diesel?? what the hell has happened to the price

ivanthehunter

has the government put a stealth tax on diesel now that they will be a lot more popular with the tax laws.
Is this excessive pricing actually counter productive in terms of encouraging people to go with the most economical choice:mad::mad:

how is it that a fuel that once weighed in at 10 pence or 10 cents cheaper per liter is now 10 cent dearer in some areas:mad::mad:

That a 20% increase in dsl as petrol has stood relatively still

Max_Damage

Supply & demand. Simple economics. More and more people are buying diesel cars and thus the price of it goes up dramatically.

Vegetable oil for the win anyway.

Oilrig

Ivan,

Oil and its variants is a global business.

The global refinery capacity for diesel (vs petrol) is lower.

Demand goes up during winter months due to home heating - amongst others.

Supply vs Demand...

Tax levels, AFAIK are the same, at least Dick Turpin wore a mask...:mad:

old boy

yeah plus new regs coming into force next june/july

Guy:Incognito

What the hell is goign on with all the diesel price threads?

HJL

Max_Damage wrote: »

Vegetable oil for the win anyway.

+1
€2.04 for tesco oil in 3 litres, thats 0.69 per litre!

Although I heard via a UK forum that vegetable oil have gone up there, one poster said his local Tesco went from 56p per litre to £1.07 per litre.

Thats dearer than our diesel!

chris85

Its very simple economics. More people want to buy diesel lately and thus its more expensive. Everyone is very quick to blame a goverment who hae very little to do with it. They have a tax on it sure but we are one of the richest countries in the EU with a petrol price which is good compared to some other countries around. (germany is very expensive)

junkyard

This place is still a rip-off nation stemming from the morons running the place, the only solution to every problem according to them is to tax us or fine us, but when you see how they squander our money I suppose it's the easiest way to generate fast money.:mad:

Wishbone Ash

junkyard wrote: »

the morons running the place, the only solution to every problem according to them is to tax us

1. The 'morons' were elected democratically by the people.
2. We have some of the lowest tax rates in the developed world.

maidhc

chris85 wrote: »

Its very simple economics. More people want to buy diesel lately and thus its more expensive. Everyone is very quick to blame a goverment who hae very little to do with it. They have a tax on it sure but we are one of the richest countries in the EU with a petrol price which is good compared to some other countries around. (germany is very expensive)

I dont see how the extra few diesels in Ireland is making a difference one way or the other. Lets face it, Europe have had 40-50% diesels for years now, and last time I checked in Spain Diesel was still a good bit cheaper.

Someone is making bobs...

junkyard

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

1. The 'morons' were elected democratically by the people.
2. We have some of the lowest tax rates in the developed world.

Firstly, I didn't vote for them and I don't agree that we have some of the lowest tax rates in the developed world, we seem to have a lot of stealth taxes when you look at the bigger picture and these have been brought in when times were good and lots of people didn't notice them and now that the economy has hit a brick wall they're here to stay when many people can least afford them.

chris85

maidhc wrote: »

I dont see how the extra few diesels in Ireland is making a difference one way or the other. Lets face it, Europe have had 40-50% diesels for years now, and last time I checked in Spain Diesel was still a good bit cheaper.

Someone is making bobs...

As far as i can see there is an increase in diesels and the oil companies know this and have upped the price.

Spain also has a lower cost of living and average wage. You cant compare prices based on purely price but the actual buying power of the country. I can also argue that in germany the prices are around 30% dearer since i last checked and they are not far behind us in terms of buying power.

Bluetonic

Stekelly wrote: »

What the hell is goign on with all the diesel price threads?

+1

Diesel is the new fog lights.

HJL

Bluetonic wrote: »

Diesel is the new fog lights.

I'm waiting for the 'time to ban diesel' thread!!

JHMEG

Diesel has shot up here and it hasn't in other countries. It's the fuel companies and fuel stations in anticipation of the July VRT/motortax thing.

Related article here: http://www.aaireland.ie/news/article.asp?news_Id=442

Veg oil is still 69c a litre in Lidl.

@junkyard, you need to update your sig

conneem-TT

ivanthehunter wrote: »

Is this excessive pricing actually counter productive in terms of encouraging people to go with the most economical choice:mad::mad:

It' not really the most eco friendly though, a litre of diesel burned puts out ~2.7kg CO2 whereas a litre of petrol burned outputs ~2.3kg CO2.

So diesel put out 17% more CO2 per litre than petrol and thats how we buy it, by the litre.

But I can't see a reason for it's price to have jumped so much in the last month or so either, however I do see it coming down a bit around where I live.

demanufactured

Can you literaly just pour veg oil from a supermarket bottle straight into a diesel tank????

HJL

demanufactured wrote: »

Can you literaly just pour veg oil from a supermarket bottle straight into a diesel tank????

On certain cars yes, these being older indirect diesel injected.
Old mercs, 1.9D VWs for example

It would distroy most of the diesel cars on the road though, TDi's, HDI's etc,

JHMEG

All diesel cars can burn veg oil, even used. But a lot can't take veg oil directly (more modern ones) and need a conversion kit.

Common rail diesels are often cited as a problem but I've been in touch with a guy in England who had no problems running his Opel Meriva 1.7TD on filtered waste veg oil with no conversion. Tho he does admit it's a gamble and doesn't recommend it.

Steve

HJL wrote: »

+1
€2.04 for tesco oil in 3 litres, thats 0.69 per litre!

Although I heard via a UK forum that vegetable oil have gone up there, one poster said his local Tesco went from 56p per litre to £1.07 per litre.

Thats dearer than our diesel!

In the UK, they stopped using veg oil and chipper oil when they realised that they still had to pay excise duty on it before they could put it into a car. This meant it was no cheaper than regular diesel.

Is the same true here? dont know, I'd guess it is.

JHMEG

stevec wrote: »

In the UK, they stopped using veg oil and chipper oil when they realised that they still had to pay excise duty on it before they could put it into a car.

Not correct. Veg oil is not on the charter at all as is therefore exempt from duty. However if you are doing more than a set mileage a year you have to register and pay duty.

Biodiesel (which is different to veg oil) qualifies for a reduced rate: 28p per litre, vs 48p per litre for regular diesel.

Similarly in this country biodiesel is duty exempt, only incurring VAT. Veg oil is unregulated afaik, and you don't need to pay any duty.

r3nu4l

HJL wrote: »

+1
€2.04 for tesco oil in 3 litres, thats 0.69 per litre!

Although I heard via a UK forum that vegetable oil have gone up there, one poster said his local Tesco went from 56p per litre to £1.07 per litre.

Thats dearer than our diesel!

Ha, he must be buying his oil in Harrods

Current prices for TEsco vegetable oil
98p/litre
297p/3litre

CrispNDry is currently 125p/litre

Current UK diesel prices in East Anglia are averaging out at 115.9p/Litre
Petrol is currently veraging out at 108.9p/litre

Just FYI

Bee

ivanthehunter wrote: »

has the government put a stealth tax on diesel now that they will be a lot more popular with the tax laws.
Is this excessive pricing actually counter productive in terms of encouraging people to go with the most economical choice:mad::mad:

how is it that a fuel that once weighed in at 10 pence or 10 cents cheaper per liter is now 10 cent dearer in some areas:mad::mad:

That a 20% increase in dsl as petrol has stood relatively still

Blame John $uckwit Gormless of the Green Loony (we love Bertie) party

The excise duty per litre on diesel is 9 cents less than on petrol so apart from the rip-off price the Garage is creaming even more because to them it is lower taxed. Of course Gormless knew this was coming so he could have had a word with Biffo Cowen to keep the punters happy but as soon as he got a new Ministerial Merc under his butt he was happy to screw you in the name of the Environment...Amen

I hope the truckers bring the nation to halt soon over the price

JHMEG

r3nu4l wrote: »

CrispNDry is currently 125p/litre

Do you have Lidl (or Aldi) in Cambridge?

Steve

JHMEG wrote: »

Not correct. Veg oil is not on the charter at all as is therefore exempt from duty. However if you are doing more than a set mileage a year you have to register and pay duty. Biodiesel qualifies for a reduced rate: 28p per litre, vs 48p per litre for regular diesel.

Similarly in this country biodiesel is duty exempt, only incurring VAT.

I thought biodiesel = veg oil

therefore there was some duty??? (in UK)

I'm not arguing, I really don't know and am interested.

JHMEG

Bee wrote: »

I hope the truckers bring the nation to halt soon over the price

I hope the truckers start buying their fuel from Lidl...

JHMEG

stevec wrote: »

I thought biodiesel = veg oil

No.

Veg oil = veg oil... there are 2 types, SVO (straight, ie new and clean) and WVO (waste, ie old chip oil). Using them in your car is not officially sanctioned by the manufacturer.

OTOH, biodiesel can be made from anything including dead cats, and is a regulated industry with standards, a bit like bio-ethanol with E95 etc. Particular blends of regualr and bio-diesel are sanctioned by most manufacturers, as with bio-ethanol where all cars since 1990 have to take E10 at a minimum.

Steve

JHMEG wrote: »

No.

Veg oil = veg oil... there are 2 types, SVO (straight, ie new and clean) and WVO (waste, ie old chip oil). Using them in your car is not officially sanctioned by the manufacturer.

OTOH, biodiesel can be made from anything including dead cats, and is a regulated industry with standards, a bit like bio-ethanol with E95 etc. Particular blends of regualr and bio-diesel are sanctioned by most manufacturers, as with bio-ethanol where all cars since 1990 have to take E10 at a minimum.

Thanks for that:)

101 uses for a dead cat just got promoted to 102:D

E95 FTW - my JDM seems to love it so far - I've only recently converted to it and there is a difference.

HJL

JHMEG wrote: »

Similarly in this country biodiesel is duty exempt, only incurring VAT. Veg oil is unregulated afaik, and you don't need to pay any duty.

How sure are you of this?

In the UK its very simple, you can use 2500 litres of veg oil a year duty free, anything over that has to be declared. And seen as there is no way of knowing if one were to use 1000 litres or 5000 litres it doesnt make a difference what the figure is really!

But for here i couldnt find any info at all, ive started to put a few litres of straight veg oil into my tank [going grand btw] more as an experiment really, but was concerned if i were to be dipped by the customs.
Its kind of a grey area really.
Ive read somewhere on the net that you have to by law delclare what you used throughout the year and pay duty on whatever amount of litres you used. But I dont know how accurate this is.

maidhc

chris85 wrote: »

As far as i can see there is an increase in diesels and the oil companies know this and have upped the price.

Spain also has a lower cost of living and average wage. You cant compare prices based on purely price but the actual buying power of the country. I can also argue that in germany the prices are around 30% dearer since i last checked and they are not far behind us in terms of buying power.

There isn't that much of an increase in diesels!

Diesel in Spain is significantly cheaper than petrol (where most cars are diesel), Diesel in Germany was also significatly cheaper than petrol (where most cars are diesel), although the position in Germany n may have changed in the past few months as it is awhile since i have been there.

Wishbone Ash

Bee wrote: »

Blame John $uckwit Gormless of the Green Loony (we love Bertie) party.... .......... but as soon as he got a new Ministerial Merc under his butt he was happy to screw you in the name of the Environment

John Gormley's Ministerial car is a Toyota Prius and he cycles as much as possible.

DublinWriter

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

2. We have some of the lowest tax rates in the developed world.

Complete BS.

We're paying nearly 80% Excise Duty and 21% VAT on a litre for road diesel.

Where are these low taxes you speak of?

r3nu4l

JHMEG wrote: »

Do you have Lidl (or Aldi) in Cambridge?

We do but I was making the point that both diesel and vegetable oil are more expensive over here than in Ireland and that the price quoted for veg oil in the UK was either wrong or from a more expensive store

Diesel has been more expensive than petrol in the UK for a long, long time now and both petrol and diesel are more expensive than in Ireland. So while we have lower vehicle registration rates we pay for it through the nose at the pumps!! Governments get you either way, the sooner we realise that the better

maidhc

DublinWriter wrote: »

Complete BS.

We're paying nearly 80% Excise Duty and 21% VAT on a litre for road diesel.

Where are these low taxes you speak of?

Well aside for the US and oil rich nations our taxes on fuel aren't too bad.

Futhermore there is more to taxation than fuel!

Wishbone Ash

DublinWriter wrote: »

Where are these low taxes you speak of?

Would you prefer lower excise duty and raise the upper income tax rates back up to 48% and 65%?

Our fuel prices are among the lowest in Europe. The monthly Truck/Haulage magazines publish the prices each month and we are always near the bottom.

chris85

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Would you prefer lower excise duty and raise the upper income tax rates back up to 48% and 65%?

Our fuel prices are among the lowest in Europe. The monthly Truck/Haulage magazines publish the prices each month and we are always near the bottom.

That was the point i was making but you put it much clearer. We are one of the cheapest in the EU and we also have more money than many countries in the EU.

vibe666

I'd just like to point out that anyone who reads this and just throws 50 litres of veg oil in their diesel without doing LOTS of research first is quite likely to end up with a large repair bill.

a very large percentage of post 1997 cars won't run properly long term on veg oil, and a lot of them won't run at all.

running on a veg oil blend is much better suited to older vehicles, but still requires lots of research before you start.

my best advice is READ READ READ before you do anything and be 100% sure you know as much about running your particular vehicle on veg oil as it's possible to know.

The same goes for bio-diesel too. as has been said, most manufacturers have published information on bio-diesel blends they deem safe for use in their vehicles. these are labelled with either the letter E or B followed by a number which corresponds to a percentage of bio-diesel mixed with regular diesel, e.g. B30 or E30 is 30% bio, 70% petroleum diesel etc.

plenty of old cars (but again, not all) will run happily for the rest of their natural lives on 100% bio-diesel but others wouldn't make it off the forecourt. I use 100% bio-diesel in my 1996 Pajero and have done so for the past month without any problems, but don't take that as gospel that someone elses 96 Paj will work too without checking into it in a lot of detail first.

in my many trips to fill up at my local BD supplier I've talked to him about the stuff and he had a friend with a new 5 series BMW who maintained that his motor would run fine on 100% BD and got him to fill it to the brim. unfortunately the engine management system disagreed with him and shut the car down before he got to the end of the street and they had to drain the tank and flush everything out to get it running again.

on the other end of the scale, I've talked to someone who ran his knackered old 89 diesel astra on 100% SVO for many years without anything more than a cursory oil/filter change.

so, just make sure you read everything you can find on the subject and check out the many bio-diesel and svo/wvo forums out there before you do anything your wallet might live to regret.

JHMEG

HJL wrote: »

How sure are you of this?

No mention in legislation, well none that I can find.

I did mention in a previous post about veg oil in the UK.

@r3nu4l, you might just price a litre of veg oil in Lidl over there and let us know. It's 69c here.

ivanthehunter

Aldi at 69 cent....
Will the tax man be after me in an old 205 xrad:rolleyes:

maidhc

JHMEG wrote: »

Similarly in this country biodiesel is duty exempt, only incurring VAT. Veg oil is unregulated afaik, and you don't need to pay any duty.

No, the legislation in Ireland is worded so that specific classes of vehicles must burn fuel that is duty paid. Biodiesel is not duty exempt as such (or at least it wasn't up to recently), there is just a derogation for certain official suppliers.

D3UC3 J3

The prices are controlled by the petrol companies.

Govt make an acceptable level of tax from it (in the comparative to any other good / service sense ).

Petrol stations make little more than a few percent (some are licensees for the petrol companies and some are petrol company owned and run though).

The rest is the petrol company.

Times are hard in the industry and the market in ireland is relitively small (Irelands fuel market is the same size as the market of the Birmingham greater area in the uk), big players are getting out of the market because it so tight here at the moment (Statoil & Chevron Texaco) and only one person will pay for it, the consumer.

What do you expect in an oligopoly with a similar product?

JHMEG

maidhc wrote: »

Biodiesel is not duty exempt as such (or at least it wasn't up to recently), there is just a derogation for certain official suppliers.

Thanks for clearing that up maidhc (even tho it means the same thing in the end!;))

Veg oil, being a food, is not legislated for as a fuel, afaik?

maidhc

JHMEG wrote: »

Veg oil, being a food, is not legislated for as a fuel, afaik?

unfortunately not if it goes in the tank and burns it is a fuel:

Per the Finance Act 1999:

“mineral oil” means hydrocarbon oil, liquefied petroleum gas, substitute fuel and additives;

and it is an offence to:

(b) to use as a propellant, to sell or deliver for such use or keep in a fuel tank—


(i) any mineral oil on which mineral oil tax at the appropriate standard rate has not been paid,


(ii) any mineral oil containing one or more markers prescribed by regulations under section 104 , or


(iii) any substance where the importation of mineral oil containing such substance is prohibited by regulation made under section 104 ,

Gonkster

FAO the OP, diesel now costs more due to a new refining process to comply with new "green standards"- reducing sulphur content etc. That and a few other issues....

http://www.petrolprices.com/why-diesel-costs-more-than-petrol.html

I'm actually buying a (nearly new) fiat panda diesel shortly, it's only 2 years old yet it's actually going to be cheaper to buy and run than my old banger...crazy world isn't it?
I normally used to simply buy an old car and drive it until it broke then went and got another cheap banger. My old car is costing me €600 a month to drive the 60 odd miles into work each day. The panda will cost me €180 a month to buy and €200 per month for fuel on the same mileage!

Our fixation with the "petrodollar" and the yanks behaviour at the moment is having quite a large knock-on effect worldwide.

You'd think that market demand would have resulted in a car that ran on something other than petrol or diesel by now....

JHMEG

Gonkster wrote: »

http://www.petrolprices.com/why-diesel-costs-more-than-petrol.html

That link isn't working for me...

Gonkster

Hmm the link works fine for me, try copy/pasting it.
stick www in front of this- petrolprices.com/why-diesel-costs-more-than-petrol.html

JHMEG

It's working now thanks. Their server must have been down or something.

Supercell

The main crux of that link though seems to be the increased duty on diesel in the UK which is the reverse here.
I think we are simply being ripped off as this disparity only went for a few cents either way to 10+ cents after the "green" tax changes were announced.

JHMEG

Supercell wrote: »

The main crux of that link though seems to be the increased duty on diesel in the UK which is the reverse here.
I think we are simply being ripped off as this disparity only went for a few cents either way to 10+ cents after the "green" tax changes were announced.

Haven't had a chance to read it yet, but saw mention of tax on diesel, which has always been higher in the UK than on petrol. For years diesel has been more expensive there, by maybe 1-2p.

E92

Diesel deserves to be dearer. Every litre of diesel burned pollutes 13% more CO2 than every litre of petrol, and that's before we get to all the other pollutants that diesel is still not as good as petrol is.

E92

E92 wrote: »

Diesel deserves to be dearer. Every litre of diesel burned pollutes 13% more CO2 than every litre of petrol, and that's before we get to all the other pollutants that diesel is still not as good as petrol is.

Not according to this:

http://www.ace.mmu.ac.uk/Resources/Fact_Sheets/Key_Stage_4/Air_Pollution/26.html

petrol cars with catalysts still produce more CO and HC than diesel cars, although exhaust emissions of NOx and particulates are much lower than diesel cars. In fact particulate emissions from petrol cars are so low that they are not routinely measured.


Despite much debate over which car, petrol or diesel, is cleaner, weighing up the advantages and disadvantages is not easy. For example, diesel cars have been promoted, as they produce less CO and HC on average when compared to petrol cars, and they have greater fuel economy producing less CO2 per km. However recent health concerns about particulate matter have given diesels a less environmentally-friendly image, as have the higher emissions of nitrogen oxides compared with petrol cars. As a comparison, petrol cars produce virtually no particulate matter, take longer to warm up, produce more carbon dioxide per mile on average, and emissions of the regulated pollutants are higher.