Has anyone else had enough of the league???

The Chessplayer

I was just thinking about how uninspiring a competition the league is. It seriously lacks credibility and gate receipts could only ever be described as sluggish. All you have to do is switch on Setanta Sports on a week night to see another televised hurling match with one man and his dog up in the stands.

The GAA is crying out for a revamped Championship. Scrap the league and give us one competition - something like the AFL set-up or the Champions League format...none of the provincial nonsense. In any case, the prestige of the league is undermined by the fact that half of the established senior players generally don't even make an appearance until April and, as we've seen in Kerry this year, a few players head off back-packing.

I don't want to touch on too many issues in one post, but they all seem to be connected. As far as I am concerned the GAA's stance on amateurism is spurious. I would propose semi-professionalism in the inter-county, and the merging of a some of the weaker counties, especially in Hurling, e.g. Wicklow+Carlow, or Kildare+Meath and so on. 32 county status can always be maintained in club competitions.

Tomthepost

:d
Is It April 1st?

An Citeog

I actually thought you were serious, right up until the merging of counties bit. There's so much wrong in such a short post that I don't even know where to start. Suffice to say, you're wrong!:p

Dapos

The Chessplayer wrote: »

I was just thinking about how uninspiring a competition the league is. It seriously lacks credibility and gate receipts could only ever be described as sluggish. All you have to do is switch on Setanta Sports on a week night to see another televised hurling match with one man and his dog up in the stands.

The GAA is crying out for a revamped Championship. Scrap the league and give us one competition - something like the AFL set-up or the Champions League format...none of the provincial nonsense. In any case, the prestige of the league is undermined by the fact that half of the established senior players generally don't even make an appearance until April and, as we've seen in Kerry this year, a few players head off back-packing.

I don't want to touch on too many issues in one post, but they all seem to be connected. As far as I am concerned the GAA's stance on amateurism is spurious. I would propose semi-professionalism in the inter-county, and the merging of a some of the weaker counties, especially in Hurling, e.g. Wicklow+Carlow, or Kildare+Meath and so on. 32 county status can always be maintained in club competitions.

Man.. did u read over what u said?

First off, as i have mentioned before, i think the new football league format is a big improvement. Plenty of close games in Div 1 & Div 2 was competitive too, maybe even more so if cork hadn't gone on strike.

Credibility i would question. Will there is always the "it's only the league" mentality around this competition, plenty of teams have gone into the competion with clear goals. Kerry, galway, derry, monaghan, dublin etc in the football, tipp and galway in the hurling. Also on the Kerry comment, count the number all-ireland panel players who played in the first league match.

But prob the only point i would come close to agreeing with u on is the attendance. This IMO is just the GAA not getting there act together. Give tickets out free to kids, promote the games more for feck sake, and make the tickets cheaper. Also the times some of the games are on, can be a bit crazy.

How do you think amature would handle a championship style format from febuary to august? We would never get the intensity of the championship. i won't even comment on the semi-pro bit.

Finally the merging of teams! man if they proposed to merge kerry and cork that would not go down well!!!


anyway, sorry for the rant. don't know what came over me

kevmy

Stick to playing the chess

patmac

kevmy wrote: »

Stick to playing the chess

Ah it all makes sense now didn't they scrap the League Chess cup and merged Meath with Westmeath, and Cork with Kerry in the All-Ireland Chess Championship and wasn't it a great success altogether.

The Chessplayer

An Citeog wrote: »

I actually thought you were serious, right up until the merging of counties bit. There's so much wrong in such a short post that I don't even know where to start. Suffice to say, you're wrong!:p

What's wrong with merging weaker counties? County boundaries are often arbitrary and Carlow + Wicklow would work in hurling. Provincial championships should be consigned to history. The present set up is backward and a bit ridiculous to be honest.

cruiserweight

The Chessplayer wrote: »

What's wrong with merging weaker counties? County boundaries are often arbitrary and Carlow + Wicklow would work in hurling. Provincial championships should be consigned to history. The present set up is backward and a bit ridiculous to be honest.

Wicklow have enough problems internally, without throwing Carlow into the mix.

I think provincial championships are great. You have huge intensity and local rivalries, that may be diluted in a larger champiosnhip. Smaller teams also have a chance to win some silverware, like Sligo last year. It still means a lot to a lot of people.

As for the league. It gives teams a great oppurtunity to test themselves against teams of roughly the same strength, over a series of matches. It also gives teams chances to try new players, playing styles and tune players fitness.

As for your championship revamp ideas, perhaps if we had a competition where teams are placed into groups based on strength. Then the teams play in a round robin series and the top two play each other to be champions. Throw in promotion and relegation. Now that would be a good idea, why don't we have something like that. Wait a minute ...........

The Chessplayer

Dapos wrote: »

But prob the only point i would come close to agreeing with u on is the attendance. This IMO is just the GAA not getting there act together. Give tickets out free to kids, promote the games more for feck sake, and make the tickets cheaper. Also the times some of the games are on, can be a bit crazy.

How do you think amature would handle a championship style format from febuary to august? We would never get the intensity of the championship. i won't even comment on the semi-pro bit.

Finally the merging of teams! man if they proposed to merge kerry and cork that would not go down well!!!


anyway, sorry for the rant. don't know what came over me

Who said anything about merging Cork & Kerry? I was referring to weaker counties, e.g. Westmeath/Roscommon in hurling etc

If you have to give out free tickets then there is a problem. The GAA would be better off diverting funds into clubs than flogging the dead horse that is the league in its present format. We need one competition, something like the Aussie Rules set up.

Semi-pro is the way to go. Can never understand why Dessie Farrell & co are always bending over backwards to appease the raving "amateur status" looney fringe. Anyway all this ranting about amateurs and semi-pros: the League of Ireland is semi-pro and they seem to manage perfectly well.

The Chessplayer

cruiserweight wrote: »

Wicklow have enough problems internally, without throwing Carlow into the mix.

Absolute cobblers.

cruiserweight

The Chessplayer wrote: »

Absolute cobblers.

How so? There is internal fighting within the county over player selections etc. They could not manage to field a team for a minor championship match, because there was no transport for six players. Problems need to be sorted internally before merging counties. Maybe you just picked a bad example.

Although I would be against merging counties. What is the purpose or point? If counties are weak, they need to develop the games from the grassroots level. Not throw two weak counties together and hope they become strong. What happens if they are successful, seperate them again? Why not split up more successful teams, rather than merge weaker ones? Less administrative problems for county boards

Scootay

The Chessplayer wrote: »

I was referring to weaker counties, e.g. Westmeath/Roscommon in hurling etc

It may have escaped your attention but Westmeath were crowned Division 2 Champions on Sunday and have won the Christy Ring cup every time they've competed for it.

The Chessplayer

cruiserweight wrote: »

How so? There is internal fighting within the county over player selections etc. They could not manage to field a team for a minor championship match, because there was no transport for six players. Problems need to be sorted internally before merging counties. Maybe you just picked a bad example.

Although I would be against merging counties. What is the purpose or point? If counties are weak, they need to develop the games from the grassroots level. Not throw two weak counties together and hope they become strong. What happens if they are successful, seperate them again? Why not split up more successful teams, rather than merge weaker ones? Less administrative problems for county boards

It's down to quality of football & hurling. For example, div 4 football is not pretty to watch. Better quality - bigger crowds. In the case of Carlow and Wicklow I would suggest merging them and giving it a new name: Wicklow (the Wick from Wicklow + the Low from Carlow).

The Chessplayer

Scootay wrote: »

It may have escaped your attention but Westmeath were crowned Division 2 Champions on Sunday and have won the Christy Ring cup every time they've competed for it.

They are still second stream Leinster, and can't compete even against Laois.

Scootay

No denying they're second stream but they're closing the gap. The game against Dublin next month will be very interesting.

Carlow, who you want to merge with Wicklow, were the other division 2 finalists by the way. As far as I'm concerned picking the two division 2 finalists as weaker counties in need of merging is a sure sign of your deep knowledge of the game.

I'm certainly not sick of the league. I'm off to see Westmeath in their second final in seven days on Saturday evening.

patmac

The Chessplayer wrote: »

They are still second stream Leinster, and can't compete even against Laois.

I suspect trolling here either that or your very new to Gaelic games and have a very limited knowledge on the subject as said before stick to the chess.

cruiserweight

The Chessplayer wrote: »

Better quality - bigger crowds.

I would disagree, bigger crowds are a result of success and rivalries. Games like Cork v Tipperary in hurling and Mayo v Galway in the football, will always attract big crowds. As teams get further in the championship or the league the attandences go up. Look at the Dublin v Meath game this weekend as an example, sold out, not because there would be quality football on show but because of the rivalry.

Scootay

The league this year saw Kilkenny win their first game of football in god alone knows how long. It saw Westmeath and Carlow, Donegal and Leitrim and South Down and Monaghan play for national titles in hurling. This coming weekend will see Kerry, Derry, Westmeath, Dublin, Fermanagh, Wexford, Tipperary and Offaly play for four national football titles. That may mean nothing to some people but it'll mean something to any true fan of the counties invovled if not of the game itself.

Why would anyone in their right mind want to get rid of the league?

An Citeog

The Chessplayer wrote: »

Who said anything about merging Cork & Kerry? I was referring to weaker counties, e.g. Westmeath/Roscommon in hurling etc

If you have to give out free tickets then there is a problem. The GAA would be better off diverting funds into clubs than flogging the dead horse that is the league in its present format. We need one competition, something like the Aussie Rules set up.

Semi-pro is the way to go. Can never understand why Dessie Farrell & co are always bending over backwards to appease the raving "amateur status" looney fringe. Anyway all this ranting about amateurs and semi-pros: the League of Ireland is semi-pro and they seem to manage perfectly well.

I call bullshít! Who the hell would want to play for Westcommon? Do you propose merging these counties irl aswell or is it just for the purpose of gaelic games?

You see, I'm having a hard time understanding what your point is. You say that funds should be diverted into the clubs but in the next breath that the players should go semi-pro ie. funds being diverted to them. Which is it?

As for your raving "amateur status" looney fringe. I presume you're talking about the vast majority of those involved in the GAA who are opposed to pay for play and hence, not actually a fringe. Oh, and using the EL as an example of how to run a competition!:D

Not very good at this trolling lark, are you?;)

MrJoeSoap

Seriously though, I've been to a lot of games this campaign, clocked up quite a few miles in the process and enjoyed every second of it. The administration side of things, with the Cork debacle, the playoff nonsense etc could have been better handled. But as a concept it works fine.

No to "change for changes sake".

Danno

The league will be a fine competition as soon as the transformation to 8 team divisions are complete. I am quite happy to see Laois hurling relegated along with Wexford Antrim and Offaly. It will mean a much much more competitive league for us next year as opposed to the Division 2 we won last year.

blackbelt

In fairness Chessplayer,this has to be a shoe in for a nomination for worst thread of the year and indeed worst post.As pointed out by An Citeog,where the hell are you coming from?

The league is an important competition which tests teams before they head into the real business end of the year.The league is also a competition which further develops young players before the championship and indeed is a further warmup for players to get into peak condition for the summer.

The only point I agree with somewhat is the attendence for some matches.Matches in February on a bleak Sunday afternoon are not attended very well and this is very notable.I saw the attendence for a McKenna Cup Match between Derry and Armagh and it was so sedate you'd hardly think there was rivalry there.As the league progresses,the weather gets better and the days get longer,more people do come out but the GAA are in the wrong for not marketing the league.

We saw last year that they heavily marketed Dublin v Tyrone in Croker for the Division 1 first round under lights only to save face.Why can't the same amount of marketing be put into a Mayo-Galway match or Derry-Donegal?I for one have not had enough of the league but I am really looking forward to the Championship.The league is important and fills the void between September and May along with the various cups such as O Byrne and McKenna.Usually after September,the real fans will then turn their attention to the re-commencement of the club championships.

To take the league away would de-value the championship and to merge weaker teams would be nothing short of a farce.

The Chessplayer

Scootay wrote: »

No denying they're second stream but they're closing the gap. The game against Dublin next month will be very interesting.

Carlow, who you want to merge with Wicklow, were the other division 2 finalists by the way. As far as I'm concerned picking the two division 2 finalists as weaker counties in need of merging is a sure sign of your deep knowledge of the game.

I'm certainly not sick of the league. I'm off to see Westmeath in their second final in seven days on Saturday evening.

In terms of hurling, I'm not having a go at Westmeath or Carlow, but in Hurling the skills gap is undeniable, although Westmeath might be knocking on the door of Offaly and Laois in a few years.

A couple of years back Wicklow bet Armagh by about 5-13 points in hurling. Similarly, if WW went up against Kilkenny, KK would give Wicklow a similar hiding. The fact of the matter is that not as many people proportionally play hurling in the weaker counties. I don't think Armagh merging with anyone up North would pay dividends, but the like of Wicklow merging with Carlow could compete against Wexford, and Kildare+Meath would be another one.

The Chessplayer

Scootay wrote: »

The league this year saw Kilkenny win their first game of football in god alone knows how long. It saw Westmeath and Carlow, Donegal and Leitrim and South Down and Monaghan play for national titles in hurling. This coming weekend will see Kerry, Derry, Westmeath, Dublin, Fermanagh, Wexford, Tipperary and Offaly play for four national football titles. That may mean nothing to some people but it'll mean something to any true fan of the counties invovled if not of the game itself.

Why would anyone in their right mind want to get rid of the league?

I don't know why people are concerned with developing football in KK - it's never going to happen. These "national titles" in hurling are meaningless. How can Monaghan ever compete in Hurling!!?!

Comment about "true fans" is rubbish. I think GAA is constantly losing ground because there are too many GAA fans that preserving the set-up will inevitably reap rewards such as Kilkenny fielding a good football team, or Monaghan winning an All-Ireland hurling title in 2020...it's never going to happen.

The Chessplayer

patmac wrote: »

I suspect trolling here either that or your very new to Gaelic games and have a very limited knowledge on the subject as said before stick to the chess.

What are you mouthing about? Nothing to add as usual

The Chessplayer

An Citeog wrote: »

I call bullshít! Who the hell would want to play for Westcommon? Do you propose merging these counties irl aswell or is it just for the purpose of gaelic games?

You see, I'm having a hard time understanding what your point is. You say that funds should be diverted into the clubs but in the next breath that the players should go semi-pro ie. funds being diverted to them. Which is it?

As for your raving "amateur status" looney fringe. I presume you're talking about the vast majority of those involved in the GAA who are opposed to pay for play and hence, not actually a fringe. Oh, and using the EL as an example of how to run a competition!:D

Not very good at this trolling lark, are you?;)

Answer me this: why do you think that amateurism is central to what the GAA is all about? Why is it so important and tell me clearly why it should be retained.

My point about the league is that club competition is better, and the league is wasting alot of people's time.

Semi-pro has worked in rugby and in AFL. We're being left behind while the GAA is being run by thick ignorant plonkers like Nicky Brennan and Sean Kelly.

cruiserweight

The Chessplayer wrote: »

In terms of hurling, I'm not having a go at Westmeath or Carlow, but in Hurling the skills gap is undeniable, although Westmeath might be knocking on the door of Offaly and Laois in a few years.

A couple of years back Wicklow bet Armagh by about 5-13 points in hurling. Similarly, if WW went up against Kilkenny, KK would give Wicklow a similar hiding. The fact of the matter is that not as many people proportionally play hurling in the weaker counties. I don't think Armagh merging with anyone up North would pay dividends, but the like of Wicklow merging with Carlow could compete against Wexford, and Kildare+Meath would be another one.

The Chessplayer wrote: »

I don't know why people are concerned with developing football in KK - it's never going to happen. These "national titles" in hurling are meaningless. How can Monaghan ever compete in Hurling!!?!

Comment about "true fans" is rubbish. I think GAA is constantly losing ground because there are too many GAA fans that preserving the set-up will inevitably reap rewards such as Kilkenny fielding a good football team, or Monaghan winning an All-Ireland hurling title in 2020...it's never going to happen.

The Chessplayer wrote: »

What are you mouthing about? Nothing to add as usual

The Chessplayer wrote: »

Answer me this: why do you think that amateurism is central to what the GAA is all about? Why is it so important and tell me clearly why it should be retained.

My point about the league is that club competition is better, and the league is wasting alot of people's time.

Semi-pro has worked in rugby and in AFL. We're being left behind while the GAA is being run by thick ignorant plonkers like Nicky Brennan and Sean Kelly.

Maybe you should change the thread title to "Has anyone else had enough of the GAA???". So the league is crap? Being amateur is stupid and crap? Hurling Championship is a joke? People running the GAA are plonkers? What exactly do you like about GAA?

The Chessplayer

blackbelt wrote: »

I saw the attendence for a McKenna Cup Match between Derry and Armagh and it was so sedate you'd hardly think there was rivalry there.As the league progresses,the weather gets better and the days get longer,more people do come out but the GAA are in the wrong for not marketing the league.

We saw last year that they heavily marketed Dublin v Tyrone in Croker for the Division 1 first round under lights only to save face.Why can't the same amount of marketing be put into a Mayo-Galway match or Derry-Donegal?

2 points - the O'Byrne Cup and McKenna Cup always get good crowds. Have a look at attendences for the first few league matches and compare them.

Dublin v Tyrone was a once-off because of the flood lights.

The Chessplayer

cruiserweight wrote: »

Maybe you should change the thread title to "Has anyone else had enough of the GAA???". So the league is crap? Being amateur is stupid and crap? Hurling Championship is a joke? People running the GAA are plonkers? What exactly do you like about GAA?

You're taking it the wrong way. Just trying to generate debate on these topics. Even the dog on the street knows that the hurling format is all wrong. It HAS to be scrapped - and that means getting on with it rather than sitting down with a bunch of Galway men adamant on retaining the Connacht Championships.

I think the GAA's reasons for remaining amateur are spurious and disingenuous. Let the clubs stay amateur and inter-county go semi-pro. Similar to rugby and aussie rules the amateur clubs feed their local semi-pro clubs (or in this case counties.

The GAA should not be run by elected committees, but by experienced business people with set out guidelines from the provincial councils.

An Citeog

The Chessplayer wrote: »

Answer me this: why do you think that amateurism is central to what the GAA is all about? Why is it so important and tell me clearly why it should be retained.

My point about the league is that club competition is better, and the league is wasting alot of people's time.

Semi-pro has worked in rugby and in AFL. We're being left behind while the GAA is being run by thick ignorant plonkers like Nicky Brennan and Sean Kelly.

The Chessplayer wrote: »

You're taking it the wrong way. Just trying to generate debate on these topics. Even the dog on the street knows that the hurling format is all wrong. It HAS to be scrapped - and that means getting on with it rather than sitting down with a bunch of Galway men adamant on retaining the Connacht Championships.

I think the GAA's reasons for remaining amateur are spurious and disingenuous. Let the clubs stay amateur and inter-county go semi-pro. Similar to rugby and aussie rules the amateur clubs feed their local semi-pro clubs (or in this case counties.

The GAA should not be run by elected committees, but by experienced business people with set out guidelines from the provincial councils.

You contradict yourself so much from post to post, it's so unbelievable. You say that club competition is better than the league, yet in the next post, you say that intercounty players should go semi-pro, and basically, fúck the clubs. The reasons why the GAA wont go professional are:

It's not financially sustainable. In a country the size of Ireland and with the popularity of GAA, it'd completely destroy the organisation if they ever went for this idea. Maybe that's your point though. Or maybe just the few elite players should be able to go pro (which isn't that far from the current situation tbh), thus perpetuating the gap between the stronger and weaker counties.

[LIST=2]It's against the whole ethos of the organisation and the members of the organisation itself are against it. That should be enough of a reason in a democratic organisation.[/LIST]

There are plenty more reasons but these are the main 2 imo. If you want a more detailed debate on the matter, look at the thread on the grants scheme.

You tried the comparison with the EL earlier in this thread and failed miserably. Now you're trying to compare it with rugby in Ireland. Have you actually seen the state of club rugby? Sure, the provinces are prosperring in European competition (which the GAA could hardly take advantage of) but the club game has gone to shít. The only reason it's worked in the AFL is because of the size and population of Australia. Oh, and if you can't respect the work Sean Kelly has done, you're most definitely delusional.

You're also talking about the lack of fans/interest etc etc and have decided that the best way to turn this around would be by merging counties. Franchise teams don't work! All it does is alienate the fans of both sides. You just don't seem to get the way the GAA works. It's all about local pride, pride in your club and in your county.

As for the GAA's reasons for staying amateur, see above. The whole point of the organisation is that the needs of the many outweigh the wants of the few. The only people making money from the GAA are the GAA themselves. When you break that down, you'll see that the money is being pumped back into grassroots and into the organisation's own infrastructure. See the thread on the grants scheme for much more on this. I'm not going to post on this matter anymore because a)I've already discussed it in the aforementioned thread and b)I think you're a troll, and not even a good one at that. Have a look at any OhNoYouDidn't post in here for an example of how to troll well.

smashey

The Chessplayer wrote: »

What are you mouthing about? Nothing to add as usual

Chessplayer,

Chill.

The Chessplayer

An Citeog wrote: »

You contradict yourself so much from post to post, it's so unbelievable. You say that club competition is better than the league, yet in the next post, you say that intercounty players should go semi-pro, and basically, fúck the clubs. The reasons why the GAA wont go professional are:

It's not financially sustainable. In a country the size of Ireland and with the popularity of GAA, it'd completely destroy the organisation if they ever went for this idea. Maybe that's your point though. Or maybe just the few elite players should be able to go pro (which isn't that far from the current situation tbh), thus perpetuating the gap between the stronger and weaker counties.

[LIST=2]It's against the whole ethos of the organisation and the members of the organisation itself are against it. That should be enough of a reason in a democratic organisation.[/LIST]

There are plenty more reasons but these are the main 2 imo. If you want a more detailed debate on the matter, look at the thread on the grants scheme.

You tried the comparison with the EL earlier in this thread and failed miserably. Now you're trying to compare it with rugby in Ireland. Have you actually seen the state of club rugby? Sure, the provinces are prosperring in European competition (which the GAA could hardly take advantage of) but the club game has gone to shít. The only reason it's worked in the AFL is because of the size and population of Australia. Oh, and if you can't respect the work Sean Kelly has done, you're most definitely delusional.

You're also talking about the lack of fans/interest etc etc and have decided that the best way to turn this around would be by merging counties. Franchise teams don't work! All it does is alienate the fans of both sides. You just don't seem to get the way the GAA works. It's all about local pride, pride in your club and in your county.

As for the GAA's reasons for staying amateur, see above. The whole point of the organisation is that the needs of the many outweigh the wants of the few. The only people making money from the GAA are the GAA themselves. When you break that down, you'll see that the money is being pumped back into grassroots and into the organisation's own infrastructure. See the thread on the grants scheme for much more on this. I'm not going to post on this matter anymore because a)I've already discussed it in the aforementioned thread and b)I think you're a troll, and not even a good one at that. Have a look at any OhNoYouDidn't post in here for an example of how to troll well.

This is exactly the sort of blathering that give us a bad name in the GAA.

Club soccer teams in ireland don't get paid - they are amateur players just as much as a gaelic player...the same goes for basketballers, rugby players etc. Amateur set up will always remain in clubs. Your arguments about pride etc are the unreasoned blatherings of an imbecile with your "amateurism is engrained in the GAA ethos". Get off the stage!

Clubs stay amateur. Inter-county go semi-pro and if that means creating some new teams out of existing ones, then so be it. Clubs feed inter-county. As far as discussing the grants system - any plonker who is opposed to grants should not be given a forum to air their opinions. Simple as that!

What is your point about "the few elite players"??? Obviously only the best players would go pro/semi-pro!!! By your bizarre logic, Kieran Donaghy would have no more of a claim to semi-pro status than some journeyman hatcher like yourself who might only get the odd game at cornerback for an intermediate side in Longford.

The problem here is that somewhere at the bottom of the landfill that is your mentality exists the notion that everyone in the GAA is and should be equal.

I think you've been watching too many ads for the AIB club championships! :rolleyes:

blackbelt

Sorry Chessplayer but as far as Citeogs post is concerned its game,set and match.You can't take away the elements of what the GAA is about and the elements that are its success.I am sick of the league though....Eircom League that is.:D

As for the O Byrne/McKenna Cup,in some cases the attendence is better than the league matches.The O Byrne Cup Final was very well attended and it had a championship feel to it being played on a mild Friday night in February.A lot of the league matches can be poorly attended due to supporter laziness but more often than not its because there is no incentive created to go or no consequence but this is a terrible attitude that some supporters have.

The only reason Dublin-Tyrone was near capacity was because a lot of fans come for the spectacle that is Croke Park itself.This is another terrible attitude to odd league match thats put there.Come for the team,not for the stadium.

MrJoeSoap

blackbelt wrote: »

The only reason Dublin-Tyrone was near capacity was because a lot of fans come for the spectacle that is Croke Park itself.

That doesn't fly when you consider the Interprovincials though. Could be (and has been) such a great little tournament in the past, I really hope it picks up again.

Scootay

The Chessplayer wrote: »

These "national titles" in hurling are meaningless. How can Monaghan ever compete in Hurling!!?!

How about this year's division 4 final. If you do away with the league you are doing away with one opportunity to compete. They'll also compete for the Nicky Rackard cup. Silverware, far from being meaningless (ask Brian Cody how meaningless winning the league was last year), builds interest and attracts players. Next year they'll compete in a higher division and by competing with better opposition they will improve their own game. The league gives them the opportunity to build hurling and just because they won't be giving Kilkenny or even Antrim a run for their money soon is no reason to scrap it.

An Citeog

The Chessplayer wrote: »

This is exactly the sort of blathering that give us a bad name in the GAA.

Club soccer teams in ireland don't get paid - they are amateur players just as much as a gaelic player...the same goes for basketballers, rugby players etc. Amateur set up will always remain in clubs. Your arguments about pride etc are the unreasoned blatherings of an imbecile with your "amateurism is engrained in the GAA ethos". Get off the stage!

Clubs stay amateur. Inter-county go semi-pro and if that means creating some new teams out of existing ones, then so be it. Clubs feed inter-county. As far as discussing the grants system - any plonker who is opposed to grants should not be given a forum to air their opinions. Simple as that!

What is your point about "the few elite players"??? Obviously only the best players would go pro/semi-pro!!! By your bizarre logic, Kieran Donaghy would have no more of a claim to semi-pro status than some journeyman hatcher like yourself who might only get the odd game at cornerback for an intermediate side in Longford.

The problem here is that somewhere at the bottom of the landfill that is your mentality exists the notion that everyone in the GAA is and should be equal.

I think you've been watching too many ads for the AIB club championships! :rolleyes:

Who exactly is this us you speak of? Your opinion is clearly that of a very small minority, yet you wish to force your views upon others, merge counties, professionalise the sport and completely overhaul the organisation. If clubs stay amateur and intercounty teams go pro, apart from being financially unsustainable and something which would set the GAA back years, club competition would be destroyed. Do you play for a club or have you ever represented your county or are you just the kind of bandwagon supporter that goes along in the summer and expects to be entertained?:rolleyes:

3 pages in and not a single person has shown any support for your ideas. If it looks like shít and smells like shí, then it most likely is shít.

Oh, and "semi-pro journeyman hatcher". I'm neither semi-pro nor a journeyman!;) I could only ever play for one club and have done since I was 6 years old. As for watching too many ads for the AI club championships, I really didn't need to. I've experienced first hand what it's like for my club to win the AI and anything else this year is just a bonus.

The real problem here is that somebody who has no clue about the GAA and is a fairweather supporter who only goes to intercounty matches once his county get to the AI quarter finals and beyond (see, I can make sweeping statements too!:rolleyes:) should have a forum to air his idiotic ideas and to try and force his view on others. If this really is your opinion, I'd question your intellect.

smashey

Chessplayer, I'm on the verge of locking this thread as it's getting near trolling territory.

kevmy

Reasons for not going semi-pro:
Take the EL for example. Galway United are the only team in the top division from the West the next nearest are Sligo Rovers. They are a struggling semi-pro side and would cry out for the attendances of the NFL but they don't get them. Same with many other teams around the country. It seems 2 or 3 teams go to the wall or close to it every year - even Shelbourne the most successful club at the time nearly went under.

Once you go semi-pro you open up a whole set of problems. You have to pay players, maybe 20-25 in soccer, in the GAA your looking at 30+. And instead of 20 soccer clubs your looking at at least 50+ inter-county GAA teams (even if you merge them). You also have less games in a GAA season so you have less chance to generate gate receipts. So your going to end up with the GAA giving money to counties to pay for players - this in turn will rob clubs of desperately needed funds.

Then we have the problem of club players v county players. Do they play alongside them in club games or do they just play intercounty? How many club players are going to feel like sh1t cos they are being treated like sh1t? They put in a similar amount of effort at the moment yet they could end up poorer overall while the guy from down the road they are supposed to be playing alongside drives up in a new car.

Semi-pro is not financially viable. It is unwanted due to the depth of feeling out there against it. If club players don't play then the GAA will die.

The Chessplayer

kevmy wrote: »

Reasons for not going semi-pro:
Take the EL for example. Galway United are the only team in the top division from the West the next nearest are Sligo Rovers. They are a struggling semi-pro side and would cry out for the attendances of the NFL but they don't get them. Same with many other teams around the country. It seems 2 or 3 teams go to the wall or close to it every year - even Shelbourne the most successful club at the time nearly went under.

Once you go semi-pro you open up a whole set of problems. You have to pay players, maybe 20-25 in soccer, in the GAA your looking at 30+. And instead of 20 soccer clubs your looking at at least 50+ inter-county GAA teams (even if you merge them). You also have less games in a GAA season so you have less chance to generate gate receipts. So your going to end up with the GAA giving money to counties to pay for players - this in turn will rob clubs of desperately needed funds.

Then we have the problem of club players v county players. Do they play alongside them in club games or do they just play intercounty? How many club players are going to feel like sh1t cos they are being treated like sh1t? They put in a similar amount of effort at the moment yet they could end up poorer overall while the guy from down the road they are supposed to be playing alongside drives up in a new car.

Semi-pro is not financially viable. It is unwanted due to the depth of feeling out there against it. If club players don't play then the GAA will die.

Some good points made here in terms of the Galway Utd example and Sligo Rovers. I don't buy the "how would the club players feel" - how do amateurs feel in any sport? It's not as if Bray Emmets would throw in the towel because Wicklow players bagged a couple of hundred a week. The central point here seems to be that the mediocre player in a club would be envious of the club-mate who gets appearance fees for inter-county selection. I don't buy that. Each to their own - if he's good enough for inter-county then fair dues to him.

The Chessplayer

An Citeog wrote: »

Who exactly is this us you speak of? Your opinion is clearly that of a very small minority, yet you wish to force your views upon others, merge counties, professionalise the sport and completely overhaul the organisation. If clubs stay amateur and intercounty teams go pro, apart from being financially unsustainable and something which would set the GAA back years, club competition would be destroyed. Do you play for a club or have you ever represented your county or are you just the kind of bandwagon supporter that goes along in the summer and expects to be entertained?:rolleyes:

3 pages in and not a single person has shown any support for your ideas. If it looks like shít and smells like shí, then it most likely is shít.

Oh, and "semi-pro journeyman hatcher". I'm neither semi-pro nor a journeyman!;) I could only ever play for one club and have done since I was 6 years old. As for watching too many ads for the AI club championships, I really didn't need to. I've experienced first hand what it's like for my club to win the AI and anything else this year is just a bonus.

The real problem here is that somebody who has no clue about the GAA and is a fairweather supporter who only goes to intercounty matches once his county get to the AI quarter finals and beyond (see, I can make sweeping statements too!:rolleyes:) should have a forum to air his idiotic ideas and to try and force his view on others. If this really is your opinion, I'd question your intellect.

You'd swear I was the only advocate for change in the gaa. It's amazing the direction a post like this can go when a plonker takes the reins...completely off topic! I don't know where you're going with your assumptions about fair-weather fans etc and I have absolutely no interest in blathering anecdotes about playing football as a six year old!?!

My post was not intended as a blueprint for how the organisation should go forward, but merely a suggestion that it is time to move forward. It's about generating debate on the subject, not trading insults peppered with inane smiley faces.

An Citeog

The Chessplayer wrote: »

You'd swear I was the only advocate for change in the gaa. It's amazing the direction a post like this can go when a plonker takes the reins...completely off topic! I don't know where you're going with your assumptions about fair-weather fans etc and I have absolutely no interest in blathering anecdotes about playing football as a six year old!?!

My post was not intended as a blueprint for how the organisation should go forward, but merely a suggestion that it is time to move forward. It's about generating debate on the subject, not trading insults peppered with inane smiley faces.

There's a hell of a difference between change and ripping the GAA apart and trying to force all the pieces together again. The reason the GAA can't/shouldn't go semi-pro/pro isn't because of how the club players would feel, it's because it's simply not financially viable. As kevmy already pointed out aswell, it'd divert money from the clubs. The elite players already get heavily rewarded with jobs, scholarships, endorsements etc. Why should some of the mediocre intercounty players or those from weaker counties get paid. Should a hurler from Wicklow get paid, while someone from a club team like Portumna gets nothing. Should club players from strong counties be able to transfer to the weaker counties or should the services of the very best go to the highest bidder?

Stirring up debate would actually imply that any of your suggestions have any merit. Truth is, what you're suggesting is ludicrous. Merging counties in an attempt to make them more competitive and draw bigger crowds will only have the opposite effect and will alienate a hell of a lot of people. Franchise football doesn't work, period. The reason I suggested that you were a fairweather fan is because you don't really seem to grasp what the GAA is all about. It's not some money-making machine that somebody is getting rich off and it's about far more than just the 60+ intercounty teams involved. If you don't understand that, then you don't really bring much to this "debate".

Might want to cool off with the personal insults and debate your points rationally aswell.

Pride Fighter

An Citeog wrote: »

There's a hell of a difference between change and ripping the GAA apart and trying to force all the pieces together again. The reason the GAA can't/shouldn't go semi-pro/pro isn't because of how the club players would feel, it's because it's simply not financially viable. As kevmy already pointed out aswell, it'd divert money from the clubs. The elite players already get heavily rewarded with jobs, scholarships, endorsements etc. Why should some of the mediocre intercounty players or those from weaker counties get paid. Should a hurler from Wicklow get paid, while someone from a club team like Portumna gets nothing. Should club players from strong counties be able to transfer to the weaker counties or should the services of the very best go to the highest bidder?

Stirring up debate would actually imply that any of your suggestions have any merit. Truth is, what you're suggesting is ludicrous. Merging counties in an attempt to make them more competitive and draw bigger crowds will only have the opposite effect and will alienate a hell of a lot of people. Franchise football doesn't work, period. The reason I suggested that you were a fairweather fan is because you don't really seem to grasp what the GAA is all about. It's not some money-making machine that somebody is getting rich off and it's about far more than just the 60+ intercounty teams involved. If you don't understand that, then you don't really bring much to this "debate".

Might want to cool off with the personal insults and debate your points rationally aswell.

I'd agree with 99% of what you said, the 1% is that you should have put some smilies in:):):):):):):):)

kevmy

The Chessplayer wrote: »

Some good points made here in terms of the Galway Utd example and Sligo Rovers. I don't buy the "how would the club players feel" - how do amateurs feel in any sport? It's not as if Bray Emmets would throw in the towel because Wicklow players bagged a couple of hundred a week. The central point here seems to be that the mediocre player in a club would be envious of the club-mate who gets appearance fees for inter-county selection. I don't buy that. Each to their own - if he's good enough for inter-county then fair dues to him.

The point your making is that amateurs play in every sport and keep the grassroots alive which is absolutely true. However the GAA is in a totally different situation to most sports. For example in the EL all the players in the top 2 divisions are semi-pros and all those below that are amateurs but the semi-pros don't play on the same teams as the amateurs. In your new model of the GAA this would happen. IMO thats a bad thing.
Also the elite players would slowly be taken away from there clubs as more money is involved and intercounty managers are told to keep their player free of injury. This would again punish clubs. And it's not just club players who suffer, 99.9% of intercounty players love playing for their clubs. Stopping them from doing this is only going to punish them for being talented. The players love their club, for the most part, it's where they learned the game and they get to play alongside lifelong friends and neighbours. A large proportion of players say they would prefer to win AI titles with their clubs than their counties.

Nalced_irl

Weve gone from talk of splitting Dublin into 2 teams to merging counties in the space of a year! I think it would be an awful idea tbh. Its up to the weaker counties to look at their youth development and training techniques, not up to the GAA to merge unsuccessful teams so they have a shot.

For paying players, one big point... As we all know, Dublin play in Croker for matches in the championship that most other counties would play in a far smaller stadium due to demand. Would it be fair if Dublin and their opponent could generate the same money in one game that other counties would take about 10 games at least to make the same? Or if the money was split evenly would it be fair that the teams from more populated areas and thus more gate reciepts are paying for other counties players? I could never see it working tbh.

blackbelt

There is only one way the GAA can go forward....by marketing the games.This includes O Byrne,McKenna,League,Championship and Club Championships.Chessplayer,If your point of scrapping the league was down to this then it still wouldn't be viable.

Merging two weak counties would pose further problems such as management,mix of players etc.Neither county would appreciate it and any success that may arise would be diluted.

As pointed out,turning the game semi-pro is not an option.Money on this scale would upset the whole foundation and the GAA would go bankrupt in the long term through having to incur extra expenses by investing in club developments,paying inter-county players as well as further admin expenses and overheads.Paying for marketing and advertising is a better investment which will yield more return.

The Chessplayer

An Citeog wrote: »

There's a hell of a difference between change and ripping the GAA apart and trying to force all the pieces together again. The reason the GAA can't/shouldn't go semi-pro/pro isn't because of how the club players would feel, it's because it's simply not financially viable. As kevmy already pointed out aswell, it'd divert money from the clubs. The elite players already get heavily rewarded with jobs, scholarships, endorsements etc. Why should some of the mediocre intercounty players or those from weaker counties get paid. Should a hurler from Wicklow get paid, while someone from a club team like Portumna gets nothing. Should club players from strong counties be able to transfer to the weaker counties or should the services of the very best go to the highest bidder?

Stirring up debate would actually imply that any of your suggestions have any merit. Truth is, what you're suggesting is ludicrous. Merging counties in an attempt to make them more competitive and draw bigger crowds will only have the opposite effect and will alienate a hell of a lot of people. Franchise football doesn't work, period. The reason I suggested that you were a fairweather fan is because you don't really seem to grasp what the GAA is all about. It's not some money-making machine that somebody is getting rich off and it's about far more than just the 60+ intercounty teams involved. If you don't understand that, then you don't really bring much to this "debate".

Might want to cool off with the personal insults and debate your points rationally aswell.

One thing I would say is that I have absolutely no time for plonkers who rabbit on about "what the GAA is all about". You're going back down the route of "when I was six years old" with moronic statements like that.

When you look at a county like Leitrim with a total population of less than 30,000 I seriously doubt you'd be alienating too many people if a wider catchment area was opened for a new team. I don't know why people are so protective over the 32 separate counties notion.

All these excuses about players getting rewarded by jobs etc are all very well but the problem here is that these rewards are not set in stone. A few years ago Tommy Lyons was banging on about how John McNally was on the dole but here he was playing in Croke Park in front of 80,000 and even the stewards were getting paid. All of the questions you ask could be tackled with strict guidelines...for example, a rich county couldn't just buy up all the best players, and a tight transfer system.

The grants system that the GPA are working on isn't enough. There should be a solid distribution of wealth from the GAA itself.

Back to the topic though, the league - whether or not enough money is pumped into marketing it - is still a second rate competition... how else can you explain Donegal winning it, or Dublin getting relegated?

The Chessplayer

One thing I'd like to make clear, I'm not advocating the end of club competitions. I acknowledge that there is a large proportion of people who see the gaa as the very cornerstone of not only their social interaction but their whole lives. But I can't see why dramatic changes to the inter-county league couldn't be in harmony with existing club competition.

Dapos

The Chessplayer wrote: »

One thing I would say is that I have absolutely no time for plonkers who rabbit on about "what the GAA is all about". You're going back down the route of "when I was six years old" with moronic statements like that.

When you look at a county like Leitrim with a total population of less than 30,000 I seriously doubt you'd be alienating too many people if a wider catchment area was opened for a new team. I don't know why people are so protective over the 32 separate counties notion.

All these excuses about players getting rewarded by jobs etc are all very well but the problem here is that these rewards are not set in stone. A few years ago Tommy Lyons was banging on about how John McNally was on the dole but here he was playing in Croke Park in front of 80,000 and even the stewards were getting paid. All of the questions you ask could be tackled with strict guidelines...for example, a rich county couldn't just buy up all the best players, and a tight transfer system.

The grants system that the GPA are working on isn't enough. There should be a solid distribution of wealth from the GAA itself.

Back to the topic though, the league - whether or not enough money is pumped into marketing it - is still a second rate competition... how else can you explain Donegal winning it, or Dublin getting relegated?

Whats wrong with having a "second rate competition". Or even a third rate competition (say o'byrne cup). Rugby has heiniken cup and magners league, english soccor has Premier league and FA cup etc. It's good to have more than one competition, it means there can be a national league winner and championship winner. You mentioned before whats the point of the div 2, 3 , 4 finals etc. It matters to the countys to win a competition. Wicklow go from never winning a game in croke park to winning th etommy murphy cup. in your eyes it means feck all but i'm sure there are a lot in wicklow who would disagree.

Also, put donegal against dublin in the championship and i wouldn't there would eb an obvious winner. Donegal played well to win the league. Also the are more than 8 teams who i would class Div 1 teams hence why dublin got relegated. Div 2 has been very competitive this year. Monaghan, who came closest to beating kerry in championship last year, falled to get out of div 2. Not from a lack of trying!

Nalced_irl

The Chessplayer wrote: »

One thing I'd like to make clear, I'm not advocating the end of club competitions. I acknowledge that there is a large proportion of people who see the gaa as the very cornerstone of not only their social interaction but their whole lives. But I can't see why dramatic changes to the inter-county league couldn't be in harmony with existing club competition.

Out of interest Chessplayer, are you from one of the weaker counties? Personally if i was from a county that there was talk of merging into another i would be fuming. Id prefer to support my county through rough times rather than support my county and another through slightly better times. Also, anyone else from what they would see as a weaker county, how would you feel about being merged to make the 2 counties stronger?

wow sierra

on the specific thread title:

I watched the Division 3 final and the Division 1 final and they were both excellent games. Didn't have the pleasure of seeing the Dubs being beaten by Westmeath but the result gave me great pleasure. I come from Roscommon and we suffered some of our worst defeats in history in this league - but I will remember our performances against Meath Cork and Cavan and individual good performaces by players even in the awful defeats. By going to league games you getter a fuller view of a player or a teams abilily which might now be obvious from ten minutes championship highlights on the Sunday game. When uninformed people start the usual rediculous adoration of Ciaran Donaghy come the summer - it will be nice to be able to refer them to this league final and the great Derry performance.

There is room for many competitions and many individual local derbys within each competition. Would you play the English premiership with only about 6 teams seeing as the others have no chance of winning it ( ok more like only 4 teams!!). At least in GAA we have a few more teams in with a chance and everyone is in with a chance of pulling off a shock against their neighbours which is as good as an All Ireland to them.

The idea of merging counties is like suggesting we merge our Soccer team with England so that we would qualify for the World Cup.

The essence of the GAA is sense of belonging, to your club and your county. As a recent GAA ad said "You don't chose your club/county - you inherit it."

kevmy

The Chessplayer wrote: »

When you look at a county like Leitrim with a total population of less than 30,000 I seriously doubt you'd be alienating too many people if a wider catchment area was opened for a new team. I don't know why people are so protective over the 32 separate counties notion.

Live in a border area between counties and you'll understand there is a great rivalry between Leitrim and Roscommon and it lifts what would usually be a middling game above that into one filled with pride and passion. Some of the games between lesser counties provide some of the best entertainment of the year due to rivalries. All this would be gone if counties were merged. Also seeing how Leitrim and Sligo reacted to winning Connacht in 94 and 07 show how much it means to players and fans. By merging counties, getting rid of league and provincial championships mean players will get the chance to win less silverware not more.

The Chessplayer wrote: »

Back to the topic though, the league - whether or not enough money is pumped into marketing it - is still a second rate competition... how else can you explain Donegal winning it, or Dublin getting relegated?

Because Donegal played well and Dublin bottled it in a number of games. If the Dubs had addressed the issue of the last 10 mins of a game by taking the evidence of that years league and the 06 semi then they might have won Sam last year. Instead the brushed it off as only the league and got caught out.

The Chessplayer wrote: »

One thing I'd like to make clear, I'm not advocating the end of club competitions. I acknowledge that there is a large proportion of people who see the gaa as the very cornerstone of not only their social interaction but their whole lives. But I can't see why dramatic changes to the inter-county league couldn't be in harmony with existing club competition.

Then my son your are blind. You obviously do not follow your club closely. Everything that happens on the intercounty scene has a drastic effect on club competitions. Some are postponed, some are put back, some are played without intercounty players, some clubs are without players who get injured on county duty. All of these things affect it now and will affect it in the future. More games for counties mean more disruption for clubs. With what your proposing I would feel a large disruption would come between club and county players which is exactly the opposite of what is required.




No one has supported you give it up.