in the morning, then putting them back in at night. Its the pits. My mother would have taken up Christmas work or taken in students if she wanted throw a few quid in the pot for a holiday. But she was always there when we needed her.

Everyone has their own take on things, but I think its become too fast-paced and the game has gotten bigger and indeed scarier for most. To summarise, I could have done without the CT.

leninbenjamin

buckfast4me wrote: »

Well I think it started around 97/98, I was 13 like. In relation to point 2) I am talking about childhood years.

no it started well before that around, 93 - 94. it actually ended in 99. the rest of the growth after that was from just property and increases in population.

WooPeeA

You can go aboard for holidays, send the kids for good studies. That was imposible before.

You said people are not that nice anymore. I do not agree. Irish are the most friendly people in the world. That's why they are always welcomed with smile.

That's a good thing.

The bad thing is that kids have enough money for drugs and alcohol.

Marksie

you know i am in two minds about this one.

One one hand when i was at Uni and then beyond it was during the thatcher years and i really could see the parallels with the loadsamoney types and teh way society went for the grab grab grab.

I think that it was good for the country in soem resepcts, put you on the map as it were as a contender.
BUT I think that it has been woefully mismanaged, once the cronies and the moneygrabbers had creamed of the top of it, it juts didn't filter down.
I think that if you look back in a few years time it will be seen as a missed opportunity to have built a solid foundation in both education, health, infrastructure.
Its bertie's legacy, a few get rich and the rest is mismanaged.

Sherifu

Marksie wrote: »

I think that it was good for the country in soem resepcts, put you on the map as it were as a contender.
BUT I think that it has been woefully mismanaged, once the cronies and the moneygrabbers had creamed of the top of it, it juts didn't filter down.
I think that if you look back in a few years time it will be seen as a missed opportunity to have built a solid foundation in both education, health, infrastructure.
Its bertie's legacy, a few get rich and the rest is mismanaged.

Well said, agree with all of that.

Kipperhell

From what the OP is saying you would swear that things were good before and that without the celtic tiger all things would have remained as they were in Ireland. Many increased costs in Ireland are due to the world economy e.g. fuel, food etc...
The average couple in Ireland left the country and were unable to afford anything. A lot more people were unemployed with no prospect of employment. The belief that only a few benefited is IMHO nonsense. Many people have a better quality of life but in saying that relative poverty has increased.
The whole children playing on the streets ending is really a world wide thing and not unique to Ireland. In the 80s people claimed computer games were doing what you now claim is happening. In the 50s in the US there was similar belief on comic books.

Basically don't believe the media and try not to look back on the past with rose coloured glasses, things change and some things never change.

Tigger

tigers are great i can't belive that kids are going aroung thinking that the tiger did anything but good for them
see the henry the hioppo posters thats the 80
please da can i have a money box that only the bank can open
fun times
no video-players if something was on you missed it or watched it
you could not see a film if you didn';t go to the cinema till 6 years later at christrmas and then you parents told you to talk to grandad while they argued about washing up
tape playing walkmans were a half a weeks wages and the tapes were 8th generation mono copies via din jack from a record player
everyone drove crap cars
petrol an diesel was going up at a crazy pace
cans of coke had an extra tax on them a "super can "500ml was 0.5 vpunts thats 70c in todays money 25 years ag
to put that in context a pack of 20 major was 1.50

constitutionus

depends what you mean by the celtic tiger.

it was great that people who actually WORKED were able to benefit from it. its the fecking freeloading sectors who do sod all that FCUKED things up. in the main i blame the cosy arragement between the banks, politicians and the property developers.

100% loans should NEVER have happened .and to this day if the standard 2 1/2 times your wage rule was applied to mortgages the AVERGE gaff, and thats a 3 bedroom one not these fecking dog box appartments, should only cost 120k BECAUSE NO ON ELSE COULD GET MORE ! and thats with a couple buying. the most a single person could afford would be just shy of 90k.

thats why housing became the bubble it did. giving 13 times your wage as a mortgage with no money down was fcuking irresponsible and they KNEW it but didnt care as long as the cash came in and now were paying for it in the form of negative equity and kids whove never seen their parents in daylight. wait till you see the effects of the latter, this whole creche cultures really going to mess things up in the future.
when the housing sector went mad because of this the public sector tried to pay catch up, come on dont tell me you didnt notice that the increases nurses and gardai wanted directly related to how much they could use to get a mortgage? so then one started chasing the other in terms of wage increases and buggerd up the whole dynamic. and now were back ikn a recession again.

was things better in the 80s? on the surface you'd say of course not! but the OP had a point that i can echo. MY dad bought a house supported a wife and raised four kids IN A RECESSION on less than the average industrial wage. my mates earing OVER 35k a year cant even buy the house and middle class people now actually BOAST about having two kids as if its some sign of status. end of the day FAMILY life was much better pre celtic tiger. and the conditions i went in to school are STILL the same now as they were back in the 80s in terms of class sizes and buildings so its not like THATS changed. (they were banging on about having less than 30 in a class when i LEFT school in 90)

jesus wept. we're actually in the position where its easier to buy a porche than raise a family.theres definetly something fecking wrong with that.

so no, while i dont wish the celtic tiger never happened i DO wish the monkeys that were meant to be its shepards had've done their jobs properly instead of buggering up the country for a quick cash grab.

seraphimvc

celtic tiger is not that big...

if you ever go to asia (taiwan,Hong Kong,Japan etc) or US,man,you will find the life here s*cks!in a young man opinion...

ScumLord

I don't think the boom was bad at all. I think the governments lack of forward thinking has really wasted the boom. They got jobs into the country and figured shoveling money into us would be enough. They did nothing to ensure communities lived on, instead allowed developers to build huge estates with no services. Where's our public transport network? Where's our town planing?

What annoys me about the boom is that the government basically made the same mistakes every other country made 50 years ago. We had a great chance to make this country great but it could be gone now.

I think that the construction industry could very well pick up again in a few years when we have to repair or replace the terrible houses that where thrown up over the boom.

constitutionus

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't think the boom was bad at all. I think the governments lack of forward thinking has really wasted the boom. They got jobs into the country and figured shoveling money into us would be enough. They did nothing to ensure communities lived on, instead allowed developers to build huge estates with no services. Where's our public transport network? Where's our town planing?

What annoys me about the boom is that the government basically made the same mistakes every other country made 50 years ago. We had a great chance to make this country great but it could be gone now.

I think that the construction industry could very well pick up again in a few years when we have to repair or replace the terrible houses that where thrown up over the boom.

you know what bugs me is they had a precedent.

tallaght.

it might look prettier but theyve basically turned the entire country into tallaght. THOUSANDS of people packed into a places with no schools, shops ,civic amenities etc . honestly ,where the hell do people from these makey up places like "ongar" do their shopping and how do they get there? fecking MILES away in some faceless lidl and by car. ditto for where they send their kids to school.

the more things change the more they stay the same.

WooPeeA

WooPeeA wrote: »

You said people are not that nice anymore. I do not agree. Irish are the most friendly people in the world. That's why they are always welcomed with smile.

You've obviously not tried to get accomodation in San Diego then. Landlords hate the irish, mainly because the pricks that go over there have these going-away parties, trashing the apartments and then running away again.

An Bhfuil tu sa

I would be a person who grew up in the Celtic tiger so have no idea what it was like to struggle to find work back when things were hard. It's great that people have jobs and are able to afford things but I believe alot of people take what they have for granted and they could do with a bit of struggle to change their attitude towards life. The amount of snobbery in Dublin sickens me at time's to be honest.

The celtic tiger is on it's last legs anyway as these things go in 18 year cycles more or less so let's just hope things don't get too bad.

leninbenjamin

constitutionus wrote: »

100% loans should NEVER have happened .and to this day if the standard 2 1/2 times your wage rule was applied to mortgages the AVERGE gaff, and thats a 3 bedroom one not these fecking dog box appartments, should only cost 120k BECAUSE NO ON ELSE COULD GET MORE ! and thats with a couple buying. the most a single person could afford would be just shy of 90k.

100% mortgages have absolutely nothing to do with the Celtic Tiger. that was the general reaction of the banking system globally to prevent the economic downturn after 9/11 basically.

and in terms of mortgages, relatively speaking for most they are still the same proportion of the wages as they were back in the 80s. that's because interest rates were so friggin' high back then, and wages low. you're talking 14% or something at the beginning of the 90s. this 2 and a half your wages is bull tbh, your ability to repay is all about the interest rates. and it was just as difficult for a young couple to buy a house then as it is now, my parents will testify to that.

and dog box apartments? this attitude is why in many respects our country has gone to the dogs. it's easier to supply facilities to people living in higher density areas than low density ones. I mean people have their lovely semi D and back garden and spend 2 or 3 hours on the road a day, miles from any schools, shops etc. spending nearly the same on childcare as they do on their mortgages. while the kids grow up dependent on alcohol because there is nothing better to do. proper planning resulting in higher density living with then proper parks, amenities in the towns and cities is the way we should have gone. not this endless housing estate crap.

stovelid

I was a teenager in the 80s. Economically, it was nothing to be nostalgic about, believe me.

ScumLord

leninbenjamin wrote: »

and dog box apartments? this attitude is why in many respects our country has gone to the dogs. it's easier to supply facilities to people living in higher density areas than low density ones. I mean people have their lovely semi D and back garden and spend 2 or 3 hours on the road a day, miles from any schools, shops etc. spending nearly the same on childcare as they do on their mortgages. while the kids grow up dependent on alcohol because there is nothing better to do. proper planning resulting in higher density living with then proper parks, amenities in the towns and cities is the way we should have gone. not this endless housing estate crap.

I'm not so much in favor of higher density. I've seen the density of people in my town go up allot but it hasn't improved things any. Although like you said no consideration was made for all these extra people, just trown up the houses and that will do. One of the developers never even finished the green areas, the estate has more of less been a building site for the last 6 or 7 years. He has fled the country.

oblivious

constitutionus wrote: »

you know what bugs me is they had a precedent.

tallaght.

it might look prettier but theyve basically turned the entire country into tallaght. THOUSANDS of people packed into a places with no schools, shops ,civic amenities etc . honestly ,where the hell do people from these makey up places like "ongar" do their shopping and how do they get there? fecking MILES away in some faceless lidl and by car. ditto for where they send their kids to school.

O god i hear ya, i grew up in Blanchardstown area and still live there. ongar does have a descent sized Dunnes Stores, but it would seam its supposed to cater for the rest of the 2000+ unites that are planned to be built over the next 10 years.

But the rest of the planning is a joke, squashing schools into sites that no other European country that where green field site 4 years previous and public transport well that another story

BLITZ_Molloy

Meh, we had a games console and a big television in 1990. Things weren't THAT different.

I wish the celtic tiger had happened 10 years later once I got on the property ladder. Would have paid 20,000 pounds for my flat instead of 200,000 euro. 10% of the population are between 50 and 70 but they have 90% of the money. Our parents go on about how ****ing hard they had it but they've been much luckier than we'll ever be. Most of us will be working till 75.

0ubliette

While i think alot of this comes down to rose tinted glasses, i think this was a much nicer place to live in in the 80's, early 90's.
The countrys problems are becoming more and more numerous over the last 10 years or more. Cost of living is extortionate, buying a house as a first time buyer is almost impossible, crime rates are getting higher, kids seem tob e getting wider and wilder (at least i certainly dont recall any 16yr olds i knew stabbing people to death with screwdrivers when i was that age),and with the mass of immigration there seems to be alot of worry over a loss of national identity as a whole. And as this has hapened its been around the time of the celtic tiger (which IMO has been dead for years at this stage). So its quite convenient to blame all irelands problems on the boom, and subsequent crash that the CT caused. While some of it definitely is attributable to it, alot i think jsut comes with how society not only in ireland but in general is going. People are more fearful, less friendly, you only had to read abut the cyclist knocked down and left to die while cars drove AROUND him in Manchester to see how bad things are getting. So yes, CT had is plusses and negatives.

tl;dr: CT was a good and bad thing, Ireland was a nicer place before it hit, society is in a massive moral decline and would be with or without the CT.

leninbenjamin

ScumLord wrote: »

I'm not so much in favor of higher density. I've seen the density of people in my town go up allot but it hasn't improved things any. Although like you said no consideration was made for all these extra people, just trown up the houses and that will do. One of the developers never even finished the green areas, the estate has more of less been a building site for the last 6 or 7 years. He has fled the country.

when talking high density though you can't point to any examples in this country really. the problem is not higher density living in general but how we've handled it. in general we only build up as a last resort which means already the space is gone to supply the amenities like playgrounds, parks, pitches. i know why so many people are averse to it giving the shambles that is an bord pleanala, but with proper foresight and support you can arguably create a higher quality of living in high density areas. instead of 4 houses close together with miniscule gardens, build one structure which takes up half the footprint which leaves a much larger open area for kids to play in (and also interact) and with the resources saved by building only one structure put them towards a playground or something. in this country however the extra resources go straight into the developers pockets, that's why it's imperative to have a proper plan and strategy in place.

thelordofcheese

buckfast4me wrote: »

Just wondering, ok to start I am 23. (Ignoring complex economics and markets bla bla) I wish it never happened for the following reasons:

1) People have more money, but yet the average couple with young children can barely scrape by with the costs of houses, transport, childcare, food etc. Resulting in both parents usually having to work long hours just to get by. This wasn't the case when me and my brothers and sisters were raised (mid 80's, early 90's). My dad supported all of us in a middle-management job, not great money but paid the mortgage on a house in a middle-class area, esb, phone, heating bills etc (without the need for my mother to work) while living comfortably.

) When we were growing up, most of the best memories I have are being out and about with friends playing football, cycling, playing in neighbours back gardens, etc. Nowadays kids just get plonked in front of the xbox and turn into zombies. Maybe it's just my area but I rarely ever see kids out playing any more. That can't be good for them.

3) People were a lot more friendly in general. We hadn't as much money but we were happier, neighbours were more welcoming. There wasn't as much violence in society. There wasn't that air of "menace" around the place. Money turns people into assholes.

So that's it. Any thoughts/opinions?

Edit - might have been a bad idea posting this in AH and looking for serious replies, I am relatively new to boards so is there some sort of general "society" forum? If so feel free to move there. Thanks.

Ahh i like those glasses you have on, the rosey tint they have is marvelous.

constitutionus

you seriously need to look at suburban dublin.

its ALL high density dog boxes now they cant sell. and i MEAN dog boxes, my mate was renting a one bed in tallaght near the hospital and arm outstreached swinging a cat by the tail will smack its head off all four walls. and that place would cost you 1000 euro plus a month to rent.

end of the day theres no comparison the the three bed i bought for a third of the money .

tinofapples

People were better off when they could afford things like houses/cars and had less ideas about what they needed/wanted.

KnifeWRENCH

I'm only 18 so I guess I was a Celtic Tiger baby.
I do have memories of simpler times though: we didn't have a landline telephone until I was well into Primary School!!:D

I guess what you have to have to look at is the quality of life in Ireland now compared to before: from a 2007 report,we have the 5th highest Human Development Index in the world (behind Iceland, Norway, Australia and Canada). The development of our economy has increased our standard of living, so in my opinion the negative effects of Celtic Tiger (drugs, anti-social behaviour and whatnot) are outweighed by the positive

BLITZ_Molloy

Yeah, all that rose tinted nonsense is rubbish. I grew up in the 80's and things were grim. Yeah, a certain amount of the kids played sports. But any of the kids weren't were bored out of their minds. Parents would dump em out of the house at the start of the day (most of the mothers were homemakers) and they wouldn't be allowed back in till their dinner. Plenty of anti-social behavour. That's nothing new. People had the **** kicked out of them at my school and there was no talk about 'verbal bullying' or any of the new agey bollocks.

darkman2

Those, like the OP, who 'grew up' during the 'Celtic Tiger' and now 'wish it had not happened' piss me off to be completely honest. These guys dont realise what life was like in this country until the mid nineties - they have not got a notion of what 'tough' really means. Id love to show some of these people around the slums of Dublin in the 80's which did not look out of place in communist Russia. Dublin was a slum city which huge social decay. Of course you can change the buildings but you will never change the people in them. Why Tallaght and Clondalkin and Ballymun are not the best places to live is because many of the people that live there now - their families where moved from the slums in Dublin - they took the social problems with them. However it must be said that things have improved dramatically. So much so that these pampered youths (im one of them!) have never known what its like to live in genuinely tough times. Id be hoping we will never ever go back to that but part of me says its the kick in the arse some of these pompous gits need.

constitutionus

ah the good ol days ! when if ya had a problem with someone you beat the ****e out of em. none of this "text" bullying crap, in my day the only way to bully someone with a phone was to shove it up his arse

personally i think weve raised a generation of pussys.