Brandi Hawbaker R.I.P.

HoLLLLLaments

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=182378

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

ianmc38

That's sick.

the whole year inn

she was crazy still hope not true.This is prob true so RIP!Why would anyone lie about this!Terrible news

Daithio

That is so messed up.

I honestly think that the powers that be at 2plus2 have alot to answer for. They let that whole situation escalate completely out of control back when it started, and essentially used a vulnerable and mentally unstable person for their own benefit. The same can be said for NWP.

Sure, she played a massive part in the process, but there's no way it would have escalated this far out of control if it wasn't for the complete lack of moderation on that forum.

It's really really sick what has happened IMO, and alot of people should be extremely ashamed of themselves.

AdMMM

Cliffs Notes?

semibluff

.

NickyOD

Daithio wrote: »

That is so messed up.

I honestly think that the powers that be at 2plus2 have alot to answer for. They let that whole situation escalate completely out of control back when it started, and essentially used a vulnerable and mentally unstable person for their own benefit. The same can be said for NWP.

Sure, she played a massive part in the process, but there's no way it would have escalated this far out of control if it wasn't for the complete lack of moderation on that forum.

It's really really sick what has happened IMO, and alot of people should be extremely ashamed of themselves.

Yeah I totally agree with this. Sklanksy has shown himself to be a completely classless individual.

semibluff

|.Murderer.| wrote: »

Cliffs Notes?

c

NickyOD

David Sklansky,

Did you really write this?

"... leave the poker world forever. Ply your trade elsewhere. Suicide wouldn't be a bad option either. If you do that I will promise to stop badmouthing you."

cooker3

Hope all the nvg tards are happy now.
Pretty depressing

Mr.Plough

just wow

Ste05

Very sad news indeed. Suicide and depression are always horrible to hear about.

There are some unbelievably classless posters on 2+2.

mocata

Defies belief how people can discover a way to communicate so effortlessly with 1000's of others, and use it to vent their bile behind a cloak of anonymity.

sproodles

The entire story behind this is disgusting, the outcome is disgusting, the fact that I know all about it and dont know anyone involved is disgusting.
Makes me long for the days of pay phones and stop watches.

Ollieboy

Daithio wrote: »

That is so messed up.

I honestly think that the powers that be at 2plus2 have alot to answer for. They let that whole situation escalate completely out of control back when it started, and essentially used a vulnerable and mentally unstable person for their own benefit. The same can be said for NWP.

Sure, she played a massive part in the process, but there's no way it would have escalated this far out of control if it wasn't for the complete lack of moderation on that forum.

It's really really sick what has happened IMO, and alot of people should be extremely ashamed of themselves.

Totally agree with the above comments. After reading the other threads, I didnt see any other outcome but that young woman to take her life. She felt the world and turn against her, when actually it was only a small percentage of muppets from the poker world. I think this whole thing shows poker in its true colours in a lot of different ways. Very sad and typical of people on 2+2.

TommyGunne

Never was "NVG tards" truer. Some people have no decency. Whole thing is so messed up.

YULETIRED

I know it's probably a sensitive subject but what is this all about.

Who is Brandy ?




Ok, Im sorry I asked now...

never mind *sigh*

NickyOD

new thread here

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=182504

ArmaniJeanss

YULETIRED wrote: »

I know it's probably a sensitive subject but what is this all about.

Who is Brandy ?

Theres no good starting point to explain really.
Maybe try here and the link to 2+2 near the top.
http://sirfwalgman.blogspot.com/2008/01/brandi-cliff-notes.html

Ste05

I changed the thread title.

Fatboydim

Bullet points for those who never read the original posts.

Way back Brandi posted on 2+2 NVG forum. Accusing Tom Franklin - a reasonably well known professional poker player of age. Of some unsavoury stuff. Essentially it amounted to young naive girl receiving poker lessons from him but at a cost. The cost was a rather bizarre sexual assault of sorts.

Brandi put this up on the web - But the counter was that she knew what she was doing. The thread expanded into a massive amount of posts of claim and counter claim. Brandi was called all sorts of things. Then she got hooked up with another player who had just won a big event. [Sorry forget name] He was sympathetic to Brandi until she lost a good deal of his online bankroll and then she cut her wrists in his hotel bathroom and wrote in blood on the walls "One Day I will fly"

Cue even more posts on 2+2.

Then the latest was a post by Sklansky where he accused Brandi of being about to bribe him by posting allegations about his affair with a mentally and physically handicapped girl of 19 / 20 I think. Who was the product of incest. This involved sexual advances by this old man on Brandi and some sort of messing with a vibrator he keeps in his glovebox.

So Brandi was an attention seeking, disturbed person, who because she was the right side of attractive got plenty of attention from the poker playing world. [Because she did play poker reasonably well every now and then.]

On 2+2 the abuse she got was unreal and she kind of enjoyed the notoriety on a level - was partly to blame - But most of the 2 + 2ers overlooked the fact that she obviously needed help.

So that's it in a nutshell.

What can we learn from it? Well I think as posted here - Moderated forums are a must. And with Stephen McClean's recent post about anonymity - Perhaps it's time that something is done about that. As there is no doubt that many keyboard warrior types would be less willing to flame if their identities were out there.

CaptainNemo

I just caught up on the whole story and it sounds pretty sad.

I created an account on 2+2 but never posted there because the impression I get is that it's a pretty cruel and emotionless place where the loudest voices are affectless misanthropes. You can always tell the posters on boards who also post regularly on 2+2 - their writing style has become terse, mocking and utterly direct, and full of in-jokes.

It seems like someone deeply involved in the poker community, and in posting on 2+2, who also had serious emotional/mental problems, would be in probably the worst possible situation. It seems like Brandi was literally roasted alive by the community there and this is the result.

Serious business, indeed...

Jools Poker

jeez what a sad sad end to a sorry saga....fkn hell:( RIP

StephenInsane

Weird. Only ever used 2+2 for reading strat, never knew it was such a bizarre place.

mickc

StephenInsane wrote: »

Weird. Only ever used 2+2 for reading strat, never knew it was such a bizarre place.

once you find NVG your life is never the same again, usually for the worse.*


*although some of the photoshop threads are very good

Hectorjelly

Its sad that she killed herself, but dont forget she was a crazy sociopath who repeatedly ripped her friends and lovers off. The people on 2+2 didn't create brandi, they were just her willing audience. (As was I and many other people from this board)

Marq

I would estimate that NVG contributed to Brandi's death in roughly the same way that the availability of jameson contributes to the death of an alcoholic.

Hectorjelly

very good analogy

YULETIRED

Marq wrote: »

I would estimate that NVG contributed to Brandi's death in roughly the same way that the availability of jameson contributes to the death of an alcoholic.

Don't you mean brandy?

I'm reminded of the guy on washington bridge in Seattle who was threatening to jump off in an obvious suicide attempt. It was rush hour and the good people of Seattle were most annoyed. Many of them shouting JUMP, JUMP......I don't think they were the reason he got up on the bridge BUT I'm sure their chanting didn't exactly help things...


Don't diss the Jemmy MarQ.

smurph

Marq wrote: »

I would estimate that NVG contributed to Brandi's death in roughly the same way that the availability of jameson contributes to the death of an alcoholic.

What does NVG stand for....?

mewso

Sad as it is we do need to get a grip here. You can't post on forums worrying that there might be some loon who upon reading it will go over the edge. You've always needed a tough skin online pure and simple. I try to be responsible in what I say here and on other sites. Others don't give two hoots but I'm happy to give them the right not to give two hoots. I agree I see very little to warm me to posters on 2+2 but I'm not going to accuse them of murder.

Marq

News, Views and Gossip - the forum on 2+2 where she got a lot of abuse and attention.

I agree with everything Muso said above.

mdwexford

I dont know the full story but from the links and stuff ive read bits of it seems like she was scum. Blaming twoplustwo seems ridiculous.

Hectorjelly

YULETIRED wrote: »

Don't you mean brandy?

I'm reminded of the guy on washington bridge in Seattle who was threatening to jump off in an obvious suicide attempt. It was rush hour and the good people of Seattle were most annoyed. Many of them shouting JUMP, JUMP......I don't think they were the reason he got up on the bridge BUT I'm sure their chanting didn't exactly help things...


Don't diss the Jemmy MarQ.

did he jump?

Ste05

Without Brandi getting help she probably would have ended up the same way regardless of 2+2, NWP, etc. hence why I kind of agree with your analogy, (i.e. if it wasn't Poker and 2+2, it may have been Warcraft and some other forum, etc. etc.)

But regardless, Sklansky (who part owns 2+2) was highly involved in the whole thing, and made LOADS of posts about her and her goings ons, (after her initial Captain Tom and other drama bombs) to increase traffic on 2+2, similarly the mods/owners let Pimprexel etc. etc. post another load of stuff about her, to say 2+2 had nothing to do with her getting pushed over the edge is wrong IMO. I don't blame the people/ community so much, as they are just adolascent boys and immature young males by and large (Brandi's Intended Audience in her self promotion really), but if the likes of Sklansky, etc. etc. knew her personally (as they did) and used her not only to increase her profile but also to increase hits on their site, I think some responsibility needs to be laid on their door. In the past few months it hasn't been her posting stuff about Brandi, it's been Brandon (Pimprexel her on/off BF), Sklansky, etc. etc. etc. so she wasn't as much of an attention seeker as before she became "semi-famous".

Again depression is a disease, just like many others, which IMO all end in death if untreated, hence without Brandi getting treatment from real Friends (if she had any) or family the end result would probably have been the same regardless of 2+2, but I do think at the very least 2+2, NWP, etc. at the very least speeded up her demise and had a greater than 0 effect on her mental health.

Marq

resign.

YULETIRED

Hectorjelly wrote: »

did he jump?

I believe he was coaxed down by the CEO of Jameson, he was offered a lifetimes supply. He died last year of liver failure.....meanwhile the traffic isn't getting any better

In truth he didn't jump. Perhaps he was stubborn like me and the cries of JUMP JUMP made him dig his heels in........reverse psychology ? (spelling bad ?)

Samba

Hectorjelly wrote: »

very good analogy

Agreed but on the other hand it is reminiscent of the ruling given in the recent William Hill court saga.

I think it's very presumptious to assume her life would have taken the same course regardless of certain events/threads.

Very unfortunate to see any fellow human take their own life even taking into account their actions during their time on earth.

Ste05

Marq wrote: »

resign.

Hectorjelly

Im looking forward to our first boards (poker) suicide. I wonder who it will be. I suppose it would be bad form to run a book.

Ste05

Hectorjelly wrote: »

Im looking forward to our first boards (poker) suicide. I wonder who it will be. I suppose it would be bad form to run a book.

For some reason I laughed out load to that, but eh, unless there's more calls for my resignation as a mod, I'm gonna put my mod hat on and say, let's not run a book.

Samba

it would only be open to abuse with fake death collusion

Marq

I'm in.

YULETIRED

Hectorjelly wrote: »

Im looking forward to our first boards (poker) suicide. I wonder who it will be. I suppose it would be bad form to run a book.

Well HJ, perhaps this talk should be tapered down a tad, suicide is a big problem in ireland atm and you never know who is reading this that may have been effected by a family members sad demise. In fact if possible mods delete my posts in this thread that appear insensitive. I was making a point about the guy on the bridge (true story) but it's probably in bad taste.....

coillcam

Ste05 wrote: »

Without Brandi getting help she probably would have ended up the same way regardless of 2+2, NWP, etc. hence why I kind of agree with your analogy, (i.e. if it wasn't Poker and 2+2, it may have been Warcraft and some other forum, etc. etc.)

But regardless, Sklansky (who part owns 2+2) was highly involved in the whole thing, and made LOADS of posts about her and her goings ons, similarly the mods/owners let Pimprexel etc. etc. post another load of stuff about her, to say 2+2 had nothing to do with her getting pushed over the edge is wrong IMO. I don't blame the people/ community so much, as they are just adolascent boys and immature young males by and large (Brandi's Intended Audience in her self promotion really), but if the likes of Sklansky, etc. etc. knew her personally (as they did) and used her not only to increase her profile but also to increase hits on their site, I think some responsibility needs to be laid on their door.

Again depression is a disease, just like many others, which IMO all end in death if untreated, hence without Brandi getting treatment from real Friends (if she had any) or family the end result would probably have been the same regardless of 2+2, but I do think at the very least 2+2, NWP, etc. at the very least speeded up her demise and had a greater than 0 effect on her mental health.

Good Post Ste05, I didn't follow he whole saga TBH but had seen bits and pieces and by all accounts she seemed a very strange person. There is plenty out there for those guys on the forums to answer for. Mental illness/depression is treatable and managable, it doesn't help to have your life critiqued and analysed by the masses of wa@nkers on those sites. Irregardless of the morals/ethics/implecations this a very tragic event and I hope all the people who participated in the whole baiting process take a good hard introspective view on things.

Wreck

Hectorjelly wrote: »

Its sad that she killed herself, but dont forget she was a crazy sociopath who repeatedly ripped her friends and lovers off. The people on 2+2 didn't create brandi, they were just her willing audience. (As was I and many other people from this board)

Marq wrote: »

I would estimate that NVG contributed to Brandi's death in roughly the same way that the availability of jameson contributes to the death of an alcoholic.

Both of the above QFT.

Blaming stuff posted on 2+2 for her death is laughable.

smurph

Mental Ilness/Depression which can lead to suicide is an ever growing problem in Ireland and indeed worldwide. The people who are left behind to try to make some sense of the whole thing are effected terribly, ie, the direct family and friends. They feel a sense of shame for not doing more to help the person, or feel bad because they did not recognise the signs etc.,

I think that this thread should be kept (for once) on track and not descend into another lol/retard/rofl type of comments.

I think her death is indeed very sad her family and close friends....

Requiem4adream

Hectorjelly wrote: »

Im looking forward to our first boards (poker) suicide. I wonder who it will be. I suppose it would be bad form to run a book.

I know that's a joke so i'm gonna count to 10 for once and say it's in poor taste imo.

I was gonna do something a little more theory based for 1000th post, it's an arbitrary number, meaningless really but seems to be the done thing.

Instead i'm gonna quote a small passage from a 1978 speech from Alexander Solzhenitsyn at Harvard University-

"What is this Joy About?"

"When the modern Western states were created, the principle was proclaimed that governments are meant to serve man and man lives to be free and to pursue happiness. See, for example, the American Declaration of Independence. Now, at last, during past decades technical and social progress has permitted the realization of such aspirations: the welfare state.

Every citizen has been granted the desired freedom and material goods in such quantity and of such quality as to guarantee in theory the achievement of happiness -- in the debased sense of the word which has come into being during those same decades. In the process, however, one psychological detail has been overlooked: the constant desire to have still more things and a still better life and the struggle to attain them imprints many Western faces with worry and even depression, though it is customary to conceal such feelings. Active and tense competition fills all human thoughts without opening a way to free spiritual development.

The individual's independence from many types of state pressure has been guaranteed. The majority of people have been granted well-being to an extent their fathers and grandfathers could not even dream about. It has become possible to raise young people according to these ideals, leaving them to physical splendor, happiness, possession of material goods, money, and leisure, to an almost unlimited freedom of enjoyment. So who should now renounce all this? Why? And for what should one risk one's precious life in defense of common values and particularly in such nebulous cases when the security of one's nation must be defended in a distant country? Even biology knows that habitual, extreme safety and well-being are not advantageous for a living organism. Today, well-being in the life of Western society has begun to reveal its pernicious mask."


You can take from that what you want, i've highlighted the bits that made me think. Imo, notwithstanding any other issues, poker can be a mentally taxing game in more ways than one. This is a sad case, any preventable death is sad.

Also, it does make you very glad for Boards.ie in comparison to those other sites, it's populated with right minded, good thinking people, even if it does have it's odd moment of drama.

Fatboydim

I think Marq's analogy is good but slightly wrong - as it could be argued that by allowing the threads to stand on 2+2 the moderators of that forum were like barmen continuing to serve a customer who has obviously had one too many and whom they know has a problem. The reply is not simply to say - well if I don't serve them drink then they'll get it elsewhere.

I like to think that our mods would have been far more sensible.

One things for sure Dev would not stand for the kind of abuse meeted out to posters on 2+2.

Hectorjelly

One of the ex-flat mates killed themselves a few years ago. He had moved to New York and I hadnt seen him for a year or two. Its ironic, he was a strange chap who constantly struggled with depression. But I heard that before his death his life had gotten a lot better. He had a good job as a photographer and was engaged to be married, but he ended up hanging himself.

Anyway, wherever he is now Im pretty sure he isnt acting all po-faced and serious about his demise. He enjoyed good natured ribbing as much as anyone, Its a sad life that has no humour in it - and I would say the same thing about death. My grandad was a terrible alcoholic who destroyed his career, than his family and ended up dead at 60. We buried him with a large bottle of Jameson.

The point is that humour helps us get through difficult situations. Nothing can bring someone back from the dead, but joking about it can help ease the pain of the living.