Red squirrel conservation efforts boosted

magicbastarder

Efforts to save Ireland’s red squirrel population have been boosted by the success of a new pilot project.

A community of the endangered species, threatened by the spread of the North American grey squirrel, has been successfully settled in Co Mayo.

Experts who last year placed five red squirrels in Belleek Woods outside Ballina, where there is no competition from greys, have confirmed the new arrivals have now started to breed.

Ireland's National Parks and Wildlife Service (NPWS), which started the project in 2007, will work with the Environment and Heritage Service [EHS] in the North, to protect Ireland’s red squirrel population.

A survey carried out in 2007 showed that the grey squirrel is now found in 26 out of Ireland’s 32 counties. Mayo is one of the last grey squirrel-free zones.

Environment Minister John Gormley visited the wildlife project today and praised its success.

“The Red Squirrel is one of Ireland’s most endangered mammals,” he said.

“It is declining at about 1 per cent per annum, so I am particularly pleased to see how well this pilot project is working.”

Transferring red squirrels to safe areas where the greys are not prevalent is one of the conservation actions being investigated as a possible tool to secure the future of the species in Ireland.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhojojsnsncw/

donalglackin

thats good to hear. ive often seen red squirrels in annes park i think theres only one or two there theres loads of grey squirrels though.

dogmatix

But I thought areas west of the shannon where already grey squirrel free. So why would they need to protect the reds in Mayo? Would have been better trying to curb grey numbers in the east and reintroduce the reds there?

gerky

dogmatix wrote: »

But I thought areas west of the shannon where already grey squirrel free. So why would they need to protect the reds in Mayo? Would have been better trying to curb grey numbers in the east and reintroduce the reds there?

They have made it to the some part of the west already, and afaik there aren't any reds in belleek so their trying to get good healthy populations in places where there are no greys and no competition.

I actually thought they had intended relocating 12 to belleek but anyway this is one of several test projects being tried to halt their decline.

artieanna

I am delighted to hear this as I have never seen a squirrel in the west of Ireland.

magicbastarder

there's a book called the wild gourmets available which is about living off the land, which goes into the fineries of hunting and cooking grey squirrels. and comes with a stern warning to leave the reds alone.

dogmatix

magicbastarder wrote: »

there's a book called the wild gourmets available which is about living off the land, which goes into the fineries of hunting and cooking grey squirrels. and comes with a stern warning to leave the reds alone.

+1.

And you can still see Red Squirrels in certain parts of wicklow, espically around Glenmalure.

It wasn't me!

Plenty of lads who spend the off season controlling vermin will dedicate a decent bit of their time to culling grey squirrels along with the rest. Great to hear of reintroductions, but there needs to be more energy put into the heavy control of grey squirrel numbers for it to have any sustained effect, in my opinion. I can remember seeing red squirrels in a forest by my house years ago, think they're all gone now, but the greys have sprung up like crazy. Chap who owns it is less than friendly though, so getting shooting permission would be no easy task, which is a shame. Apparently grey squirrel is tasty enough in a stew.

magicbastarder

best thing to hunt greys, according to the book i mentioned above, is an air rifle.

It wasn't me!

Air rifle is grand, but shotgun is equally good. Can fire upwards and get through any slight foliage, better killing tool in the trees tbh, though can often be easier to get multiple squirrels faster with an air rifle obviously. Both are excellent tools though.

boneless

Without being too heavy lads, can I remind you this is the Nature an Birdwatching forum, not the Hunting one...:D

But thanks for the information on squirrel stew....:)

It wasn't me!

boneless wrote: »

Without being too heavy lads, can I remind you this is the Nature an Birdwatching forum, not the Hunting one...:D

But thanks for the information on squirrel stew....:)

No worries, while it's about conservation and control, optimal tools might have been best discussed elsewhere.

boneless

It wasn't me! wrote: »

No worries, while it's about conservation and control, optimal tools might have been best discussed elsewhere.

No harm done lads. Thanks for the input as well.

stevoman

plenty of reds around laois im happy to say. a lovely creature. i shot five greys so far this year so my conservation efforts are working!

It wasn't me!

I don't think there are any left where I am. Still doesn't mean the little grey blighters are safe...

dodgyme

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1041597/Pioneering-project-sees-red-squirrels-make-astonishing-comeback.html

Interesting article on reds and possible comeback

lightening

dogmatix wrote: »

But I thought areas west of the shannon where already grey squirrel free.

They were originally released in the Midlands weren't they? A birthday present in Longford from what I can gather. I wonder why they went East much more successfully than the West. Warmer climate, did they travel on cargo trains or trucks, bright lights, coke and hookers...

It wasn't me!

I saw a red squirrel near my place while out driving a while ago. Was a bloody satisfying sight I must say, been years since I last saw one. The chap who owns the local forest won't let anyone in to shoot though, or I'd be doing some sterling work. Anyone want grey squirrel mittens?

magicbastarder

dodgyme wrote: »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1041597/Pioneering-project-sees-red-squirrels-make-astonishing-comeback.html

Interesting article on reds and possible comeback

more good news:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7573535.stm

Blue850

Holy thread resurrection Batman but this little guy has taken up residence behind our garden and eats every day at the feeder:)
Theres 2 of them but they fight over the food.

It wasn't me!

Great photos, lovely to see.

artieanna

Thats brilliant lovely to see a few squirrels settling in the west...

Thanks for the pics blue850

I wonder how are the squirrels getting on in the Belleek wood in Ballina???

Anyone here know how that project going?

Jim Martin

Interesting item on BBC Countryfile prog yesterday about black squirrels, apparently same problems as with greys - spreading pox to reds:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00jf6lp/Countryfile_22_03_2009/

Jim Martin

Sorry, forgot to mention - 35.10 mins into prog!

lightening

They have started culling in St. Annes Park in Raheny in Dublin. They have traps set up. They have their work cut out though!!

bobbytwo

Are there grey squirrels in the south? In all the years that I have lived here in Cork, I have never seen a grey gladly. I am lucky to say that I see the reds quite often, even had one in trees in my garden once. Such lovely animals.

Jim Martin

They are supposed to be heading west but haven't crossed the Shannon - yet! But how far south they've got, I'm afraid I don't know.

Blue850

Just a little update on our colony:), we have 3 Reds in the back garden now, looks like a mother and 2 cubs.

Connacht

Saw one of the most wonderful nature sights of my life recently when out walking in Mayo (not near Belleek Woods, Ballina), when I came across a mother red squirrel moving her young by mouth.
She noticed me looking at her and froze for a minute or more under a tree, with the young in her mouth, before moving on when I didn't budge myself. I had a great view. She eventually crossed the forest track I was crouched down on and I was able to see her shuffling in the undergrowth for another minute or two. Fabulous. Beautiful little creatures.

recedite

Jim Martin wrote: »

Interesting item on BBC Countryfile prog yesterday about black squirrels, apparently same problems as with greys - spreading pox to reds:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00jf6lp/Countryfile_22_03_2009/

BBC i player is unfortunately not available to people in the Republic. I would like to know what a Black Squirrel is though.:) A recent introduction from the Southern Hemisphere? Also the "native" squirrels became extinct 200 years ago. So why do people hate American grey squirrels but love the British red ones? I don't understand this animal xenophobia.
The red squirrel is believed to have been present in Ireland since the end of the last Ice Age. During the 1700s it is thought to have become extinct in Ireland; whether this was due to disease, hunting or loss of habitat, is not known. During the early 1800s, red squirrels were reintroduced to Ireland from Britain and by the early 1900s were present in all counties in Ireland, both north and south. The population continued to increase for a short time, then began to decline rapidly across the British Isles – possibly due to disease.
source;

http://www.habitas.org.uk/priority/species.asp?item=5108

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Black Squirrels are a melanistic variety of the eastern Grey Squirrel, individual Black Squirrels can exist wherever Grey Squirrels live. Grey mating pairs may produce Black offspring, and mixed litters are common where Black Squirrel exist. They were very common in the area of Mid West USA that I visited 2 years ago.

The Red is a Native species. Re-introduction does not eliminate Native status. Will our Golden Eagles never be native Irish birds in your view? Will the Red Kiles (hopefully) in years to come still be British in your eyes? Re-introduction of a species lost due to human interference is legitimate. To equate the American Eastern Grey Squirrel with the Eurasian Red Squirrel, on the alien species front, is taking a very narrow view of ecology.

As for the Grey Squirrel. It is clearly an alien species. It is detrimental to not only the Native Red Squirrel but our flora as well.

Dusty87

Srameen, how much of a threat do they pose to songbirds. Iv read in a few magazines that they rob eggs and sometimes young. I think the english birdwatch crowd (RSBP, RSPB cant think of correct one) carried out a study agreeing wit that.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Gray squirrels eat a range of foods such as tree bark (doing huge damage in places), many types of seeds and acorns, walnuts, and other nuts, and some types of fungi found in the woods.

When its usual food source is scarce (usually in Summer) they have been known to prey upon insects, frogs, small rodents, including other squirrels, and small birds, their eggs and young.

However, the Red is no saint in this regard. The Red Squirrel eats mostly the seeds of trees, (neatly stripping conifer cones to get at the seeds within) fungi, nuts (especially Hazelnuts Beech and Chestnuts), berries, some young shoots, but bird eggs have also been known to be taken.

recedite

Kali Sparse Waiter wrote: »

The Red is a Native species. Re-introduction does not eliminate Native status. Will our Golden Eagles never be native Irish birds in your view? Will the Red Kiles (hopefully) in years to come still be British in your eyes? Re-introduction of a species lost due to human interference is legitimate. To equate the American Eastern Grey Squirrel with the Eurasian Red Squirrel, on the alien species front, is taking a very narrow view of ecology.

As for the Grey Squirrel. It is clearly an alien species. It is detrimental to not only the Native Red Squirrel but our flora as well.

Taking an ultra wide view, the geology of the northwest of Ireland shows that it was once part of the land mass that is now North America. Over the aeons different species come and go, with or without human interference. Personally I don't care whether any of these animals are native or not, because I recognise the concept of "nativeness"to be an artificial construct.

recedite

Dusty87 wrote: »

how much of a threat do they pose to songbirds. Iv read in a few magazines that they rob eggs and sometimes young.

Pine martens are even better at that; perhaps we should kill them all?
But wait, many of the cute little songbirds are migrants, and even the ones that overwinter here nowadays most probably baled out for warmer climes during the Ice Age. So if the Pine Marten is more native, then it must be more saintly? Better protect them instead.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

recedite wrote: »

Taking an ultra wide view, the geology of the northwest of Ireland shows that it was once part of the land mass that is now North America. Personally I don't care whether any of these animals are native or not, because I recognise the concept of "nativeness"to be an artificial construct.

It's impossible to have a decent discussion if someone is being deliberately facetious. Grey or Red Squirrel species did not exist when our continents were joined. Your dismissal of "Native" as being artificial is the type of attitude that has led to wildlife disasters in many parts of the world. To each his own but please look at the consequences of what you preach. I find it quite amazing that anybody with an interest in Nature (as a whole) does not accept the notion, or risk, of alien species be they Mammals, Shellfish, or Plants.

recedite wrote: »

Pine martens are even better at that; perhaps we should kill them all?
But wait, many of the cute little songbirds are migrants, and even the ones that overwinter here nowadays most probably baled out for warmer climes during the Ice Age. So if the Pine Marten is more native, then it must be more saintly? Better protect them instead.

You are twisting the simple question of whether Squirrels take eggs. Nobody said that was a reason to kill anything. You are also confusing migrant species with alien species.

Birdnuts

Kali Sparse Waiter wrote: »

It's impossible to have a decent discussion if someone is being deliberately facetious. Grey or Red Squirrel species did not exist when our continents were joined. Your dismissal of "Native" as being artificial is the type of attitude that has led to wildlife disasters in many parts of the world. To each his own but please look at the consequences of what you preach. I find it quite amazing that anybody with an interest in Nature (as a whole) does not accept the notion, or risk, of alien species be they Mammals, Shellfish, or Plants.


.

Indeed - the devastation inflicted by alien species on the flora and fauna of islands like New Zealand, Hawaii and Madasgar is proof enough of that:(

recedite

Birdnuts wrote: »

Indeed - the devastation inflicted by alien species on the flora and fauna of islands like New Zealand, Hawaii and Madasgar is proof enough of that:(

True, but there are two separate issues here.
1 Whether a species is native.
2 How well a species will fit into the existing ecosystem.

If you can't predict the answer to the second question, you shouldn't introduce.
The Normans introduced rabbits and pheasants here for food. Frogs were introduced here by students at TCD. No problems there.
White Egrets have recently introduced themselves; again no problems have arisen.

Dusty87

recedite wrote: »

Pine martens are even better at that; perhaps we should kill them all?
But wait, many of the cute little songbirds are migrants, and even the ones that overwinter here nowadays most probably baled out for warmer climes during the Ice Age. So if the Pine Marten is more native, then it must be more saintly? Better protect them instead.

I know pine martins do. I asked about Squirrels. I never mentioned killing anything, or anything about native or non native species.

Anyway, since you brought up pine martins, i think the fact that they are a lot more rarer than grey squirrels, they dont pose as much a threat.

Feargal as Luimneach

recedite wrote: »

True, but there are two separate issues here.
1 Whether a species is native.
2 How well a species will fit into the existing ecosystem.

If you can't predict the answer to the second question, you shouldn't introduce.
The Normans introduced rabbits and pheasants here for food. Frogs were introduced here by students at TCD. No problems there.
White Egrets have recently introduced themselves; again no problems have arisen.

Recent studies have shown that our frogs are infact a mixture of native fogs that survived the ice age and introduced frogs.
http://www.zsl.org/science/news/irish-frogs-may-have-survived-ice-age,568,NS.html

Pheasants are introduced and are not entirely harmless. On Tory island the population increase might be having some cause in the decrease on the numbers of corncrakes there.
White egrets, you mean Little egrets. (sorry for being pedantic)

LostCovey

recedite wrote: »

But wait, many of the cute little songbirds are migrants, and even the ones that overwinter here nowadays most probably baled out for warmer climes during the Ice Age. So if the Pine Marten is more native, then it must be more saintly? Better protect them instead.

Recedite,

This is nonsense, and if it is meant to be humorous, I don't get the joke.

What on earth were you trying to say?

LostCovey

recedite

LostCovey wrote: »

What on earth were you trying to say?

I was just trying to point out the hypocrisy of persecuting an animal because of its perceived bad behaviour towards another species. There are people who kill magpies and squirrels because these are known to eat the eggs and nestlings of songbirds.
Other people take on the role of wildlife vigilantes where they set out to persecute a particular species because they see it as non-native. Again, who are we to judge?
I was also trying to point out that animals, like people, come and go throughout history, so in deciding who is native and who is not, where do you draw the line?

I would imagine that the various species of newts and the common toad that they have in Wales would fit in here very well alongside the frogs we have. Woodpeckers have recently flown over and Red Kites have been "reintroduced" from Wales, but the crawling creatures will take longer to get here. Adders would presumably fit in well, but would be more controversial, given the St Patrick legend, and their nasty bite.
I fully appreciate that in the case of the Grey Squirrel there are issues in relation to tree damage and displacement of the Reds.
However Reds are known to do better than Greys in coniferous woodland. And people in the USA do not seem too worried about losing all their trees to the dreaded Grey Squirrels.

LostCovey

recedite wrote: »

I was just trying to point out the hypocrisy of persecuting an animal because of its perceived bad behaviour towards another species. There are people who kill magpies and squirrels because these are known to eat the eggs and nestlings of songbirds.
Other people take on the role of wildlife vigilantes where they set out to persecute a particular species because they see it as non-native. Again, who are we to judge?
I was also trying to point out that animals, like people, come and go throughout history, so in deciding who is native and who is not, where do you draw the line?

I would imagine that the various species of newts and the common toad that they have in Wales would fit in here very well alongside the frogs we have. Woodpeckers have recently flown over and Red Kites have been "reintroduced" from Wales, but the crawling creatures will take longer to get here. Adders would presumably fit in well, but would be more controversial, given the St Patrick legend, and their nasty bite.
I fully appreciate that in the case of the Grey Squirrel there are issues in relation to tree damage and displacement of the Reds.
However Reds are known to do better than Greys in coniferous woodland. And people in the USA do not seem too worried about losing all their trees to the dreaded Grey Squirrels.

OK I think I understand it now but I don't totally agree with it.

Having said that at least you are consistent. You are saying that the introduction of one species, even if historical, means it is legitimate to introduce any species?

I think in terms of global biodiversity this is a flawed approach. Having said that I admit there is a contradiction between supporting the introduction of Norwegian Eagles, as I do, but saying American Mink are vermin, as I do.

I plead guilty to inconsistency. I think however that there will be no impact on biodiversity from restoring a breeding population of Sea Eagles, but it is clear that the mink's arrival has had a disastrous impact.

I sometimes shoot magpies too (is that so wrong?). And as for feral cats..........

LostCovey

LostCovey

recedite

LostCovey wrote: »

You are saying that the introduction of one species, even if historical, means it is legitimate to introduce any species?

If they fit well into the existing ecosystem. The eagles and the egrets do fit in and enhance the environment, but the mink cause problems. Wolves and bears would also cause problems today, even though they could be classed as native. Elk might be interesting to introduce.
When you say historical, what point in history would you use as the cut off point for the arrival of a native species?

In regard to the magpies, you are a predator of magpies and cats just as they are of songbirds. Its not wrong as long as you eat your prey.

Kalahari

The main issue with introduced species is if there is a negative impact on other species. There's quite a few introduced species which do little harm and therefore aren't considered pests. The bank vole was introduced fairly recently but if anything they are just taking predation pressure off of other rodents so they don't really need to be controlled. But since the grey squirrel is undeniably the leading cause of red decline, then action has to be taken, especially since the problem was caused by humans. Take zebra mussels for example, also introduced by humans and they are likely going to cause local (if not countrywide) extinctions of dozens of fish and invert species, some of which are glacial relicts unique to this island and found nowhere else in the world. If people just shrugged and said they have as much right to be here as other species, then we'd be letting lake and river ecosystems change drastically and not fight the possibility of losing other species forever.

Nativeness is not artificial, it means species which came to be here in a natural manner, either by having ancestors which also lived here, and gave rise to generations which adapted to the changing landscapes to fit best into the niche, or by arriving naturally at a later stage, such as the woodpeckers in wicklow, and numerous bat species. Even though they arrived later, by finding their own way over and breeding successfully they technically then become native in their own right.

Persecution of non native species is indeed for us to judge, as it is our species who brought them here, completely unnaturally. It isn't fair at all to the individuals who are killed in attempting to right the wrong, but it is more harmful to do nothing. Reds do better than greys in coniferous woodland yes, but most of our woodlands are mixed, and less than 20% (I think ~14%) broadleaved trees give greys a big advantage over reds in mixed woodlands as well. It is really only in the big coniferous woodlands particularly in the west where reds stand a chance of keeping a large stable population.

As for bark stripping in the US, apparently they don't do it half as much over there. It may be that there is something missing from their natural diet here compared to their native american woodlands, or else the learned behaviour caught on more here. Who knows, but they can often damage more than a third of trees in forests here where they are in high densities so it is a big problem.

LostCovey

recedite wrote: »

In regard to the magpies, you are a predator of magpies and cats just as they are of songbirds. Its not wrong as long as you eat your prey.

Well that's bad news.

The Magpies and cats won't be too bad, with a good marinade, and a nice red from LIDL.

It's just the thought of eating all those mice, rats, bluebottles, fleas and lice that I have wastefully slaughtered over the years......

LostCovey

recedite

Kalahari wrote: »

Nativeness is not artificial, it means species which came to be here in a natural manner, either by having ancestors which also lived here, and gave rise to generations which adapted to the changing landscapes to fit best into the niche, or by arriving naturally at a later stage, such as the woodpeckers in wicklow, and numerous bat species. Even though they arrived later, by finding their own way over and breeding successfully they technically then become native in their own right.

Persecution of non native species is indeed for us to judge, as it is our species who brought them here, completely unnaturally.

I agree with most of what you say, but the argument in the quote above does not stand up. You are suggesting that woodpeckers that arrived last year are native, but rabbits and pheasants are not because they were introduced by man. The zebra mussels were not deliberately introduced; they got here by clinging to the underside of boats, and there are also Japanese crabs on the move in Europe using ships to get around. This is more or less the normal method for mammals and reptiles to colonise islands, except that usually they are thought to have clung onto floating logs or other storm debris.The technique is perfectly natural. Otherwise only flying creatures would live on islands.
So we get back to my point; the reason the Grey squirrels may arguably need to be controlled, but the introduced voles do not is because of their effect on the ecosystem. It's not because of their lack of nativeness.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

For for a point of correctness: the Woodpeckers you refer to (I take it you mean the Great Spotted Woodpecker) are not a new species to Ireland. This is a re-colonisation. These birds were plentiful centuries ago and since their loss there has since then been a glaring ecological niche to be filled in our woodlands. The environment is now right for them to nest. And again to be clear, we have had these birds evey Winter, only now are our woodlands ready to allow them nest and breed as they did in Ireland in the past.

Barname

donalglackin wrote: »

thats good to hear. ive often seen red squirrels in annes park i think theres only one or two there theres loads of grey squirrels though.

it is incumbent on good citizens to kill the Greys

recedite

Kali Sparse Waiter wrote: »

the Woodpeckers you refer to (I take it you mean the Great Spotted Woodpecker) are not a new species to Ireland. This is a re-colonisation.

OK fair point, lets take the Bank Vole then, or the Collared Dove, both of which arrived in the 1950's or 1960's I think.
Kali Sparse Waiter, what point in history would you judge to be the cut-off point for the arrival of a species for it to be a native?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I think you are just arguing for the sake of it. :rolleyes: (Spoiling for a fight as my late Mother used to say) The Collared Dove is not an introduced species. The Collared doves had been recorded in Hungary in the 1930s, later on they spread to Austria, Germany and France. They also migrated to Netherlands and Denmark. In 1952 they were seen in England and in 1959 even in Ireland. It was not an introduced species.
Please remember this thread is about Red and Grey Squirrels. Grey Squirrels are introduced.
We were trying to discuss conservation of Red Squirrels!