Some clearence on the reloading issue???

Grizzly 45

Has anyone seen the letter in this months Irish Shooters Digest from a Garrett Byrne,PO of the DOJ,St Stephens Green Dublin2??

Have enclosed this in file format..

All i can say on this one is...You gotta wonder somtimes what color is the sky on the planet these people are on..:rolleyes:

foxshooter243

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Has anyone seen the letter in this months Irish Shooters Digest from a Garrett Byrne,PO of the DOJ,St Stephens Green Dublin2??

Have enclosed this in file format..

All i can say on this one is...You gotta wonder somtimes what color is the sky on the planet these people are on..:rolleyes:

"super loads"

johngalway

"...in certain circumstances..."

Well that says it all. Bah humbug.

Heads up their you know whats.

Mellor

A concern that criminal types might use reloading to create armour piercing or improved ballistic rounds is pretty piss weak.
Firstly, if they needed armour rounds then they could likely import anyway,
Secondly, if they did wish to reload (unlikely given that the knowledge is likely lacking) then I doubt that they would give a seconds thought to the legality of it.

chem

One interesting point on the explosives act is that there is NO mention of a minimum amount of explosive that can be stored without the use of a magazine and other items listed for storage of explosives.

What I mean is how come I can have a box of 50 .22 rounds containing cordite/nitrocellulose (an explosive substance under the law) and not need an explosive licence as by law I should have one.

I have said it before if the government makes it so hard for lawfull use of reloading it will go underground, and so make criminals out of people who would not normaly break the law.

The same laws apply for fireworks and we all know how well that works every halloween:p

Grizzly 45

Did anyone pick up in the contradiction in the letter???
One side they said there is significant risk of overloading resulting in risk of death or injury.Next paragraph they are saying criminals & Co could overload the shells to get maximum ballistic effect with AP rounds!!!
So if you are a criminal,the laws of physics dont apply to you in Ireland????Guess no other laws do either...:rolleyes:

I dont know where they get their info regarding finding it difficult to trace reloaded rounds at a crime scene. Jill Dando murder case springs to mind.
Any competant CSI tech will be able to tell you the difference between loaded and reloaded ammo.

High level of training...Sheesh somthing like 80 million plus Americans must be total idiots as they dont have any training in reloading,apart from people showing them how to,or watching a DVD.

BOHICA. Bend Over Here It Comes Again......:eek:

Sandy22

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

........... from a Garrett Byrne,PO of the DOJ,St Stephens Green Dublin2.............

Chairman of the FCP, I'm told.

Sparks

And the most progressive person we've ever seen in the DoJ.
I'd not yell too loud until they're actually discussing the reloading in the FCP - the main worry is training, and that's the point of the reloading licence.

rrpc

Could I make a suggestion here?

I know the square root of feck all about reloading, and I've been shooting for almost thirty years. I would assume that anyone in the department of justice would know the square root of what I know, so instead of throwing up the hands and bemoaning their 'presumed' ignorance, why don't the people who do know something about the subject address the points made in that article. In a polite and friendly manner of course

Maybe they don't read boards, but maybe they do

btw, I'll play the role of the DoJ to anyone who replies

Grizzly 45

There is plenty of people rrpc out there who could talk to them about this...However will they be listened to and will the FCP take it aboard???

How does a Joe Average get his point across to people like this??You can write letters,emails and phone till you are bankrupt. You might get a polite return letter ,
basiclly saying,[politely of course] your singular unimportant opinion has been noted,now sod off and let more intelligent burrocrats decide whats best for you and the rest of the sheep out there!!
I mean isnt this the job of our elected repersentatives of our various shooting bodies who are on this panel???to find this info out,disseminate it and counter propose??? We are paying them to do somthing aren't we??

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

There is plenty of people rrpc out there who could talk to them about this...However will they be listened to and will the FCP take it aboard???

How does a Joe Average get his point across to people like this??You can write letters,emails and phone till you are bankrupt. You might get a polite return letter ,

I made a suggestion for you (or anyone with the knowledge) to reply here to their points. Apart from educating those in the DoJ, I personally would like to know the answers (if there are any).

I mean isnt this the job of our elected repersentatives of our various shooting bodies who are on this panel???to find this info out,disseminate it and counter propose??? We are paying them to do somthing aren't we??

Who exactly are you paying Grizzly? AFAIK, pretty much every shooting association on the FCP is run by unpaid volunteers.

chem

Garrett Byrne 01 479 0221 (DOJ)

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200405/cmselect/cmniaf/548/4110331.htm

Number posted on public site listed above:)

Grizzly 45

NARGC perhaps????Belive Des C is on the board???

You Do pay a membership for your club/ organisation so whoever they sent or elected to the FCPmust be getting some sort of renmeration???

I can gladly answer some questions RR ,but it will take more than a few days to post this up and where to then with it??

Think you have the wrong link there Chem.... National comittee on inter cultural racisim in the UK???

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

NARGC perhaps????Belive Des C is on the board???

Des is full time right enough, but to be fair, the NARGC wouldn't run into the reloading issue that much.

You Do pay a membership for your club/ organisation so whoever they sent or elected to the FCPmust be getting some sort of renmeration???

I'm a member of the NTSA and the NASRC and I can tell you that no-one on those committees is paid a cent. The money is used to send people overseas for competitions, pay international affiliations, audit fees (that one particularly annoys me because there is no other choice for sporting bodies), coaching, prizes for national competitions and bank charges.

I just happened to have the NTSA accounts on my desk from the last AGM

I can gladly answer some questions RR ,but it will take more than a few days to post this up and where to then with it??

Lets start with the answers. Post them here and lets all debate them, have them properly assembled and I'll email them to the NTSA and SSAI reps. They may already know this stuff, but then again, there's no such thing as having too much information. :cool:

chem

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Think you have the wrong link there Chem.... National comittee on inter cultural racisim in the UK???

No look down the page his name and DOJ number is on it as a contact number

Know Racism was a three year public awareness programme which aimed to contribute to creating the conditions for building an inclusive and intercultural society in Ireland, where racism is addressed and cultural diversity is valued. Additional information is available on the campaign's website: www.knowracism.ie. A final evaluation of Know Racism is currently being conducted by Siobhan Lynam. The Equal Status Unit of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform would be able to provide you with additional detail about this evaluation, Garrett Byrne can he contacted on +353 (0)1 479 0221

Maybe he has changed departments???

Sparks

He came to the DoJ firearms department from the anti-racism programme chem.

Traumadoc

Has anyone been able to get through to this number?

Gunter Mauser

"Explode if confined Danger" Hmmmm. Cook Off more like a firework!

Confined in Shed Danger!

Lawn mower petrol stored in shed, not sealed properly. Hot summers day, vapour build up. Ignition accidentally triggered. Result no shed, localized dammage possibly fatal consequences.

Confined under the stairs!

Camping gas stored under the stairs after trip, slow gas leak not detected!
Result blow out! possible fire.

Confined home gas leak!

Gas cooker / fire leak, resulting in large amount of gas build up. Gas ignited.
Result, house / houses demolished, possible deaths, highly lightly.

Common sense used with any flammable dangerous / hazardous products along with following the manufactures instructions should be followed at all times.

Everything we do has some risk attached to it, from driving the car, deep frying chips the list is endless. Someone who reloads is someone who is serous about perfecting the ammunition they use to advance the sport they love! This type of person tends to be diligent with the abality to use good common sense, they do not take risks. If reloading carried with it such possible high risks as alluded to in the Digest article, then this unsafe practice would not be practiced world wide including the nothern part of this Island.
Does the NRA have any study results on reloading accidents from the practice of reloading.

Reloading used for armored piercing bullet cartridge manufacture!

This would be a red herring if you don't mind me saying.
Simply take one cartridge replace the std bullet with one Armoured Piercing Bullet acquired illegally from outside the state, obtained from some security/ military forces manufacturer / supplier,this approach to obtain AP bullet heads to "reload" is far fetched and a load of... mumbo jumbo!
Facts would suggests the import of AP ammo will be the same rat run as ever via the ports, shipped in with a consignment of drugs. Does anyone think drug dealers / drug takers will waste time learning the process of reloading when this type of ammunation pre loaded ready to go "could be shipped in" provoided it can be sourced in the first place.

SUPER LOADS!

Don't do it don't even try! If someone wants to risk a case burst while the cartridge is chambered
with a super load of extra propellant, run for cover as they are fools! If for some reason extra powerful ammunation is needed then you need to licence for a more powerful firearm.


Reloading propellant used for improvised explosive devices.

The makers of this type of devices at the moment appear to be using shotgun case powder for this pourpose along with other materials, match heads etc, as this type of propellant is slow burning its explosive effect is not be as forceful as conventional high explosive used in hand grenades. The internet is a source of pipe bomb devolvement for increased potency,step by step terrorist manuals apparently show you how to use domestic & easily available products to make what is in effect homemade explosive many times more powerful than "reloading propellant"
More worrying the use of imported hand grenades / rpg rockets and other lethal hardware available from Eastern Europe is becoming more commonly used by Gangs for Turf War Battles.
In summary reloading powder does not appear to be something to get worried about, If it didpose a real and present treat, then the Brittish authorities who have more genuine terrorist fears
than us would ban the sale of reloaders propellant to the shooting community and that would bethe end of it.

Hope for rational debate & thinking.

Sikamick

Gunter Mauser : Re your posting I hope the powers that be are looking in and see that as you have stated it is not from the person/persons that would like to legally and legitimate reload that the treat is, but from the criminal element which they are already keeping an eye on.


Gunter Mauser you make a lot of sense in your posting I wish some of the people that post on this forum made a much sense.

dimebag249

Criminals with armour piercing super bullets. It's a problem alright... I know, why not refuse reloading applications from criminals! Maybe even prosecute those who use firearms for criminal ends! Crazy, I know, but that would mean they wouldn't need to punish the rest of us for what a criminal might do.

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

Gunter Mauser you make a lot of sense in your posting I wish some of the people that post on this forum made a much sense.

Indeed

Gunter Mauser

Please be aware that said one pound containers of propellant are sold
in plastic containers then futher stored in a locked heavy wooden cabinet
to avoid the risk of any static build up! Outside shed of block construction preferably should do the job nicely!

One pound of propellant stored in this situation poses no risk and is far more safe and less volatile by a factor several times less than petrol for the lawn mower.:)

chem

Sparks wrote: »

He came to the DoJ firearms department from the anti-racism programme chem.

lucky old us:rolleyes:

chem

The point on black powder is rubbish to. Real black powder is pritty prone to what he says but noone uses black powder much now that pyrodex or tripple7 are around.

Sparks

To be fair chem, I've met the man. He's not anti-gun, he's not unreasonable, and while he doesn't have decades of experience with firearms like we would have, he's not thick either. We could do far, far worse (and have in the past).

chem

Sparks wrote: »

To be fair chem, I've met the man. He's not anti-gun, he's not unreasonable, and while he doesn't have decades of experience with firearms like we would have, he's not thick either. We could do far, far worse (and have in the past).

Maybe your right sparks, but from his letter printed in the SD he seems to have made his mind up already.

So has he been directed by the minister of justice to introduce these measures or is it his call?

Its all worded in a very nanny state approach. And alot of what the DoJ seem to think about the dangers of reloading come right out of the new rambo film.

Again the lose wording, used to write the firearms laws, are been used against licence holders and I can see it all in the high courts again, if they proceed in the way they seem to be going.

Gunter Mauser

If all the facts are offered to this man in a well crafted document that
clearly show up some of the misconceptions about what exactly is involved in the process of reloading, a lot of the scandalmongers who don't know what exactly is involved but think they do will get an education that debugs the myths once and for all.:)

chem

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

If all the facts are offered to this man in a well crafted document that
clearly show up some of the misconceptions about what exactly is involved in the process of reloading, a lot of the scandalmongers who don't know what exactly is involved but think they do will get an education that debugs the myths once and for all.:)

Thats true GM but who is telling the DoJ the misinformation in the 1st place? They have to be getting there info from somewhere. So if a letter is sent in from us "shooters" whos info is it contradicting? Is it the firearms dept, army,ferensics or all the above? They will not listen to anything we have to say if its other government depts who are saying different.

patbundy

chem wrote: »

Thats true GM but who is telling the DoJ the misinformation in the 1st place? They have to be getting there info from somewhere. So if a letter is sent in from us "shooters" whos info is it contradicting? Is it the firearms dept, army,ferensics or all the above? They will not listen to anything we have to say if its other government depts who are saying different.

good point chem ,i think we would all like to know

Sparks

chem wrote: »

Maybe your right sparks, but from his letter printed in the SD he seems to have made his mind up already.
So has he been directed by the minister of justice to introduce these measures or is it his call?

The thing about working in the DoJ is that if you write a letter on behalf of the DoJ, you're writing on behalf of the Minister. So I would want to talk to him before figuring out if the letter started with him or started higher up.

Traumadoc

interesting discussions in Canada.

http://www.nfa.ca/content/view/247/199/

Gunter Mauser

Traumadoc, at the very least they have something to give or reduce.:(

chem

just to draw on the canada post, posted by Traumadoc.

Can our beloved DoJ prove anything they claim on the danger of reloading?
Where are they coming up with the information?
At one point they talk about burst barrels then claim that super loads can be made??
Where are the cases (world wide) of AP bullets been used by criminals reolading?
Batchs of powder contain "markers" that can be detected after an explosion and leave it easier to trace the powder that was used.

It seems someone got talking into the DoJ`s ear about not wanting reloading to be licenced and then they got cold feet and are back peddeling fast.

Its a first for the DoJ to come out and send a letter to a shooting magazine

If the panel ment to represent us are not asking these questions then what the hell is the point of them been there? Are they going cap in hand and saying thank you govenor to any bone they get trown?

Grizzly 45

Thanks GM! You said everything I was going to say in the bulk of my article...:D
So I'll add afew other points.
First off a factory loaded round will always be better in quality,than a handloaded round.The only advantage one has in handloading is working up loads that suit ones paticular gun,shooting task or monetary savings.Monetary savings mostly in Ireland,as in the EU it is considerably cheaper to buy surplus ammo to practise with either shotgun or pistol.With our insular situation and exhorbiant inport costs.Reloading does become viable.

High level of training to reload.
There are appx 50million American gunowners and X thousands of the UK shooting fraternatiy who reload every calibre who have never recived any Govt mandated training,and have little to none accidents while doing so.Be it from single handloaders to multi stage electric driven reloading presses.There is more than adequate information out in the public domain written,video,Dvd,or internet for anyone to learn this comeptantly within aweekend.It is no more dangerous than operating a chainsaw or a lawnmower.

Ammo loaded to dangerous over tolerance.
This also occurs in factory made ammo as well!! But is usually caught thru quality control and product recall.It is more unlikely to occur in handloading due to the fact of the lower manufacturing bulk,and unless the shooter is totally incompetant and not following procedure with their own quality control,this is a very rare to non occurance.

Percussion caps
While having a sensitive primary explosive[mercury fulminate].Percussion caps are pretty minute explosive .They are packed in a relatively safe packet,that usually precludes them being spilled out to cause a saftey concern.Short of slamming the packet with a steel mallet on a steel bench they do not detonate unless very roughly handled.
EG
It is ironic that we surround ourselves these days in our vechicles with blasting caps that are capable of detonating high explosives,or detonating to inflate our air bags in an impact. Both highly unstable primary explosives yet one is strictly controlled,the other not so.Where would a competant bomb maker get the explosive detonator??A bunch of primer caps or a .wrecked car??

Criminal use.
Again somwhat questionable,as shotgun powder is a low brisance[ rate of burn to create gas to propel bullet],rifle powders depending on calibre,medium to high,and pistol powders a high brisance.However the amount of Nitro powder to create a viable Improvised Explosive Device [IED] is in the Kilo range with low brisance powders,whereas plastic explosives can do the same with grammes weight.Any competant "bombmaker" can create out of common domestic chemicals found in a household a more leathl device than from gun powder.
On the European black market hand grenades of current East Bloc manufacture are now available for appx 200 euros a pop .
So it is hardly conciveable that criminals with drug money or subversives who may still have access to appx 50 metric TONNES of Semtex here in Ireland.Despite the assurances given that it is "beyond use".Will resort to building IEDs.

Reloading AP rounds
......Red herring...why bother when they can be purchased and easily smuggled??

Difficulty of tracing at a crime scene
Reloaded brass shells will have stress marks from being resized in the reloading press.No matter how cleaned and polished the case will still keep the ejector and extractor marks as well.These are as good as fingerprints to any competant forensic examination.Also it is very unlikely that any criminal would leave spent cases in a crime scene.Or any professional hitman would want to use such ammo that is easily traced.

Sparks

Are we still using mercury fulminate in primers? I thought they'd switched away from that stuff decades ago.

rrpc

chem wrote: »

If the panel ment to represent us are not asking these questions then what the hell is the point of them been there? Are they going cap in hand and saying thank you govenor to any bone they get trown?

Chem, for someone who is intent on having a go at the FCP, would it have occurred to you to read their briefing document issued a week or so ago?

7. RELOADING:
Following advice from the Attorney General, the DOJ had decided to pause for thought on the advisability of allowing the reloading of ammunition in private homes by citizens. The Department has issued a discussion document on the subject setting out the pros and cons from it’s point of view and has invited submissions from the shooting interests.

And later in the document:

Re-loading
The associations are very concerned with an apparent rowing back on the legislation to allow for the re-loading of ammunition. This is a very common practise in a great many European countries and while the associations note the reported advice of the AG in relation to this matter, they are not at all convinced that the advice bears close scrutiny. This view is held based on what is common practice in a large number of European countries, noticeably without the “consequences” which seem to concern the AG.

It seems clear to me from the above that the shooting bodies on the FCP are aware of these issues and are working on them.

Gunter Mauser

If we are adopting the Canadian model for range layout here, lets have the rest of what the Canadian target shooter gets for his dollar namely the same type of abality to reload why not!

They can shoot 50 cal barrets the range regulations distances behind
the backstop must account for this type of target shooting, we don't here have 50 cal ranges and most lightly never will, does the canadian model:p
fit into the same templet we have taken on so that we have clearances behind the backstop that takes into account this type of firearm a firearm
that will never see use?

Reloading final. The next door garage could have stored.

Yellow bottled calor gas x3

several containers of lawn mower petrol in questionable conditions of safety & repair.

Tins of paint.

Garden chemicals of all description.

This garage like similar garages / sheds around the country catches a fire, the result....one large homemaid dirty bomb.

The "licensed firearm reloader" with his one or two little canisters of propellant looks almost conservative in his approach with rules and regs applying to contain his sporting hobby:o

Grizzly 45

Amen to that GM:D
However on the range specs of Canuck origin.Why not build them to take 50 Cal here where allowable by land size or whatever??THEN no one could turn around and say they are unsafe or unsuitable.As I doubt many Irish shooters are going to be pulling up in 20mm bofors AA guns anymore...Well maybe the RDF:eek::D.But they do have army ranges for that sort of thing.

Gunter Mauser

Grizzly, you must be talking Biffo country for this type of target shooting
if it ever takes place! or the wilds of Donegal.:rolleyes:

foxshooter243

Sparks wrote: »

Are we still using mercury fulminate in primers? I thought they'd switched away from that stuff decades ago.

early priming mixtures were fulminate of mercury or pottasium chlorate, or sometimes a combination of both, from the late 20s through the mid 30 s
american manufacturers worked to perfect a priming mixture the same as one developed in germany which was non corrosive and didnt contain mercury. the basis of such priming is compounds of lead ,barium and antimony. the newest primers are the lead free primers of tetracene, these however are not available to the reloader since the production demand is for use in finished ammo especially pistol ammo to be fired indoors where airborne lead presents a health hazard.

Grizzly 45

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

Grizzly, you must be talking Biffo country for this type of target shooting
if it ever takes place! or the wilds of Donegal.:rolleyes:

Heard they are talking of building one down in the Curragh that will be accesible to civvies that should be able to take 50 cal..

Gunter Mauser

50 cal's at the Curragh fear the taught:eek: Is that stright from the horses
mouth or some other part of the animals anatomy.:rolleyes:


The fear of claims by the granting of reloading licenses to target shooters could be got around by not having to have a new license for this purpose in the first place!:eek:

Your authorization should be your qualification on completing the reloading course that you receive the right to purchase a speficied amount of reloaders propellant. The liability is now shifted to the sport not the DOJ!

If they want to have a provisional cert to reload under supervision then all the better.
Gunter Mauser.

Sparks

I can't see how the state has liability. If that argument stood up in court, you could sue the state everytime someone with a full licence was involved in a car accident.

Gunter Mauser

Sparks, this is one of many cannards and red herrings that are flying around at the moment. Lets see what is sticking in the craw and dislodge the obstacle. It wont do to have a constant revolving guessing game of let me reload please, what do we have to do????:(

rrpc

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

If we are adopting the Canadian model for range layout here, lets have the rest of what the Canadian target shooter gets for his dollar namely the same type of abality to reload why not!

They can shoot 50 cal barrets the range regulations distances behind
the backstop must account for this type of target shooting, we don't here have 50 cal ranges and most lightly never will, does the canadian model:p
fit into the same templet we have taken on so that we have clearances behind the backstop that takes into account this type of firearm a firearm
that will never see use?

I was under the impression that 50 cals were on the prohibited list in Canada. Prohibited meaning you can't have.

Gunter Mauser

rrpc, from previous posting I understood they could use 50 cal in Canada.
If what you are saying they dont permit this caliber then I stand corrected, sorry folks for the dodgie info! Is this caliber available over in the UK as a matter of interest.

Grizzly 45

Trouble is;
WHO will do the course and set it up and teach it??? I feel we have enough State and other intrested[read out to make a profit and getting a monopoly on teaching] bodies involved in shooting sports.
I mean,isnt it ridicilous that we have more concern here in who is reloading than who is actually getting the firearms...Or that the Irish firearms saftey course consists of reading a book and signing off on it before you get a liscense.Fine,if you want to keep it at that level.BUT I am very dubious that it will be kept at that level.

As for the 50 cal range
Well, it comes from a person who is working and well in contact with the Curragh and it's going ons and is ex PDF.So I'll take it as pretty good info.
50 Cals in Canada ,
Intresting that they have the prohibited,restricted,and non restricted as well.
But this site is intresting in the sense what can still be owned there.www.marstar.ca

.243

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

rrpc, from previous posting I understood they could use 50 cal in Canada.
If what you are saying they dont permit this caliber then I stand corrected, sorry folks for the dodgie info! Is this caliber available over in the UK as a matter of interest.

yes you can buy a .50cal styer in the uk from the sportsman gun centre at 3700 stirling or if you want to go for the cream cheese rpa international have brought out their .50 rangemaster a snip at 7000 stirling

Sikamick

Does anyone know if there are any public records of reloading accidents that caused damage to people or property in the UK or the North of Ireland.

Where would one look for this information, it would be interesting to see.

Sikamick

QUOTE=Grizzly 45;55589245]Trouble is;
WHO will do the course and set it up and teach it???

__________________________________________________________________________________

? Does the NRA UK run courses for reloading, if they do I am sure that shooting clubs would have no problem in bringing certified instructors in from the UK to teach members that are interested in getting certified.

As for the NRA USA reloading correspondence course it's theory not hands on, nothing like having a trained/certified instructor working with you.

Sikamick

? Is there any Trained\Certified reloading instructors in Ireland at the moment, if so we have a starting point to run courses in our clubs. Comments please