Deer shooting at night?????

pullandbang

Before everyone rounds on me for asking this question...I've never shot deer at any time and know nothing about it.

However, I have heard of people taking to the Dublin Mountains at night with lamps to shoot deer and I didn't think it was legal (or right for that matter). In fact I was asked if I was interested in going and I said no for the above reasons.

And before anyone asks I don't know the names of the gun owners, they would be aquainted with someone I know who asked me because they knew I did a bit of shooting.

Am I right in thinking it's illegal?

johngalway

As far as I know it's not legal to lamp deer no. There may be some licence you can get if they're a real problem, if there is then someone here will come in and say. But, I would be thinking the same way as yourself P&B.

tiny-nioclas

nope thats illegal unless you have a section 42 licence issued to you by the department,which they might???

luckat

It's pretty scary for the inhabitants of the mountains, who go out to walk their land and find some.... person... banging off guns at random.

It wasn't me!

Lamping deer is only by section 42 as far as I know, and they're thin enough on the ground, need a genuine problem to get them as far as I know. It's a shame to know there are so many people out there subverting the laws. Fooks everything up for the rest of us too.

Vegeta

luckat wrote: »

It's pretty scary for the inhabitants of the mountains, who go out to walk their land and find some.... person... banging off guns at random.

well if someone is on land they should not be then there is the problem.

Vegeta

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Lamping deer is only by section 42 as far as I know, and they're thin enough on the ground, need a genuine problem to get them as far as I know. It's a shame to know there are so many people out there subverting the laws. Fooks everything up for the rest of us too.

They could be doing it legally, I hope they are anyway. IWM is right, cowboys only do the sport harm.

pullandbang if you do think they are doing it illegally maybe a quick call to the NPWS would be in order.

Phone number is 01 8882000 I think, ask for Annie Lyons (last bit is a bad joke but the number is from their website)

It wasn't me!

If you're in any way suspicious, then give the NPWS a shout. If they're doing it perfectly legally, then they've nothing to worry about if the rangers check up on them. If, on the other hand, they're doing this illegally, the rangers should definitely be given the heads up. I'd say overall, better to make the call about this one. Can't do any harm and could put a stop to some very dodgy business.

pullandbang

Vegeta wrote: »

They could be doing it legally, I hope they are anyway. IWM is right, cowboys only do the sport harm.

pullandbang if you do think they are doing it illegally maybe a quick call to the NPWS would be in order.

Phone number is 01 8882000 I think, ask for Annie Lyons (last bit is a bad joke but the number is from their website)

I've no qualms about calling NPWS. Problem is I really don't know the names of the individuals with the rifles. As I said this invitation came through a "semi relative" and I turned it down on the basis that I thought it might be illegal and it just didn't seem right. I can appreciate a stalk in daylight but lamping a deer is just not the same as lamping a fox!

Love the Annie Lyons bit....:D....I did come across some real Lions lately while out shooting...but that's another story!

It wasn't me!

I'd say if you know where they were planning on doing it, call anyway, without names. Won't make a difference to the guys out looking for them what they're called.

sixpointfive

people still shooting deer??? not on, report it now, during the deer season wicklow is like vegas with the amount of lamps flying around and to be honest i think the rangers turn a bit of a blind one most of the time, i dont think it will ever be stopped.

johngalway

sixpointfive wrote: »

people still shooting deer??? not on, report it now, during the deer season wicklow is like vegas with the amount of lamps flying around and to be honest i think the rangers turn a bit of a blind one most of the time, i dont think it will ever be stopped.

It's important to make the point that not all lamps are after deer. I know of some quite biased people who think this (not meaning you) and publicise it each and everytime they get an oppertunity.

ivanthehunter

I dont think you know the wicklow mts too well john(could be mistaken) but its very unlikely that genuine folk are knocking about at over 400mAOD (above sea LvL) late at night in the freezing cold after foxes.:p
Anyway poaching is a pastime for many people in the wicklow area and they prob think that theres nothing wrong with. Lets face facts here, neither i or you would ever make much of a change in this age old practice..

All that one can hope for is responsible shooting technique and some respect for their quarry from these devils of the night. the only difference which should exist is the license..

Poaching is probably the worlds second oldest profession....:D

Jonty

ivanthehunter wrote: »

I dont think you know the wicklow mts too well john(could be mistaken) but its very unlikely that genuine folk are knocking about at over 400mAOD (above sea LvL) late at night in the freezing cold after foxes.:p
Anyway poaching is a pastime for many people in the wicklow area and they prob think that theres nothing wrong with. Lets face facts here, neither i or you would ever make much of a change in this age old practice..

All that one can hope for is responsible shooting technique and some respect for their quarry from these devils of the night. the only difference which should exist is the license..

Poaching is probably the worlds second oldest profession....:D

I'm often up there after foxes, I do shoot the foxes to keep farmers sweet for deer shooting.... in season of course. There's a few of us do the same thing, we are all genuine folks.

ivanthehunter

OK i sorry about the generalisition but if you're in the mountains late at night you of all people must see the poaching thats going on... Did you ever drive up Glenmalure late at night and park up with no lights on.. You wont find the teddy bears picnic but you see a load of people out looking for something with torches:rolleyes:
These lads might be shooting fox but being realistic they are popping off deer when they get the chance.. Trust me i have met some of them..

pullandbang

sixpointfive wrote: »

people still shooting deer??? not on, report it now, during the deer season wicklow is like vegas with the amount of lamps flying around and to be honest i think the rangers turn a bit of a blind one most of the time, i dont think it will ever be stopped.

The invitation I got was before Christmas so I can't say whether the people involved are still at it out of season. I only posted it here now because I only recently joined the forum and I just thought of it as I was reading another post today.

irish setter

ok lads lets be honest here there is poaching and then there is taking the mick. i don't do either so lets get that straight first. i hear lads banging on at which type of hunting is traditional to our island but the fact is none are. poaching is because its all people could do and its what they needed to do to survive. i know a man who takes one deer and one salmon a year and i see nothing wrong with that. then i know of where lads can leave 3 of 4 deer dead in a field to rot in 1 night and thats a different story

eoinkildare

ivan,
just cause a whole lot of people poach doesn't make it right. the seasons and the rules are there for a reason.

eoin

johngalway

As I said, some folks don't know it all. Tarring all with the same brush is a strategy that rarely works.

whitser

just cos you see a lamp in the mountains doesnt mean deer shooting. could be shooting foxes or could be likes of me lamping rabbits and foxes with lurchers, not a gun in sight.

NoNameRanger

sixpointfive wrote: »

people still shooting deer??? not on, report it now, during the deer season wicklow is like vegas with the amount of lamps flying around and to be honest i think the rangers turn a bit of a blind one most of the time, i dont think it will ever be stopped.

Come down off that big horse!
Have you ever tried catching poachers? Do you know the amount of work that is involved in taking one poacher to court and having a successful prosecution? Do you know of the amount of other work Rangers have to do besides sitting in the mountains in the freezing cold all night on the off chance that they will catch a lad lamping and have a deer in the boot? Do you realise that Rangers are only allowed to work 39 hours per week and are not allowed overtime or paid for night work? Do you realise that that most Rangers work above the hours that they can claim for because they are dedicated to their cause? Do you realise the risks Rangers take stopping vehicles in the mountains, knowing that the occcupants have guns? Do you know what it is like to walk up to a car wondering if the occupants are drug dealers ready to blow your brains out? Do you know what Rangers get paid for this? The same as the Clerical Officer in the Civil service entering you deer licence details.
Do not make sweeping statements like that, I am a Ranger and i do not turn a blind eye and i don't know of any of my collegues that would either. If the rest of the government employees were as dedicated as Rangers are, we would have a very fine country.

rrpc

TBH, I think deer poaching is on the wane. I used to see lads out with lamps quite regularly and spoke to a few as well. Lately I haven't seen or heard any (that's over the last couple of years) when I would have encountered them at least once a month.

I've a feeling it's due to people being a bit more well off and not bothered anymore.

The Villain

sixpointfive wrote: »

people still shooting deer??? not on, report it now, during the deer season wicklow is like vegas with the amount of lamps flying around and to be honest i think the rangers turn a bit of a blind one most of the time, i dont think it will ever be stopped.

6.5,

I'm a nominated stalker on a current section 42 permit which permits me to shoot deer. Are you going to report me??? I didn't think so. Making general statements and assumptions without hard facts just annoys people who are doing it by the book. And by the way, you don't seem to be the only one on this thread making these generalisations!!

BryanL

It's hard to go out any night of the season in Cork and not see people lamping.almost always it's after rabbits with dogs and it's fairly rare to hear anyone out shooting.it's not all about poaching deer.
I think if the gardai took a reasonable approach to giving people licenses for deer appropiate calibres it would get rid of any deer being taken with .22's or at night?
Bryan

It wasn't me!

The Villain wrote: »

6.5,

I'm a nominated stalker on a current section 42 permit which permits me to shoot deer. Are you going to report me??? I didn't think so. Making general statements and assumptions without hard facts just annoys people who are doing it by the book. And by the way, you don't seem to be the only one on this thread making these generalisations!!

I think the idea is that this could be underhand. If it were someone like yourself doing it completely legally, then they would have nothing to worry about, as all they have to do is show their permit and away they go, but if it were people poaching, then it could be a catch for the NPWS, which would be nice. SO in either case, I think reporting it can't do any harm.

sixpointfive

The Villain wrote: »

6.5,

I'm a nominated stalker on a current section 42 permit which permits me to shoot deer. Are you going to report me??? I didn't think so. Making general statements and assumptions without hard facts just annoys people who are doing it by the book. And by the way, you don't seem to be the only one on this thread making these generalisations!!

im not pointing the finger at anybody but if you are totally in the right then you wont mind getting a knock on the window

"Come down off that big horse!"
No hoss here boss, im simply pointing out that it doesnt appear to joe public that there is alot of people being cought, i apologise if i insulted you with that comment as i didnt realise the bulls#1t and red tape involved in bringing a prosecution for said offence, i am one of the many paying top dollar to coillte for a handful of mornings shooting on a couple of lettings in wicklow that are being fleeced at night and i have seen it myself and reported it and the reg of vehicle but never hear any more back

whitser

why and when was lamping deer made illegal?
if you can lamp and shoot fox and rabbits why not deer? was it a health and safety issue cos of bigger rifles?

It wasn't me!

Deer are a protected species. Same reason you can't lamp hares or pheasants for that matter. Foxes and rabbits are vermin.

Vegeta

whitser wrote: »

why and when was lamping deer made illegal?
if you can lamp and shoot fox and rabbits why not deer? was it a health and safety issue cos of bigger rifles?

I don't have the legal-eese at hand but I am sure its because deer are not vermin.

Vermin are offered very little "protection" in the wildlife act

IRLConor

whitser wrote: »

why and when was lamping deer made illegal?
if you can lamp and shoot fox and rabbits why not deer? was it a health and safety issue cos of bigger rifles?

Section 37 and Section 38 of the Wildlife Act 1976 cover it.

You can't lamp (or hunt at night) any protected wild animal without a permit authorising you to do so. I suspect that the various definitions in the laws allow foxes and rabbits to not be considered "protected wild animals" when hunted for crop/livestock protection. I don't know the appropriate bits of law which cover this though, so you may have to do a bit of digging on http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ to find it.

thelurcher

sixpointfive wrote: »

No hoss here boss, im simply pointing out that it doesnt appear to joe public that there is alot of people being cought

In all fairness I don't think 'joe public' is losing much sleep about this :rolleyes:

Also I don't know much about the area you're talking about but from what I'm told deer are hardly an endangered species up that way - who's to say your field craft is any better or worse than theirs? Speaking for myself - I know a lot of people who 'poach' my permission - and you know why? - they're the ones that showed me it in the first place. It's just that I decided to go the legal route.

And if you are the nominated stalker on a current section 42 permit - be careful who you invite for a night's lamping - that they don't go posting on a public forum 6mths later that you're a 'poacher'

The Villain

thelurcher wrote: »

And if you are the nominated stalker on a current section 42 permit - be careful who you invite for a night's lamping - that they don't go posting on a public forum 6mths later that you're a 'poacher'

Lurcher,

I'm not sure if this was directed at me regarding the current section 42. If it is, I never said that I lamp deer at night-time. My understanding is that you cannot lamp deer, period. I don't lamp, deer, that was the way that I was brought up hunting deer, and that is the way I train my son. I apply the exact same conditions when hunting with the section 42 permit (plus anything additional that my be included, they are particular and individual) as I would when I hunt during the open season.

BTW, This thread seems to be going to and fro between, poachers using lamps to hunt deer, poachers / anybody hunting deer out of season, and poachers using a lamp to hunt deer out of season. I think that the whiole essence of this thread is long lost in vagueness.

Vegeta

thelurcher wrote: »

Also I don't know much about the area you're talking about but from what I'm told deer are hardly an endangered species up that way -

They definitely need culling in some areas, you are spot on there, 100% agree

Personally I still wouldn't poach them though. I just wouldn't want to run the risk.

bunny shooter

BryanL wrote: »

I think if the gardai took a reasonable approach to giving people licenses for deer appropiate calibres it would get rid of any deer being taken with .22's or at night?
Bryan

If you want a calibre to shoot deer you get a deer permit from Duchas or you join an authorised range. Being in an authorised range doesn't entitle you to shoot deer though. Whay are you saying, give people deer calibre licences so they can shoot deer in the absence of a permit ? That's poaching.

BryanL

bunny shooter are you for real? how many people on here have had problems getting fullbore licences?
getting a permit and permission to hunt deer is not enough for some Gardai to give people the licence for an appropiate calibre gun, thats what i'm saying.

also from one of the posts above you can get a section 42 to lamp deer in specific cases.
Bryan

bunny shooter

Yes, I am for real.

If you have a permit to shoot deer, you also need an appropiate calibre, 22-250 or above and vice versa.

To legally shoot deer you need (1) a permit and (2) a legal calibre eg 22-250 or above. That's the law.

If you have a permit you have fulfilled the reason to hold a 22-250 or bigger calibre for firearms licencing regulations. No maybe there are other reasons the Gardai won't grant a licence ? Then maybe there isn't.

But what I'm saying is that you have to have both a permit and a suiltable calibre.

BryanL

If you have a permit to shoot deer, you also need an appropiate calibre, 22-250 or above and vice versa.

exactly! but the problem for some is not getting the permit or the permission but being blocked by gardai.it's the same story as people shooting foxes with .22s because .223 etc are seen as "military" calibres
Bryan

bunny shooter

BryanL wrote: »

but the problem for some is not getting the permit or the permission but being blocked by gardai.it's the same story as people shooting foxes with .22s because .223 etc are seen as "military" calibres
Bryan

Having a permit and using a .22 would be illegal when shooting deer.

Shooting foxes with a .22 is not illegal, and is possible and I've done it, max ranges of 80ish yards. However, I usually use my 220 Swift on them.

If the Gardai don't grant you a suitable licence it doesn't make using a .22 legal on deer.

BryanL

bunny shooter, i know it's not legal and i don't think it's right to use a small calibre on any animal.
i also don't think .22 is appropiate for shooting foxes even in magnum(but thats a slightly separate issue).

i'm not saying if you can't get a licence for an appropiate calibre, to just shoot away! i'm saying people with permission and deer permits should be allowed an appropiate gun licence.

Bryan

bunny shooter

BryanL wrote: »

i'm saying people with permission and deer permits should be allowed an appropiate gun licence.

Bryan

I stated this also.

However, there will always be blatant poaching, with and without appropiate calibres.

Marksmanship, filedcraft, knowledge of the quarry etc are far more important that calibre. Power (as in bigger calibres) is not a susbsitiute for the aforementioned skills.

I know deer hunters who have shot deer with 22 magnum before they were allowed larger calibres and what they've said is they had to get a lot closer for a kill. That takes skills that a large calibre won't replace.

A lot of people believe power replaces accuracy etc.

I have killed foxes with 22lr and never had a "runner", because I know and abide by its and my limitations with it.

thelurcher

No The Villain I wasn't singling anyone out.

Just thinking more about this thread and the reactions of some of ye - ring the authorities!!!!!! What a bunch of aul women

If on your nighttime rambles up the mountains you see a lamp in a field that is neither your property or permission then mind your own feckin business - there's a myriad of reason for them to be out there perfectly legally.

All we need now is for 3 or 4 groups of lads to get prosecuted for 'poaching' deer at night next season - could you imagine how that would play out in the media especially when gormely's gang jump on board - we'd all end up paying for it and don't be codding yourself that it'd be any different.

bunny shooter

thelurcher wrote: »

No The Villain I wasn't singling anyone out.

Just thinking more about this thread and the reactions of some of ye - ring the authorities!!!!!! What a bunch of aul women

If on your nighttime rambles up the mountains you see a lamp in a field that is neither your property or permission then mind your own feckin business - there's a myriad of reason for them to be out there perfectly legally.

All we need now is for 3 or 4 groups of lads to get prosecuted for 'poaching' deer at night next season - could you imagine how that would play out in the media especially when gormely's gang jump on board - we'd all end up paying for it and don't be codding yourself that it'd be any different.

If they are guilty they would be prosecuted. If they are innocent they won't.

If the cowboys were eliminated then the rest of us would be better off :mad:

If you are legal why worry about Gardai being called ?

By your nickname I presume you use a lurcher/s and maybe lamps. Around me there are large areas of ground where this activity is not welcomed by landowners. So if a landowner sees lamps how does he know if its shooting or lurchers if nobody has informed him/her in advance of their presence. Around me i believe Gardai only respond to calls made by the actual landowner, who has every right to do so.

As I said if you're supposed to be there you'll have nothing to worry about.

BryanL

i don't know about anyone else but i don't feel comfortable being stopped by the gardai, while driving taxed,insured,within the speed limit and without a drink.
I've never had a single issue or problem with the gardai and normally only see them when i renew my licence,but still i don't feel comfortable inside the station,don't know why just don't.
i could certainly do without having to go through licences,permission letters etc anytime i go hunting.

if the public are lead to believe that everyone hunting at night is poaching i don't think it'd help anyone.encouraging people to report ever light they see at night would not help.
do you think the restricted firearms list is going to impact on illegaly held guns?
Bryan

whitser

thelurcher wrote: »

No The Villain I wasn't singling anyone out.

Just thinking more about this thread and the reactions of some of ye - ring the authorities!!!!!! What a bunch of aul women

If on your nighttime rambles up the mountains you see a lamp in a field that is neither your property or permission then mind your own feckin business - there's a myriad of reason for them to be out there perfectly legally.

All we need now is for 3 or 4 groups of lads to get prosecuted for 'poaching' deer at night next season - could you imagine how that would play out in the media especially when gormely's gang jump on board - we'd all end up paying for it and don't be codding yourself that it'd be any different.

agreed. no need for lads to be calling the cops cos they seee lamps going. if its not your land mind your own business. let the land owner call the cops if he has a problem. i always let the farmers know when i'll be around with the lamp and i'd say most lads do also.
last thing lampers need,wether the use lurchers or guns is other lampers acting like rangers. we only use lurchers for our lamping,last thing i need when out after fox and rabbit is hassle of cops.

thelurcher

Seriously - here's what I'm saying in easy steps -
- we report guy out poaching deer
- he gets arrested
- he gets prosecuted
- papers get the story
- Joe Duffy does a segment on it
- anti's yet again get some airplay
- fairly emotive subject so anyone sitting on the fence will likely fall over onto the anti's side
- this all makes it easier for gormely and the gang to further restrict those of us hunting legally.

Don't say that wouldn't happen - we've seen similar hassle so many times before!

Good Luck - I'm off for the rest of the day!

bunny shooter

thelurcher wrote: »

Seriously - here's what I'm saying in easy steps -
- we report guy out poaching deer
- he gets arrested
- he gets prosecuted
- papers get the story
- Joe Duffy does a segment on it
- anti's yet again get some airplay
- fairly emotive subject so anyone sitting on the fence will likely fall over onto the anti's side
- this all makes it easier for gormely and the gang to further restrict those of us hunting legally.

Don't say that wouldn't happen - we've seen similar hassle so many times before!

Good Luck - I'm off for the rest of the day!

And news of illegality is good PR ? :rolleyes:

bunny shooter

whitser wrote: »

no need for lads to be calling the cops cos they seee lamps going

No need at all. Cause it's not as if they might be lamping deer, hares, pheasant or duck. Or using lamping as an excuse to prowl around isolated country homes.

Vegeta

Anyone else think there's a big difference between reporting people you know/suspect to be poaching and reporting someone lamping?

And that this is an important distinction to be made at this point.

BryanL

very good point vegeta;)

whitser

bunny shooter wrote: »

No need at all. Cause it's not as if they might be lamping deer, hares, pheasant or duck. Or using lamping as an excuse to prowl around isolated country homes.

for all you know they have permission to be where they are. i think you seem to have a very bad opinion of lurcher men.

bunny shooter

whitser wrote: »

............i think you seem to have a very bad opinion of lurcher men.

Only some of the ones I know