Hats off to the Italians...

...when they re-elect Berlusconi. He's been through ten criminal trials, has been accused of money laundering, corruption, tax evasion, links with organised crime and the Mafia, just about everything short of standing over a body with a knife dripping blood. He controls 90% of their media and brooks no criticism. His career is littered with scandal after scandal. And yet they don't spend all their time wondering are they the worst little country ever and saying it wouldn't happen anywhere else...

Dirk Gently

What's your point?

wes

At least we can point at someone who is worse that us .

Just gotta admire the way they look at what might happen, and not what has gone before, no matter how bad that record is. It's a bit of a contrast to the over indulgent self analysis we like to engage in about Irish leaders, that often end in nonsense about the rest of the world laughing at us.

El Stuntman

Deleted User wrote: »

...when they re-elect Berlusconi. He's been through ten criminal trials, has been accused of money laundering, corruption, tax evasion, links with organised crime and the Mafia, just about everything short of standing over a body with a knife dripping blood.

I thought most of the above were prerequisites for getting elected in Italy - Andreotti got in more than 10 times despite/because of being best buds with il cosa nostra

Dirk Gently

So what you're saying is that money laundering, corruption and tax evasion should be rewarded so long as there is some kind of abstract potential for the guilty party to make a decent decision sometime in the future, maybe.

brianthebard

Berlesconi is the only Italian to serve a full term in sixty odd years, that alone makes him more electable to Italians than most others. Not that I like him or agree with his positions, but you have to appreciate that success.

The_Minister

clown bag wrote: »

So what you're saying is that money laundering, corruption and tax evasion should be rewarded so long as there is some kind of abstract potential for the guilty party to make a decent decision sometime in the future, maybe.

I think his point is that the Italiens don't have loads of middle-class housewives exclaiming loudly at dinner "only in Ireland", then parroting whatever dull line they have gleamed from Fintan O'Toole that particular time.

The_Minister

The_Minister wrote: »

I think his point is that the Italiens don't have loads of middle-class housewives exclaiming loudly at dinner "only in Ireland", then parroting whatever dull line they have gleamed from Fintan O'Toole that particular time.

Precisely.

I've seen thread after thread here with people wailing and gnashing their teeth over Berties clothes, his elocution, his appearance, his history, monies received, his stories...and the constant drone is that this wouldn't happen anywhere else.

As if.

gandalf

Those Italians are obviously following FF's bad example Conor

gandalf

gandalf wrote: »

Those Italians are obviously following FF's bad example Conor

It's contagious, and it don't respect national boundaries!

gandalf

So what you are saying Conor is because the Italians do it then we should excuse Bertie eh. Is that the best you can do? I think the word for this is pathetic. The FF cheerleaders are discovering what the bottom of the barrel looks like :rolleyes:

bonkey

I'll trade y'all Bertie for Blocher if y'like.

leninbenjamin

gandalf wrote: »

The FF cheerleaders are discovering what the bottom of the barrel looks like :rolleyes:

don't think you can ever really apply that phrase to a party in power...

The_Minister

gandalf wrote: »

So what you are saying Conor is because the Italians do it then we should excuse Bertie eh. Is that the best you can do? I think the word for this is pathetic. The FF cheerleaders are discovering what the bottom of the barrel looks like :rolleyes:

You seem to misunderstand what he is saying. He is bitching about all those people who claimed that Ireland's standing was diminished by holding onto Bertie.

peasant

The_Minister wrote: »

You seem to misunderstand what he is saying. He is bitching about all those people who claimed that Ireland's standing was diminished by holding onto Bertie.

Italian politics has been well established as the laughing stock of Europe for decades now.
No need to follow their example.


On the other hand, the Italian people effectively governs itself, as hardly any governement stays in power long enough to see anything through (and if it does, it is subsequently reversed by the following governement)

So maybe there's a lesson to be learned here ...governement of the people instead of politicians

gandalf

gandalf wrote: »

So what you are saying Conor is because the Italians do it then we should excuse Bertie eh.

Not at all. I never suggested that, hinted at it, or meant it.

What I am saying is that the constant whining here about Irish politicians - and particularly our soon to be gone Taoiseach - being the worst in the world, or at least the most crooked, and the idea that the rest of the world is studying us and laughing, is nonsense. In other countries, they treat concepts like honesty and transparency with more contempt. Let's not pretend we are victims and its all rosy in other countries.

El Stuntman

this is a bit surreal - holding up the Italians as examples of how to deal with (allegedly) corrupt politicans

<checks calendar> no, it's 22 April not the 1st

El Stuntman

El Stuntman wrote: »

this is a bit surreal - holding up the Italians as examples of how to deal with (allegedly) corrupt politicans

Hold on.

This is at least the third person who has misinterpreted what I said.

It's not a difficult argument. I am merely saying that, out there, in the real world, other countries face a lot worse and don't bat an eyelid. I am not holding them up as paragons of virtue, I am not saying we should copy their approach, I am not saying our Taoiseach should join the Mafia. I am simply saying that while honesty may be the most important thing in some Utopia, and to everyone here who hates FF and works back from that position, in other political systems they really don't give a hoot.

gandalf

Conor please stop trying to excuse Aherns behaviour like this is extremely weak even for a hardened FF supporter.

In the real world people have to pay taxes and declare their earnings. The excuse that he was undergoing personal hardship have been blown away given the amount of cash he was awash in. It is perfectly reasonable for people to question why he was given this cash and what exactly was expected for this cash.

The_Minister

gandalf wrote: »

Conor please stop trying to excuse Aherns behaviour like this is extremely weak even for a hardened FF supporter.

Exactly what thread are you reading?

He is making the very valid point that Ireland is not unique in having this kind of situation, and that it doesn't damage our international credibility to have Bertie as Taoiseach.
He has said nothing to excuse Ahern's behaviour.

gandalf

gandalf wrote: »

Conor please stop trying to excuse Aherns behaviour

I never have. I can only assume at this stage that you are being facetious. You cannot keep missing the point surely.

Will I link at least 10 posts from me condemning him or do you want me to bother?

I said he was wrong. I have said so since October 2006. Even within the past ten minutes on some other thread here I have said so.

But I am also saying that I'm not losing sleep about what he did, or pretending that like yeah it really really matters to me that someone with more money than sense gave some of it to him.

gandalf wrote: »

In the real world people have to pay taxes and declare their earnings.

True. And in the real world, politicians do bad things. They shouldn't, but they do. Only in Ireland does life stop over it.

peasant

Deleted User wrote: »

But I am also saying that I'm not losing sleep about what he did, or pretending that like yeah it really really matters to me that someone with more money than sense gave some of it to him.

True. And in the real world, politicians do bad things. They shouldn't, but they do. Only in Ireland does life stop over it.

aha ...so we just resign ourselves to the "fact" that a) all politicians are basically not to be trusted and b) ours aren't necessarily the worst and then we just let them get on with it, yes?

rockbeer

Deleted User wrote: »

Only in Ireland does life stop over it.

Simply not true. Many other countries have concerns over corruption. Just because Italians aren't so bothered as some other folk doesn't mean we have to model our attitude on theirs.

Deleted User wrote: »

...I'm not losing sleep about what he did, or pretending that like yeah it really really matters to me...

Personally I'm deeply relieved that not everyone in Ireland is as jaded and cynical as you, to be able to shrug and not care. It's good that people care. I hope they keep caring. I wish they cared more in Italy. I find it amazing that you can make a virtue out of not caring, but even more so that you then hold up a nation as cynically corrupt as Italy in support of your lack of concern.

ballooba

Deleted User wrote: »

...when they re-elect Berlusconi. He's been through ten criminal trials, has been accused of money laundering, corruption, tax evasion, links with organised crime and the Mafia, just about everything short of standing over a body with a knife dripping blood. He controls 90% of their media and brooks no criticism. His career is littered with scandal after scandal. And yet they don't spend all their time wondering are they the worst little country ever and saying it wouldn't happen anywhere else...

Thankfully the rest of the country has more wholesome values than you.

ballooba

ballooba wrote: »

Thankfully the rest of the country has more wholesome values than you.

With respect, you don't know me at all and you cannot make sweeping comments about my values on the basis of my attitude to the Mahon Tribunal. Do you judge all people by their stance on that Tribunal or just me? And when exactly did this become a thread about me anyway?

jmayo

Like it or not Conor to me and a good few other people on here this thread looks like it is condoning Ahern's activities by comparing him to what the Italians put up with from some of their leaders.

You are affectively asking why we are getting excited about Ahern's situation when there are countries that put up with much worse.
Rather than comparing us to Italy why not compare us to lets say Sweden, Australia or New Zealand where people either get sacked or just resign at any hint of corruption or misdemeanour.
Hell if you compare him to Mugabe he comes across as Padre Pio and we come across as a bunch of whinging ungrateful spiteful malcontents.

It's all relatives just like certain weddings.

The_Minister

The only points that Conor as made on this thread is that Bertie's finances do in no way diminish our international standing, and we are not the only country whose leader has dodgy finances, regardless of what certain whingers say.
I agree with him, but I was still delighted when O'Malley put the pressure on, and I was glad to see him go.

ballooba

Deleted User wrote: »

With respect, you don't know me at all and you cannot make sweeping comments about my values on the basis of my attitude to the Mahon Tribunal. Do you judge all people by their stance on that Tribunal or just me? And when exactly did this become a thread about me anyway?

You have shown that integrity in politics is not something you believe in or value. Thankfully these are things that other people in our society value.

Just because Italian politics are brought into disrepute does not lessen the disrepute brought on Irish politics by Bertie Ahern and the CJ haughey school of Fianna Fail.

You started this thread. You expressed your own views which are different than those widely held in the population so the thread is about you and your views.

oscarBravo

It's ok for the thread to be about Conor74's views, but not about him.

Just a friendly pointer, like.

CerebralCortex

Deleted User wrote: »

Just gotta admire the way they look at what might happen, and not what has gone before, no matter how bad that record is. It's a bit of a contrast to the over indulgent self analysis we like to engage in about Irish leaders, that often end in nonsense about the rest of the world laughing at us.

Oh my heart bleeds. :rolleyes:

ballooba

oscarBravo wrote: »

It's ok for the thread to be about Conor74's views, but not about him.

Just a friendly pointer, like.

10-4 OB.;)

fly_agaric

Deleted User wrote: »

And yet they don't spend all their time wondering are they the worst little country ever and saying it wouldn't happen anywhere else...

How do you know that those who voted for the opposition are not thinking things like that?

Are you jealous that our own "loveable rouges" (to FF supporters) aren't as stylish and dashing as Berlusconi??:pac:

ninty9er

Only for laws prohibiting criminally prosecuted (or whatever the correct phrase is), there is no reason why a convictred rapist, murderer or whatever you're having yourself, could not be the best Taoiseach ever to serve.

What Conor is getting at is that the incinuation that your bank account and ethics could be a shady as crude oil, does not mean you're not fit to serve in public office.

ninty9er

fly_agaric wrote: »

Are you jealous that our own "loveable rouges" (to FF supporters) aren't as stylish and dashing as Berlusconi??:pac:

John McGuinness would be an exception, he has the empire, but I know of no shady dealings surrounding him though.

ballooba

ninty9er wrote: »

What Conor is getting at is that the incinuation that your bank account and ethics could be a shady as crude oil, does not mean you're not fit to serve in public office.

This is not Italy it's Ireland. We're seeing the true colours of the Fianna Failers on this thread anyway.

ninty9er

ballooba wrote: »

This is not Italy it's Ireland. We're seeing the true colours of the Fianna Failers on this thread anyway.

And we're seing the true bitterness of those who don't understand that ALL that matters, is how politicians SERVE.

Time Magazine

I think we should base our environmental policy on Italy's too. A fine example.

Not like those Swedes who too busy caring about ethics and standards to get things done.

Really lads. This is equivalent to saying "I've found one country with worse broadband penetration rates than ours."

rockbeer

ninty9er wrote: »

What Conor is getting at is that the incinuation that your bank account and ethics could be a shady as crude oil, does not mean you're not fit to serve in public office.

Really? So presumably you'd be happy to let a suspected paedophile work with children on the basis that s/he might be a great teacher?

ninty9er wrote: »

And we're seing the true bitterness of those who don't understand that ALL that matters, is how politicians SERVE.

If I accept a bribe or sweetener in exchange for a favour, then that is how I've served... corruptly. And that has consequences for others, the ones who don't get the favours or pay the bribes. Don't you get it? Or does it just not matter to you? Maybe it would if you found yourself on the wrong end of it.

Anyway, it's interesting to hear all you FF lads acknowledging that Bertie is corrupt, despite all his denials. Maybe that's some sort of progress. All you need to do now is learn to care about it.

ballooba

ninty9er wrote: »

And we're seing the true bitterness of those who don't understand that ALL that matters, is how politicians SERVE.

No bitterness here. Bertie will soon be gone and he will be remembered for the scumbag he is. I got what I wanted.

It's clear from your comments above that integrity means nothing to you and that having a convicted rapist in office would not bother you. Try testing that one with the female voters on the doorsteps.

peasant

ninty9er wrote: »

Only for laws prohibiting criminally prosecuted (or whatever the correct phrase is), there is no reason why a convictred rapist, murderer or whatever you're having yourself, could not be the best Taoiseach ever to serve.

What Conor is getting at is that the incinuation that your bank account and ethics could be a shady as crude oil, does not mean you're not fit to serve in public office.

I just needed to quote this so that this classic doesn't dissapear in case you decide to edit it later and then claim "mature recollection", denying you ever said it.

This is by far the most ridiculous and sick attidude towards ethics and morals in politics that I have ever seen displayed ...and I mean ever ..and I have been around for a while.

You might want to add that first sentence there to your signature

ballooba

peasant wrote: »

You might want to add that first sentence there to your signature

Might even add it myself.

sovtek

ninty9er wrote: »

And we're seing the true bitterness of those who don't understand that ALL that matters, is how politicians SERVE.

Being that both Bertie and Berlusconi have served atrociously it should give pause to the notion that corruption and servitude aren't linked.

El Stuntman

sovtek wrote: »

Being that both Bertie and Berlusconi have served atrociously it should give pause to the notion that corruption and servitude aren't linked.

a little harsh sovtek?

CerebralCortex

El Stuntman wrote: »

a little harsh sovtek?

In what way?

sovtek

El Stuntman wrote: »

a little harsh sovtek?

Maybe but I don't think so.
In Italy I heard people are being paid 7-800 a month and there are no jobs. Here there are jobs (right now) and average salary is 2000 a week..but buys you what 800 does in Italy.

El Stuntman

sovtek wrote: »

Maybe but I don't think so.
In Italy I heard people are being paid 7-800 a month and there are no jobs. Here there are jobs (right now) and average salary is 2000 a week..but buys you what 800 does in Italy.

sovtek I don't know where you pull these 'facts' out of

average salary of 2k per week = 104k p.a. :eek:

I'm off to get me an average job!! (the real actual average salary is about 35k)

no seriously, I'm no lover of Bertie but I think he has had some achievements in office - N.I. peace process being the main one. Some economic indicators ticked up on his watch also

Berlusconi on the other hand...:rolleyes:

sovtek

El Stuntman wrote: »

sovtek I don't know where you pull these 'facts' out of

average salary of 2k per week = 104k p.a. :eek:

I'm off to get me an average job!! (the real actual average salary is about 35k)

no seriously, I'm no lover of Bertie but I think he has had some achievements in office - N.I. peace process being the main one. Some economic indicators ticked up on his watch also

Berlusconi on the other hand...:rolleyes:

I would think that's an obvious typo

Bertie achievements...the plastic bag tax...although it's now being used as yet another way to extract money from us.
The economy was ticking up before Bertie as I understand it. How that has been mismanaged is quite obvious.

Oh jesus yet another "leader" wanting to jump on the NI peace process bandwagon. The people that should get credit for that are the grassroots campaigns of ordinary people that were sick of the **** going on in their backyard...it wasn't Clinton, Bertie, Blair...Feck it...nevermind

ninty9er

sovtek wrote: »

Oh jesus yet another "leader" wanting to jump on the NI peace process bandwagon. The people that should get credit for that are the grassroots campaigns of ordinary people that were sick of the **** going on in their backyard...it wasn't Clinton, Bertie, Blair...Feck it...nevermind

That attitude sickens me. Bertie Ahern has given his life to politics and even Enda Kenny and Eamon Gilmore gave him his due in the Dáil chamber yesterday, singling the peace process out as the defining achievement of his career.

Now if his greatest political rivals can admit it then I see no reason why you can't.

He's no saint, and nobody ever said he was. But look over TV footage from 1998 and you'll see that Bertie Ahern attended his mother's funeral before returning to Belfast to hammer out the finer details. You do the same and see how you like it when some nobody on the internet calls you a scumbag!!

rockbeer wrote: »

If I accept a bribe or sweetener in exchange for a favour, then that is how I've served... corruptly. And that has consequences for others, the ones who don't get the favours or pay the bribes. Don't you get it? Or does it just not matter to you? Maybe it would if you found yourself on the wrong end of it.

Taking wads of cash was stupid, but not ONE, anywhere on this PLANET has yet linked it to any bribery. Cop on and let the tribunals decide if Owen O'Callaghan bribed Bertie. If he did, again stupid, but nothing extraordinary for the time in which it took place.

rockbeer wrote: »

Anyway, it's interesting to hear all you FF lads acknowledging that Bertie is corrupt, despite all his denials. Maybe that's some sort of progress. All you need to do now is learn to care about it.

I am yet to see he is corrupt, but if anyone does ever get around to proving it rather than speculating on it; I will accept that.


There's a whiff of bullsh1t in here:(

rockbeer

ninty9er wrote: »

Taking wads of cash was stupid, but not ONE, anywhere on this PLANET has yet linked it to any bribery.

How naive can you be? You really think wealthy businessmen are in the habit of handing out large wads of cash to influential politicians in exchange for... nothing? Cop on yourself.

ballooba

ninty9er wrote: »

You do the same and see how you like it when some nobody on the internet calls you a scumbag!!

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....