Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Cost of setting up a website.

Options
124

Comments

  • Options
    #92
    The Mighty Ken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 586 ✭✭✭The Mighty Ken


    Two points to make, dublindude:

    1) Both of your sites are poorly built. And that's only after having a cursory look under the bonnet. Staff.ie has a clean and functional design; Dole.ie looks pretty crude.

    2) A staggering number of potential clients approach me each year after having been burned after outsourcing to India, Romania, etc. I say potential as I generally refuse to work with them as they're still looking to do things on the cheap.

    If most (or even all) of the outsourcing companies in Asia or Eastern Europe can't compete on quality, why should I (or any competent designer) compete on price? Your advice to the OP isn't good advice... but it's entirely his/her prerogative to do whatever he/she likes. If people want to do things on the cheap, I wouldn't necessarily feel threatened. Go for it, I say! I'll see you in a few months. :cool:


  • Options
    #93
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    I don't mind your opinions on my sites (everyone has different opinions on every site - that's cool) but your statement that countries in Asia and Eastern Europe can't produce quality is really unfair.

    Can you clear this up once and for all -

    Why are Asians and Eastern Europeans so bad at design work and programming? Is it because...

    1. They are they less intelligent than Western Europeans?
    2. They have bad eye sight?
    3. Their Universities, books and design tools are inferior to ours?
    4. Some other physical or mental issue?
    5. Their wages are lower and you feel extremely threatened by this?

    I find your anti-Asian and anti-Eastern European comments to be borderline racist. You cannot make such sweeping generalisations about entire groups of people.

    Please, explain why they cannot produce quality work.

    If you mean to say "I have heard of some people who were unhappy with the website they outsourced", that's fine, but you could apply the same anecdotal evidence to Irish designers.

    PS If "The Mighty Ken" = Ken Stanley = Laslo, we've had this conversation before, so let's not go through it again.


  • Options
    #94
    The Mighty Ken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 586 ✭✭✭The Mighty Ken


    dublindude wrote: »
    I don't mind your opinions on my sites (everyone has different opinions on every site - that's cool) but your statement that countries in Asia and Eastern Europe can't produce quality is really unfair.

    As someone who knows a lot about Web design and development and has been doing it since the industry was born, I can tell you it's as fair as it gets. The quality of a lot (not all) but a lot of the work that's being outsourced is poor. It's my professional opinion.
    dublindude wrote: »
    Can you clear this up once and for all -

    Why are Asians and Eastern Europeans so bad at design work and programming? Is it because...

    It's because the quality of the work that I see is poor. No other reason.
    dublindude wrote: »
    I find your anti-Asian and anti-Eastern European comments to be borderline racist.

    You're obviously lacking even a very basic level of intelligence then.
    dublindude wrote: »
    You cannot make such sweeping generalisations about entire groups of people.

    I'm merely speaking from experience. That's hardly making sweeping generalisations.
    dublindude wrote: »
    Please, explain why they cannot produce quality work.

    I'm not saying people in Asia or Eastern Europe can't. I'm simply saying that I haven't seen any. Am I still a racist? :rolleyes:
    dublindude wrote: »
    If you mean to say "I have heard of some people who were unhappy with the website they outsourced", that's fine, but you could apply the same anecdotal evidence to Irish designers.

    Definitely. However, I've never met anyone happy with a job they've outsourced apart from yourself. In my opinion, the quality of your sites is poor and I stand by the assertion that it's likely that someone who doesn't know exactly what they're doing is going to get taken for a ride by outsourcing. I'm just sharing my opinion and experience.
    dublindude wrote: »
    PS If "The Mighty Ken" = Ken Stanley = Laslo, we've had this conversation before, so let's not go through it again.

    Eh? Chip on your shoulder about something?


  • Options
    #95
    aidan_walsh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,208 ✭✭✭✭aidan_walsh


    Try to remain civil, please.


  • Options
    #96
    The Mighty Ken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 586 ✭✭✭The Mighty Ken


    aidan_walsh wrote: »
    Try to remain civil, please.

    No problem. I've expressed my opinion and I think I'll leave it at that to be honest. :o


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #97
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    The Mighty Ken wrote: »
    The quality of a lot (not all) but a lot of the work that's being outsourced is poor. It's my professional opinion.

    You run an Irish design company. Your opinion is completely biased and its aim is to scare people away from outsourcing.

    I find it extremely laughable that you believe the only route to a decent website is through hiring an Irish designer.

    Ireland is an expensive country. That is why Irish designers are so expensive. It has NOTHING to do with quality. Anyone with any ounce of cop on can see that.

    Outsourcing websites like scriptlance.com, elance.com, rentacoder.com, and getacoder.com are extremely busy. There is a reason they are extremely busy: outsourcing works.

    The only reason to use an Irish designer is because they live in Ireland and are covered by the Irish legal system. It's easy to sue them if they screw you over. That's about it.


  • Options
    #98
    The Mighty Ken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 586 ✭✭✭The Mighty Ken


    dublindude wrote: »
    You run an Irish design company. Your opinion is completely biased and its aim is to scare people away from outsourcing.

    My opinion could certainly be construed as biased but I am actually telling the truth on a number of points.
    • I have spoken to a lot of people who have had bad experiences outsourcing Web work in recent years. As I said, you're the only one that I've spoken to that was happy with their experience.
    • I am being completely impartial, believe it or not, when I say that I have yet to see a decent commercial Web project outsourced. I'm quite sure there are plenty out there, I just haven't seen any. I've seen plenty of disasters.
    So, even though I may be 'biased', these are truths and facts. I'm not trying to pull the wool over anyones eyes. Please, don't insinuate that I'm lying anymore as that's not fair.
    dublindude wrote: »
    I find it extremely laughable that you believe the only route to a decent website is through hiring an Irish designer.

    Did I say that? If I were a client looking to commission a Web project, I'd probably look towards the UK, Sweden or maybe the US, depending on what I wanted. The majority of stuff coming out of Ireland is crap to be honest.
    dublindude wrote: »
    Ireland is an expensive country. That is why Irish designers are so expensive. It has NOTHING to do with quality.

    You're right and you're wrong. Irish designers are much more expensive than, say, designers in India. In many cases, the designer in India may be much more competent, and the more expensive Irish designer may be terrible.

    On the other hand, if you want very high-end design then, in my opinion, you can't find it in a lot of these cheaper countries. Believe me, I've tried! My designer costs an absolute fortune. I'm happy to pay it because I think he is head and shoulders above the rest of the crowd. And with all due respect, you can't comment on quality if you don't know the difference.
    dublindude wrote: »
    Anyone with any ounce of cop on can see that.

    Look - show me a country in India that can produce the kind of quality of work that Happy Cog or Fantasy Interactive are producing for a fraction of the price, and I am forever in your debt!
    dublindude wrote: »
    Outsourcing websites like scriptlance.com, elance.com, rentacoder.com, and getacoder.com are extremely busy. There is a reason they are extremely busy: outsourcing works.

    That's your opinion. I'm entitled to disagree... and I do disagree.

    You seem to be getting very, very vexed here dublindude. I'm merely expressing an opinion so I'd appreciate it if you didn't start accusing me of bias and lies. A lot of people on this thread have asked for examples of professional quality sites produced abroad on the cheap, and we've still yet to see any. Screaming 'rip-off' and 'bias' at the top of ones lungs isn't proving any kind of point.


  • Options
    #99
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    I agree with you that it'd be a good idea to use a local company (or at least one which can be held accountable - so within the EU) if you need a really expensive, advanced website like ryanair.com.

    However no one here, including the OP, is talking about a website costing hundreds of thousands. He wants a 5 page brochure website. There is no reason why he can't outsource this.

    PS I am getting a bit vexed, and I apologise for this, but I think people are being very unfair by calling Asians/Eastern Europeans unskilled/incapable of doing quality work


  • Options
    #100
    The Mighty Ken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 586 ✭✭✭The Mighty Ken


    dublindude wrote: »
    There is no reason why he can't outsource this.

    You're absolutely right. He'll probably make his budget of €500 stretch a lot further if he outsources than if he tries to get it done in Ireland for the same price.

    All I'm saying is that there's a big difference between professional, high-end design/development and cheap-as-chips outsourced work. If there were incredible designers in India charging next to nothing for their brilliant work, I'd be using them. Like I said - let me know where I can find them, and I'm forever in your debt.

    Am I still a borderline racist?


  • Options
    #101
    The Mighty Ken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 586 ✭✭✭The Mighty Ken


    dublindude wrote: »
    PS I am getting a bit vexed, and I apologise for this, but I think people are being very unfair by calling Asians/Eastern Europeans unskilled/incapable of doing quality work

    Nobody is calling Asians/Easten Europeans unskilled. That's ridiculous and you know it is. We're having a grown-up discussion about the quality of the projects that are outsourced to various parts of the world. Leave the childish accusations of racism to the teeny boppers in the After Hours forum.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #102
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    Maybe you don't realise it, but when you say you cannot get quality work in Asia/Eastern Europe, that IS saying they're unskilled / incapable of doing quality work.

    Maybe you don't mean it that way, but I can only interpret what you type here.


  • Options
    #103
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    By the way, a lot of the companies who take jobs on scriptlance.com etc., are huge companies.

    A company I currently use (not for websites, but they do have a website department) has a few thousand employees. I've met a few of them, and they're very smart, educated individuals.


  • Options
    #104
    The Mighty Ken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 586 ✭✭✭The Mighty Ken


    dublindude wrote: »
    Maybe you don't realise it, but when you say you cannot get quality work in Asia/Eastern Europe, that IS saying they're unskilled / incapable of doing quality work.

    Look, your roundabout assertions here are completely baseless and silly.

    Firstly, I haven't come across anything that I would consider to be of decent professional standard coming out of, say, India. Not because I'm a rabid racist but because I just haven't. As I said, that's my impartial opinion as a professional of over a decade in this industry, not someone who feels even remotely threatened by outsourcing.

    Now please (and I won't ask this again) provide me with a few links to sites in India (or any other cheap country to outsource to) that are producing the same kind of work as Fantasy Interactive, Happy Cog, Poke, etc. and I will happily concede that you're right and offer you my most sincere apologies. If you can't do that, then your argument falls flat on its face. Don't worry, I don't expect an apology.

    Before accusing me of anything again, please PROVE your argument.


  • Options
    #105
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    Yeah, there are no skilled designers in Asia or Eastern Europe. I guess with there being only a few billion people living there, we should expect that.

    Listen to yourself.

    I do not believe for one second you would have such a strong opinion on this if you did not own your own design company.


  • Options
    #106
    The Mighty Ken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 586 ✭✭✭The Mighty Ken


    dublindude wrote: »
    Yeah, there are no skilled designers in Asia or Eastern Europe. I guess with there being only a few billion people living there, we should expect that.

    Listen to yourself.

    I do not believe for one second you would have such a strong opinion on this if you did not own your own design company.

    Look - I don't own my own design company. I work on the technical end and I outsource all of the design that my company does. I pay a premium for this for what, I believe, is top quality work. I haven't been able to find this in India and other, cheaper countries. I don't know if I need to write this in the sky in fireworks for you tonight but I'm not profiting from expensive designers in Ireland. They're profiting from me.

    Now, I will once again (and for the very last time this time) ask you to show me the URL of a company (or companies) in India, Albania or anywhere else that's cheap to outsource to who are providing world class design and development services at knockdown prices, comparable to the best agencies in, say, Europe or the US. All I'm asking for is proof. I'm not asking you to insinuate that I'm a devil-worshiping racist or to further besmirch my name. I'm just asking you to prove me wrong. Being a Web-based industry, that should be the easiest thing in the world for you to do. Unless, of course, you're wrong.

    One of the reasons that I have such strong opinions about this, is that I happen to know some well respected Irish agencies who outsource work to India and other, cheaper countries and charge Irish rates for it. But that's only one reason and it's a different thread entirely. Another reason is quality, I'm sorry to say.


  • Options
    #107
    The Mighty Ken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 586 ✭✭✭The Mighty Ken


    Anyway, stupid argument that's getting stupider.

    This makes for interesting reading, whether you agree with the OP's point or not: http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=523429


  • Options
    #108
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    If an Irish person looking for a website provides the web design company in the Ukraine or wherever with a sample of the websites he wants his site to look like, or with sketches of what he wants, that's what he'll get.

    If he gets something else, that's his problem if he accepts it.

    This is the same whether the designer is Irish or Indian.
    The Mighty Ken wrote:
    show me the URL of a company (or companies) in India, Albania or anywhere else that's cheap to outsource to who are providing world class design and development services at knockdown prices

    World class design at a knockdown price? The vast majority of companies don't need world class design. They need a nice, functional website. They can get that for $200 (India) or €1500 (Ireland).

    Obviously I don't expect anyone to get a world class design for $200 (India) or €1500 (Ireland).

    I'm talking about normal websites.

    Regarding your challenge, we both know there is no way I can tell if a lovely website was made by developers in Ireland or Albania. (Websites don't have a "Made in Ireland" stamp).


  • Options
    #109
    The Mighty Ken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 586 ✭✭✭The Mighty Ken


    dublindude wrote: »
    Regarding your challenge, we both know there is no way I can tell if a lovely website was made by developers in Ireland or Albania. (Websites don't have a "Made in Ireland" stamp).

    I asked you to show me the URL of a Web company in India, Albania or anywhere else cheap that's producing high quality Web work in order to prove your previous assertions.

    Anyway, I don't really care anymore.


  • Options
    #110
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    The Mighty Ken wrote: »
    I asked you to show me the URL of a Web company in India, Albania or anywhere else cheap that's producing high quality Web work in order to prove your previous assertions.

    Anyway, I don't really care anymore.

    i dont think i've seen any work by the best developer in ireland, can we see some of his work?


  • Options
    #111
    The Mighty Ken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 586 ✭✭✭The Mighty Ken


    ntlbell wrote: »
    i dont think i've seen any work by the best developer in ireland, can we see some of his work?

    Who's the best developer in Ireland??? Don't know what you're on about.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #112
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    The Mighty Ken wrote: »
    Who's the best developer in Ireland??? Don't know what you're on about.

    I thought you said you hired him?


  • Options
    #113
    The Mighty Ken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 586 ✭✭✭The Mighty Ken


    ntlbell wrote: »
    I thought you said you hired him?

    Read the thread again, will you. :rolleyes:


  • Options
    #114
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    The Mighty Ken wrote: »
    On the other hand, if you want very high-end design then, in my opinion, you can't find it in a lot of these cheaper countries. Believe me, I've tried! My designer costs an absolute fortune. I'm happy to pay it because I think he is head and shoulders above the rest of the crowd. And with all due respect, you can't comment on quality if you don't know the difference.

    Crowd = ?


  • Options
    #115
    The Mighty Ken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 586 ✭✭✭The Mighty Ken


    ntlbell wrote: »
    the best developer
    My designer

    I'm a developer myself, I outsource design work. Your confused heckling doesn't even dignify a response. Besides, I hardly think it would be prudent or professional to post up someone else's work (or that of their clients) for public critique in an open forum.

    I think we've brought this thread to a close as it seems to be getting petty and personal with no resolution. I stand by my assertions. PM me if you can prove otherwise.


  • Options
    #116
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    The Mighty Ken wrote: »
    I'm a developer myself, I outsource design work. Your confused heckling doesn't even dignify a response. Besides, I hardly think it would be prudent or professional to post up someone else's work (or that of their clients) for public critique in an open forum.

    Heckling? I've asked you a question I didn't insult you.

    I don't understand, your asking the exact same question of someone else?

    He's a web designer surley all his sites that can be accesed via a public network are constantly under critique from eyes all over the world and if he's as good as you say he is surley he would be happy with the publicity?

    :confused::confused:


  • Options
    #117
    The Mighty Ken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 586 ✭✭✭The Mighty Ken


    ntlbell wrote: »
    I don't understand, your asking the exact same question of someone else?

    Hardly, I'm asking for an example of a company (any company) based thousands of miles away that produces top class work at knock-down rates. dublindude seems to think they exist - I'd love to know who they are... mainly so I can outsource work to them!!!!! No joy so far though.
    ntlbell wrote: »
    He's a web designer surley all his sites that can be accesed via a public network are constantly under critique from eyes all over the world

    Yes, they can and they are. Posting his work up here strays from the point though. Can someone provide me with a link to a cheap company to oursource to that provides top class work? Please?


  • Options
    #118
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    The Mighty Ken wrote: »
    Can someone provide me with a link to a cheap company to oursource to that provides top class work? Please?

    I can and will if you show me some of your designers work.

    Win win for everyone.


  • Options
    #119
    The Mighty Ken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 586 ✭✭✭The Mighty Ken


    ntlbell wrote: »
    I can and will if you show me some of your designers work.

    Win win for everyone.

    Not really. I expressed an opinion that someone is head and shoulders above the rest. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. I've been told as fact that there are quality Web agencies in far lands that are cheap to outsource to and I want to know who they are. Big difference. I'm asking dublindude to prove his point. I don't have to prove my opinion. Why not prove dublindude's argument for him?


  • Options
    #120
    ntlbell
    Registered Users Posts: 16,288 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    The Mighty Ken wrote: »
    Not really. I expressed an opinion that someone is head and shoulders above the rest. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. I've been told as fact that there are quality Web agencies in far lands that are cheap to outsource to and I want to know who they are. Big difference. I'm asking dublindude to prove his point. I don't have to prove my opinion. Why not prove dublindude's argument for him?


    You want dublindude to provide a link to prove his point.

    I want you to prove you're getting top class design done costing you a fortune.

    I'll show you some top quality deisign done at a "knock down" price....we'll see if it's better than your top class deisign and if it is yo save a lot of money dublindude proves his point and everyones happy

    if not your right and dublindude is wrong and (ghey)

    hows that?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #121
    The Mighty Ken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 586 ✭✭✭The Mighty Ken


    ntlbell wrote: »
    You want dublindude to provide a link to prove his point.

    No, I actually want him to prove his point which will provide me with a good contact for top quality, cheap Web design services. There's a method to my madness. I'm just hoping he can do me a favour more than anything else.
    ntlbell wrote: »
    I want you to prove you're getting top class design done costing you a fortune.

    Why? What good is that to you exactly?
    ntlbell wrote: »
    I'll show you some top quality deisign done at a "knock down" price....we'll see if it's better than your top class deisign and if it is yo save a lot of money dublindude proves his point and everyones happy

    As the potential client/person who's looking to outsource, I'll be the judge. PM me if you don't want to post the link publicly.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement