Do you think feminism has gone too far?

thebman

Okay this thread has gone off topic since rape isn't much to do with feminism. I think this thread has gone too far, lol!

Men can be raped too and I'd say it has an even lower report rate since most think (probably rightly so) that'll they'll be left at in their community if they were raped or beaten by a woman.

fly_agaric

taconnol wrote: »

Why? Did you find it sickening when Kylie went public over her breast cancer? She did it to raise awareness and remove the stigma surrounding the disease. Also, to encourage women to go and get themselves checked as she was considered very young to get it.

I've cracked it! "Bulimia" and "Breast Cancer" both begin with B. That's why you've broght up "Kylie" and her Breast Cancer...

taconnol wrote: »

The press were correct to acknowledge that he did a good thing, not only may it have been cathartic for him but it also raised awareness and perhaps removed a bit of the stigma surrounding eating disorders, especially for males sufferers.

Maybe so, but I refer you to Wibbs' post earlier about the uncertain benefits of the injunction everyone seem to be under to let-it-all-hang-out when it comes to their psychological problems and inner feelings.

All those utter weirdos who actually don't want to talk about their problems must be really twisted if even the deptuty pm can admit he was a bulemic in the press! What's up with them?

Dashticle

I remember seeing a girl tear some lad a new arsehole because he held the door open for her. "You don't think I could manage to open it for myself?" she said beofre stopping and properly ripping in to him. That's feminism gone too far.

ART6

Dashticle wrote: »

I remember seeing a girl tear some lad a new arsehole because he held the door open for her. "You don't think I could manage to open it for myself?" she said beofre stopping and properly ripping in to him. That's feminism gone too far.

Not feminism. Just sheer ignorant ill manners.

Macha

fly_agaric wrote: »

I've cracked it! "Bulimia" and "Breast Cancer" both begin with B. That's why you've broght up "Kylie" and her Breast Cancer...

I think the comparison of two life-threatening but often under-detected/reported illnesses is fair.

fly_agaric wrote: »

Maybe so, but I refer you to Wibbs' post earlier about the uncertain benefits of the injunction everyone seem to be under to let-it-all-hang-out when it comes to their psychological problems and inner feelings.

All those utter weirdos who actually don't want to talk about their problems must be really twisted if even the deptuty pm can admit he was a bulemic in the press! What's up with them?

As someone who's been in this situation, I'll just say you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Why is it so OK to 'let it all hang out' about physical problems but not psychological ones in Ireland? May go some way to explaining why we have such a sh*t mental health service.

Wibbs

taconnol wrote: »

As someone who's been in this situation, I'll just say you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Why is it so OK to 'let it all hang out' about physical problems but not psychological ones in Ireland? May go some way to explaining why we have such a sh*t mental health service.

We've a shít mental health system because basically we have a shít medical system, full stop, though I do take your stigma point.

Where I have a problem with this let it all hang out culture is the imposition on those that may not want to let it all hang out, indeed have no need to. It's like taking "feminine" idea of emotions and their exposition as being the ideal. There's quite a bit of that in some forms of "feminism". Let's make men more like women idea and vice versa.

I've heard this from some women to me and others in the past, "why don't you let go with your emotions" type of thing. It usually comes from the emotionally incontinent too, who actually may need help.

Suggesting that's how all men should be "in touch" with their emotions in that way is just as daft as pulling the big boys don't cry, stiff upper lip BS. I welcome that men should express their emotions if they choose to, but we're not "women", indeed a lot of women are not "women" in that way, thank god.

Obviously that's a reflection of my own emotional makeup, but that's just as valid IMHO.

Macha

We have a sh*t mental health service because it isn't a priority. More people die from suicide than from car crashes but look at the publicity and funding that the NRA and others get. Arguably, the deaths from suicide are considerably more preventable.I would argue that the stigma surrounding mental issues in Ireland contributes to the neglect. Throw in a moron of a taoiseach who makes throw-away comments about suicide and the current situation is more understandable.

The whole point of feminism is to get rid of the labels, the pidgeonholes. So trying to stop people thinking about women as more 'emotional, sensitive' and men as more 'stiff upper lip'. So I disagree with your idea of feminism as being 'making men more like women', as the aim of feminism is to get rid of a fixed idea of what being a woman (and man) is.

Moreover, I'm not talking about people sitting down for dinner on a Friday night & having a chat about which therapist they all go to. My original comments were that it was good of Prescott to come forward because it might encourage suffers to seek help privately, not broadcast it to the world. I think fly_agaric misunderstood what i said.

fly_agaric

taconnol wrote: »

I think the comparison of two life-threatening but often under-detected/reported illnesses is fair.

No I don't. I don't see the point of comparing brest cancer and male bulimia. Breast Cancer is not underreported or lacking in publicity.

taconnol wrote: »

As someone who's been in this situation, I'll just say you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Why is it so OK to 'let it all hang out' about physical problems but not psychological ones in Ireland?

Don't know if everyone feels it is OK to "'let it all hang out' about physical problems" as opposed to mental ones but anyways my point was that some people (and I'm not saying this would apply to you or even John Prescott) may be better off not baring their souls in this way and nobody should be put under pressure to. The kind of pressure that might come from the example of public figures and celebrities offering up their psychological issues for voyeristic public examination in the media.

taconnol wrote: »

May go some way to explaining why we have such a sh*t mental health service.

taconnol wrote: »

We have a sh*t mental health service because it isn't a priority.

Are there not other more important reasons for it not being a priority?
God knows it seems all the problems with every aspect of the health service have been given a thorough pubilc airing the past few years witout much progress.

taconnol wrote: »

The whole point of feminism is to get rid of the labels, the pidgeonholes.

People categorise all the time. Feminists are really excellent at it too.
Look at how they can immediately file a man under sexist based on whether they open a door for a woman or not. Or how mothers who are able to abandon their careers stay at home to look after their children can be labelled traitors who betrayed the holy cause etc.

Nevyn

fly_agaric wrote: »

People categorise all the time. Feminists are really excellent at it too.
Look at how they can immediately file a man under sexist based on whether they open a door for a woman or not. Or how mothers who are able to abandon their careers stay at home to look after their children can be labelled traitors who betrayed the holy cause etc.

Really ?

Wow you mean I can't be a feminist cos I should be calling myself a traitor cos I am currently a full time stay at home mother ?

What complete and utter bullcrap.

Opening or not opening a door is as far as I am concerned good manners,
that is not how I define a person as being sexist.

The rubbish that people are spout about what feminism is and what feminists are is like someone hearing 1/3 of a single jazz track and saying the whole genre is up it's own árse.

Macha

fly_agaric wrote: »

No I don't. I don't see the point of comparing brest cancer and male bulimia. Breast Cancer is not underreported or lacking in publicity.

Sorry mate but you just proved my point. If breast cancer is not lacking in publicity Kylie Minogue's public announcement of her illness should have been more sickening to you as it was less likely to achieve more awareness than Prescott's announcement. Thanks

fly_agaric wrote: »

Because some people (I'm not saying this would apply to you or even John Prescott) may be better off not baring their souls in this way and should not be put under pressure to?

The kind of pressure that might come from the example of public figures and celebrities offering up their psychological issues for voyeristic public examination in the media.

Mmm I don't think that sort of pressure exists TBH...what Prescott was trying to encourage was general awareness of the illness, particularly outside the section of the population it's most associated with. I don't think he was putting Mr X with bulimia under pressre to annouce it to the world, just go and seek help privately, as I have already said.

fly_agaric wrote: »

Are there not other more important reasons for it not being a priority?
God knows it seems all the problems with every aspect of the health service have been given a thorough pubilc airing the past few years witout much progress.

So what are these more important reasons for it not being a priority? I personally can't think of any. You're right that there isn't much progress in our health service - it's a bit of a shambles.

fly_agaric wrote: »

People categorise all the time. Feminists are really excellent at it too.
Look at how they can immediately file a man under sexist based on whether they open a door for a woman or not. Or how mothers who are able to abandon their careers stay at home to look after their children can be labelled traitors who betrayed the holy cause etc.

And I suppose it's sod's law that people generalise all the time. Who are 'they', these feminists of which you speak? I'm one of them and I don't consider female homemakers as traitors to the 'cause'. I'm glad they grew up in a society where they were able to make that choice. Please do not lump every female with an opinion in together as 'those darn feminists'. As much as i respect AngelinaJolie, I don't share her points of view on opening doors and nor, I would dare say, do most women (or even feminists!).

It's important to remember that like any movement, feminism has split into many sections and there are almost as many beliefs as there are people who consider themselves feminists. No one person has a monopoly on the feminist philosophy, just their personal take on it. It isn't like the catholic church where there is one leader consolidating and defining what the organisation stands for.

fly_agaric

Thaedydal wrote: »

Really ?

Wow you mean I can't be a feminist cos I should be calling myself a traitor cos I am currently a full time stay at home mother ?

What complete and utter bullcrap.

Opening or not opening a door is as far as I am concerned good manners,
that is not how I define a person as being sexist.

Forgot the some's.
I was just trying to show that feminism can never get rid of labelling. It's something all people do. It can change the labels or invent new categories.

Thaedydal wrote: »

The rubbish that people are spout about what feminism is and what feminists are is like someone hearing 1/3 of a single jazz track and saying the whole genre is up it's own árse.

Don't blame me, I'm not the dj.
I'm not responsible for what people who self-declare as "feminists" put on the decks.

fly_agaric

taconnol wrote: »

Sorry mate but you just proved my point. If breast cancer is not lacking in publicity Kylie Minogue's public announcement of her illness should have been more sickening to you as it was less likely to achieve more awareness than Prescott's announcement. Thanks

Look, your whole train of thought doesn't make much sense to me because I cannot see the connections between bulimia and breast cancer.

Oh yeah - forgot to add - I'm not your "mate"...:)

taconnol wrote: »

Mmm I don't think that sort of pressure exists TBH. I don't think he was putting Mr X with bulimia under pressre to annouce it to the world, just go and seek help privately, as I have already said.

Okay. I think it does.
If this did encourage other people who need it to get help that is a good thing but I still find it distasteful.

taconnol wrote: »

So what are these more important reasons for it not being a priority?

The public want low tax so money will always an issue for the health service entire. The health service in general is seen as not making the most of its resourses.

People and politicians will want money spent on areas where the impact is seen most clearly.

Tragedies averted and lives made better by actions of psychiatrists, psychologists, councellors, and mental health nurses, nurses aides etc working in that area are not as easy to measure as people cured of physical diseases they have been diagnosed with.

taconnol wrote: »

And I suppose it's sod's law that people generalise all the time.

Yes.

Wibbs

Thaedydal wrote: »

is like someone hearing 1/3 of a single jazz track and saying the whole genre is up it's own árse.

In fairness..........

L31mr0d

the problem with feminism is that not all women want it... plenty of women are happy to stay at home and look after the children and be an emotional support for their husband. Plenty of woman accept that men are better in leadership roles... then you have the other hand where women want to be completely equal to men in every way, it then escalates to the point where you have the women who want a complete role reversal.

I personally can't stand the women who call themselves feminists. They tend to like to label all men as chauvinists even if they are trying to just be polite and helpful.

Nevyn

How odd,

Hello L31mr0d,
I am a femnist who likes men,
I don't think a man with manners is a chauvinist,
I am currently deplyed at home being a full time mother and doing what I consdier best for my family and children.

I am still a feminist because I believe in choice and equal oppertunity and will eventually be going back to work out side of the home most likely in engineering where I have my college qualification and worked for two blue chilp companies before taking on the role I now have.

I am able to vote, to go to college to pursue non traditional female subject and work in engineering thanks to the changes brought about by feminism.

I rejoice in the fact that the choices brough about those changes will mean hopfully my daughter will be able to puruse nearly what ever career she wishes instead of having limited options and has opened up so called female traditional career so that my son may have the choice to enter them if he wishes.

I think some people are better in leadership roles and it is not always about gender, it had to be about the ability of the person to lead and that is what is imporant what i between thier ear and not what in thier pants which honestly for me sums up a lot of what feminism is about.

In some ways men and women can never be equal then again two men cant' be said to be equal,
everyone has thier own strengths, skills and talents and everyone should be afforded the equal oppertunity to devleop those skill and pursue thier dreams and that should not be hindered by wether they pee standing up or not.

If my kids grow up to be a welder and a stay at home parent I won't care which one is which but I don't want either of them to feel they can't be either due to thier gender.

Reku

*applauds Thaedydal*



WRT your earlier post though the problem is that a certain 1/3 of a jazz track is playing so loud we can't hear the other artists most of the time, so it's hard to remember there are others playing jazz at times.

Nevyn

Well every group, movement or cause has it's fanatics and it's extremists and they make better sound bite press.

Soccer holiganism to soccer what radical feminists are to feminism.

It's like someone who is from europe who assumes that all of Ireland is like the 6 counties up north for before the good friday agreement because that is all they ever saw on the news.

all the stars

Thaedydal i agree! well said -;)

Mikel

AngelinaJolie wrote: »

...I believe if there were more women in government, more women in business, more women in position of authority and if men took more responsibility in the home, looking after children and so on, it would go a long way to achieving a sexist-free world.....

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.............

John Waters wrote an interesting article on that 1 in 4 survey..

Language on rape issue ideologically booby-trapped

Some attitudes to rape in a recent poll have been branded as outrageous. Is this reaction reasonable, asks John Waters
ALMOST EVERYONE would agree that rape, when it occurs, is a serious and despicable crime, to be met with the full rigour of the law. But fair-minded people would also agree that, precisely because rape is such a serious and despicable crime, we should not assume that such a crime has occurred because an allegation has been made.
Thus, there is something semantically suspect about the persistent claims by groups campaigning on this issue that what they precipitately call rapes are a) not being reported and b) when reported, are not culminating in convictions.
Legally, many allegations of rape can be formally deemed rapes only when convictions have been obtained. Insisting that charges be proved beyond reasonable doubt is not "blaming the victim". It is called due process.
Moreover, reason suggests a gradation of alleged rapes, ranging from violent assault at knifepoint to disputed recollections of alcohol-saturated encounters between people who have been alone together. Such observations provoke extreme reactions in certain quarters.
But this, nonetheless, is the context in which we should properly see this week's widely-publicised exercise in campaigning journalism on public attitudes to rape.
"Rape: Our Blame Culture" was the headline on Wednesday's report of a national opinion poll by the Irish Examiner/Red C which found that significant minorities of respondents had suggested that women might bear some responsibility for their being raped - for example, by wearing revealing clothes, consuming alcohol or drugs, or walking through dangerous areas.
Wednesday's Irish Examiner editorial, "We must stop blaming the victims", referred to "neanderthal beliefs", pretty much anticipating the subsequent consensus of media discussions about what the survey appeared to indicate.
But is this reasonable? Does the word "blame" in this context carry the same meaning as "responsibility"? The pollsters, not the respondents, chose the language, and the language of the rape issue is loaded and ideologically booby-trapped.
If you ask someone whether a person who ventures into a dangerous situation bears some responsibility if something bad befalls them, can you call this blaming the victim? Could such a view not simply reflect a belief that people should not take unnecessary risks?
If the Examiner poll had asked respondents whether they believed that the culpability of an assailant is reduced by the actions, dress or sexual history of a victim, I think it is reasonable to anticipate that close to 100 per cent would have vehemently rejected such a notion.
The issue of what constitutes responsible behaviour is complex. Does any parent of a teenage girl or young woman seriously believe that the way his/her daughter dresses is utterly irrelevant to the question of her safety in a public place? To advise that women should dress prudently, mindful of the evil that may lurk around the corner, is not neanderthal. It is sensible.
About one in 12 alleged rapes is reported to the Garda, and less than 10 per cent of allegations result in convictions. These figures are broadly similar to the UK where, interestingly, one of the problems is that the definition of rape has been massively extended in response to relentless lobbying by rape crisis activists. The result has been a conflation of concepts to the point where every episode in which a woman says she did not consent to sex is accorded the same - enormous - degree of gravity.
However, the introduction of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, by reversing the onus of proof to require the accused to show that consent had not been withheld, had the opposite effect to that intended. Juries have since shown a marked reluctance to treat an incident in which there is a dispute between two people on the question of consent in the same way as a case in which a woman is attacked at knifepoint and brutally assaulted.
The Red C survey found that significant proportions of respondents under various demographic headings felt that a woman who had consumed drugs or alcohol might bear some responsibility in the event of being raped. This, too, has been presented as outrageous.
But, again, it depends on how you define rape. A woman who says she did not consent to sex, say the lobbyists, has been raped. But, because a woman cannot remember saying either Yes or No does not mean that she did not give, or appear to give, her consent to sexual intercourse.
Activists disingenuously seek to depict all such cases as episodes of a man having sex with the prone body of a woman in an alcoholic stupor. But someone in an alcoholic blackout, who will subsequently be unable to remember anything of what is happening, will often appear to be functioning normally, conversing and interacting in a manner that renders tomorrow's amnesia impossible to anticipate.
Is consent to be a matter of reasonable understanding or retrospective deliberation by one party to the encounter? It is ludicrous enough for a woman to sober up and say that, although she cannot remember a thing, she is not the kind of person who would have consented to sex.
For this to be the approach of the legal system is surely............

Thaedydal wrote:

In some ways men and women can never be equal then again two men cant' be said to be equal,
everyone has thier own strengths, skills and talents and everyone should be afforded the equal oppertunity to devleop those skill and pursue thier dreams and that should not be hindered by wether they pee standing up or not.

Agree 100%. That's it in a nutshell