MiM In Smurfit

careeradvise

Hey,

Has anyone done the Masters in Management via Distance Learning at Smurfit?

Thanks

Dinkie

I believe this is the first year this course is running!

mloc

I'm doing the MiM at the moment, but not by distance learning (although by my lecture attendance you might think otherwise har har har).

This is indeed the first year of the course.

Pythia

As far as I know, it's the old DBS (Diploma in Business Studies). They changed it into a Masters so they could milk more cash from the students.

tywy

Came into advertise this at the end of an final Engineering lecture - it was our token businessy module.

The guy came in and the whole lecture theatre pretty much laughed for the whole presentation and then laughed a lot harder when he put up the price tag of €11,100. It got worse when he included that one was required to buy a laptop from a vendor recommended by the college. He should know his market :P

His only comment was 'I've heard about ye engineers'

Don't know anything about the actual course though... but really, Engineers probably aren't his target audience seeing as we all come out with a professional degree with no need to do a masters in order to get a job.

Stepherunie

I wouldn't be surprised if engineers are part of there target market....

SO many CEOs are engineers and a lot of big companies love engineers business wise that is lends itself nicely to it.

Apparently Health Sci aren't, still gonna apply though.

nellybelly

tywy wrote: »

Don't know anything about the actual course though... but really, Engineers probably aren't his target audience seeing as we all come out with a professional degree with no need to do a masters in order to get a job.

a funny point of view, quite typical of engineers... in a rush to sustain some self-appointed sense of elitism, immediately writing-off other options, and failing to understand that University is not solely about getting a job.

In my experience, there are quite a few (if not, a majority of..) engineering graduates who end up in non-engineering careers. With this in mind, you may not be too far from his target audience.

Also, while you are required to have a laptop, it does not have to be from "a vendor recommended by the college".

mloc

Well the guy I'm doing my thesis with is a chemical engineer, so yes, there are definately engineers down there. I myself did pharmacology so there are also health sciencey people there too.

I'm not going to lie, I'm not really finding the course challending in terms of material difficulty, the challenge is more in material volume. It's quite easy to understand (particularly if you've done science or engineering before it) and honestly, the standard of student is quite poor for a masters course. So its basically just **** loads of easy work.

Would I recommend it? Not really. I guess I had higher expectations. I realise that its the first year and will undoubtabtedly improve next year, but from my own personal experience, after the high standards and fantastic staff in my pharmacology degree, I wouldn't recommend it.

Pythia

Engineers have been known to do the Masters in Management Science (renamed M.Sc in Business Analytics).
http://www.smurfitschool.ie/specialistmasters/technology/masterofmanagementscience/curriculum,3969,en.html

graduate

The old Master of Management Science (now M.Sc in Business Analytics) was about half engineers. If you want to continue in something technical this is a good plan, and only €1750, but it will concentrate on analytical and quantitative approaches to business problems, rather than covering general marketing, strategy etc as the MiM does. Different material and more challenging, although engineers are well able for it if programming etc appeals to them.

careeradvise

Pythia wrote: »

As far as I know, it's the old DBS (Diploma in Business Studies). They changed it into a Masters so they could milk more cash from the students.

hmm not sure about it if that is true.

mloc

careeradvise wrote: »

hmm not sure about it if that is true.

It is indeed true. The DBS program was expanded to include some more modules and a thesis, and now its a masters. Last years graduates were offered the opportunity to come back and complete a thesis to have their higher diploma converted into a masters.

careeradvise

Thanks for the input. I still may opt for it. There is a severe lack of choices when it comes to part-time study. I currently work in IT and cannot afford the 30,000 or so it would cost to go back into full-time education.
There is only this and a course from Trinity that I can find of any use. There is a part-time MBA program with Hariots watts in Edinburgh which seems good so will have to really think it through.

mloc wrote: »

It is indeed true. The DBS program was expanded to include some more modules and a thesis, and now its a masters. Last years graduates were offered the opportunity to come back and complete a thesis to have their higher diploma converted into a masters.

blucey

careeradvise wrote: »

Thanks for the input. I still may opt for it. There is a severe lack of choices when it comes to part-time study. I currently work in IT and cannot afford the 30,000 or so it would cost to go back into full-time education.
There is only this and a course from Trinity that I can find of any use. There is a part-time MBA program with Hariots watts in Edinburgh which seems good so will have to really think it through.

What TCD course is that? All the MSc in Mgt courses in TCD are partime, as is the MSc in Finance?
Links to TCD courses

Msc Organizational Behaviour
Msc Management Practice
Msc International Business
Msc Business Administration
Msc Finance
Msc Public Sector Mgt

Beyond that there are a vast number of MBA type courses (usually under the rubric of executive MBA or executive Masters) that follow a similar line to the TCD approach - weekend or bloc teaching. PM me for more details

I.design

Studying the MiM course at the minute. Really good course, this year however its a little up in the air as its the first year its being run....feel like a guinea pig at the minute. :eek:
Anyway, here's the thing, because you are not students from a business background, the course won't make you masters of any one topic in the course. you get a good grasp of how the business world works.

you can also tailor the course to suit yourself, you can choose 4 option modules, things like project management, banking, business law etc.....something for engineers to bare in mind. I studied design before this....totally removed from the business world.

As for the fees.....if you're working for a few years, you can get a grant like I did and it paid for half my fees (€5050) and €3,500 for food, beer etc.

Nice birds too!!

oh.....they're also running the course as a part time course from next year too.

Dinkie

Did anyone apply for this?

I missed the deadline but I see now they have extended it (was originally April 30).

Does anyone know if many have applied? Still can't decided whether to apply or not

ThousandLeaves

If you think you might want to do it apply anyway, it only costs a few quid and you can decide on whether it suits you later on. Always best to keep your options open.

Carlitos

I just paid the 500 quid reg fee, im still a bit unsure about the course. but people seem to say its very interesting and useful. i did comp sci so im looking for a business qualification to mix it up and open more doors.

Does anyone have anymore info on the MiM course? just like the differences between it and undergrad study and how interesting the subjects are.

burnedfaceman

I am also in the process of finishing up this course, I come from an arts background and having initially being reluctant about doing this course, I ended up enjoying it and got a job I would not have got if I had not done this course. I would recommend it as it covers a broad spectrum of subjects which gives you an opportunity to decide what area of business you are interested in if any. Pretty much everyone in class who has actually gone for jobs has been successful in fields such as accountancy,hr, banking, sales, marketing and consultancy. Employers love smurfit graduates its something to do with the way they teach their students.

Anyway heres a list of core subjects from this year.
sem 1
Organisational Behaviour
Marketing
Human Resources
Business Information Systems
Strategy
business research methods

sem2
finance
economics
accounting
international management
plus two options

Options include there are entrepeneurship options not sure what they are off hand though, sales, banking,global marketing, cross cultural management, project management and business law.

Each student also does two options over the summer which are studied in a one week block and has to submit a dissertation by mid august.

By the end of this course you will have covered the same subjects if not more than are done in first and second year of commerce, a friend of mine studied business in dcu and course content is pretty much the same for first two years of course.

Smurfit tends to take as many UCD graduates as they can, there is about 150 on this years course and people on course come from undergrads such as arts predominantly, engineering, social science, law, and science, there probably more im not aware off.

Dinkie

I paid the reg fee also!

I don't have any more infomation then you. I see they are still looking for applications which leads me to think that not many signed up for it - a bit worrying!!!

mloc

There were a couple of people who turned up a week or two before the start of the course, some with poor (poor 2.2 or lower) degrees, and still got in.

Says it all really.

Blut

Friend of mine just got accepted to this course, you guys who're finishing up the year have any advice/experience she really should know about?

mloc

Genuinely, don't do it.

You can spend a year figuring out that for yourself, or you can take my advice. Your choice.

mloc

Genuinely, don't do it.

You can spend a year figuring out that for yourself, or you can take my advice. Your choice.

pferde

I.design wrote: »

Studying the MiM course at the minute. Really good course, this year however its a little up in the air as its the first year its being run....feel like a guinea pig at the minute. :eek:
Anyway, here's the thing, because you are not students from a business background, the course won't make you masters of any one topic in the course. you get a good grasp of how the business world works.

you can also tailor the course to suit yourself, you can choose 4 option modules, things like project management, banking, business law etc.....something for engineers to bare in mind. I studied design before this....totally removed from the business world.

As for the fees.....if you're working for a few years, you can get a grant like I did and it paid for half my fees (€5050) and €3,500 for food, beer etc.

Nice birds too!!

oh.....they're also running the course as a part time course from next year too.

Are there any possibilities to do an internship abroad as part of the course?

Carlitos

mloc wrote: »

Genuinely, don't do it.

You can spend a year figuring out that for yourself, or you can take my advice. Your choice.

Hey, I'm having doubts about the course as i think im doing it coz after coming back from oz i got nothing in the way of a job or career prospects.

You say dont do it, could you tell us why? A few ppl in my course did it and are starting in deloitte soon. Which is defo a job that computer science grads wouldnt have gotten on their own.

As a CompSci grad i never was turned on by the idea of business but from what i hear its a good course. Until i read your post lol

graduate

It depends what you are after, if you want to be in business but take advantage of your computer science then the Smurfit MSc in Business Analytics or the MBS in EBusiness would do the trick. If you want to leave the computer science behind you and go into general business then the MiM is the job. With the shortage of people in IT the former would seem to make sense.

thewondersheep

hey guys i am doing the course at the moment and I would like to add my two cents.
While it is true that the course isnt the most academically 'challenging' thing in the world, i wouldnt disqualify it from being a worthwhile exercise on that account. I have, what I would consider a reasonably strong academic background, but there were plenty of other things the course has allowed me to work on and I am better rounded because of it.
First of all if I had embarked on a business career this time last year (I am a qualified health professional) I genuinely wouldnt have known what the best route for me was, and could have easily embarked on a career that was unsuitable. So in terms of helping me plan a path for my future, the course definitely helped me see things a lot clearer. This process was helped along by the material I was exposed to and the other students and lecturers-I in paticular remember one conversation where a lecturer helped me decide between two different jobs, pointing out the experience and qualifications each would afford me.
I wouldnt underestimate the group work bit either- you learn to handle people better, and employers are interested to hear about this.
I am starting to get a bit frustrated when I hear that people dont find this and that challenging. Maybe the MiM wont get you a job in Goldman Sachs or the likes-a lot of the people tried for Davys but no one got it- and to some people this renders the course worthless. Look, first of all if you want to do those sorts of jobs find some masters in finance etc as the course will not give you specialist skills, but it is valuable for plenty of other things.:rolleyes:
From recent experiences, I have realised cleverness isnt everything. Employers want someone who will fit in well, want to do the job and are easy to work with; the course helps ou towards this, and it is good enough on paper too. Many students and applicants however, spend most of their time trying to prove there are cleverer than everybody else, and this explains a lot of the snobbery surronding the course. At
Well that was more like two dollars, I will try to keep it snappy next time!:)

Slippers

thewondersheep wrote: »

Maybe the MiM wont get you a job in Goldman Sachs or the likes

I was at a Goldman Sachs recruitment event in the Four Seasons last November and they had brought some Irish employees over from London to talk about the company. One of them was a trader. He was from Cork and had done Chemistry and then a Diploma in Business Studies in Smurfit. He's on page eight of the current ('08/'09) Smurfit prospectus if anyone has it - the one holding a cup.

edit: He may have done the Diploma in Entrepreneurial Studies, but that has been replaced by the MiM too.

thewondersheep

I apologise Slippers; just goes to show that maybe I am undestimating the course and people on it. I just thought it was unlikely (Like I said, I didnt know anyone who got a job in the ib sector this year, although they are hardly screaming for candidates at the moment) Some of the people rejected from Davy were very good candidates (Clever, nice, good to work with) and said that the people getting ahead of them had more specialist finance backgrounds. Having said that, I have been encouraged by most people giving career advice that the course combined with a strong primary degree should set me in good stead for many jobs, so maybe 'Goldman Sachs and the likes' isnt impossible, I just think its bloody hard!

Slippers

No need to apologise.:)

Did the people rejected by Davy have numerical/mathematical primary degrees or something else?

thewondersheep

I wouldnt like to discuss anyone on the course directly, but some people did have a background that could relate to the job. I do have a friend that says that a smurfit finance masters got him his job in RBS in London, and I would think they make you a stronger candidate on paper than someone in our course. I think if I was sure IB or other types of high finance is what i wanted to pursue, I would personally follow this route.
But then again I dont work in this area and I dont recruit for them.

Slippers

I did a BSc in Statistics and a Higher Diploma in Statistics myself, but I like the idea of a broad course such as the MiM to help me get my bearings. I've also heard Trinity is launching a similar course next year called Global Business, so, I have some more research to do.

mloc

I have heard, from a source close to management in Smurfit, that there is gonna be a bit of a shake up next year. People are getting pretty pissed off with abysmal academic standards and particularly, entry standards.

The current reputation of the MiM as "4th year arts" and "you cant fail unless your cheque bounces" is something that is becoming a problem in terms of international reputation, which by all reports, is plummetting.

nellybelly

Well, i would guess that magically turning a Graduate Diploma level course into a Master's does not necessarily mean that the graduates are also magically worthy of the new qualification. I realise that there is now more work involved..but i'm almost sure that it doesn't warrant a Master's, which is generally seen as a higher degree following on from some suitable undergraduate degree.

IMHO, if anything, the creation of MiM has not resulted in a plummeting reputation for its own graduates (given that it is new, and GDip grads would not have been expected to have Master's level knowledge), but has probably served to dilute the reputation of other Master's degrees offered by Smurfit School.

Sionnachster

Well that all makes unpleasent reading!! I was pretty much looking forward to the prospect of starting the MiM next month in Smurfit....

My information from outside the university is nowhere near strong enough to counter these points but I'm not so sure Smurfit is well known for plummeting standards. Some of the research I did before applying pushed me heavily towards gaining a Smurfit qualification. The MiM Part-time suits me perfectly, I'm from a science background to Masters level and avoided business subjects my whole life. But since landing a strong management role I've realised the importance of some knowledge of Business in the workplace. Therefore, as I am in full time employment I hoped this course would promise to be an excellent learning curve.

For anyone else doing it, I was told that they expect a minimum of 20 hours a week study? Anyone got any views on this? Existing students of the 1-year option got any advice on how to tackle assignments or exams if they had to do it all again?

mloc - would you say the part-time version has the potential to improve as part of this shake up?

mloc

Ok I suppose I haven't been so objective in my "appraisal" so far; I'll try to be more comprehensive now. The statements below of course only represent my own opinion and I'm sure contrasting opinions may exist.

1) From my experience, the standard of grading etc., certainly compared to my undergraduate degree is somewhere between being a joke, slightly dubious and a result of pure laziness. Noone fails and when someone does, the uproar and "blaming the lecturer" approach usually ensures the mark is "corrected" to a passing grade.

2) The standard of student varies dramatically. As a masters degree, basic literacy is something you would expect but I can assure you there is a strong contingency lacking in this department. Obviously, as group work is exactly that; work marked as a group, it can prove frustrating when contributions from other members of the group are of pre-junior cert standard and fit only for filling the recycle bin. This might sound like exaggeration; unfortunately, it is not.

3) The standard of lectures/lecturers is VERY poor for a paid masters course in such a so called 'prestigious, exclusive' university. Most are PhD students with little or no experience, some have very poor english and others belong on a stage, not in a lecture theatre. In my opinion, I would say of the 15 or so lecturers this year, maybe 5 were good with about 2 being very good. None were excellent.

4) In my opinion, the degree provides you with no true competency in any area of business nor is it a recognised as a "business degree" in the conventional academic sense as a commerce degree would be; many students realise this afterwards and are forced into a position of persuing another masters (such as an MBS) at additional expense. In this regard, it really is diploma level. It would seem two modules have been tacked on the end along with what must be the biggest joke of a thesis (20k words between up to 3 people as your major thesis?) in order for it to justify the extra cost and credentials as a masters.

5) I would hazard a guess that the reason people who got jobs in this course did was very little to do with this masters and mostly to do with thier undergraduate degree.

So what are the pros?

1) If you have already completed a decent degree or are in any way academic, you won't have to work very much. At the workrate of say final year engineering or science, you could probably squeeze this masters into about 3 months.

2) It does give you a basic grounding in a wide variety of business subjects. Emphasise basic.

3) It's a great way to meet people, it's very social. I'm not going to lie and say you'll make lots of business contacts, you probably won't.

4) The campus is quite nice. Leafy and so on.

5) Most employers are still a bit slow on the uptake and don't realise the comparative worthlessness of this degree. In my opinion, a year of work experience in a decent large company and read of a few management books would produce a FAR better candidate and save you 12k in the process.

Thats it really. The fact that it's called MiM (that is, abbreviating the In to an i, basically for marketing purposes so people can say Mim) instead of MM or MMgt underlines the hollowness of the degree. In conclusion, in my experience, I would say that it is essentially like a year long summer camp for the business challenged.

Sionnachster

There I was thinking I was clever getting a second masters in a completely different filed of academia but now it is being filed under worthless??

mloc - you don't work for trinity do you!!!

Thanks for your opinion anyway, food for thought...... unfortunately, it's the only one that fits into my work and lifestyle so I may just proceed and be a blind fool ignoring the warnings.....

Anyone got any good opinions of the MiM? Please? I'll pay!!

mloc

To be honest, a lot of people doing the course at the moment seem to have a different opinion to me so I'd say you'll probably find some positive opinions soon enough!

Dinkie

Hi,

I'm starting the MiM (distance learning) in September.....

I've read all the various reviews, etc, etc.... but at the end of the day it covers everything I want a course to:

1. I have a science degree and it will give me a foundation in business (I felt I might be out of my depth doing an MBA and I wouldn't have been accepted to do it where I wanted to)

2. Its distance learning so fits around my work

3. It will give me a chance to meet people - also studying - so hopefully that will make it easier... and there will be a nice mix of ages and experience (again hopefully)

4. I can afford it

5. I have heard bad things about about Smurfit (esp here), but at the end of the day they do have a good name, and they have to live up to that. If the course isn't great, the onus is on them to improve it. If they don't, people won't do the course and they won't make any money.

6. I know people are saying that this is just another name for a grad dip, etc... but usually the only difference between grad dips and Masters is the depth of the project.

Personally I'm looking forward to starting... although i'm a bit nervous about having to study again

Sionnachster

Mloc - Thanks anyway, there is nothing wrong with varied opinions so I'd be nervous if there had been nothing bad to say.

Dinkie - You pretty much summed up my reasons for doing it also. My background is also in science and totally removed from the business world but it's time that changed which is why I'm also starting the MiM Distance Learning next month.

I was pretty sure my major study days were behind me and I'll need a total change of tack as it is distance learning, meaning a lot of it will be off your own back. I'm looking forward to it although I must admit to being pretty shocked at some of the negative things I read here.

20 hours a week study?!?! That's basically 3 hours after work each day? That's what worries me because that just won't happen!!!

mloc

They told us they wanted 50 hours a week (in the full time course). With the exception of the end of term rush to get projects done, I'd say my average week was about the 5 hour region. Maybe less.

Still got mostly As.

Économiste Monétaire

Everyone is different is regards to required study time. What will take you an hour to learn, might take another person 10 minutes or two hours. Twenty hours study is just a guideline.

burnedfaceman

There is a huge amount of intellectual snobbery going on in this thread,albeit certain students were poor and unmotivated. In general I found a large majority of my classmates absolutely no problem to work with.If your not working in groups with the weaker students you wont have a problem.

The course is designed for non business graduates to give them a broad understanding of business and in this regard the course allows students to gain a grounding in subjects they would not have otherwise covered and allows them the opportunity to decide which area of business they are interested in.

In this regard the course has delivered jobs where otherwise people would not have got them. If anyone is considering this course as containing subjects which will lead to employment in a specific specialised area they are wrong and should or should have pursue/pursued an MBS in that field.However if you come from a non-business background and wish to be in a position to get into business then this course is the one for you.

dx22

I agree with burnedfaceman, i have signed up for this course (part-time) and it does exactly what it says on the tin. If you read the course syllabus it is designed for non-business grads and it is very broad material.I am looking forward to it and just like any of these things im sure you will get as much out of it as you put in to it!!

niallf1

Has anyone got any advice on the subjects to do within this course?

Hornblower_live

Slippers wrote: »

I did a BSc in Statistics and a Higher Diploma in Statistics myself, but I like the idea of a broad course such as the MiM to help me get my bearings. I've also heard Trinity is launching a similar course next year called Global Business, so, I have some more research to do.

Slippers : Do you have any info on that? Is there a website? Any details?

Slippers

All I have is the name and that it's starting in 2009. I was in email contact with professor Brian Lucey in Trinity about the MSc in Finance and it came up, but I don't know if he's directly involved. Unless I'm mistaken, he posts here as blucey so if you start a thread in the TCD forum he might be able to get you some more information.

PiZaRR-0

Employers love smurfit graduates its something to do with the way they teach their students.

There's lots of talk about it having a great name. Most decent companies dont employ someone because they have gone to a college with a "good-name".

There's FAR more options than smurfit out there. From about 5 or so interviews I've gone to during the summer for varying position from finance to marketing any time I've mentioned smurfit most of them say why smurfit? Just becasue it has a good name?

Obviously most business related grads wont go near this course, but my main point is dont pick it because loads of people you know do it or because you think by going to smurfit you'll get a job easier. Thats nonsense.

In fact in one interview I went to in relation to a Funds Management place the interviewer told me quite frankly, no Smurfit MiM grad I've interviewed so far has been suitable, most seem to think because they have gone to smurfit they deserve the job. The interviewers seemed overall to take preference to other post grads from D.C.U. and D.I.T. and Maynooth.

So dont just do it for the sake of its apparent good reputation, also the admin in Smurfit is a joke.

burnedfaceman

I never stated you will get a job just because you attended smurfit rather I stated that employers loved smurfit graduates which originates from the manner in which they are thought. Constant group work,presentations etc.

The interviewer who stated no MIM graduates were unsuitable for the job was either being extremely unprofessional or trying to test your reaction.

Are you finished the MIM course this year? The careers adviser in smurfit advised the students on course not to go near fund management as its a dead end job with huge levels of staff turnover. I have two friends working in this field who would agree with this statement and are moving on from their jobs in the next few weeks

nellybelly

burnedfaceman wrote:

The careers adviser in smurfit advised the students on course not to go near fund management as its a dead end job with huge levels of staff turnover.

I think you're thinking of fund administration... I wouldn't go turning down any fund manager jobs if i were you!