IÉ Mark 3 Coaches up for grabs.

Run_to_da_hills

Reading in the this evenings Herald that CIE (Iarnrod Eireann) is flogging off most of its remaining Mark3 Coaches. (between 70 and 130) I think that this is a foolish decision on behalf of Iarnrod Eireann. These coaches are in perfectly good working order and could easily be deployed on existing and future expansion of commuter rail networks around Cork and Limerick. THey are only interested in selling them off as a job lot.

paulm17781

I'd like to think the money will be reinvested in rolling stock / infrastructure. If not then they should redeploy them.

Run_to_da_hills

paulm17781 wrote: »

I'd like to think the money will be reinvested in rolling stock / infrastructure. If not then they should redeploy them.

They will probably end up giving them away to NIR as they did with some of their former locos, They should preserve a full set of these carriages for nostalgic "super train" excursions with some of the locamotives from the ITG.

robd

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

They will probably end up giving them away to NIR as they did with some of their former locos, They should preserve a full set of these carriages for nostalgic "super train" excursions with some of the locamotives from the ITG.

No they shouldn't. Irish rail's job is to run intercity, commuter trains, and darts in as efficient manner as possible. Yes they fall down somewhat at the efficient part but their job is defiantly not to maintain trains for nostalgic reasons or to keep trainspotters happy.

The new fleet of DMUs, the 22000 class, will replace all the MK3's. DMU's is the future of intercity transport in Ireland. Good riddance to old loco pushed/pulled stock with beast 201 locos that tare up the track.

70 of those MK3 carrigages might just about cover the cost of 1 x 6 carriage set of the new DMU's. Given that any network in Europe would have to regauge them, selling as 1 job lot is the best way to go.

Now that they don't need to do much freight anymore they can scrap a huge amount of the loco's also. Good riddance to them too.

L1011

Anyone got any 1600mm locos going spare? Here Stagecoach/Arriva, please for the love of god operate a competitive service (IE have to give access to the track).

Run_to_da_hills

robd wrote: »

No they shouldn't. Irish rail's job is to run intercity, commuter trains, and darts in as efficient manner as possible. Yes they fall down somewhat at the efficient part but their job is defiantly not to maintain trains for nostalgic reasons or to keep trainspotters happy.

The new fleet of DMUs, the 22000 class, will replace all the MK3's. DMU's is the future of intercity transport in Ireland. Good riddance to old loco pushed/pulled stock with beast 201 locos that tare up the track.

70 of those MK3 carrigages might just about cover the cost of 1 x 6 carriage set of the new DMU's. Given that any network in Europe would have to regauge them, selling as 1 job lot is the best way to go.

Now that they don't need to do much freight anymore they can scrap a huge amount of the loco's also. Good riddance to them too.

Exactly, we are the only country in Europe that has little or nothing to show our kids of its former rail or Bus heritage. It is only for groups like the ITG and the Railway preservation society of Ireland there would not be one pre 1990’s locomotive or rolling stock left in the country.

Whose to say all these 22000 DMU sets are as good as they are made out to be? I think they are too quick to part with the mark 3’s and their corresponding 181 & 201 locomotives, (They may also require these locomotives in the future for push / pull duties ).

Imagine how embarrassing it would be for CIE if in two years time if these train sets spent most of their time on service ramps in Roscrea just as the 10 GEC Alsthom 8200 Dart units ended up in Fairview for most of their service life since they were bought new in 2000.

This was not the first time CIE was badly stung on a large batch rail deal. Back in the 1950ies & 60ies they had to re engine their entire fleet of Metropolitan Vickers locomotives with GM power units because the Crossley proved so unreliable.

corktina

they are long in the tooth and should go in favour of new purpose built units....they arent any use for short distance work as suggested as they dont have enough doors and are too low density , I agree that regretably the era of loco-hauled trians is over.

crosstownk

Maybe not exactly on topic, but, while I'm more an 00 scale fan, I'd love one of these coaches in my back garden to double as a shed/dining area/white elephant. The 00 can stay in the attic but the 1:1 would look good in the garden!!

Zoney

I can't complain about the replacement 22000 class, the power sockets at the tables allowed me to use my laptop for computer gaming! The old-school 2+2 seating with tables at windows is also great! So I'm not too upset about the Mk3s disappearing. They were overheated often too.

And although the ride quality was rough enough, I didn't feel ill using the computer screen so it couldn't have been too bad. It's probably more down to the track than the train anyways.

The catering is absolutely pathetic though. It's ridiculous that you can have a better and even for some things cheaper service thousands of feet up in the air on airline tickets that aren't that much higher priced! It's absolutely depressing the makeshift arrangement just a trolley - barely even room for it to be stashed.

DWCommuter

Right lads, a bit of reality.

Feck the trainspotters! Only joking.

The MK3s are useless for storing because of their air conditioning units. They would have to be under cover, otherwise the vents corrode over a period of time out of use. They are useless to any preservation group in Ireland because none of them have the ability to store them. Off course one coach should be preserved, along with a MK2 and a Craven. But thats a different argument relating to a transport museum and irrelevent to this forum.

The IE drive towards railcars is sensible, but I have little faith in it, because I think the investment has been minimal and designed to fit a timetable created by IE on the basis of it being enough into the future.

Personally, I think some of the MK3 fleet should've been retained and refurbished and allowed provide an option of even more services than that offered by the new fleet. They aren't suitable for commuter work, but there is enough excess demand on inter city routes (on a weekly basis) to justify their retainment. Refurb them and brand them in current inter city colours. Air con could be removed from some sets and have them available for specials. But the gods in IE will spin their spin and trim their trim until the rail network is the way they want it and not the way customers need it. These coaches are good for another 20 years with the right maintenence. They would never be the experience that Cravens coaches were, ever!

I'll wager that this will come back to bite IE on the ass. Just wait and see.

kmart6

Wasn't the idea of getting rid of these because the new one's are the greenest around or something?!

Not much point in keeping them,and saying put them back in service on inter city lines,as it is the lines are very busy,be hard to see where they'd fit them in,especially until they get this third line down to Kildare finished!

Run_to_da_hills

DWCommuter wrote: »

. Off course one coach should be preserved, along with a MK2 and a Craven. But thats a different argument relating to a transport museum and irrelevent to this forum.

Yuck, its bad enough having the Dart mixing up their carriages without the preservation society doing the same. I say keep six or none at all.

Another option would be to hang on to them and electrify one or more of the main lines in the future, ie Dublin-Cork or Dublin-Belfast powered by electric locos. (This will keep the greenys happy ) I don't know why they opted for DMUs in the first place, these are dirty, smelly and noisy and also virtually impossible to keep clean, they are also useless for upgrading to electric. They should have learned from the past with the AEC Park Royals.

Boardsbud

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

They will probably end up giving them away to NIR as they did with some of their former locos

Which former locos were these ? and when ?

SeanW

DWCommuter wrote: »

The IE drive towards railcars is sensible, but I have little faith in it, because I think the investment has been minimal and designed to fit a timetable created by IE on the basis of it being enough into the future.

Personally, I think some of the MK3 fleet should've been retained and refurbished and allowed provide an option of even more services than that offered by the new fleet. They aren't suitable for commuter work, but there is enough excess demand on inter city routes (on a weekly basis) to justify their retainment. Refurb them and brand them in current inter city colours. Air con could be removed from some sets and have them available for specials. But the gods in IE will spin their spin and trim their trim until the rail network is the way they want it and not the way customers need it. These coaches are good for another 20 years with the right maintenence. They would never be the experience that Cravens coaches were, ever!

I'll wager that this will come back to bite IE on the ass. Just wait and see.

Not often I agree with you these days, but it looks like you've hit the nail on the head there.

Ham'nd'egger

Boardsbud wrote: »

Which former locos were these ? and when ?

Around 1985, six old 201 Class locos (the C Class) were sold to NIR and renumbered 104-109 after they were withdrawn after being superseded by the DART. Intended to be used for freight traffic, they were instead employed for service trains and pilots by NIR until they were all retired and withdrawn by 1995, 106 being the last to be stopped that March.

There is a few A and C's in preservation today. 003 and 039 and 226 and 231 are kept by the Irish Transit Group. 015 is kept by Irish Rail and 055 is preserved in Séan Browne's Hell's Kitchen Pub in Castlerea. 221 and 231 are also in the hands of the ITG; Irish Rail currently mind 227.

KC61

The current thinking appears to be that 6 sets will be retained and refurbished:

2 as standby for the Dublin/Cork service
4 to enable an hourly Dublin/Belfast service (3 in service and one on standby)

Personally, I think that may be rather shortsighted. I would have thought at least 2 more sets could and should be retained in the medium term in order to cope with demand increases.

fitzyshea

Zoney wrote: »

I can't complain about the replacement 22000 class, the power sockets at the tables allowed me to use my laptop for computer gaming! The old-school 2+2 seating with tables at windows is also great! So I'm not too upset about the Mk3s disappearing. They were overheated often too.

And although the ride quality was rough enough, I didn't feel ill using the computer screen so it couldn't have been too bad. It's probably more down to the track than the train anyways.

The catering is absolutely pathetic though. It's ridiculous that you can have a better and even for some things cheaper service thousands of feet up in the air on airline tickets that aren't that much higher priced! It's absolutely depressing the makeshift arrangement just a trolley - barely even room for it to be stashed.

IE dont do catering anymore its outsourced so the new company can basically charge what they like.

Ham'nd'egger

Zoney wrote: »

The catering is absolutely pathetic though. It's ridiculous that you can have a better and even for some things cheaper service thousands of feet up in the air on airline tickets that aren't that much higher priced! It's absolutely depressing the makeshift arrangement just a trolley - barely even room for it to be stashed.

The current 22000's are 3 car sets and have no catering save for the trolly. The 6 car sets have a catering/dining area though nobody will vouch for the food on them:D

Captain Chaos

The end has already started for the Mk3s. Last Sunday a rake of 8 Mk3As were brought to the North Wall freight yard for storage and I suppose easy access if a UK charter company wants to buy them. Better be quick though, if they are left out in the open with no air-con for even a few weeks they will be ruined on the inside.

Run_to_da_hills

Captain Chaos wrote: »

The end has already started for the Mk3s. Last Sunday a rake of 8 Mk3As were brought to the North Wall freight yard for storage and I suppose easy access if a UK charter company wants to buy them. Better be quick though, if they are left out in the open with no air-con for even a few weeks they will be ruined on the inside.

They will also be ruined on the outside if left in the North Wall Freight yard.

Poxyshamrock

The weird thing is...there's still Mk II's floating around the place.

KC61

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

The weird thing is...there's still Mk II's floating around the place.

Eh, no there aren't!

2 have gone to the RPSI for preservation, with the rest being scrapped in Inchicore.

All have been withdrawn from service.

The Mk 3A set was a unique set, which led to higher maintenance costs.

The remaining Mk 3 sets should remain serviceable for the rest of the year at the very least. I would not expect there to be disposals of same until 2009.

corktina

by coincidence saw a push pull rake heading non stop south through Mallow yesterday with the loco at the north end....made a change to see that...

Poxyshamrock

KC61 wrote: »

Eh, no there aren't!

2 have gone to the RPSI for preservation, with the rest being scrapped in Inchicore.

All have been withdrawn from service.

I got a train to Dublin from Limerick twice.
Once in January and once in February and I got MK II's.

Captain Chaos

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

I got a train to Dublin from Limerick twice.
Once in January and once in February and I got MK II's.

That was Feburary, since the end of March all MK2s have been scrapped, you will never see one again except on RPSI tour specials.

KC61

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

I got a train to Dublin from Limerick twice.
Once in January and once in February and I got MK II's.

Ìndeed there were Mk 2 sets operating in January and February. However, they have all been withdrawn in the meantime and are now scrapped. This was before the Mk3a set was withdrawn.

Poxyshamrock

Thank god!

(Although I have to admit they were very toasty on a winter's evening. hasn't been heaters like them since)

I think this decision is terrible. I've always liked the Mark 3s even before I began "spotting" (for the want of a better word). Just for the record I hated the Cravens as a passenger so the reason I'm sad to see the Mk3s go is not because they're loco hauled. I personally think they're the best coaches we ever had in this country.

I recently travelled home from Tralee and the Tralee to Mallow leg was 213 with Mk3s for some reason - I loved it. Beats a noisy smelly 2700 any day. I've never been on a 22000 but if its anything like a 27 they can feck off.

SeanW

No, the 22ks are a lot better than any of the DMUs we had before - these are proper InterCity railcars. This is opposed to the 2700/29000 class that are Commuter railcars, (it says so in all documentation and specification, as well as their liveries) which for years have played make-believe on Intercity lines such as Sligo, Rosslare, Tralee and other connecting services.

Try them out - you won't be disappointed.

I don't think you can get much worse than the 29s, I've been on many a trip on them from Drumcondra to Clonsilla and on more than one occasion I've gotten a headache from the throbbing engine underneath.

The Mk3s in theory should be capable of 125mph but they'll never run at that speed on IÉ. I wonder if they have 125mph capable brakes? But the Mk3a Cú Na Maras were only ever rated for 110mph.

Nostradamus

Keep 1 coach for some museum and sell the rest. The days of the locomotive in Ireland is well and truly over.

Run_to_da_hills

Nostradamus wrote: »

The days of the locomotive in Ireland is well and truly over.

:mad:

Nostradamus

Nostradamus wrote: »

The days of the locomotive in Ireland is well and truly over.

Soon enough these are all I'll have...

Run_to_da_hills

Karsini wrote: »

Soon enough these are all I'll have...

Its like everything else in this country, as soon as they become extinct they decide to make a model of them. http://images.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://www.modelfair.com/SF100081.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.modelfair.com/whats_new.htm&h=187&w=280&sz=9&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=vszgZhzp_Oe_pM:&tbnh=76&tbnw=114&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSilver%2BFox%2BModels%2BIrish%2BMet-Vic%2BA%2BClass%2B%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

invincibleirish

This thread reeks of trainspotter nerdiness, they are going and gone ffs, why the nostalgia?

invincibleirish

invincibleirish wrote: »

This thread reeks of trainspotter nerdiness, they are going and gone ffs, why the nostalgia?

The Mark 3s are hardly life expired. They easily have another 10-15 years left in them. I think it's replacement for the sake of it rather than actually having a need to do it. Ireland has more money than sense these days.

invincibleirish

Karsini wrote: »

Ireland has more money than sense these days.

Does it now?


http://www.galwaynews.ie/3535-university-hospital-close-august

both sense & money appear to be in short supply in 21st Century Celtic Tiger Ireland TM.

corktina

what is in service now and coming on stream is way better than the old order, just not as interesting.....the Mk3's are a 1970's design amd must be expensive to maintain now....lets get rid of the 201's too and replace them with modern power cars.....instead of moaning about irelansd Railway we should be praising it...it isnt half bad for a small underpopulated island like us you know....

Run_to_da_hills

invincibleirish wrote: »

This thread reeks of trainspotter nerdiness, they are going and gone ffs, why the nostalgia?

I gather you are one of these boring commuters that take the Dart every morning at 80.00AM with a copy of the Irish times stuck under your arm. :rolleyes:, If this thread bothers you why don't you just request to the Boards to have a separate forum to accommodate those that have an interest in our Irish railway heritage. (Ill mod it and ban the likes of you from it )

deRanged

corktina wrote: »

what is in service now and coming on stream is way better than the old order, just not as interesting

they ran one of the old intercity style trains on the cork cobh line on wednesday. it was sortof a blast from the past for me. It reminded me of the old days - the train was 10 minutes late, 15 by the time we got to cork, no announcements, plenty of seats, way more comfortable than the new railcars, way noisier, doors slower to operate ..... Basically, it had character, felt like a train.

There's no harm in nostalgia, but I'd rather see the new railcars coming around the bend from Fota any morning.

I'll take this opportunity to ask, what's wrong with the 201s? I'm always hearing people bashing them saying things like: the 071s are better, its a freight engine, they're too heavy etc. I've been travelling on intercity services for 12 years now and have never once had a problem on a train which was related to a 201.

With 071s still being overhauled we're going to have a serious locomotive surplus when the Mk3s go. I'd say the smaller ones, the 121s/141s/181s will probably all be gone by the end of the year - but these are pretty much life expired so I can understand why they're going.

Captain Chaos

the problem with the 201 is that they are not suited to Irish rails. Our track is not up to spec overall. The 201s are heavy, 100 tons and they destroy the tracks with their bogies.

Also I can assure you that alot of 201s have been the cause of failures on the intercity routes, notably the push pull capable locos. They have had some very bad stress put on them from Enterprise work, some of the damage cannot be easially repaired. Because of this they have been failing quite a bit on Enterprise and other routes.

The should have been fitted with seperate HEP generators but thats IE for you, cutting corners where they can.

Nostradamus

The 201's will be send to Latin America in time as well. Mark my words.

invincibleirish

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I gather you are one of these boring commuters that take the Dart every morning at 80.00AM with a copy of the Irish times stuck under your arm. :rolleyes:, If this thread bothers you why don't you just request to the Boards to have a separate forum to accommodate those that have an interest in our Irish railway heritage. (Ill mod it and ban the likes of you from it )

No i drive a car, i used to have a Fiesta, it was crappy, smelly, slow and frequently broke down, now i have a new faster more reliable car and whilst i have fond memories of said Fiesta

i'd want to be insane to want to use it again!

Run_to_da_hills

Nostradamus wrote: »

The 201's will be send to Latin America in time as well. Mark my words.

No, I would say somewhere like a disused railway yard up in Belfast :pac: If the Irish rail system cannot handle the 201's not many other banana rail systems will.

Ham'nd'egger

Captain Chaos wrote: »

the problem with the 201 is that they are not suited to Irish rails. Our track is not up to spec overall. The 201s are heavy, 100 tons and they destroy the tracks with their bogies.

Also I can assure you that alot of 201s have been the cause of failures on the intercity routes, notably the push pull capable locos. They have had some very bad stress put on them from Enterprise work, some of the damage cannot be easially repaired. Because of this they have been failing quite a bit on Enterprise and other routes.

The should have been fitted with seperate HEP generators but thats IE for you, cutting corners where they can.

They actually weight 112 tons; 071 come in at 99 tons. The issue of trains cutting up track is something that is misunderstood; it is to do with overall weight and length of a loco and the amount of axles on it. Many steam loco's over the year actually had far heavier axle loads than diesel locos Quality of track is also an factor but since the renewal of track this is a mute issue. The "damage" you refer to is wear and tear and just tends to be on the loco's that work the Enterprise more often given that it works harder on this service.

Head End Power generators are a standard opt on with most locomotive designs nowadays. They are hardly a case of cutting corners; the way to look on it is economics. To add on a generator in lieu of a generator van can save 40 tons to a train's weight, space that has no seats and earning potential. It is a case of weighing up the pro's and con's of having it.

Run_to_da_hills

THey should have taken the cleaner option and put down a third rail and electric locos to pull the mark 3s and not have bothered with the 22000. Give it a few months and all these DMU train sets will be filthy.

Captain Chaos

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Also I can assure you that alot of 201s have been the cause of failures on the intercity routes, notably the push pull capable locos. They have had some very bad stress put on them from Enterprise work, some of the damage cannot be easially repaired. Because of this they have been failing quite a bit on Enterprise and other routes.

The should have been fitted with seperate HEP generators but thats IE for you, cutting corners where they can.

Most overseas locomotives have HEP fitted, though in fairness they don't all use the full 904rpm - seems to be a GM thing. The UK class 67 is the same and some GMs in the US such as the F40PH series have been nicknamed "screamers" due to the noise of their engines when HEP is on. Very environmentally unfriendly if you ask me, I doubt the Mk3 gen vans are anywhere near as bad when it comes to emissions. I've often been in a DART station when an Enterprise passes by and get slapped with a whoosh of burned diesel fumes.

I don't think HEP related failures are as common as they used to be but it was serious for a long time; 206 was severely damaged in a fire up North a few years back. The main issue with the Enterprise now seems to be parking brake sensors on the coaches.

But these problems aren't related to the Mk3s, more to the DeDietrich stock. HEP was tested on Mk3s using 210 but I'd say the reasons mentioned above meant the vans remained.

Victor

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

THey should have taken the cleaner option and put down a third rail and electric locos to pull the mark 3s and not have bothered with the 22000. Give it a few months and all these DMU train sets will be filthy.

The RSC aren't enthusiastic about third rail, so it would have to be OHLE, which is generally preferred for long distance work anyway. Given the number of level crossings on part of the system third rail would have further problems.

Run_to_da_hills

Victor wrote: »

The RSC aren't enthusiastic about third rail, so it would have to be OHLE, which is generally preferred for long distance work anyway. Given the number of level crossings on part of the system third rail would have further problems.

It has worked in the Network SE, and also on London Underground quiet successfully for over a century (Which a large preportion is actually overground).
Lists of other rail systems using third rail. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rail_transport_systems_using_third_rail

If the RSC had its way level crossings would be totally eliminated. They are a hazzard and dangerous alternative to a permanent rail crossing (electrified or not) just as the NRA placing roundabouts are a cheapscate option on our main roads. The third rail is rarely exposed at a level crossing, the live wire can be burried underground well clear of the crossing with continuous electrical contact being made from shoes placed at various parts of the train to overcome this.

Third rail systems are cheaper to install than overhead wire systems, less prone to weather damage, less chance of copper cable being ripped off by certain people as what happend during the setting of the dart line. The only disadvantage would be line flooding which would of course ruil out the western corridor!! :eek:) Overhead pylons are ugly and banned in some countries such as Singapore.

corktina

third rail (in fact all electrification projects) need one important factor...density of traffic...it is totally uneconmoic to electrify almost any of the lines in this island . It may become more economic in the future but I suspct than cleaner and greener ways of haulage will emerge in any case.

You only have to look over the water to see the many hundreds of miles of line diesl operated and still with a higher density than here. There is even talk of de-electrifying the ECML and many trains operating over this electrified line and many others are diesl hauled anyway due to the undesirability of switching motive power en route.

To instal new third rail would be hideously expensive as so much more fixed equipment is need, such as sub-stations much more closely spaced when using DC

Level crossings should in fact not be any unsafer than any other type of intersection on the roads, in fact I would guess that their safety record is better than most road/road junctions (although the consequences of an accident are perforce much greater....