Certification: Where to start

question3

Hi

Need a few pointers on where to start to get myself better qualified.

I currently work in tech support and am going no where fast. Ill end up doing this forever if I dont get my act together.

I wanna move into servers or into network support. basically into an administration role in a business.

I dont really have much experience in this area, bar my tech support experience, which is quite extensive though.

I was looking at doing some courses, but a lot seem to need prior experience at the minute. I wouldnt be able to even attempt CCNA/MCSE or anything like that yet.
I was looking at doing courses by CompTIA. specifically, the:

CompTIA A+, Network + and Server +

what im wondering is:

• Are they any good?
• Would i get a job with those certifications and tech support experience?
• Are there better courses out there that I could do?

Basically, any help that be sent this way would be great.

cheers

Ginger

If you work in Tech support you could quite easily achieve the MCTS Vista Config which would be easy enough and its a client exam requirement for the MCSA/MCSE

Also there is the MCITP: Enterprise Support Technician and the MCITP: Consumer Support Technician based on the Vista cert.

All there really..

axer

If you have worked tech support then look at doing the CCNA (do the CCENT exam first as it is like an intro and then do the CCNA exam). That gives you a good understanding of networks. Also look at the MCITP:SA/EA paths (the new name for the MCSA/E exams on server 2008). It is good to start with the Vista client exam (70-620). I did it and it was not that hard but it is good to get you going. After that then go into the server exams.

I don't know about the N+ or A+ - they seem very basic but if you are at a very basic level then they might be helpful.

shoegirl

I have both the A+, Network+ and CCNA. I also have the ITIL foundation cert. I've completed the VI3 classroom phase and will be sitting the exam next month. I'm in a midrange role doing a more or less tech lead position for an outsourcer. We do some 3rd level support, and a lot of systems management. It may sound attractive, but when you start getting dumped on by offshore teams at 19:00 in the evening because they don't want to take responsiblity, its no better than doing tech support!

CCNA is VERY useful but won't necessarily walk you into a job. Its helpful but not everything. After I did mine (was working in a helpdesk role really at the time after some time doing process management in a company that effectively sold off its contracts and left me with that or redundancy) and shortly after got a role on a monitoring team that exposed me to servers, networks and applications. Basically what really got me into servers was a maverick megalomanic colleague who was taking on all the network support himself. The networking knowledge hugely helped me in the area of general infrastructure support - if you look at the MCPs, particularly the server based ones, about 25% of the exam depends on having some level of knowledge of networking. But employers will want real world experience.

I'd suggest doing an MCP or two - Active Directory and databases or collaboration certs are great to have - companies are crying out for knowledge of SQL in particular if you can stomach that. Again might be difficult without experience. You might be able to get more knowledge of Exchange if you are working on a suport job, try to get a bit of exposure to application support if you can as this helped my cv no end.

VMware - again great to have, as are any Linux certs - but they are difficult. The one thing you would find hard I think is getting into a better job - you will find though, once you've broken out of the tech support closet, its a lot easier to compete for jobs, as there are just so many ex support people in Ireland looking to get out.

A+ and Network+ might be a bit easy for you - gof ro MCP first and see how you get on. Server 2003 or 2008 would be good right now too. I would be really happy if I coud find good people with genuine knowledge of either of the above OSes as I find a lot of people, even MCPs, bull***t a lot about their real level of knowledge.

Static M.e.

Great Post by Shoegirl.

I would be really happy if I coud find good people with genuine knowledge of either of the above OSes as I find a lot of people, even MCPs, bull***t a lot about their real level of knowledge.

I'll take the bait, what do you want to know? (Pm me, if you want)

Feelgood

question3 wrote: »

I wouldnt be able to even attempt CCNA/MCSE or anything like that yet.

This is your first hurdle, if you keep telling yourself that then your not going to get very far. I think everyone looks at the whole area of IT certification completely arseways. Sure a CCNA and MSCE will increase your chances of getting a better job though is it what you want to do?.

You should take a step back and really think about what it is that you want from your career. What is it about IT that you like?. Is it networks?. Is it databases, operating systems or programming?. When you know that then pick you certifications and work towards your goal.

There is no point in saying yeah I want to get a CCNA and MCSE, basically because they are the latest buzz words around the IT world. You should be saying yeah networking interests me so I will focus on Cisco and Juniper certifications. You will find that when your interested in a subject it becomes extremely easy to learn about.....

So thats how easy it is!. Now ask yourself the question if people can just get these certs like that are they really worth anything at the end of the day?.

aidan_walsh

Feelgood, please do not recommend the use of braindumps.

Feelgood

aidan_walsh wrote: »

Feelgood, please do not recommend the use of braindumps.

Alright Aidan, why is that?...

feylya

Cos it's not exactly learning the material, it's just remembering the answers which will result in less knowledgable/experienced people with the certifications which in turn will reduce how useful the certs are.

aidan_walsh

Feelgood wrote: »

Alright Aidan, why is that?...

Braindumps typically use official question sheets taken from exams, which is against the agreements exam participants have to sign to sit the exam. The one you mentioned has, IIRC, been in some trouble with Microsoft for this practise.

Ginger

Braindumps are equivelent to warez as they are stolen material from the exam which are covered as IP for most companies. So hence why they are not legit

Feelgood

I understand though the use of them along with the proper course material, eg Cisco press books etc can be beneficial for people trying to get certified. Not from the point of view of rhyming all the answers off, but by giving the candidate an idea of how questions are structured, what areas they are likely to be tested on etc etc.

Regardless of personal opinions on them, people are still gonna use them anyway. I know it undermines the whole area if IT certification though it just further proves my point that people are brainwashed into thinking that a CCNA or a MCSE is somehow a golden ticket to a better career, way too much emphasis on them IMO.

All certifications should be heading down the route of say the current Redhat or Suse practicums, at least then they would have some value as you would be demonstrating your skills rather than answering a series of multiple choice questions which the answer to, are openly available on the net..

Wasn't aware that the said website was in trouble with Micro$oft over it though thats quite interesting.

Static M.e.

@Feelgood, I agree with a lot of what you have said

However

Feelgood wrote: »

So thats how easy it is!. Now ask yourself the question if people can just get these certs like that are they really worth anything at the end of the day?.

Thats depends what you want to do with your Certs, they aren't the be all and end of all of IT, nor are they a definite reflection of what a person knows or doesn't know, and yes any old dodger can get one if they so wish by using Brain dumps, I don't think thats the point.

At the end of the day what do you want your Certs to do for you?, they won't automatically get you that job or promotion but they might show that you have an interest in ongoing learning, that you have an interest in new technology that you like to learn about new things. A certification is just something to work for, a goal at the end of your study, what do you think a Degree is? a Masters? a PHD? they are all just pieces of paper in the end. (Very Simplistic examples, I know)

Sure a CCNA and MSCE will increase your chances of getting a better job though is it what you want to do?.

Isn't that enough? The whole point of a CV is to get you the interview after that you are on your own, its your experience that will impress the panel.

Also not to forget if you don't get a better job then you aren't going to get to look after more complex systems which means you won't get the experience. Someone, somewhere along your career path has to take a chance on you and give you that job\responsibility which enables you to get more experienced with that subject, it doesn't matter if its Microsoft, Cisco, Sun, linux, Unix or whatever.

Bottom line is that when you go for an Job, 90% of the time, HR has a list of required knowledge or Certs on the Job application, if your Cv and the Job requirements don't match up, they push you to the bottom of the pile.

Certifications mean different things to different people. I like to be rewarded when I have finished my study, whether thats a gold star at the top of my page, a big red A+ or a Cert from MS. Its recognition that I have passed my test and here is something to prove it.

You will find that when your interested in a subject it becomes extremely easy to learn about.....

100% Agree, isn't learning Fun?

Ginger

Feelgood wrote: »

I understand though the use of them along with the proper course material, eg Cisco press books etc can be beneficial for people trying to get certified. Not from the point of view of rhyming all the answers off, but by giving the candidate an idea of how questions are structured, what areas they are likely to be tested on etc etc.

Regardless of personal opinions on them, people are still gonna use them anyway. I know it undermines the whole area if IT certification though it just further proves my point that people are brainwashed into thinking that a CCNA or a MCSE is somehow a golden ticket to a better career, way too much emphasis on them IMO.

All certifications should be heading down the route of say the current Redhat or Suse practicums, at least then they would have some value as you would be demonstrating your skills rather than answering a series of multiple choice questions which the answer to, are openly available on the net..

Wasn't aware that the said website was in trouble with Micro$oft over it though thats quite interesting.

I would differ on the use of the test material with the books. Why would you even bother with teh books if you know the questions coming up..

Test matrices on the exam landing pages usually will tell you what they expect to come up. Sample exams from authorised providers should help you with exam formats and questions. But using them as a guide.. come on..

No cert is a ticket to a career unfortunately in the same vein that a degree is not a ticket to a job either.

TK were sued by MS and in a settlement reached they said by the end of July 2007 that all their test guides would not contain actual MS questions from their exams. But this only goes for MS products not any of the other ones. Now the same has happened with a couple of other sites offering similar services. Its starting to crack down thankfully.

FruitLover

feylya wrote: »

Cos it's not exactly learning the material, it's just remembering the answers which will result in less knowledgable/experienced people with the certifications which in turn will reduce how useful the certs are.

Plus could land the OP up sh1t creek in an interview if they get asked questions that would require understanding rather than good memory.

rom

FruitLover wrote: »

Plus could land the OP up sh1t creek in an interview if they get asked questions that would require understanding rather than good memory.

totally true.

But some people are not good at exams. Some questions are there to trick you. How do you do blah, a ,b ,c .

Its like having an exam for programming expecting you to code on paper which is not the best but its what is done .

question3

thanks for all the help everyone, i have been reading just not replying

so i am thinking of doing these two:

MCDST
CCENT

i think both of them would get me a good start anyway.

now i was looking at studying for them and you can do courses, but these are a good bit of money.

now i have seen books that people have recommended.

For the MCDST:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0735622272/sr=1-1/qid=1156801743/ref=sr_1_1/104-6313703-3867159?ie=UTF8&s=books
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0735622213/sr=1-1/qid=1156801743/ref=sr_1_1/104-6313703-3867159?ie=UTF8&s=books

for the CCENT:

http://www.amazon.com/CCENT-ICND1-Official-Certification-Guide/dp/1587201828/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210588994&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/CCENT-Certified-Networking-Technician-640-822/dp/0470247029/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210588994&sr=8-2

what im wondering is would these be enough, would you be able to study properly with just these books on your own or would you need to do a course?

Feelgood

question3 wrote: »

http://www.amazon.com/CCENT-Certified-Networking-Technician-640-822/dp/0470247029/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210588994&sr=8-2

This is the only book you need to pass the CCENT or CCNA. Not only does this book cover everything you need to know, but Todd Lammle writes in a way that actually makes it interesting to the reader. You will find that unlike other certification books, its nearly impossible to put down.

On top of that you are going to need a router simulator to practice on. Off the top of my head I would say either Router Sim or Boson for CCNA. Quite costly, probably about $200 or so for them, though you will find that you will be able to get them free in places if you look hard enough...

Theres a new Cisco router simulator available though I can't seem to get my hands on it, I don't think you can even buy it. Its called Packet Tracer, though looks like you can only get it if you attend an official Cisco course :mad:

axer

Feelgood wrote: »

This is the only book you need to pass the CCENT or CCNA. Not only does this book cover everything you need to know, but Todd Lammle writes in a way that actually makes it interesting to the reader. You will find that unlike other certification books, its nearly impossible to put down.

On top of that you are going to need a router simulator to practice on. Off the top of my head I would say either Router Sim or Boson for CCNA. Quite costly, probably about $200 or so for them, though you will find that you will be able to get them free in places if you look hard enough...

Theres a new Cisco router simulator available though I can't seem to get my hands on it, I don't think you can even buy it. Its called Packet Tracer, though looks like you can only get it if you attend an official Cisco course :mad:

Take a look at GNS3. Its a router simulator system that is completely free except you will need cisco IOS's to work with but the good thing is they boot actual IOS's not just a simulation of the IOS.

I found the CBT Nuggets very good for the CCNA. The guy who does those videos makes it very interesting and adds some other useful info like packet sniffing.

Feelgood

axer wrote: »

Take a look at GNS3. Its a router simulator system that is completely free except you will need cisco IOS's to work with but the good thing is they boot actual IOS's not just a simulation of the IOS.

I found the CBT Nuggets very good for the CCNA. The guy who does those videos makes it very interesting and adds some other useful info like packet sniffing.

Nice one Axer, I have heard about these alright though where can you get an image if you don't have a router?. Are they downloadable from somewhere?...

CBT Nuggets are class alright, though expensive. Try www.cbtworld.net if your looking for them...

axer

Feelgood wrote: »

Nice one Axer, I have heard about these alright though where can you get an image if you don't have a router?. Are they downloadable from somewhere?...

You have to get your hands on an IOS from somewhere - legally of course.

the_syco

axer wrote: »

You have to get your hands on an IOS from somewhere - legally of course.

Pretty sure you can get them free from the Cisco site.

Feelgood

axer wrote: »

You have to get your hands on an IOS from somewhere - legally of course.

Yeah thats a bit of a tricky one though, most of the routers we work with are configured and in production and the ones that aren't have an old version of the IOS on them. Another option would be to get an 800 series router, they cost around €120 and have the full version of the IOS including SDM on them.

Feelgood

the_syco wrote: »

Pretty sure you can get them free from the Cisco site.

If you can find them syco, post a link up. Anyone got there hands on Packet Tracer??.

Mr Bloat

I have packet tracer.

NullZer0

shoegirl wrote: »

I would be really happy if I coud find good people with genuine knowledge of either of the above OSes as I find a lot of people, even MCPs, bull***t a lot about their real level of knowledge.

Well to be honest it doesn't require a whole lot of knowledge to pass MCSA/MCSE with flying colors.

I found the exams to be more of an advertisement for Microsoft than anything else.

Sure the "HR People" value it... but only because most of them dont understand it.


Realistically you will have to do MCSA/MCSE for some jobs. But, once you get that out of the way look at something like Cisco CCNA, CCNP, Oracle, MS SQL Server, SAN (actually come to think of it SAN is the one thing that has always come up against me).

NullZer0

+1 GNS3


Heres some good tutorials:

http://blindhog.net

Feelgood

aidan_walsh wrote: »

Hey guys.

Who do you use for your exam preparation papers? How about some links to sites and companies offering these supplies by the exams they are used with?

No braindumps will be linked. I'll be checking up on any and everyone linked here, and if I get so much as a sniff they they're not legit then they'll be cut.

Hey Aidan,

Good question and I'd like to see the response to this, though I can safely say I think 80% of people use braindumps coming up to certifications as we spoke about last week at some stage.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055272232

Static and Ginger brought up some very good points in that thread, apologies didn't get a chance to reply to ye!. Look at it this way, there are a crazy amount of certifications on the go at the minute. If you look at Irish jobs website, the majority of the jobs on offer ask for at a minimum CCNA, MCSE, Suse CLP or whatever.

The people that are working in an IT role at the moment are the ones that are looking for certifications as they have found their niche, want to further their career, requirement for job etc etc. The problem is that their companies aren't going to pay 3-4k a course to do a 3 or 4 Cisco/Microsoft courses (15-20k) and they can't afford it themselves so what is the alternative?.

Self study books and CBT's and the internet basically and eventually during your period of studying you are going to look for past questions for these exams and what do you find - braindumps!. Its only natural that people look for previous exam questions, as you would with your leaving cert, college degrees etc.

To combat this I think the only way forward is practicums such as the Redhat or Suse exams (Did the RHCE one and failed, was a complete bitch). Otherwise people like the idea of taking 3-4 weeks using a self study book and a braindump and hey presto certification done and dusted. That coupled with the price of each exam promotes the use of braindumps.

Apologies for hijacking your thread, but if you wouldn't mind out of pure curiosity and as well as posting links to legit exam preparation sites could we do a head count of who is or has used brain dumps for certifications?.

I'll be the first to admit that I have, but not without the use of CBT's or self study guides prior to even looking at the brain dumps. In fact any of the guys that I work with that are certified have used brain dumps consistently to achieve certifications.

NullZer0

Feelgood wrote: »

could we do a head count of who is or has used brain dumps for certifications?.

I'll be the first to admit that I have, but not without the use of CBT's or self study guides prior to even looking at the brain dumps. In fact any of the guys that I work with that are certified have used brain dumps consistently to achieve certifications.

I think you should slow down a bit there.

I haven't used braindumps but I see where you are coming from.
I can't imagine myself working on the job and not knowing what to do because I used a braindump - that approach to me is not worth it.

You say people use past exam questions for the leaving cert etc... remember that there are new questions every year- yeah the past questions help.

But with a braindump isn't it the EXACT questions on the exam.


Are you sure you want to post such a statement about your use of braindumps on a public website? - Think about that

Feelgood

Aidan is probably going to go nuts in the morning for thread spoiling, though I think its an area that needs to be addressed particularly when there are about 10 threads a week with people wanting a CCNA or MCSE etc.

iRock you are on the money, certifications are all about learning a skill and knowledge and applying that knowledge in order to make you better at what you do and to understand the equipment and technologies that you are going to be using in you everyday work. Thats what certification is to me period. If I'm going to be working with Microsoft or Cisco products I need to know about them, end of story.

The thing is that most people see a certification as the holy grail of the IT world. Our whole profession has now become tainted with certifications, with people dwelling on them far too much. Personally I think they are more of a professional slow down than anything else.

My point is that, you could spend 6 months studying like a scholar for a certification whereas I got get a braindump and get the same certification in 3 weeks. Lets play it like it is, your chatting to the lads in work talking about how your going to do certification X, one lad says yeah I have a hard drive here with all the CBT vids if you want it, another lad has all the books in pdf and then your hear about braindump site x which has all the answers. Do you know how many of those conversations I have heard over lunch in the last 10 years?.

Look I am not completely knocking certifications by any means, I just think it fair that when these guys on the help desk or desktop support come along looking to further their careers that they know and are aware of brain dumps and instead of denying all existance and usage that it is addressed accordingly. Thats the only way that this thing will progress, as the vendors will change their exams to be practical and rather than candidates focusing on the correct answer to a multiple choice question they will be focusing on the correct physical way to support and configure the technologies which is the whole idea of certification in the first place.

I have no problems saying that I have come across brain dumps on a public website to be honest. You think that employers don't know that they exist too?. I think I was asked about my certifications twice in about 30 interviews over the years and I actually had a discussion with an employer over the use of brain dumps and how easy it was to achieve a certification and he totally agreed with me and I find that its the general consensus with a lot of the employers today.

There are a couple of employers that I know of now actually put a PC in front of you and ask you to configure something correctly which will I think become a common practice soon enough.

Anyways its late/early, apologies for the rant and again apologies to Aidan for going off topic with this. Feel free to shoot me down, but it's just my personal opinion on the subject.

question3

Feelgood wrote: »

This is the only book you need to pass the CCENT or CCNA. Not only does this book cover everything you need to know, but Todd Lammle writes in a way that actually makes it interesting to the reader. You will find that unlike other certification books, its nearly impossible to put down.

On top of that you are going to need a router simulator to practice on. Off the top of my head I would say either Router Sim or Boson for CCNA. Quite costly, probably about $200 or so for them, though you will find that you will be able to get them free in places if you look hard enough...

Theres a new Cisco router simulator available though I can't seem to get my hands on it, I don't think you can even buy it. Its called Packet Tracer, though looks like you can only get it if you attend an official Cisco course :mad:

thats great

im gonna buy that one, but have also got the other one in a pdf format so at least i have both of them.

would a router sim be needed for the CCENT?

see i think i will end up getting the CCNA in two stages.

If i do the 640-822 ICND1 first, that gets CCENT certification then i can do the 640-816 ICND2. Combining the two also gives CCNA certification.

axer

question3 wrote: »

would a router sim be needed for the CCENT?

It would be a good idea as the CCENT covers setting up a switch (which is basic enough) and setting up basic routing. If you haven't used a cisco IOS command line interface then it would be a good idea to have something to practice on to help you get used to the commands. If you are going to buy a router simulator then possibly look at purchasing a cisco 851/871 router instead as it can work out at about the same price.

question3 wrote: »

see i think i will end up getting the CCNA in two stages.

Definitely do it in two stages. It doesnt cost that much extra and will be less pressure on you.

Tableman

Based on all the replies above, it would seem that Comptia wouldnt be much good ? Nobody has recommended it.

aidan_walsh

Comptia offer many certifications, so it would depend on what ones you are talking about.

Tableman

Comptia offer many certifications, so it would depend on what ones you are talking about.

My apologies, I meant to type CompTIA A+

the_syco

Tableman wrote: »

Based on all the replies above, it would seem that Comptia wouldnt be much good ? Nobody has recommended it.

Depends. If you have no certs, the CompTIA A+ will open doors for you, on the lower rungs of IT Support. Sure, they may not be great jobs, but you'll be seen as someone with some type of IT qualification.