[Heritage] Is there any AEC railcars left in this country?

Run_to_da_hills

I use to go to school in these things back in the early 70ies before CIE butchered them into push pulls powered by C 201 Class locos. Just wondering is have all these DMUs been destroyed or is there any left for preservation? I believe these railcars contained a serious amount of asbesdos.

http://www.eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Irish%20Rail%201970s/slides/pearse10.html

L1011

I believe they were all scrapped from Mullingar in the 1980s. The RPSI don't have any and they'd not be in the ITGs remit unless they could un-butcher them back in to railcars.

Northern Ireland's later asbestos-ridden DMUs ended up shrinkwrapped in Crosshill Quarry so I doubt any ones that heavily laden with them went for preservation anywhere.

Ham'nd'egger

MYOB wrote: »

I believe they were all scrapped from Mullingar in the 1980s. The RPSI don't have any and they'd not be in the ITGs remit unless they could un-butcher them back in to railcars.

Northern Ireland's later asbestos-ridden DMUs ended up shrinkwrapped in Crosshill Quarry so I doubt any ones that heavily laden with them went for preservation anywhere.

The sole example left is an AEC railcar DVT 2624 aka push pull 6111; it was last seen in Inchicore awaiting a better fate. There is a converted buffet car preserved by the RPSI, as well as a converted carriage to work with AEC/BUT GNR sets, if this counts for anything.

Downpatrick had two converted railcar trailers in it's collection; one still survives while one was arson attacked in late 2002; it is also home to one of the very few private railcars, Sligo Leitrim and Northern County Railcar B. There is three West Clare railcar trailers left; two in Dromod and one on the Bord Na Mona bog railway in Offaly; all three are still working well.

corktina

also worth a mmention, three UK examples of GWR railcars which were the forerunners of the irish versions survive...one in Swindon, one in DIdcot and one in Kent I think

Run_to_da_hills

corktina wrote: »

also worth a mention, three UK examples of GWR railcars which were the forerunners of the irish versions survive...one in Swindon, one in DIdcot and one in Kent I think

Any picts? I was on a model very similar to what CIE was using in London back in the early 80ies.

Ham'nd'egger

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Any picts? I was on a model very similar to what CIE was using in London back in the early 80ies.

One in Didcup

DWCommuter

The one in Inchicore is still there. Only thing perlonging its agonising demise of finality is the fact that its under cover of sorts. In bits though. I think Greg Ryan Preservation officer is in charge of it, so expect the cutters torch very soon unless a rich yank displays an interest in it.:D

Ham'nd'egger

DWCommuter wrote: »

The one in Inchicore is still there. Only thing perlonging its agonising demise of finality is the fact that its under cover of sorts. In bits though. I think Greg Ryan Preservation officer is in charge of it, so expect the cutters torch very soon unless a rich yank displays an interest in it.:D

I know the Rev. Ryan personally; maybe I will see try and save it for myself

There is lots of wonders sitting in inchicore, missing presumed scrapped BTW

Run_to_da_hills

Hamndegger wrote: »

One in Didcup

Thats not the same :mad:

corktina

its a very similar chassis and a Park Royal body...just differernt styling...like the difference between a Mk1 and 2 Cortina....one lead to t'other

Run_to_da_hills

corktina wrote: »

its a very similar chassis and a Park Royal body...just differernt styling...like the difference between a Mk1 and 2 Cortina....one lead to t'other

The picture you are depicting is a Swindon bodied railbus. CIE never had them, I never went to school in one and I never saw one in Ireland. It dose not look remotely like any of the Parkroyals CIE had. If you go into a shop and ask for a banana you don’t expect to get an orange: http://www.eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Irish%20Rail%201970s/slides/fairview.html. More pictures of Butchered "Blackout" AEC Railcars pulled by c201 classes http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Irish%20Locos/C201%20Class/slides/218%20Dundalk%2022-07-79.html http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Irish%20Locos/C201%20Class/slides/227%20at%20Howth%20Station.html

corktina

My dear chap noone has claimed they were the same or even similar...the Irish cars were a result of the sucess of the AEC Park Royal GWR cars....A developemnt thereof....

ps I did not depict the GWR car shown at all.....

Run_to_da_hills

DWCommuter wrote: »

The one in Inchicore is still there. Only thing perlonging its agonising demise of finality is the fact that its under cover of sorts. In bits though. I think Greg Ryan Preservation officer is in charge of it, so expect the cutters torch very soon unless a rich yank displays an interest in it.:D

I have dug up some picts of 6111, it looks a sorry state, and this is three years ago. :mad:

Note the suiside doors and facing seats :eek:
http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/I/Inchicore/slides/AEC%20railcar%206111%20at%20Inchicore_2.html

http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/I/Inchicore/slides/Cab%20of%206111%20at%20Inchicore_2.html

IRISH RAIL

6111 is owed by the ITG and not the bishop! (the towers must have go to him)
Its in a bad state at the moment and not under cover but with some luck mr Manto can get her going again. He has done a great job on A39 so im sure 6111 will get the same

lord lucan

got a spin in one of them in the mid-80's from leixlip(louisa bridge) to maynooth and back,c class to maynooth and driving trailer back to leixlip. we used to pester the station master for weeks on end and eventually he surprised us by telling us to hop on. brings back some brilliant memories,sad to see 6111 in that sorry state:(

Propellerhead

In their final state the push pulls were sheer luxury compared to what they were like for a number of years. When I first came across them in 1979 they were fitted out with facing lurid orange or dirty green plastic chairs, similar to the stacking chairs that nearly every school in Ireland had at one stage.

Obviously not fitted out by people who cared about the railways.

When DART came along the few that were left on either the Maynooth line or the Greystones shuttle were refitted with salvaged seats from scrapped main line carriages so there was some comfort in their final years.

It would be nice to have 6111 preserved, just wouldn't get too misty eyed about the bucket seats.

Run_to_da_hills

As a kid going to school I much prefered them as push pulls, In the front section in the Bray to Connolly direction it was so quiet as the loco was at the back. I used to sit next to the driver cab, it could have been taken for an electric train, you also didnt have four under carriage diesels with a gear box belching out fumes which used to find its way through the "slide a lite" windows and doors. Those red seats also served a purpose, they were virtually vandal proof except for the few that were reefed off their mountings and thrown out the window along with those circular neon bulbs :eek:.

Propellerhead

I wouldn't be sentimental at all about them. They were evidence of the contempt that railways were held in once upon a time in this country.

dermo88

Propellerhead - Agree on that point completely. A cutters torch or a petrol bomb is all they are worth. Hideous ugly pieces of third world, second rate rolling stock, where the fares were sky high. Forget them, and may those days never ever return.

Preservation.....my God. We could preserve some relics of that era, such as mass unemployment, Charlie Haughey, emigration, black and white TV, galloping inflation, the troubles in Northern Ireland (Ireland is a master at the understatement, it calls the biggest conflict in human history "The Emergency", and a civil war "The Troubles"). A grey country run by the church, where divorce and contraception were "evil". There was some good in it, in terms of simplicity and people were less materialistic, but overall, there was not much to be nostalgic about. I suppose we should work on preserving Tuberculosis and Industrial schools. We may as well be like Zimbabweans preserving Robert Mugabes memory in 10 or 15 years time.

Run_to_da_hills

dermo88 wrote: »

Propellerhead - Agree on that point completely. A cutters torch or a petrol bomb is all they are worth. Hideous ugly pieces of third world, second rate rolling stock, where the fares were sky high. Forget them, and may those days never ever return.

Preservation.....my God. We could preserve some relics of that era, such as mass unemployment, Charlie Haughey, emigration, black and white TV, galloping inflation, the troubles in Northern Ireland (Ireland is a master at the understatement, it calls the biggest conflict in human history "The Emergency", and a civil war "The Troubles"). A grey country run by the church, where divorce and contraception were "evil". There was some good in it, in terms of simplicity and people were less materialistic, but overall, there was not much to be nostalgic about. I suppose we should work on preserving Tuberculosis and Industrial schools. We may as well be like Zimbabweans preserving Robert Mugabes memory in 10 or 15 years time.

It is this type of ignorant thinking that got rid of Nelsons pillar. You could say the same about steam trains, why don’t the cut these up with oxy torches because they were slow and dirty and reminds of the American depression and WW2 and the Nazis deporting jewish civilians in box cars pulled by steam locomotives to their faith at Auswitch and Dachau.

And to-day we have hyped up property prices and rent, unaffordable care for our elderly, decaying 3rd world medical care, A big brother society where every purchase, phone call or movement you make is on digital record or cctv and can / may be used against you. Ugly gas guzzling SUVs with vulgar sized motors parked in every housing estate in South County Dublin while at the same time there is a serious global environmental concern. Multy channel garbage TV, Drug run cities with a murder twice a week and a mass suicide every six months, Give us back our old country where we had some decent values and a slower pace of life.

dermo88

Run to the Hills - calling my thinking "ignorant is an error, one which I will clearly demonstrate as such. But I'll try to be gentle. Remember, when you point a finger, there are three pointing back.

I never said we should ditch steam trains. Nor for that matter did I mention Nelsons Pillar, much less steam trains carrying civilians to Auschwitz. You are making irrelevant comments. This is a piece of rolling stock which has'nt got much hope of being restored, and it would be out of place in the RPSI set. It would cost easily upwards of 300,000 Euro to restore. It would be nice, but its not exactly practical. When Inchicore is redeveloped, where does this end up. Ideally it should become a public toilet, cab pointing upwards from an oversized dustbin at Heuston when the Interconnector is opened, and all the lines out of Dublin electrified with the caption and Iarnrod Eireann privatised. Preferably with two statues - To the left, a beardy commie beside it "Our members rights....Our members demand...." and to the right - Barry Kenny pickled and preserved in formaldehyde with "LIES" tattooed on his left arm, and "SPIN" on his right.

"In Memoriam of CIE, 1945-2015.....lest we forget"

This will be the most innovative and imaginative public toilet in Western Europe, reminding the Irish public of how they were overcharged for years. In return....they get to urinate in this potent symbol of CIE and all that it represented for me as a child. It was not a public transport service, it was an advertisement for a car dealership. THATS why you have those SUV's and cars on the road today, because memories of the bad times are ingrained and burned on to our collective memories, and it will take a generation to overcome that, and get a proper system. Better late than never.

Its a case of being practical. We could preserve a lot, and have it in a National Railway Museum co-funded by the state (apparently this was to be in Mullingar), and I can only praise the UF&TM, ITG, RPSI and other organisations for doing their work. Sadly, its not Iarnrod Eireanns remit to be a preservation and amusement outlet for trainspotters. Its job is to run a modern railway, and despite its faults, it does a reasonably good job of that. Although "could do better" is a constant remark on its report card.

May I point out, that hyped up property prices were always the case in Ireland, because if you had a job, you could afford a home, but jobs were scarce. Third world medical care was also the case even then. Big brother....I know, I know....thats a wise concern, but you are hyping it up for the sake of melodrama in order to justify your rant. Multi channel garbage TV - ok, lets go back to Murphys Microquizm, Glenroe, Fortycoats, Bosco, and 2 channel land, 4 if you were lucky, and 6 in Dublin. "Serious global environment concern", ....lets replace that with "Worrying about the commies and the nukes". You've got a pair of rose tinted lens on you, and specsavers can't help there I'm afraid.

Its not perfect, no country is, but please be realistic. "Run to the hills"....I think "Ran to the clouds" is a more appropriate epithet, for you are clearly head and shoulders in the clouds. I should thank you rather than ridicule and mock you for the world is a duller place without something to laugh at once in a while.

dermo88

Felt like dragging up this prize beauty from April 2008, while looking through my directory of old posts.

Run_to_da_hills

Its outside :mad:

Cookie_Monster

^ must be as old as this thread :pac::pac::pac:

would it still be there too, looks like an old enough photo

Judgement Day

Send it to the biggest Railway Museum in (Moyasta) or ring the Heritage Office in the Watchtower on (01) 703 3919 and ask for Father Ryan.

http://www.cie.ie/our_services/heritage.asp

Run_to_da_hills

Judgement Day wrote: »

Send it to the biggest Railway Museum in (Moyasta)

That would be worse, the coastal sea air will really finish it. :eek:

Transportuser09

Judgement Day wrote: »

Send it to the biggest Railway Museum in (Moyasta) or ring the Heritage Office in the Watchtower on (01) 703 3919 and ask for Father Ryan.

http://www.cie.ie/our_services/heritage.asp

Here we go again, have a go at some other group that hasn't harmed anyone, maybe bring in how they're to blame for the state of CIÉ today...whats that? Thats not relavent and doesn't make any sense?...oh thats okay as long as we get in our little dig at someone thats the main thing.

L1011

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

That would be worse, the coastal sea air will really finish it. :eek:

They spent much of their operating life pootling up and down the coast...

Run_to_da_hills

MYOB wrote: »

They spent much of their operating life pootling up and down the coast...

In those days they were protected by layers upon layers coach paint and grime from underfloor motors before they went DVT.

dowlingm

Given the integrated nature of the CIE group, a national transport museum should be a nobrainer both in concept and execution, especially given the city centre facility at Broadstone which could be used. I say good on Moyasta for getting things done but shame on CIE who have failed in this as in so many other things.

Cookie_Monster

dowlingm wrote: »

Given the integrated nature of the CIE group, a national transport museum should be a nobrainer both in concept and execution, especially given the city centre facility at Broadstone which could be used. I say good on Moyasta for getting things done but shame on CIE who have failed in this as in so many other things.

CIE should be in no way involved in a national transport museum. They are there (apparently) to run trains and buses. By all means use Broadstone and make it compulsory for the museum to have first call on discarded stock but it should be managed by another part of the Gov, not CIE

dowlingm

cookie, I didn't mean to come off that CIE should run it - it should be a part of the National Museum of Ireland. What I intended to say was that CIE could provide a variety of exhibits from urban buses to freight wagons within one corporate entity without begging four or five different ones. Hopefully that clears it up.

Judgement Day

dowlingm wrote: »

cookie, I didn't mean to come off that CIE should run it - it should be a part of the National Museum of Ireland. What I intended to say was that CIE could provide a variety of exhibits from urban buses to freight wagons within one corporate entity without begging four or five different ones. Hopefully that clears it up.

In an ideal world this would be true but at a 2008 meeting organised by the Heritage Council to discuss the need for a National Transport Museum, Pat Wallace Director of the National Museum stated that we didn't need a such an institution....talk of guarding your own bailiwick. :rolleyes:

dowlingm

Judgement Day wrote: »

In an ideal world this would be true but at a 2008 meeting organised by the Heritage Council to discuss the need for a National Transport Museum, Pat Wallace Director of the National Museum stated that we didn't need a such an institution....talk of guarding your own bailiwick. :rolleyes:

Jee...zus. Considering items like the linkage between the railways and the Famine works programmes (not to mention the targeting of same during the War of Independence and the civil war), and the disappearance of trams and the appearance of Luas 50 years later (plus railways in film - like the Quiet Man ) you'd think there would enough for any museum to get well stuck into. But we have a branch of the museum in Mayo depicting country life so that's okay...

Judgement Day

dowlingm wrote: »

Jee...zus. Considering items like the linkage between the railways and the Famine works programmes (not to mention the targeting of same during the War of Independence and the civil war), and the disappearance of trams and the appearance of Luas 50 years later (plus railways in film - like the Quiet Man ) you'd think there would enough for any museum to get well stuck into. But we have a branch of the museum in Mayo depicting country life so that's okay...

Details of the utterly useless 2008 meeting here: http://www.heritagecouncil.ie/museums-archive/events/view-event/article/transport-collections-ireland-a-future-for-the-past/?tx_ttnews[backPid]=167&cHash=dd0699f708

I attended the meeting for about 30 minutes mainly to see how the Heritage Council were going to get enough heads not to embarrass their UK guest speakers. I need not have worried as the meeting was full of those paid to be there, those who had no reason to be there and everybody else did the time honoured thing of keeping their heads down lest it might jeopardise whatever little hope they might have of receiving crumbs from the table. I left mainly due to acute boredom but I was also afraid of what I might say once I got going!!!!

Despite a promise on the Heritage Council website in June 2008 (!) no report that I know of has been published on the conclusions of the meeting.

Victor

Rambling, off-topic handbags-type discussion deleted.

Captain Halibut

As a kid, I'd help my grandad start each cars engine.
They were fascinating trains. I loved the idea of all
those bizarre controls hidden behind a blind at the
end of a carriage. Here's a shot from a similar AEC
train. (The GNR here had a different paint scheme,
and the shape of the cab was different, but these
controls fit well with my childhood memories.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GWR_Railcar_Cab.jpg

main page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_railcars

Cyberbeagle

Looking to see if anyone has any photos, particularly colour photos, of the interior of either the GNRI or CIE railcars built by AEC/Park Royal.

There's plenty of external photographs in colour, so hopefully someone took a photo of them using a colour roll when inside!

If there is any good reference material as well out there, I would be very interested in it too.

gobnaitolunacy

Cyberbeagle wrote: »

Looking to see if anyone has any photos, particularly colour photos, of the interior of either the GNRI or CIE railcars built by AEC/Park Royal.

There's plenty of external photographs in colour, so hopefully someone took a photo of them using a colour roll when inside!

If there is any good reference material as well out there, I would be very interested in it too.

There is an interior albeit B/W shot of the interior of the 1st class area/driving end in the Oakwood GNRI book.

Hungerford

The answer to the original question might need to be revised: Irish Rail are looking to scrap 6111.

corktina

as i understand it, a deal was done for 6111 which fell through and it is hoped another deal will be done

Grandeeod

They'd better be quick. Its in bits.

Cookie_Monster

corktina wrote: »

as i understand it, a deal was done for 6111 which fell through and it is hoped another deal will be done

deal, do CIE still expect money for it?
I would have thought the state it's in they'd almost want to be paying someone to take it away for them.

mp171

Lads , I checked it out quite extensively 4 years ago when I was in Inchicore (with work) .I remember it on the Bray - Greystones shuttle and it was in a fairly iffy condition then and now its worse . I wonder would something else be worthy of preservation that wouldn't need an amount of money poured into it.

corktina

well it's the last (in Ireland) of a breed with a heritage going back to the 1930s. Can anyone think of a relic more worthy of preservation? An important part of Irish railway history of which there is precious little left in the Republic Just because it is in a state, that's no reason to allow it to be destroyed.

end of the road

corktina wrote: »

well it's the last (in Ireland) of a breed with a heritage going back to the 1930s. Can anyone think of a relic more worthy of preservation? An important part of Irish railway history of which there is precious little left in the Republic Just because it is in a state, that's no reason to allow it to be destroyed.

absolutely couldn't have put it better myself, even if it was preserved as a static exibit surely that would be something at least, once this is destroyed we have no examples of its type left, it would be a tragedy if it gets destroyed, the fact its type were butchered in to rickety horid stock back in the 60s isn't an excuse for it not to be preserved.

Grandeeod

Considering all the dosh IR received over the last 15 years, their cooperation with preservation has been poor. Although a quick skim through recent history shows its on good terms with the RPSI. I last saw 6111 in the flesh circa 2005 under a tatty shed in Inchicore. It was in a pretty bad state then. I get regular updates so I know its falling apart.

What the hell is the Heritage Officer doing? Is he still around? I only have unhappy memories of this class as my heart sank every time it showed up in Skerries pre DART. Even though a Park Royal was ancient, it at least offered comfort. However the class was a long and reliable servant when this country needed trains and the story of that Hurricane night in 1986 really proves how an ancient and delapidated oul bitch came up trumps! Somebody save her.

GBOA

As I understand it, the thing is full of asbestos. I would say that unless IÉ are prepared to remove that first, there's not a hope any preservation group can afford to touch it, regardless if they want to or not.

corktina

If that is the case then why isn't it sheeted over?

IE would have an obligation to remove the asbestos if it is there anyway. There are laws about that sort of thing

end of the road

corktina wrote: »

If that is the case then why isn't it sheeted over?

IE would have an obligation to remove the asbestos if it is there anyway. There are laws about that sort of thing

maybe it was removed during the railcars conversion to pushpull stock? mind you on the little bit i found on them including the wikipedia article their was no mention of asbestos or removal of it so i don't know

Grandeeod

Wasn't there asbestos in tonnes of stuff that has already been preserved???