Indoor Range in Mayo Galway or nearby

Oldtree

Could anyone let me know if there is an indoor range in Mayo/Galway/Roscommon? I used to shoot in a 25 yard indoor range for a number of years in england with .22's (prone) and enjoyed it very much and would like to start again.

I would be grateful for any info. Thanks

rrpc

Afraid not Oldtree. The only one I know of that does .22 prone is Rathdrum. There are a number of clubs talking about building indoor ranges, but as far as I know (outside of Northern Ireland) there's Rathdrum, Hilltop (don't think they do prone .22 there) and Trinity College (you have to be a student or alumni).

thehair

Oldtree wrote: »

Could anyone let me know if there is an indoor range in Mayo/Galway/Roscommon? I used to shoot in a 25 yard indoor range for a number of years in england with .22's (prone) and enjoyed it very much and would like to start again.

I would be grateful for any info. Thanks

hi i live in mayo only shooting .22LF rimfire are you thinking of buying
a rifle and if you are what type. steve
i dont no of any ranges in mayo sorry and welcome to shooting:D

Oldtree

Ah well, i suppose it was too much to hope for.
Had a look at the rathdrum website last night.
Is there anything stopping me building a one man 25 yard indoor range on a bit of farmland, once I have a licence?

I would like to get a Anschutz 1913 barrel with a 2213 alu stock and a 7020/20 sight set, If I could.

I used to shoot with old martinis, Probably dating back to the last great war.... but it was great fun and a good disipline. I got my first 100 with one in may '92 a proud day. My average was about 98, but that was a while back.

IRLConor

Oldtree wrote: »

Is there anything stopping me building a one man 25 yard indoor range on a bit of farmland, once I have a licence?

Well, you'll need planning permission for the structure. You'd need an authorisation from your local super for the range. After that, I don't think there's much else to it apart from building it.

rrpc here knows a decent bit about speccing a building for a range. It's not rocket science, but if you have a decent plan the Gardai should take any application for an authorisation more seriously.

I'd try and get together a bunch of people within driving distance of you first. As much as I'd love my own personal range, I wouldn't relish the thought of having to do all the work myself. :eek:

Oldtree wrote: »

I would like to get a Anschutz 1913 barrel with a 2213 alu stock and a 7020/20 sight set, If I could.

Rifles like that pop up for sale every now and again. If you find an wooden stock Anschutz and want to convert it to aluminium then have a look on http://www.intershoot.co.uk/, you can get stocks and other gear from there. The guy who runs that is a target shooter and he posts here as demonloop.

Oldtree wrote: »

I used to shoot with old martinis, Probably dating back to the last great war.... but it was great fun and a good disipline. I got my first 100 with one in may '92 a proud day. My average was about 98, but that was a while back.

Cool. It's always nice to hear about new prospective competitors. Another range would be brilliant too. If you find a place to shoot, be sure to enter a few postal shoots. That way you can get some competitions done without having to go all the way to Rathdrum or the north and it's a good thing to keep you on your toes through the winter.

It's like riding a bike, you should be back shooting 10s in no time.

thehair

sorry oldtree i thought you had a rifle i need to read the post more:)

fat-tony

IRLConor wrote: »

Well, you'll need planning permission for the structure. You'd need an authorisation from your local super for the range.

Well, I wonder if you would need the authorisation from the super It's not a public range...You're not holding competitions ...If you had sufficient land, it might be considered ok for zeroing;)

It wasn't me!

You would need the authorisation alright. It's for any kind of target shooting really bar clays. Shouldn't really be too bad though. It might be an idea to build it in a decent sized building so that at some point you could open it up to extended membership.

IRLConor

fat-tony wrote: »

Well, I wonder if you would need the authorisation from the super It's not a public range...You're not holding competitions ...If you had sufficient land, it might be considered ok for zeroing;)

I don't think the range has to be open to the public to count as a range.

I can't remember if Section 4A of the Firearms Act (the bit put in by the CJA 2006) has been commenced yet. That would require you to get an authorisation:

Firearms Act Section 4A (Parts elided for clarity) wrote:

1. [An] owner or operator of a rifle or pistol shooting range shall not allow any firearm or ammunition to be used ... at the ... shooting range in connection with target shooting unless an authorisation under this section to do so is in force.

And to get an authorisation, you would also need a range certificate (provided Section 4B of the Firearms Act has been commenced).

Vegeta

I really, really, really, really hope the FCP squeeze a definition of a range out of the DoJ

Until then its hard to say if a one target practice lane is considered a range or not

IRLConor

Vegeta wrote: »

I really, really, really, really hope the FCP squeeze a definition of a range out of the DoJ

Until then its hard to say if a one target practice lane is considered a range or not

Yeah, at the moment a range is:

"shooting range" does not include a range or shooting gallery referred to in section 2(4)(e) of this Act

So a range is anything that a judge decides is a range except a shooting gallery in a funfair. :rolleyes:

FOS

the following doesnt meet your indoor needs but depending on your location in mayo.... may be of interest
Lough bo rifle and pistol range authorised near riverstown in co sligo

they are on google maps and wikimapia if you want to see location and contact details
Can call Gerry on 086 8262654 (i think he doesnt answer privates)

thehair

hi oldtree try lough bo shooting centre they have a outdoor pistol range
mob 086.8262654 ger conlon
addrest riverstown co sligo;)

thehair

FOS wrote: »

the following doesnt meet your indoor needs but depending on your location in mayo.... may be of interest
Lough bo rifle and pistol range authorised near riverstown in co sligo

they are on google maps and wikimapia if you want to see location and contact details
Can call Gerry on 086 8262654 (i think he doesnt answer privates)

fos you beat me to it:D

IRLConor

Here's a link to a map.

fat-tony

IRLConor wrote: »

Yeah, at the moment a range is:



So a range is anything that a judge decides is a range except a shooting gallery in a funfair. :rolleyes:

So explain this to me - a landowner can give me permission to shoot (say) bunnies on his/her land. This (presumably) does not need the landowner to register his/her land as a range - ok? Extrapolate this argument a bit.... I do some 50m zeroing on this land - it's still not a range... or is it? Answers on a postcard etc....

IRLConor

fat-tony wrote: »

So explain this to me - a landowner can give me permission to shoot (say) bunnies on his/her land. This (presumably) does not need the landowner to register his/her land as a range - ok? Extrapolate this argument a bit.... I do some 50m zeroing on this land - it's still not a range... or is it? Answers on a postcard etc....

Yeah, it's hard to know what's what. It's even harder to remember which bits of the law have been commenced!

In your example above it's impossible to know whether a judge would consider that a range. In theory (and to the best of my non-legally-trained knowledge) they could define that as a range if they wanted to. Doesn't seem likely to me, but stranger things have happened.

rrpc

IRLConor wrote: »

Yeah, it's hard to know what's what. It's even harder to remember which bits of the law have been commenced!

In your example above it's impossible to know whether a judge would consider that a range. In theory (and to the best of my non-legally-trained knowledge) they could define that as a range if they wanted to. Doesn't seem likely to me, but stranger things have happened.

One for the firearms miscellaneous bill methinks:

*Definition of a range.*

Vegeta

IRLConor wrote: »

So a range is anything that a judge decides is a range

That's a good way of putting it

Gunter Mauser

Definition of what is a range.This will have to be considered a potential new & looming gray front. A gray area on the horizon that could spell rain clouds for vermin shooters & stalkers in all 26 counties.Will they need authorization or is it better to put up with the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune and wait for a judge to decide,that is the question. Pleanty of 300m+ ranges might fill this vacuum when ever this law gets commenced.

IRLConor

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

Definition of what is a range.This will have to be considered a potential new & looming gray front. A gray area on the horizon that could spell rain clouds for vermin shooters & stalkers in all 26 counties.Will they need authorization or is it better to put up with the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune and wait for a judge to decide,that is the question.

Well, it's not a grey area if the owner decides it's a range and gets an authorisation for it.

The only time there's trouble is when someone decides that it's not a range and then a judge subsequently disagrees with them.

In most cases, the safe route is to apply for an authorisation. Unfortunately that's no help to hunters who want to zero their rifles on a convenient piece of land near to them.

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

Pleanty of 300m+ ranges might fill this vacuum when ever this law gets commenced.

If a rigid definition of "range" and "target shooting" is applied by the Gardai then all ranges should try to help out their local hunters. Certainly the 300m+ ranges have their place helping out large calibre hunters but I'm sure any range with 100yds would be useful for people out after rabbits. Possibly foxes too, I don't know what distance fox shooters zero to.

Sparks

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

Definition of what is a range.This will have to be considered a potential new & looming gray front.

No, because it's neither potential (it's actual and it was brought to the attention of the previous Minister) nor is it new (it was spotted the day Section 4A got published).

It wasn't me!

Fox shooters with .223's would often be zeroing at 180-200 yards, so they'd need more ground.

Gunter Mauser

Is what you are both saying is, when this section of the bill finally gets put into opperation only then will the likes of Deer Stalker / Vermin shooter finally know with certainty what they can or cannot do as regards to zeroing / start of season practice.If the FCP does a good job putting the case for a practical common sense approach to what the definition of a range is then this will be a very good days work done indeed.

Vegeta

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Fox shooters with .223's would often be zeroing at 180-200 yards, so they'd need more ground.

Or they can zero high at 100

Saying that nothing gets you used to your rifle like shooting at long range. It exagerates every mistake and gives you a better feel for the interaction between wind and your round. Makes you a better marksman all round really.

IRLConor

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

Is what you are both saying is, when this section of the bill finally gets put into opperation only then will the likes of Deer Stalker / Vermin shooter finally know with certainty what they can or cannot do as regards to zeroing / start of season practice.

When it comes into operation no-one will be any clearer as to what the law says. It could just as easily go like this:

Hunter: Can I use this field for zeroing my deer rifle?
DoJ: Sure, go ahead, the Minister said in the Dail a while back that it was OK.
Garda A: Sure, go ahead, I know you're not up to anything dodgy.
The hunter then goes and shoots.
Garda B: What are you doing in that field?! Unauthorised target shooting! Down the station with you!
Judge: You were target shooting on an unauthorised range. Guilty.

That's a worst case scenario, but unless the law is changed to be explicit about the definitions of "range" and "target shooting" there will always be some risk.

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

If the FCP does a good job putting the case for a practical common sense approach to what the definition of a range is then this will be a very good days work done indeed.

If it is within their remit, it would be a good thing for the FCP to suggest for repair in upcoming legislation.

Oldtree

Ask a simple question...........:eek:

This clearly demands further thought. Should a 25 yard indoor range be built, maby along the lines of 5 to a detail, in south mayo, would there be enough interest to make it commercially viable (not necessarly profit making, just sustainable) from surrounding counties?

IRLConor

Oldtree wrote: »

Ask a simple question...........:eek:

You must be new here. Welcome.

Oldtree wrote: »

This clearly demands further thought. Should a 25 yard indoor range be built, maby along the lines of 5 to a detail, in south mayo, would there be enough interest to make it commercially viable (not necessarly profit making, just sustainable) from surrounding counties?

Perhaps someone from Rathdrum could give you (by PM if they're sensitive) a rough idea of the costs involved in running an indoor 25yd range. I know the numbers roughly for DURC but we're not really comparable since we're a university club.

Rathdrum is close to plenty of other ranges but they still manage to attract enough shooters. If there aren't many ranges in your neck of the woods it should be possible to get enough people together.

Gunter Mauser

Quote IRLConnor "If it is within their remit, it would be a good thing for the FCP to suggest for repair in upcoming legislation." Very shortly the present minister for justice may very well be replaced, if this does happen and a new minister not sympathetic to reason might very well stick to a strict definition of what target shooting and what exactly defines a range .This opens the possibility that if the hunter cannot afford to get his/her informal place (used for zeroing / start of the season practice) authorized, the prospect of deerstalkers not properly zeroed or practiced for the start of the stalking season will result eventually in the rise of woulded quarry.
If this does become the reality then a need have proper range felicities available around the country becomes essential. If humane dispatch of animals is paramount to all concerned this reality needs clarifation.

IRLConor

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

IRLConor wrote:

If it is within their remit, it would be a good thing for the FCP to suggest for repair in upcoming legislation.

Very shortly the present minister for justice may very well be replaced, if this does happen and a new minister not sympathetic to reason might very well stick to a strict definition of what target shooting and what exactly defines a range.This opens the possibility that if the hunter cannot afford to get his/her informal place (used for zeroing / start of the season practice) authorized, the prospect of deerstalkers not properly zeroed or practiced for the start of the stalking season will result eventually in the rise of woulded quarry. If this does become the reality then a need have proper range felicities available around the country becomes essential. If humane dispatch of animals is paramount to all concerned this reality needs clarifation.

I can't see Lenihan being moved from his current post. You never know though.

I agree though, the need for hunters to be sure that their rifle is correctly zeroed is vital for humane hunting. The private target shooting on private land is also a concern for target shooters. It's a long drive for many shooters to get to a range and it can be hard to get in the training.

Gunter Mauser

If the stalker does not in the future practice in any way, only does a quick zero for fear of being accused of target shooting, can the carless stalker who blows off the stags jaw now claim to the park ranger,sorry about that but its all the fault of the new regulations not me.:rolleyes: This would make an ass of this new bill from its inception if it gets implemented severely.Could you find one department of government taking some other department to court over bad law.:eek:

Will this become an ethical Question for the Green party and its
leader the minister?

rrpc

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

Will this become an ethical Question for the Green party and its
leader the minister?

Not really, because the Greens don't want you shooting deer at all, at all

btw Gunter Mauser, could you please make sure when you're quoting someone that you enclose the quoted bit with quoted bit [/quote]' so that we can see what you're saying and not mixing it up with the other person.

If you have two many 's or 's as well you get the same effect. One of each is plenty.

Please don't take this up wrong, I'm only trying to be helpful.

rrpc

Oldtree wrote: »

Ask a simple question...........:eek:

This clearly demands further thought. Should a 25 yard indoor range be built, maby along the lines of 5 to a detail, in south mayo, would there be enough interest to make it commercially viable (not necessarly profit making, just sustainable) from surrounding counties?

Running costs are usually pretty small. We run an electricity meter in Rathdrum so that we don't have huge bills and everyone is reponsible for the electricity they use.

We have to pay rates to the council which is a pretty big bill, and because we own a building there's public liability and fire insurance, but we've managed in some of the leaner years with only seven or eight members.

The two biggest expenditures in recent years have been the electronic targets and getting the range authorisation from the Gardai. Otherwise the place runs for under €3,000 a year.

Would this not descend into a question of the license?

For example, if I claim that I was 'zeroing' my FWB, then I am in the **** for applying for a licence under false pretences as I can only use the thing for target shooting, however if I was 'zeroing' my deer shooting rifle, which I applied for hunting reasons, than would I be somewhat in the clear as I was following the conditions of my license?

It wasn't me!

Deleted User wrote: »

Would this not descend into a question of the license?

For example, if I claim that I was 'zeroing' my FWB, then I am in the **** for applying for a licence under false pretences as I can only use the thing for target shooting, however if I was 'zeroing' my deer shooting rifle, which I applied for hunting reasons, than would I be somewhat in the clear as I was following the conditions of my license?

I may be entirely wrong, but I don't recall there being a target shooting section box to tick on the form. As far as I can remember, the only related box is related to killing protected animals, so vermin are outside the remit of that box. As a result, it seems to be that as long as I have the express permission of the landowner, it's perfectly fine to shoot vermin with a target rifle, so you could happily scope up the FWB and take it bunny busting if you wanted, without infringing the conditions of your licence. I might be wrong, and if so, someone tell be, because I have barbecued rabbit shaped plans for my Anschutz for the summer.

I've always had to talk with my local guards about what I wanted my guns for.

You must also prove that you are a member of a target shooting club to get a pistol. Now, it I was using my target rifle in a filed firing at a tin can, I must either be target shooting (and in breech of the new law) or in breech of my licence. However, if I am firing a hunting rifle used for deer shooting, with all appropriate paperwork on file at my local guarda station, then I am not target shooting and am zeroing...

Or have I gotten this wrong?

Sparks

The old Minister said that zeroing is not target shooting zara; but there's no legal definition of either. So you'd be done either way!

Oldtree

rrpc thats not a huge running cost! does the 3K include the rates, and fire and public liability insurance? how much is the authorisation?

can you give me the lowdown on the specs needed for a indoor range please?

Are there any grants (sporting or otherwise) to avail of to build one?

I find it hard to accept that it is ok to go hunting on lands and not be allowed to target practice on same lands.

rrpc

Oldtree wrote: »

rrpc thats not a huge running cost! does the 3K include the rates, and fire and public liability insurance? how much is the authorisation?

Yes. It covers all the things that we have to pay whether we shoot or not.

can you give me the lowdown on the specs needed for a indoor range please?

They're much the same as an outdoor No Danger Area range. The idea is to build it and spec it so that no round can leave the building. We had to put a baffle half way down ours and one vertical one at each side near the end, otherwise we would have had to steel plate the entire end wall, a good chunk of the wing walls and the ceiling!

It also depends on what calibre you'll be firing. Ours is for .22 standard velocity only, standing, kneeling and prone.

You'd have to give me plans of the building for me to properly work out the details. The height to the eaves would need to be known as well.

Are there any grants (sporting or otherwise) to avail of to build one?

Sports Capital Grants are available once a year. They'll only give you money if you already have the site. The general rule is you put up 30% they give you the rest. Next one will be around Feb 2009.

I find it hard to accept that it is ok to go hunting on lands and not be allowed to target practice on same lands.

Yes, it's not really fair and that's why it's important that both a definition of a range and target shooting are put into the act.

thehair

ladies and gentlemen i live in the west of ireland i got my .22 rinfire lisence
within two weeks
2 fao ask were are you going to shoot
ans outside my front door in the field across the road that great he said.
3 i do not own the field farmer said work away
4 i have full N.A.R.G.C. lisence
5 it is 300 yards long. 6 backdrop 30feet hight 100feet wide
6 if you think i am joking i will invite foxhunter243 to my house
foxhunder243 pm me and i will give you my home phone number
dinner is on me and then post a new thread no photo of were i shoot day and night and also any new moderater pm me for invite also bring
all the fullbore rifles and shoot all day nobody not even the fao will
come down there then you will know that i am no joking
i am waiting for p.m. steve

rrpc

thehair wrote: »

ladies and gentlemen i live in the west of ireland i got my .22 rinfire lisence
within two weeks
2 fao ask were are you going to shoot
ans outside my front door in the field across the road that great he said.
3 i do not own the field farmer said work away
4 i have full N.A.R.G.C. lisence
5 it is 300 yards long. 6 backdrop 30feet hight 100feet wide
6 if you think i am joking i will invite foxhunter243 to my house
foxhunder243 pm me and i will give you my home phone number
dinner is on me and then post a new thread no photo of were i shoot day and night and also any new moderater pm me for invite also bring
all the fullbore rifles and shoot all day nobody not even the fao will
come down there then you will know that i am no joking
i am waiting for p.m. steve

Steve, hate to burst your bubble there, but there are probably hundreds of people with exactly the same or even better setups than what you're talking about; Garda nods, winks and all

The question is whether it's legal or not, and with all due repect to the lads and ladies in blue, the law on firearms (as we well know here) is quite often a closed or at best a highly synopsised book to them.

So bang away, but the rest of us want a finite answer to this question and your setup is one of the many around the country that would like to hear the result.

thehair

rrpc wrote: »

Steve, hate to burst your bubble there, but there are probably hundreds of people with exactly the same or even better setups than what you're talking about; Garda nods, winks and all

The question is whether it's legal or not, and with all due repect to the lads and ladies in blue, the law on firearms (as we well know here) is quite often a closed or at best a highly synopsised book to them.

So bang away, but the rest of us want a finite answer to this question and your setup is one of the many around the country that would like to hear the result.

hi rrpc dont worry you did not burst me litter bubble;)
i am just open about were i shoot becaust there are people afraid
to shoot on land because of the law
the legal part of it . well a grey area again suprise suprise:) steve

Oldtree

thank you rrpc, will have a long think. The site is not a problem as we own a bit. I applied for my own planning for a house and did tech drawings and landscape drawings and got the permission.

can you describe more about the baffles please.

I would be keen to stick to .22

The hair, as with all thing you would not have insurance cover if you are not compliant with the law and if someone got hurt, they would take everything you have, as your own insurance would be invalid, so careful now.

rrpc

Oldtree, here's a diagram I prepared earlier that explains a baffle (hopefully).



The baffle closes off the safety angle for the shots that would otherwise not strike the butt stop. For an indoor range obviously it's the end wall that you don't want to miss and go out through the roof.

Side baffles are just the horizontal version and prevent you hitting the side walls and getting ricochets.

Oldtree

What is the exact degrees for safety angle, up, left, right and down?
Are the baffels steel?
Would a number of them staggered on the cieling/walls be sufficient for an indoor range? What about the floor?
I seem to remember a thick rubber sheet hanging in front of the steel backplate in the old range, with a trough beneath for the spent rounds. (and egg cartons on the walls to reduce sound!)
There was a ventilation system there too, and heating.
There was no seperation between detailees.

rrpc

Oldtree wrote: »

What is the exact degrees for safety angle, up, left, right and down?
Are the baffels steel?

For .22 rifle the safety angle is 7.05 degrees; in all directions. Essentially the horizontal angles only apply to the flank firing points (the ones at each end of the firing line). Again for .22 rifles the baffles are 3mm steel clad with 2" timber on 1" battens.

Would a number of them staggered on the cieling/walls be sufficient for an indoor range? What about the floor?

Placement is the key here. You can get away with one baffle on a 25 yard range if you put it in the right position. They can be vertical if they are 10m or more form the firing point, closer and they have to be angled at 25 degrees.

I seem to remember a thick rubber sheet hanging in front of the steel backplate in the old range, with a trough beneath for the spent rounds. (and egg cartons on the walls to reduce sound!)
There was a ventilation system there too, and heating.
There was no seperation between detailees.

The rubber is a backsplash curtain, the egg carton is a myth and doesn't really reduce sound. Ventilation should move 9 CuM of air a minute downrange and should be filtered to remove particulate.

Heating is optional

rrpc

Just one point to note here with regard to indoor ranges and the type of shooting you do. With target rifle at 25 yards, the 10 ring is 12.92mm in diameter. As an example, I was testing a newly developed bullet catcher system the other night and fired 120 shots at it. The catcher plate (the one that the bullets struck was 6mm steel at an angle of 30 degrees.

Another member had already fired about 120 shots, and my 120 were all 9.0 or better (100 were 9.5 or better) - that's an impact diameter of 17mm!

The mild steel 6mm plate pitted in the centre from the bullet strikes.

When the Garda ballistics section designed the range safety features, they insisted on 5mm steel on the back wall covered in 2" timber on 1" battens. Without any intermediate protection, we would have been through the timber, the 5mm steel and the concrete block wall (cavity block) within 6 months of re-opening. We placed 10mm steel plate in front of the timber and were through that 6 months ago. We then put telephone books in front of the steel and have had to change them twice since then.

Hence the bullet catcher prototype.

rrpc - the backstops in DURC have been set years ago and have not needed to be replaced.

You shoot through a plywood target holder (which does need to be replaced!) and into 1/4 inch angled steel (I think its 1/4). The bullet hits and slides down into the ground, there is minimal pitting on those plates.

Sandy22

rrpc wrote: »

For .22 rifle the safety angle is 7.05 degrees; in all directions. Essentially the horizontal angles only apply to the flank firing points (the ones at each end of the firing line). Again for .22 rifles the baffles are 3mm steel clad with 2" timber on 1" battens.

Do you by any chance have the corresponding parameters for fullbore, say for shooting conforming with the UK 4500j limit?

rrpc

Deleted User wrote: »

rrpc - the backstops in DURC have been set years ago and have not needed to be replaced.

You shoot through a plywood target holder (which does need to be replaced!) and into 1/4 inch angled steel (I think its 1/4). The bullet hits and slides down into the ground, there is minimal pitting on those plates.

That's what we used to have Zara, but remember that only 1/10th of the shots fired are hitting the same place and that depends on you clipping the target on in exactly the same place each time.

Our targets have over 7,000 rounds fired on each one, all within (roughly) 25mm diameter and the majority within 19mm diameter.

It's phenomenal the kind of damage that can create.

rrpc

Sandy22 wrote: »

Do you by any chance have the corresponding parameters for fullbore, say for shooting conforming with the UK 4500j limit?

Fullbore rifle angles in mils (AFAIK) are 40/40: vertical/horizontal.

That's single shot rifle/carbine

A mil is 17.778 degrees.

There is a further level specified in JSP403 for target shooting (supported) and that's 21.5 mils.

In general it's better to go for the larger angle to allow more flexibility in shooting.

Indoor is more complicated because you have Defence Zone, Backplate Zone and Bullet Catcher Zone.

The figures I quoted for indoors are extrapolated backwards fom the zone measurements which are in mils+mm.