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Reflexology in Galway..

  • 09-04-2008 12:15pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,097 ✭✭✭


    Anyone got any experience in going to see a reflexologist? Or foot massaging people in general? My feet are killing me these past few weeks and someone suggested it..I know Dr and Herbs on Shop Street have a chinese medicene reflexology..any one know of anywhere else?


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 673 ✭✭✭lighthouse


    Been doing a search on reflexology in Galway here and saw this post. I have a sinus problem which I have been seeing a specialist in University College Hospital for about 2 years now. I have undergone all kinds of allergy and blood tests and my medications, nasal sprays changed as well but I am very sceptical as to the effectiveness of these treatements. Someone recommended reflexology. Can anyone shine any light on whether this might be an effective treatement for me?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,220 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Galway->Health Science


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 603 ✭✭✭dapto1


    lighthouse wrote: »
    Been doing a search on reflexology in Galway here and saw this post. I have a sinus problem which I have been seeing a specialist in University College Hospital for about 2 years now. I have undergone all kinds of allergy and blood tests and my medications, nasal sprays changed as well but I am very sceptical as to the effectiveness of these treatements. Someone recommended reflexology. Can anyone shine any light on whether this might be an effective treatement for me?

    Here is an article from Quackwatch, including references:

    http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/reflex.html

    And a Skeptoid article/podcast, also with references:

    http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4024

    I highly recommend you read them, and draw your own conclusions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 673 ✭✭✭lighthouse


    dapto1 wrote: »
    Here is an article from Quackwatch, including references:

    http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/reflex.html

    And a Skeptoid article/podcast, also with references:

    http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4024

    I highly recommend you read them, and draw your own conclusions.

    Thanks a million. I'll have a read and come back to you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    This thread doesn't belong in Health Sciences.
    Punted back to Galway.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 673 ✭✭✭lighthouse


    Hi,
    I read the articles and it's not really possible to draw my own conclusions because both articles are biased against reflexology and the conclusions are already drawn. I would be interested if anyone else has positive experiences of reflexology. I was visiting a friend recently and her friend was a reflexologist. I told her of my sinus problem and within a few seconds of her massaging my foot I could feel tingling in my sinuses. The following day the drip I have at the back of my throat was worse as well my cough so something was definitely happening.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 385 ✭✭Dutchess


    www.massagetherapygalway.com is website for Dawn Castle. I only have experience with the deep tissue massage and Indian Head massage but both are awesome.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 603 ✭✭✭dapto1


    lighthouse wrote: »
    Hi,
    I read the articles and it's not really possible to draw my own conclusions because both articles are biased against reflexology and the conclusions are already drawn.

    Quackwatch is highly respected in the journalistic and scientific communities.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quackwatch

    And the Skeptoid article references a number of reputable sources, such as The American Journal of Medicine.
    lighthouse wrote: »
    I would be interested if anyone else has positive experiences of reflexology.

    If you want to base decisions about your health on anecdotal evidence rather than actual scientific literature, then fire away.
    lighthouse wrote: »
    I was visiting a friend recently and her friend was a reflexologist. I told her of my sinus problem and within a few seconds of her massaging my foot I could feel tingling in my sinuses. The following day the drip I have at the back of my throat was worse as well my cough so something was definitely happening.

    So going on that "evidence", you could just as easily say reflexology made your cough and throat worse?

    I hate to see people manipulated and cheated out of money they work hard for. If reflexology worked, all doctors would do it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 673 ✭✭✭lighthouse


    "If reflexology worked, all doctors would do it."
    I'm afraid I would have to disagree with you on this. It's not in a doctor's interest to promote alternative medicine. That's a bit like saying all psychiatrists should practice psychotherapy.
    Regarding my symptoms getting worse is thast not a common outcome at the start of new treatement.
    I would just prefer some unbiased opinions on the subject.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 603 ✭✭✭dapto1


    lighthouse wrote: »
    " It's not in a doctor's interest to promote alternative medicine.

    No, it's in a doctor's best interest to treat the patient. If reflexology worked, doctors would do it.
    lighthouse wrote: »
    Regarding my symptoms getting worse is thast not a common outcome at the start of new treatement.

    So is getting better. So is nothing happening. So this is not proof of anything.
    lighthouse wrote: »
    I would just prefer some unbiased opinions on the subject.

    You would rather get anecdotal evidence from anonymous strangers on boards than articles from respected sites that use actually citations to both reputable primary literature and directly from reflexology publications?

    This is your health, man. And your money. I know it's frustrating when you have a medical problem. But that's what reflexologists, homeopaths, psychics and all other manner of snake oil salesmen prey upon- frustration and desperation.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 673 ✭✭✭lighthouse


    You are obviously against reflexology so I won't discuss your points as we could be back and forth all day. I'll keep an eye on this thread and see what other people's opinions are.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 603 ✭✭✭dapto1


    Yes, I'm against pseudoscience and charlatanism in all its forms.

    Best of luck, I hope your condition improves and that you don't get taken advantage of.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 126 ✭✭Galwayps


    I have gone for reflexology and head massage with this lady. I can only say it worked for me
    www.galwayrelaxtion.com


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭gaeilgegrinds1


    Worked for me. And my God was I cynical!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 673 ✭✭✭lighthouse


    Worked for me. And my God was I cynical!

    Do you mind me asking me what was the problem?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭gaeilgegrinds1


    Migraines and constipation. Tummy cramps too. Practitioner was also a nurse. Found it amazing, great advice too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,361 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    dapto1 wrote: »
    No, it's in a doctor's best interest to treat the patient. If reflexology worked, doctors would do it.

    Do you believe that physiotherapy works? I had a GP back home who didn't believe in it:- getting a referral from him to a (equivalent of chartered) physio was a bit of a mission. Does that mean he wasn't a doctor (and a very helpful one in certain ways, including being open to see patient at 8am) - not a bit.

    IMHO It's a bit like vitamin C: I've read the evidence synthesis that came to the conclusion that Vit C doesn't protect against colds or help recover from them faster. I believe this evidence - on a population basis. But for myself, I believe that taking large doses of Vit C in the first few days of a cold massively speeds my recovery. I don't know why, and I don't know why it doesn't work for (all) other people. I don't know what the biological mechanism it uses is. But I'm convinced that it works for me.

    In the same way, given that it does no harm, I see no reason why the OP shouldn't try reflexology. Yes it can be dangerous if someone sticks to it and avoids other diagnostic professionals. But there's nothing in reflexology that says "don't go to the doctor".

    OP - there's a national register - see http://www.nationalreflexology.ie/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 603 ✭✭✭dapto1


    JustMary wrote: »
    Do you believe that physiotherapy works? I had a GP back home who didn't believe in it:- getting a referral from him to a (equivalent of chartered) physio was a bit of a mission. Does that mean he wasn't a doctor (and a very helpful one in certain ways, including being open to see patient at 8am) - not a bit.

    Yes, I believe physiotherapy works. I don't really understand what point the rest of the paragraph is trying to make...
    JustMary wrote: »
    IMHO It's a bit like vitamin C: I've read the evidence synthesis that came to the conclusion that Vit C doesn't protect against colds or help recover from them faster. I believe this evidence - on a population basis. But for myself, I believe that taking large doses of Vit C in the first few days of a cold massively speeds my recovery. I don't know why, and I don't know why it doesn't work for (all) other people. I don't know what the biological mechanism it uses is. But I'm convinced that it works for me.

    Placebo effect, possibly?
    JustMary wrote: »
    In the same way, given that it does no harm, I see no reason why the OP shouldn't try reflexology. Yes it can be dangerous if someone sticks to it and avoids other diagnostic professionals. But there's nothing in reflexology that says "don't go to the doctor".

    Yes, but don't you find it morally repugnant that people are exploiting others' suffering and desperation with quackery?

    Here's an idea: Find out the price of a few sessions with a reflexologist. Then, give that money to a charity you feel strongly about. There's no harm in that, either. In fact, it will do some good. And you will feel better as well.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    dapto1 wrote: »
    Yes, I believe physiotherapy works. I don't really understand what point the rest of the paragraph is trying to make...



    Placebo effect, possibly?



    Yes, but don't you find it morally repugnant that people are exploiting others' suffering and desperation with quackery?

    Here's an idea: Find out the price of a few sessions with a reflexologist. Then, give that money to a charity you feel strongly about. There's no harm in that, either. In fact, it will do some good. And you will feel better as well.
    You probably feel the same way about fortune tellers, drinks companies etc People make their own choices to go to these people, drink, smoke etc. You don't seem to be aware of the concept of people making their own choices.

    If someone decides to go to a quack and no one else, that's not the quacks fault. It's the person thats stupid and thats their own personal responsibility and they will have to live with the consequences of their decision.

    What works for one person may not work for the next be it western or alternative medicine. You owe it to yourself if you have something wrong to try whatever you want until you find out what works for you


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 603 ✭✭✭dapto1


    You probably feel the same way about fortune tellers, drinks companies etc People make their own choices to go to these people, drink, smoke etc. You don't seem to be aware of the concept of people making their own choices.

    I'm not trying to force anyone to do anything, I'm just suggesting they research it thoroughly and think critically before handing over their money to people who claims magical pathways run from their feet to the rest of the body.
    If someone decides to go to a quack and no one else, that's not the quacks fault. It's the person thats stupid and thats their own personal responsibility and they will have to live with the consequences of their decision.

    That's a fine idea in theory, but it's not exactly practical. Their friends/family also have to live with their decision. And as I said, people can understandably get desperate when they or a loved one are suffering. That's what these people prey on, others desperation.

    What works for one person may not work for the next be it western or alternative medicine. You owe it to yourself if you have something wrong to try whatever you want until you find out what works for you

    But as has been shown time and time again, reflexology doesn't work. It's just a foot massage. If you want a foot massage, get one. They're lovely. But reflexologists charging people through the nose (foot?) with bogus claims of being able to fix other ailments is pure exploitation, and they should be ashamed of themselves.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    I understand your skepticism, I am a major cynic myself but people are stupid and will make bad decisions all through their life. Be it this decision to smoke, staying with a partner that beats them up etc

    The only way you can judge these situations is if you yourself have had a long term pain/injury. If you were in constant pain are you telling me you wouldn't do whatever you could to find a resolution to it, I would and I'm a cynic.

    You say time and time again reflexology has been shown not to work. Well it either does something for people (relieves pain) or they just like going and paying for it (pampering)

    What about the govt charging us through the nose for services, thats exploitation too. It happens


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 603 ✭✭✭dapto1


    The only way you can judge these situations is if you yourself have had a long term pain/injury. If you were in constant pain are you telling me you wouldn't do whatever you could to find a resolution to it, I would and I'm a cynic

    No, it's not the only way to judge it. How about properly conducted, controlled, blinded medical trials? That's how medical science works. It's not perfect, but it's better than hocus pocus.

    Or even having an actual physically possible mechanism by which reflexology is supposed to work? There is none.
    You say time and time again reflexology has been shown not to work. Well it either does something for people (relieves pain) or they just like going and paying for it (pampering)

    So it works because people do it? And people do it because it works? Circular reasoning, come on.

    What about the govt charging us through the nose for services, thats exploitation too. It happens

    Yes, of course that's exploitation too. That doesn't mean we should just take it though, does it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 673 ✭✭✭lighthouse


    I appreciate all the comments. While I haven't my mind made up yet I am veering to trying reflexology. I have had a sinus problem for years. I am seeing a specialist in University College Hospital Galway. My medication and nasal sprays have been changed. Earlier in the year I was referred to another specialist in the hospital who was talking to me about having an operation on my nose which would involve a general anasthetic, with all the accompanying risks. I have experience of psychiatrists diagnosing me with an illness and telling me I would have to take medication for the rest of my life. I have been off psychiatric medication for 17 years and got to the root of my problems through psychotherapy and holotropic breathwork. So I am open to alternative forms of practice.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 603 ✭✭✭dapto1


    Best of luck with it man. Whatever decision you come to, I hope it works out for you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    dapto1 wrote: »
    No, it's not the only way to judge it. How about properly conducted, controlled, blinded medical trials? That's how medical science works. It's not perfect, but it's better than hocus pocus.

    Or even having an actual physically possible mechanism by which reflexology is supposed to work? There is none.



    So it works because people do it? And people do it because it works? Circular reasoning, come on.




    Yes, of course that's exploitation too. That doesn't mean we should just take it though, does it?

    Look I'll dumb it down if someone tries it and it helps them thats what I call a success.

    You can do all the medical trials you want it still has absolutely no relevance to the guy that has benefited from it.

    You didn't answer what you would do if you were suffering yourself!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 603 ✭✭✭dapto1


    Look I'll dumb it down if someone tries it and it helps them thats what I call a success.

    Even if that "success" is just a misinterpretation of regression to the mean? http://www.badscience.net/2008/11/whinge-moan/
    You didn't answer what you would do if you were suffering yourself!!!

    No, I wouldn't. Because it doesn't work.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    dapto1 wrote: »
    Even if that "success" is just a misinterpretation of regression to the mean? http://www.badscience.net/2008/11/whinge-moan/

    I'm sure even you can differentiate between pain and no pain

    dapto1 wrote: »
    No, I wouldn't. Because it doesn't work.

    That must be a great Crystal ball you have that can see into the future and tell you what does and doesn't work.

    You are just making yourself look really stupid here with your "My way or the highway" attitude.

    Unless your science articles conclusively that 100% of people gain no benefits from alternative therapies then they mean absolutely nothing


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,650 ✭✭✭cooperguy


    Placebos are crazy things! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1Q3jZw4FGs


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    This placebo is the Shiznit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hErIPWkzYyI


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭inisboffin


    lighthouse wrote: »
    I appreciate all the comments. While I haven't my mind made up yet I am veering to trying reflexology. I have had a sinus problem for years. I am seeing a specialist in University College Hospital Galway. My medication and nasal sprays have been changed. Earlier in the year I was referred to another specialist in the hospital who was talking to me about having an operation on my nose which would involve a general anasthetic, with all the accompanying risks. I have experience of psychiatrists diagnosing me with an illness and telling me I would have to take medication for the rest of my life. I have been off psychiatric medication for 17 years and got to the root of my problems through psychotherapy and holotropic breathwork. So I am open to alternative forms of practice.

    A good friend of mine had sinus trouble for years, she was on prescription meds and about to look into surgery. She's a bit of a cynic (by her own admission) but her cousin persuaded her to *try* a combo of acupuncture (mainly for stress relief as the condition was making her miserable) and a Neti Pot,
    She tried both and had a huge turnaround in just under a month. The neti pot is a little daunting at first, I have tried it, but found it gave a lot of relief when I had a sinus infection.


    On magical pathways...I just scratched my foot the other day and lo and behold, felt a corresponding reaction on my back...yay! I have a magical pathway!:rolleyes:

    Isn't acupuncture (and how it works) pretty much accepted by 'Western medicine' these day? It has a lot of magical pathways going on!:p


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,650 ✭✭✭cooperguy


    inisboffin wrote: »
    Isn't acupuncture (and how it works) pretty much accepted by 'Western medicine' these day? It has a lot of magical pathways going on!:p

    No it isnt at all!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 603 ✭✭✭dapto1


    I'm sure even you can differentiate between pain and no pain

    Wow, a non-sequitir response to what I posted and an ad hominem attack in one sentence, fair play.

    That must be a great Crystal ball you have that can see into the future and tell you what does and doesn't work.

    Em, I'm going on empirical evidence. Not a crystal ball. But I hear crystals are really good for your "energy" as well, I know a guy who can hook you up with one for the low low price of €79.99!

    You are just making yourself look really stupid here with your "My way or the highway" attitude.

    Where have I said that? Actually, I said:

    "Best of luck with it man. Whatever decision you come to, I hope it works out for you."
    Unless your science articles conclusively that 100% of people gain no benefits from alternative therapies then they mean absolutely nothing

    "My" science articles? As much as I'd love to be published by some of those publications, I haven't been. And your statement shows a complete lack of understanding of the scientific method.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 603 ✭✭✭dapto1


    inisboffin wrote: »
    A good friend of mine had sinus trouble for years, she was on prescription meds and about to look into surgery. She's a bit of a cynic (by her own admission) but her cousin persuaded her to *try* a combo of acupuncture (mainly for stress relief as the condition was making her miserable) and a Neti Pot,
    She tried both and had a huge turnaround in just under a month. The neti pot is a little daunting at first, I have tried it, but found it gave a lot of relief when I had a sinus infection.

    The Neti Pot seems to have a sound anatomical and physiological basis. It physically cleans out the nasal canal.
    inisboffin wrote: »
    Isn't acupuncture (and how it works) pretty much accepted by 'Western medicine' these day? It has a lot of magical pathways going on!:p
    No, it isn't.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 673 ✭✭✭lighthouse


    Dapto,
    I think you have made your point and I appreciate it as I appreciate all the other people who have posted. Now I would appreciate it if you do not post anymore on this thread instead of the nitpicking you are going on with. Thanks in advance of your cooperation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 603 ✭✭✭dapto1


    I'm not "nitpicking", I'm responding to posts. And with all due respect, I don't think you can tell me where to post.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 673 ✭✭✭lighthouse


    I am not telling you. I am asking you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 603 ✭✭✭dapto1


    I'll post if I feel I have something to add, or if someone asks about something I've posted. If there's something I've said that's bothered you please let me know here or by PM, I'm not trying to cause offence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 673 ✭✭✭lighthouse


    I was only joking but your posts do seem to be upsetting people.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,398 ✭✭✭inisboffin


    In fairness we are all gone a little off topic here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,361 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    dapto1 wrote: »
    Or even having an actual physically possible mechanism by which reflexology is supposed to work? There is none.

    Just because we don't (yet) understand the actual mechanism by which it works doesn't mean there isn't a mechanism: good scientists know how little they really know, and are open to new knowledge and discoveries.

    As with vitamin C and physiotherapy, it's quite possible that there are characteristics which mean they're effective for some people but not others. We just don't have tests to work out who they're effective for (yet). If it was just placebo effect, I'd have expected the same from eccanacia (urg, bad spelling there!), but I don't have one.

    Re someone's question about quackery: I don't think that reflexology is any more morally repugnant than the fact that that doctors get paid even when they misdiagnose people or give advice that doesn't meet accepted standards. Eg, a friend of mine went to the GP with a pregnant woman who didn't have much English. The GP's instructions included drinking Guinness every day, to keep her iron levels up. Suffice to say that they found another GP - and that they still had to pay the initial incompetent one.

    It would be nice if we could apply strict science to all health services, but I'm afraid humans are just a bit too individual.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    dapto1 wrote: »
    Em, I'm going on empirical evidence. Not a crystal ball. But I hear crystals are really good for your "energy" as well, I know a guy who can hook you up with one for the low low price of €79.99!

    Where's the evidence that no one has ever benefited from some form of reflexology. According to you no one ever has, hence the crystal ball comment as seemingly you know everything. That is the attitude you are portraying here

    And then you reckon I want some crystals, I have already stated I am a cynic here but I am aware that what works for some won't work for others. You meanwhile are portraying the thought process of Homer Simpson here.



    dapto1 wrote: »
    Where have I said that? Actually, I said:

    "Best of luck with it man. Whatever decision you come to, I hope it works out for you."

    No here is what you said.
    dapto1 wrote: »
    No, I wouldn't. Because it doesn't work.

    So without ever trying something you say it doesn't work. That's narrow minded thinking


    dapto1 wrote: »
    "My" science articles? As much as I'd love to be published by some of those publications, I haven't been. And your statement shows a complete lack of understanding of the scientific method.

    Do I have to understand the scientific method as to how cancer treatment works etc for it to work, my arse I do.

    I was on about the articles you have posted here or seem so versed on, what do these science articles say about someone that goes for reflexology and gains a benefit for it.


    JustMary has explained it perfectly below, It doesn't matter a crap what it's called, what it does, how it does it etc. If it helps people that's all that matters
    JustMary wrote: »
    Just because we don't (yet) understand the actual mechanism by which it works doesn't mean there isn't a mechanism: good scientists know how little they really know, and are open to new knowledge and discoveries.

    As with vitamin C and physiotherapy, it's quite possible that there are characteristics which mean they're effective for some people but not others. We just don't have tests to work out who they're effective for (yet). If it was just placebo effect, I'd have expected the same from eccanacia (urg, bad spelling there!), but I don't have one.

    Re someone's question about quackery: I don't think that reflexology is any more morally repugnant than the fact that that doctors get paid even when they misdiagnose people or give advice that doesn't meet accepted standards. Eg, a friend of mine went to the GP with a pregnant woman who didn't have much English. The GP's instructions included drinking Guinness every day, to keep her iron levels up. Suffice to say that they found another GP - and that they still had to pay the initial incompetent one.

    It would be nice if we could apply strict science to all health services, but I'm afraid humans are just a bit too individual.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 603 ✭✭✭dapto1


    So without ever trying something you say it doesn't work. That's narrow minded thinking

    That's not logical. I've never tried to fly, because I know it doesn't work. You don't need a degree in anatomy (which I have) to know that the reasoning befind reflexology is completely made up bunkum.
    I was on about the articles you have posted here or seem so versed on, what do these science articles say about someone that goes for reflexology and gains a benefit for it.

    You obviously didn't read any of the sources I posted. Regression to the mean and confirmation bias account for people's belief that reflexology has worked for them. The placebo effect and the pleasant feeling of a foot massage also play a part.

    Sometimes people just get better, even when nothing is done. If someone goes for reflexology, and then gets better, they are likely to believe it was because of the reflexology. Think of it like this: if a footballer performs well in a match when he performs a certain pre-match ritual, he may believe the ritual caused the performance- not that he just happened to have a good game. That is correlation, not causation.

    Another example: A person has a non-permanent illness, either short term or medium term. They happen to go to a reflexologist just as their illness is at its worst in it's natural arc before the body's immune system deals with it. After, they begin to feel better (as they would have done anyway). Thus, they attribute their improvement to whatever happened right before they improved. Humans look for patterns wherever we can, even if it defies common sense or logic.

    With regards to JustMary's post, I'll respond to that in it's own right.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    Everyone knows that Humans can't fly, unless you're tripping.

    The same can't be said for alternative medicine, some people believe it works some don't. So you can't come along and say 100% that it doesn't work without trying it.



    Again you are making a load of presumptions in relation to the human body and the same could be said for what western medicine also achieves.


    Look I'm not saying reflexology works or doesn't work so we can go round in circles all you want,

    I am open to the idea that it may work for some people where you are straight out 100% adamant that it achieves absolutely nothing for no one. It's be easier to prove that God exists than what you are implying


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 603 ✭✭✭dapto1


    JustMary, you make some very fair points here.
    JustMary wrote: »
    Just because we don't (yet) understand the actual mechanism by which it works doesn't mean there isn't a mechanism: good scientists know how little they really know, and are open to new knowledge and discoveries.

    I absolutely agree with this. That is why claims made by reflexologists have been investigated numerous times. However, the evidence thus far shows no benefit to reflexology beyond placebo. And while there is a huge amount we certainly don't know about the human body, the peripheral nervous system is quite well understood. There has been no evidence found to substantiate the claims by William Fitzgerald (the founder of reflexology) that ten vertical bands of "bioelectric energy" run through the body in corrsepondence with the fingers and toes.

    JustMary wrote: »
    If it was just placebo effect, I'd have expected the same from eccanacia (urg, bad spelling there!), but I don't have one.

    Unfortunately the placebo effect is not as straightforward as that. For an excellent account of the placebo effect, highly recommend the book "Bad Science" by Dr. Ben Goldacre. A shorter introduction to the placebo can be found on the website I mentioned earlier, Skeptoid: http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4151

    For analysis of the effectiveness of the placebo effect, and it's misrepresentation I recommend: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM200105243442106

    and

    http://mrw.interscience.wiley.com/cochrane/clsysrev/articles/CD003974/frame.html

    JustMary wrote: »
    Re someone's question about quackery: I don't think that reflexology is any more morally repugnant than the fact that that doctors get paid even when they misdiagnose people or give advice that doesn't meet accepted standards. Eg, a friend of mine went to the GP with a pregnant woman who didn't have much English. The GP's instructions included drinking Guinness every day, to keep her iron levels up. Suffice to say that they found another GP - and that they still had to pay the initial incompetent one.

    There are certainly problems in the health service. People, as you say are individual. Unfortunately this means incompetent people can be found in every profession. But this does nothing to prove the effectiveness of reflexology.
    JustMary wrote: »
    It would be nice if we could apply strict science to all health services, but I'm afraid humans are just a bit too individual.

    I think you're confusing regulation and science, here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 603 ✭✭✭dapto1


    The same can't be said for alternative medicine, some people believe it works some don't. So you can't come along and say 100% that it doesn't work without trying it.

    Actually, I went for reflexology (and homeopathy, and acupuncture) for asthma and sinus problems when I was a teenager. They didn't work. But I haven't brought this up (only now because you have directly mentioned it) because I place a lot more trust in systematic analyses than anecdotal evidence.
    I am open to the idea that it may work for some people where you are straight out 100% adamant that it achieves absolutely nothing for no one. It's be easier to prove that God exists than what you are implying

    I'm not saying it achieves nothing for anyone. Foot massages feel nice, and they definitely could help in reducing stress. And that is completely harmless. If people want to pay for their fantasy, then they have every right to (and I don't mean that in a sarcastic or pejorative way whatsoever). The danger is that a desperate person, justifiably frustrated by their or their loved one's lack of progress, turns away from medical attention and tries to use pseudoscience. Brian Dunning put it well:

    This is the central risk of reflexology: that a believer, or even a naive victim, will turn to reflexology in the belief that it can treat an illness, at the expense of proper medical treatment. This delay of treatment can result in serious injury or death.

    And as I'm quoting him, here's another one which puts it well:

    There are an endless number of crazy, unsupported claims out there, and I'm not going to go try them all without hesitation (considering that it would bankrupt me; reflexology certainly isn't free). If there was a hypothesis behind reflexology, even some remote suggestion as to how or why it might have a medicinal effect, then it's something I'd be glad to take a look at. That's the problem with almost all of these quack quasi-medical schemes: None of them offer any hypothesis or explanation of exactly what they do or how they do it. Almost none: A lot of them say that it involves some form of "energy". Well, sorry; made-up definitions for scientific sounding words like "energy" do not constitute a hypothesis, and certainly not a theory. Present me with a claim behind reflexology that can be measured and tested, and I'll commit right now to trying it.


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