Bio-Ethanol Conversion

ninty9er

So I finally did it after all the humming and hawning. Not the most technically minded, so I got a proper job done on it in a local garage. Was €570 all in.

So why some of you may ask (I know some of you aren't asking) did I do this?

The other week I passed a garage with prices up that looked like last January's $US exchange rate and had been thinking about this for a while anyway.

The promotional material was shiny:pac::pac: (I can send the pdf for anyone interested) and the price on that quoting last May's bio-ethanol price is the price I paid lastnight when I topped up the tank.

95.9c...still a bit steep considering there's consumption going to be lost on it, but I reckon it'll probably pay off in 18 months to 2 years.

There's a bit of a performance bonus included too, which can't hurt. And I get the green glow of environmentalism.... I know I know there are envirocons to it too, but overall it's probably better for the environment.

Now the cons...it'll take a while to turnover with 3/4 of a tank of petrol in it as the combustion ratios are different, bit it will still run perfectly with petrol only, so I'm not gonna get stranded in Bally-go-wegotsno-biofuel.

JHMEG

Would be interested in seeing the pdf alright. Why don't you attach it to a post, I reckon there'd be a lot of other ppl interested too.

Have you access to E85 over there? Thought it was only available in a couple of Maxols in Dublin.

ninty9er

Attached.

Also a list of Maxol stations providing E85.

rosboy

I'd definitely be interested in seeing the PDF too.

Did you say there was a performance increase in the car?

Edit: Sorry, you posted the pdf while i was senting my post. Thanks.

JHMEG

Very good, thanks for that.

I was looking at buying in a Full Flex Gold kit from the US and fitting it myself a while back. I'll ask you again in a while how you're getting on.

Do you notice much of a difference on E85 performance wise?

E92

This article is rather defensive of bio ethanol.

One of the more interesting things they say for the bio ethanol doubters is "Second-generation biofuels are being made from waste green matter, such as the by-products of the food processing and timber industries. Volkswagen, for example, has a shareholding in Iogen, a Canadian biotechnology company that
is developing a process that uses enzymes to turn timber waste and fast-growing grasses into ethanol."

If we could get bio ethanol to work, we would practically have solved the emissions problem overnight from cars.

And bio ethanol works of course in suitably adapted petrol engines too:)!

colly10

What parts did they replace, did they do the fuel tank and fuel lines, injectors?
What else?

ninty9er

I only had it done yesterday, so the performance difference will tell when all the unleaded is out of the system. I'm going to Dundalk tomorrow, so the return trip should tell as there are apparently 2 E85 pumps there.

Actually now that I look at the pdf....prices have come down to 95.9c. that's 75.5p....from my vague recollection of petrol prices it was around 1996?? the last time we saw those type of figures:eek::eek:

ninty9er

colly10 wrote: »

What parts did they replace, did they do the fuel tank and fuel lines, injectors?
What else?

They just do a mod on the cylinders and put an engine management unit in AFAIK. no new tank or lines or mechanical parts required.

JHMEG

colly10 wrote: »

What parts did they replace, did they do the fuel tank and fuel lines, injectors?
What else?

It's a unit that is wired inline with the injectors. A requirement for running on ethanol is that the injectors stay open for longer to all more fuel in.

Guy:Incognito

In the pdf it says that it is recommended to have 10% of th etank of unleaded. Is there any damage that could be doen running on 100% E85 all the time?

JHMEG

Stekelly wrote: »

In the pdf it says that it is recommended to have 10% of th etank of unleaded. Is there any damage that could be doen running on 100% E85 all the time?

That's kinda curious as E85 is 15% unleaded, so they're suggesting 25% unleaded. There can be a gunk build up in the fuel tank (esp in older cars) that E85 will "loosen" quite quickly.

http://www.fullflexint.com/pages/tips.htm wrote:

If you think you are a likely candidate for this issue, we recommend using your first few tanks and then changing the fuel filter as a preventative maintenance item rather than experiencing a problem when you are in a remote area.

colly10

JHMEG wrote: »

It's a unit that is wired inline with the injectors. A requirement for running on ethanol is that the injectors stay open for longer to all more fuel in.

But say if I put the boot to the floor, even if it is leaving them open longer it's still not going to be able to get the required amount of fuel in on time causing the car to run lean for a short period which will cause detonation.
Maybe thats not the case on all cars but thats the impression I got. €570 is cheap but are you getting a cheap job.
I've definitely read of bioethanol eating fuel lines/tanks before.

Matt Simis

Ive had my finger on the button to buy the Full Flex kit on eBay and install it myself. The only thing holding me back is the possible 25% hit to MPG. E85 at 0.95c a litre multiplied by 1.25 is about EUR1.18 which means it works out the same as regular petrol. Thats not including the advised 10% per tank of vanilla unleaded you are recommended to have in there too.

With a high compression engine (turbos etc) you could get a custom ECU remap to take advantage of the 100+ Octane you would be running, but this is again increased cost. Hmmm...

Good link with info: http://e85vehicles.com/e85/

JHMEG

colly10 wrote: »

But say if I put the boot to the floor, even if it is leaving them open longer it's still not going to be able to get the required

Injectors stay open for a fixed period anyway. With ethanol it's a bit longer than petrol, but nonetheless it's a fixed period. When you put the foot to the floor more air is let in allowing the engine to spin faster and the injectors to inject fuel more frequently.

colly10

JHMEG wrote: »

Injectors stay open for a fixed period anyway. With ethanol it's a bit longer than petrol, but nonetheless it's a fixed period. When you put the foot to the floor more air is let in allowing the engine to spin faster and the injectors to inject fuel more frequently.

It lets more air in and fuel to match ye? Say if you were previously seeing injector duty of 85% when you put the foot down and now since you changed to E85 you need to consume 25% more to get the AFR correct, then now even if the injector duty was 100% you would still not be getting enough fuel into the engine (as you'd need around 106%) so you would be running lean (unless you get bigger injectors)

Or have I totally got the wrong idea?

ninty9er

JHMEG wrote: »

That's kinda curious as E85 is 15% unleaded, so they're suggesting 25% unleaded. There can be a gunk build up in the fuel tank (esp in older cars) that E85 will "loosen" quite quickly.

While it's an E85 leaflet, it's a bio-ethanol conversion so E100 I assume, meaning the petrol is already taken care of. There ain't too many miles on my car but it was idle for a good while (18 months +) so I'll probably change the filter after 1500 miles or so.

JHMEG

colly10 wrote: »

It lets more air in and fuel to match ye?

Putting your foot to the floor does not increase injector duty. The Full Flex yoke does increase injector duty by a small amount when on ethanol, but I'm not sure how much. It doesn't seem to be a problem in typical engines... maybe at say 12,000rpm it would tho.

colly10

JHMEG wrote: »

Putting your foot to the floor does not increase injector duty. The Full Flex yoke does increase injector duty by a small amount when on ethanol, but I'm not sure how much. It doesn't seem to be a problem in typical engines... maybe at say 12,000rpm it would tho.

If you need 25% more fuel (when running E85) then I assume that the duty would need to be 25% more than it would be on petrol. If the duty before hit 85% when using standard petrol then your standard injectors would not be up to the job?

Sorry bout the questions, not arguing, just like learning bout this stuff, trying to get the head around it

JHMEG

ninty9er wrote: »

While it's an E85 leaflet, it's a bio-ethanol conversion so E100 I assume, meaning the petrol is already taken care of. There ain't too many miles on my car but it was idle for a good while (18 months +) so I'll probably change the filter after 1500 miles or so.

I think it's nearly taken for granted these days that "bioethanol" = E85. The only reason we don't have E100 is that it can be consumed and is quite cheap relatively speaking. Eg 8 litres of Coke and E100 = ~ €9 (and what a party!). Compare that to €11 euro in DUTY alone on a bottle of Whisky (VAT is extra) (someone has to pay for all that children's allowance:D).

Not a bad idea tho to change the fuel filter. It's a fairly simple job. Just open the filler cap first (relieves pressure in the tank from gasses and you don't get fuel p1ssing everywhere). A flick of the wrist undoes the banjo bolts on the filter.

Steve

ninty9er wrote: »

They just do a mod on the cylinders and put an engine management unit in AFAIK. no new tank or lines or mechanical parts required.

I thought the issue with bio-ethanol was that it corroded gaskets and seals in the fuel system

Were these replaced or was what I heard bullshit?

JHMEG

colly10 wrote: »

If you need 25% more fuel (when running E85) then I assume that the duty would need to be 25% more than it would be on petrol.

Have you stoichiometric mixes into account?

ninty9er

stevec wrote: »

I thought the issue with bio-ethanol was that it corroded gaskets and seals in the fuel system

Were these replaced or was what I heard bullshit?

I believe this was an issue with older cars alright.

Henry Ford III

What about the valve seats? Ithought these needed to be hardened to run long term on E85?

ninty9er

Henry Ford III wrote: »

What about the valve seats? Ithought these needed to be hardened to run long term on E85?

Unsure on that one....must check.

JHMEG

Henry Ford III wrote: »

What about the valve seats? Ithought these needed to be hardened to run long term on E85?

From what I've read, that seems to be one of the myths about an E85 conversion. I think you're more likely (tho not very) to have your fuel lines eaten.

Steve

ninty9er wrote: »

I believe this was an issue with older cars alright.

Hope it goes better for you than when Clarkson tried it for the silverstone 24hr race and it dissolved the fuel pump:D

JHMEG

stevec wrote: »

Hope it goes better for you than when Clarkson tried it for the silverstone 24hr race and it dissolved the fuel pump:D

Diesel pump, not fuel pump. They ran bio diesel. Nothing remotely close to bioethanol.

Steve

JHMEG wrote: »

Diesel pump, not fuel pump. They ran bio diesel. Nothing remotely close to bioethanol.

Ah, didn't cop that

/feels silly:o

ninty9er

I'm liking the optimistic attitude round here. My parents told me I was wasting my money (which btw I should have mentioned was another reason I got it done....the nice lads at Revenue repaid the loan I overpaid them last year:D:D:D).

All my mam's workmates told her it was a waste of money and one is a taxi driver so he must be right:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

It'll ruin my car apparently. We'll see who's laughing out the other side of their arse when the dollar hits 2 for one and oil skyrockets:p:p

JHMEG

ninty9er wrote: »

It'll ruin my car apparently.

And you deserve nothing less, ya feckin Fianna Failer.

But on a more serious note, if it all goes well for you, which I hope it does, I'll probably do the same conversion. (Gareth Fitzgerald rocks)

ninty9er

JHMEG wrote: »

And you deserve nothing less, ya feckin Fianna Failer.

But on a more serious note, if it all goes well for you, which I hope it does, I'll probably do the same conversion. (Gareth Fitzgerald rocks)

I believe it's Garrett....and so he does. That's an old breed unlike some others....but I'll stop before Gandalf comes in and I get banned again:D:D

Ferris

Anyone know if you can claim a VRT rebate on a car modified to use Biofuel.

More specifically can you claim it on an imported car that has been modified to run bio-ethanol. Im thinking of importing a large petrol engined car from the UK and if I fit the bio-ethanol kit will I only have to pay half of the VRT due?

Matt Simis

Ferris wrote: »

Anyone know if you can claim a VRT rebate on a car modified to use Biofuel.

More specifically can you claim it on an imported car that has been modified to run bio-ethanol. Im thinking of importing a large petrol engined car from the UK and if I fit the bio-ethanol kit will I only have to pay half of the VRT due?

I checked this for both BioDiesel and BioEthanol.

They declined BioDiesel as it can be run in any diesel with no mods, so if they gave a discount there really would be no pressure to actually run on BD. There also is no nationwide availability.

They declined the BioEthanol rebate as the E85 conversion has to be performed at the factory level, aftermarket kits arent supported. Also the "rebate" is not actually a rebate, its built into the VRT price of certain preselected FFVs.

Henry Ford III

JHMEG wrote: »

From what I've read, that (valve seal hardening) seems to be one of the myths about an E85 conversion. I think you're more likely (tho not very) to have your fuel lines eaten.

From the Ford.ie site...

Technically, the Ford FFV differs
from a conventional car only
in that valves and other
components receive a special
coating and that its engine
management system optimises
performance according to what fuel
it is running on.

JHMEG

Henry Ford III wrote: »

From the Ford.ie site...

Technically, the Ford FFV differs
from a conventional car only
in that valves and other
components receive a special
coating and that its engine
management system optimises
performance according to what fuel
it is running on.

That may be the case alright, but that doesn't prove that E85 will do damage to a modern car. Most of the stuff I'm reading says that it'll actually clean your engine.

the drifter

what MPG change are you seeing if any?

JHMEG

Any update on this 99er? How is the car running? More or less power/mpg?

ninty9er wrote: »

I believe it's Garrett....and so he does. That's an old breed unlike some others...

How relevant! Garrett "twin turbo" Fitzgerald!

ninty9er

Bit more Motorway poke in 5th, MPG not massively different considering most of the driving I did on Friday was motorway at 4.5k RPM or Dublin city centre in stop-go-traffic.

There's a bit more power, but nothing that petrol couldn't achieve with a few hundred more revs.

Only other difference I have noticed is that the car is slower to start, but I can live with that. That and the fact that to fill the tank has dropped from €63 to €50:D:D:D

maidhc

I really like the idea of coverting my Capri to run on E85. I might even go to the Ford main dealer after and get one of those "flexifuel" logos for the back. I'm slightly giddy at the thought.

JHMEG

maidhc wrote: »

I really like the idea of coverting my Capri to run on E85. I might even go to the Ford main dealer after and get one of those "flexifuel" logos for the back. I'm slightly giddy at the thought.

maidhc, I don't think the Capri would survive it. Seriously. I think you'd have to get a modern car (well, 1990+). How about a petrol focus to replace the diesel?

maidhc

JHMEG wrote: »

maidhc, I don't think the Capri would survive it. Seriously. I think you'd have to get a modern car (well, 1990+). How about a petrol focus to replace the diesel?

The TDCI is staying! Banish the thought!

I could replace the Capri with a MB w123 300D... and burn what ever burns though, they run on household waste by all accounts

ninty9er

maidhc wrote: »

I might even go to the Ford main dealer after and get one of those "flexifuel" logos for the back. I'm slightly giddy at the thought.

:D:D:D

I'm after one of the Saab BioPower ones!!

JHMEG

maidhc wrote: »

I could replace the Capri with a MB w123 300D... and burn what ever burns though, they run on household waste by all accounts

I prefer dead cats myself!

Henry Ford III

JHMEG wrote: »

That may be the case alright, but that doesn't prove that E85 will do damage to a modern car. Most of the stuff I'm reading says that it'll actually clean your engine.

True, but no manufacturer would undertake any process that wasn't necessary surely?

alias no.9

Henry Ford III wrote: »

True, but no manufacturer would undertake any process that wasn't necessary surely?

You're assuming that there is a substantial difference between the flexifuel and the normal car. You could be talking about marginally different nominal process settings.
Fear, uncertainty and doubt, or FUD to use the correct marketing term, are used to differentiate products that are the same for all intents and purposes but the which the manufacturer/supplier wants customers to perceive as being different.
Ford get a substantial PR benefit from their flexifuel Focus, if it became apparent that the only difference was a software change in the ECU to allow it to adjust the fuel / air ratio and ignition timing, then the question arises why don't they enable every focus to be flexifuel? The answer of course is that then the cars would just be ordinary focii, not some super extra special green machines, they'd just blend into the background. Any 'Green' PR benefit is lost straight away. There would certainly not have been an opportunity to negotiate a VRT discount like Ford did on the introduction of the flexifuel focus, a further PR blow.

limklad

ninty9er wrote: »

Bit more Motorway poke in 5th, MPG not massively different considering most of the driving I did on Friday was motorway at 4.5k RPM or Dublin city centre in stop-go-traffic.

There's a bit more power, but nothing that petrol couldn't achieve with a few hundred more revs.

Only other difference I have noticed is that the car is slower to start, but I can live with that. That and the fact that to fill the tank has dropped from €63 to €50:D:D:D

I am interested in getting my car changed too.



How are you getting on with the flex-Fuel? Any problems with it?


I wonder can you get some road tax reductions because you change fuel types?
and What did the Insurance company say about the conversion?

ninty9er

IT's still running fine, but will need to go for a second adjustment regarding the starter.

As the power is negligible, it's an engine conversion rather than modification (though I take your point) and I couldn't be arsed spending an hour trying to explain it to some imbecile at Hibernian
. Basically it's still just a 1.6 Astra.

Otherwise all is going well and I'm happy I did it (other members of the household remain unconvinced). Happy overall, but I'm thinking I could have wiped 6 months payments off my loan with the cost of it. Time will tell.

limklad

ninty9er wrote: »

IT's still running fine, but will need to go for a second adjustment regarding the starter.

As the power is negligible, it's an engine conversion rather than modification (though I take your point) and I couldn't be arsed spending an hour trying to explain it to some imbecile at Hibernian
. Basically it's still just a 1.6 Astra.

I may be wrong, but it is best to check out with Hibernian as you may invalidate your insurance by not telling them about the change.

I will ring my own insurance FBD to see what they have to say about it.

ninty9er wrote: »

Otherwise all is going well and I'm happy I did it (other members of the household remain unconvinced). Happy overall, but I'm thinking I could have wiped 6 months payments off my loan with the cost of it. Time will tell.

They might be more convinced when the price of Petrol/Diesel keep going up at a fast rate and E85 price increasing at modest rates. Take that in to account, your car loan might be paid off faster as a result provided that you miles per litres are still the same as before the conversion.

STaN

Hi All,

Where can I get a conversion completed in Dublin? I am driving a turbo charged car so I hopefully won't see fuel economy drop that much.

I am keen to get this done within a month.

Thanks in advance.

derry

I am going the chance it and just put E85 into the tank not using convertion kit

So far have reached a ratio of E40 fuel about ~50% E85 and ~50% E5 fuel

A lot of the blurb online at convertion to E85 sites suggests lots of run of the mill non high performance cars can often run E85 without any convertion kits

Turbo and supercharged types can have more issues and more likely to need suitable convertion kits

Issues that can happen with E85 fuel not using convertion kits are slow starting especially in cold weather and soggy acceleration

Hotter spark plugs can solve the slow starting in cold weather

Advancing timing can solve soggy acceleration effects

Soggy acceleration can be lack of fuel due to it requires 30% more E85 to equal Petrol

Increasing the size of the jets in asperated engines can solve soggy acceleration effects
Increasing the time injectors in direct inject engines can let fuel in can solve soggy acceleration effects
Increasing the size of the fuel pumps can increase the amount of fuel to engine


My solution is every fill increase the amount of E85 mix buy 5% increments

So far no issues and engine seems to love the E85

So far the MPG seem similar within a few % the same running on E40 mix

My car is a 1000cc 3 cylider non flex fuel petrol engine for a 98 Suziki Swift
I suspect that when I get to full E85 mix the MPG could drop
Fuel figure are ~70MPG high way at ~50MPH and ~50 MPG city with fuels

E5 E10 E15 ....E40 mixxes

With fuel costs in Dublin at E1.00 euro for E85 and E1.25 for for E5 it makes sense to keep running at least E40 mix as the saving seem to be about 15%

better than a kick in the teeth and hopefully the cleaner fuel will help keep engine cleaner than normal petrol fuels

Engine might act up before reaching E85 at mayby E75 ratios which seems to be where most engines start to stumble

Should know in a few weeks what the limit is

I have no plans to do any changes of any sort to the engine and will just back off the amount the amount of E85 I use if engine shows sign of issues

Derry