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Is leinster v Munster rivalry healthy for Irish rugby?
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17-04-2008 12:04pm#1
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i reckon the rivalry is a good thing...shows pride and support for you team...which the players feel on the pitch only a good thing i suppose. you just dont want it descending into farce and being a biggot for the sake of it. I wouldnt begrudge munster a HC as long as they earned it
....if you want real rivalry you have to turn to soccer and AC Milan with Inter Milan or some fo those argentinian clubs are mad b@stards0 -
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Ah to be fair the rivalrey is harmless. It's only that it is so close to home that there are bragging rights at stake. I think every Leinster supporter has a few Munster mates (as a lot live and work in Dublin) and I'm sure a lot of Munster men have Leinster mates (although I'm sure there's a lot less of us down their neck of the woods), but there's a lot of history between the sides, ranging from obviously countless inter-pro games, to the professional era with the first real head to head outside of inter-pro competition in the ML play-off final to the games in the League each year, then of course that famous day in 2006 in Lansdowne road, of course there's going to be a rivalrey there.
In fairness, on the form, not just domestic form, but over the last year or 2, I'd rate Leinster better than at least 5 of the quarter-final HC teams this year, which means we've got 2 of the best domestic teams and 2 of the best teams in Europe and 2 next door neighbours playing eachother at least twice a year and both winning silverware, I think it's great and long may it continue.
At the end of the day, the differnce between a Football supporter and a Rugby supporter is that Footbal fans riot and fight eachother, Rugby fans have banter and rival fans always enjoy a beer together after the game in the local pubs.
As for supporting Munster, I would support Munster ahead of anyone else this year in the HC for the simple reason that I cheer half these guys on every year in the Irish games, and they're an Irish team, so of course I want to seem them do well. After all, they're the second best team in Ireland!
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As a Munster supporter I just wish that Leinster would win the HCup - then everyone would be on an equal pegging again. Since 'Black Sunday';) I think there is a sort of soccer type feel to the rivalry - something which I never noticed until then and mainly coming from younger people in the 18-25 age group - I've watched Munster HCup games in Dublin pubs where Munster's opposition was being cheered on by lads wearing Leinster jerseys. It was so bad on one occasion that an older bloke wearing a Blackrock Jersey went over and told them to shut up. No doubt Leinster supporters have come across the same type of situation with Munster supporters.
That said, I was in a well known Dublin rugby pub when Munster played Wasps recently and the roof nearly came off it with the cheers when Dayglo got sent off.
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At the end of the day, the differnce between a Football supporter and a Rugby supporter is that Footbal fans riot and fight eachother, Rugby fans have banter and rival fans always enjoy a beer together after the game in the local pubs.
I'm sorry but again i have to disagree with that statement. I would guess 99% of football fans are well behaved. It's the other 1% who are generally delinquents (be they working class or middle class) who engage in the acts that you describe. I have gone and drank in opposing fans pubs many a time without rioting and fighting.
I would agree that football has an unwanted element that attach themselves to clubs, they are not considered true fans of the game.0 -
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Tim Robbins wrote: »The one I really hate is the stereotype that it's working man versus rich man. I mean Munster fans are hardly nackers. There's a few Limerick heads who wouldn't be too familiar with the big words but the majority are hardly nackers and the majority of their team come from fee paying rugby schools - eh hardly working class, whatever that is in one of the richest economies in the world.
Seriously, may I continue to rant, if Munster fans were really struggling to pay the bills, where do they get all their money to go to Heineken cup games? from Santa?
Yes, don't you just hate it when negative stereotypes get bandied about.
The rivalry is a good thing overall i feel. Munster v Leinster does have a sense of occasion about it, and draws in the numbers more so than any other game, certainly in the ML.
I can't see it develop to the point of each sets of fans throwing petrol bombs at each other just yet, but who knows with all us limerick skangers about. :rolleyes:0 -
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thehighground wrote: »As a Munster supporter I just wish that Leinster would win the HCup - then everyone would be on an equal pegging again. Since 'Black Sunday';) I think there is a sort of soccer type feel to the rivalry - something which I never noticed until then and mainly coming from younger people in the 18-25 age group - I've watched Munster HCup games in Dublin pubs where Munster's opposition was being cheered on by lads wearing Leinster jerseys. It was so bad on one occasion that an older bloke wearing a Blackrock Jersey went over and told them to shut up. No doubt Leinster supporters have come across the same type of situation with Munster supporters.
That said, I was in a well known Dublin rugby pub when Munster played Wasps recently and the roof nearly came off it with the cheers when Dayglo got sent off.
I was in a rathfarnham pub when Munster won the HC. The whole pub cheered them on like it was the Irish team playing. Really good aethmosphere... as good as any match I've watched.0 -
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Plenty of Leinster players would have gone to the better rugby schools on the back of sports scholarships - you can hardly say the likes of Horgan were "born into it". The myth of Munster being working class is just that - a myth. The make-up of the squads with regards to their background is quite similar. Mind you, none of that actually matters to me.
As regards support - Leinster get a larger base support then Munster and it covers many sections of society (hell, I'm a Leinster supporter from D5 and I've brought many a friend from the area to games and they've loved it). Ultimately, the provinces are fairly similar with regards support etc.
I'd agree with you - I wouldn't exactly think that all Leinster players or supporters were actually born with a silver spoon in their mouths... but Tim Robbins posted that just because the Munster players went to private schools they must come from wealthy backgrounds.Tim Robbins: The one I really hate is the stereotype that it's working man versus rich man. I mean Munster fans are hardly nackers. There's a few Limerick heads who wouldn't be too familiar with the big words but the majority are hardly nackers and the majority of their team come from fee paying rugby schools - eh hardly working class, whatever that is in one of the richest economies in the world. Seriously, may I continue to rant, if Munster fans were really struggling to pay the bills, where do they get all their money to go to Heineken cup games? from Santa?
I just wonder is it Tim Robbins himself who has created the stereotype - Munster GAA would have largely the same support as Munster rugby - no one goes on about Munster GAA as working class heroes, do they? More just ordinary culchies maybe
Last year, I watched Leinster's Magner's title League decider in a bar in the heartland of Leinster rugby (2 of the Leinster players would have gone to two schools within half a mile of the pub (Girv & Hickie). Most of the people in there would have been tradesmen. One telly was devoted to the rugby, while the other 3 tvs had Sunderland v. Barnsley (I think), a Coca-Cola championship game. Most people were watching the soccer. That would not be the case in a Limerick bar if Munster were playing, particuarly a game where they might have won the Magner's League.
Leinster have got this middle class label - Munster didn't give it to Leinster - so it would be nice if you stopped blaming Munster for that!0 -
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Tim Robbins wrote: »DOC went to a private school in Cork and then third level in CIT. It's a typical example of the silly myth that Munster are something even close to a working class team.
Sure he went to a private school (could have been a scholarship for all you know). Most people nowadays go onto 3rd level education. Ireland is now a prosperious country. Most of DOC's father's generation probably left school at 14. In Dublin you will find that rugby was played by the professional classes only. Have you read Trevor Brennan's book? By the way, isn't one of Peter Stringer's nickname 'Posh Peanut'. Seems strange to be singled out for being 'posh' in a posh squad don't you think?Munster gets great support for some of the HC game and then they disappear for the ML. The GAA fans join the gang for the big HC games that's it.
Well, I'm sure some Munster supporters might be like me - live in Dublin and find it a bit hard to get to Cork on a Friday night for 7.30. However, I suppose by going to Leinster Magner's games, we are supporting the Magner's League - just we get credited as being Leinster support By the way, Musgrave bar the first few games when the world cup was on, has been a sell-out this year! If Munster want to fill the new Thomond, they better not have any games at 7.30pm on a Friday night.Something similar happened in Jack Charlton era. Everyone all of a sudden wanted to go and see Ireland play and sing Ole Ole Ole. But nothing really changed in the League of Ireland, attendances were still low. People like to be associated with success and its no different with Munster fans, it's the human condition.
I think we support differently here - for myself, brought up on the tribal parish, county, province country system., I find it hard to go off and support a team that I have no tribal connection with, so that is why I wouldn't be to interested in the League of Ireland. I'd be on for entertainment at this stage - so I prefer to watch Arsensal than Bohs!That's what it is, not some magical affinity life long affinity with the fans. If that was the case, you'd have a few more going the ML and less glamourous ties. Argentinian fans turn up and shouted like crazy for tests last year that was effectively Ireland A versus Argentina A, it was great to see. I think we could all (leinster and munster fans) look out and learn something from others.
Well, the parish I'm from has a population of about 1,200, it has a great GAA club and on a Saturday evening, you will find about 4-500 (nearly half the parish, shouting on their team that hasn't won anything in a long time). Get off your soap box please.As for Dublin fans, well hill 16 would make any Limerick fan look posh. This really is all so stupid. I am beginning to think David McWilliams will start reading these threads and put us all into silly little boxes.
So you are turning up your nose at Dublin fans! Very telling. 0 -
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Oh don't give me that. If it was ML there it wouldn't even make one tv in Munster because it's not a serious competitionthehighground wrote: »
Last year, I watched Leinster's Magner's title League decider in a bar in the heartland of Leinster rugby (2 of the Leinster players would have gone to two schools within half a mile of the pub (Girv & Hickie). Most of the people in there would have been tradesmen. One telly was devoted to the rugby, while the other 3 tvs had Sunderland v. Barnsley (I think), a Coca-Cola championship game. Most people were watching the soccer. That would not be the case in a Limerick bar if Munster were playing, particuarly a game where they might have won the Magner's League. 0 -
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Exactly, we're all roughly the same. There is more difference between Ballymun and Foxrock then there is between Leinster and Munster. It really is stupid to think there's a major difference between Munster and Leinster, it's like arguing there's a major difference between Dalkey and Howth. There isn't.thehighground wrote: »Sure he went to a private school (could have been a scholarship for all you know). Most people nowadays go onto 3rd level education. Ireland is now a prosperious country.
Oh come on now. First it's DOC then you have to move onto is Dad, then I could pick a Leinster player who's Dad was the same, it's just absolute nonsense.Most of DOC's father's generation probably left school at 14. In Dublin you will find that rugby was played by the professional classes only. Have you read Trevor Brennan's book? By the way, isn't one of Peter Stringer's nickname 'Posh Peanut'. Seems strange to be singled out for being 'posh' in a posh squad don't you think?
Nonsense, you give it all this growing up on the parish and then tell us you support Arsensal. You're irrational.I think we support differently here - for myself, brought up on the tribal parish, county, province country system., I find it hard to go off and support a team that I have no tribal connection with, so that is why I wouldn't be to interested in the League of Ireland. I'd be on for entertainment at this stage - so I prefer to watch Arsensal than Bohs!
Yes some of the ones on the hill I definetly would. They are racist biggots and yes the make the toughest Limerick fan look posh. Go to a few games on Hill 16, stand in the middle and you'll see what I mean.So you are turning up your nose at Dublin fans! Very telling.
Basically since the Irish economy has taken off the underclass are all immigrants. Unfortunately that's the way it is. There the ones on the minimum paids jobs, they're the ones with the lowest property ownership, they're the ones who can't vote in General elections, they're the ones with little to no political representation, they're the ones who children cannot be guarenteed citizenship, they're the ones who kids can't get into many of our schools. Working class Munster fans pondering their way around Europe on big weekends, flashing the yoyo's. The hard *ss working men - me b*llox.0 -
thehighground wrote: »Well, I'm sure some Munster supporters might be like me - live in Dublin and find it a bit hard to get to Cork on a Friday night for 7.30. However, I suppose by going to Leinster Magner's games, we are supporting the Magner's League - just we get credited as being Leinster support By the way, Musgrave bar the first few games when the world cup was on, has been a sell-out this year! If Munster want to fill the new Thomond, they better not have any games at 7.30pm on a Friday night.
Ah now I don't think Munster fans can take any credit for Leinster support this year, haha, not surprised you'd try though!!
As for Musgrave, afaik, it's only been sold out twice all year, Vs Leinster and Vs. Edinburgh (?? for some strange reason), but the average attendance for Munster games in Musgrave is close to capacity, about 7,000 where as the capacity is 8,500.
But it is in Cork and I'd say it's not easy to get from Limerick to Cork on a Friday night in rush hour. But what about the non-Limerick support? Is there no fan base in Cork?
This season, with the exception of Leicster (17,000), Leinster has been the best supported rugby team in the UK & Ireland, tied with Gloucster with an average attendance of 14,500 for home domestic league matches. Should be hopefully in the region of 15,000 after the Dragons game.
Couldn't find figures for top 14, but I'd imagine Leinster is in the top 5 best supported clubs in Europe in their respective domestic leagues.0 -
Tim Robbins wrote: »Oh don't give me that. If it was ML there it wouldn't even make one tv in Munster because it's not a serious competition
You could be right if there was nothing to play for .... but if it was the ML winner decider, I'm sure Munster fans would work up a bit of enthusiasm :rolleyes:0 -
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Tim Robbins wrote: »Exactly, we're all roughly the same. There is more difference between Ballymun and Foxrock then there is between Leinster and Munster. It really is stupid to think there's a major difference between Munster and Leinster, it's like arguing there's a major difference between Dalkey and Howth. There isn't.
Your dead right about a major difference between Munster & Leinster. Outside of Dublin, the Leinster supporters would have a lot in common with the Munster supporters
Oh come on now. First it's DOC then you have to move onto is Dad, then I could pick a Leinster player who's Dad was the same, it's just absolute nonsense.
So, give me a Keith Earls equivalent - from Moyross and Dad played for Munster? Any Leinster players from Ballymun whose Dad played for Leinster?Nonsense, you give it all this growing up on the parish and then tell us you support Arsensal. You're irrational.
Sorry for misleading you there - I don't support Arsenal actually - just like to watch them play. Entertainment value. I'd be more of a follower (not supporter, mind) of Man Utd.Yes some of the ones on the hill I definetly would. They are racist biggots and yes the make the toughest Limerick fan look posh. Go to a few games on Hill 16, stand in the middle and you'll see what I mean.
I always find the Dublin fans hugely entertaining. Love when Dublin gets beaten thoughBasically since the Irish economy has taken off the underclass are all immigrants. Unfortunately that's the way it is. There the ones on the minimum paids jobs, they're the ones with the lowest property ownership, they're the ones who can't vote in General elections, they're the ones with little to no political representation, they're the ones who children cannot be guarenteed citizenship, they're the ones who kids can't get into many of our schools. Working class Munster fans pondering their way around Europe on big weekends, flashing the yoyo's. The hard *ss working men - me b*llox.
Who claimed that the Munster support was all working class? Thats rubbish. The thing about Munster Rugby is that its all classes!0 -
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Ah now I don't think Munster fans can take any credit for Leinster support this year, haha, not surprised you'd try though!!
Well, out of a group of about 8 of us who go on a regular basis to Leinster matches, 5 are Leinster supporters and 3 are from Munster. We don't wear any Munster colours to the games btw.:)As for Musgrave, afaik, it's only been sold out twice all year, Vs Leinster and Vs. Edinburgh (?? for some strange reason), but the average attendance for Munster games in Musgrave is close to capacity, about 7,000 where as the capacity is 8,500.
But it is in Cork and I'd say it's not easy to get from Limerick to Cork on a Friday night in rush hour. But what about the non-Limerick support? Is there no fan base in Cork?
Well, I suppose like Dublin, there are a lot of things going on on a Friday night in Cork - dogs, soccer, etc. Might improve when the facilities are upgraded, just like moving to the RDS helped Leinster. And of course Cork is much smaller than DublinThis season, with the exception of Leicster (17,000), Leinster has been the best supported rugby team in the UK & Ireland, tied with Gloucster with an average attendance of 14,500 for home domestic league matches. Should be hopefully in the region of 15,000 after the Dragons game.
Couldn't find figures for top 14, but I'd imagine Leinster is in the top 5 best supported clubs in Europe in their respective domestic leagues.
Just wonder, how many would you get if Leinster played home games in Kilkenny on a Friday night or even on a Saturday afternoon?0 -
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Yes some of them are good craic, the racism and biggotry ain't on though.thehighground wrote: »I always find the Dublin fans hugely entertaining. Love when Dublin gets beaten though
The media claim there is the working class / middle class dichotomy, which is just lazy stupid journalism.Who claimed that the Munster support was all working class? Thats rubbish. The thing about Munster Rugby is that its all classes!
Leinster Rugby has a major bend to the middle classes, Munster rugby also has a bend but not to the same degree.
A disportionate of both teams come from private schools, Leinster's it's about 90%, Munster it's probably about 60%. In both cases it's well about the national average of people from private schools which is about 10%.
In both Leinster and Munster, Soccer has a way higher representation of the lower socio-economic background, but as I was saying this is all nonsense talk as Irish people are relatively quite rich, it's the immigrants who form the underclasses and the people who are getting marginalised, economically and politically.
Now go get yourself a beer and enjoy your weekend.0 -
Tim Robbins wrote: »Are you the type of bloke who spews of opinions without checking the facts?
DOC, ML, Only like parish teams but support Arsenal, I am seeing a pattern...
Enjoy your weekend!
Just because you think/write it, doesn't mean its true.
I just recounted my experience of being in the bar of a pub in Terenure (which would be a rugby part of Dublin), where most people in there preferred to watch soccer than Leinster playing rugby. I'm not a Leinster supporter as such, so I don't need to know every score, watch every game etc. etc.
As I've clarified for you, I don't support Arsenal, but I think its harmless enough to prefer to watch them rather than a local team like Bohs. A little bit like some Leinster supporters would claim that it hurts their eyes to watch Munster play - they expect to be entertained
You really like to generalise, don't you?0 -
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