Bertie V Enda

JMULL

Enda Kenny National School teacher. Thirty years as a TD. Served as minister for tourism or something for five minutes. Roughly same age as Bertie. If he resigned today what would people be saying was his legacy. I just cant think of anything.

Hagar

There goes an honest man?

Hagar

Hagar wrote: »

There goes an honest man?

Twas easy to be honest. He didn't do anything at all, let alone something to lie about.

oscarBravo

I think I'd be prouder of having done nothing, than of something I had to lie about.

Besides, why are we restricting legacy to that which was achieved in government office?

oscarBravo

oscarBravo wrote: »

I think I'd be prouder of having done nothing, than of something I had to lie about.

Then you should be very proud indeed of Enda. He has top marks in the done nothing stakes.

As for what he did outside government offices, he was a competent teacher and keeps a nice garden. Kudos.

death1234567

Enda Who?

oscarBravo

Deleted User wrote: »

As for what he did outside government offices, he was a competent teacher and keeps a nice garden. Kudos.

Spoken like an astute observer of the political scene. Not a trace of partisanship. Kudos.

oscarBravo

oscarBravo wrote: »

Not a trace of partisanship. Kudos.

I bow to your impartiality.

Sherifu

Deleted User wrote: »

Then you should be very proud indeed of Enda. He has top marks in the done nothing stakes.

As for what he did outside government offices, he was a competent teacher and keeps a nice garden. Kudos.

You'd think being honest is a crime.

Sherifu

Sherifu wrote: »

You'd think being honest is a crime.

You'd think being honest was the most important thing to govern.

That John F and Robert Kennedy. Everyone remembers them for that civil rights nonsense. The big news was riding Marilyn and lying to their wives, of course.

Sherifu

Deleted User wrote: »

You'd think being honest was the most important thing to govern.

That John F and Robert Kennedy. Everyone remembers them for that civil rights nonsense. The big news was riding Marilyn and lying to their wives, of course.

That didn't affect people's lives.

oscarBravo

Deleted User wrote: »

You'd think being honest was the most important thing to govern.

Surprisingly, some people consider it important. Sadly, fewer Irish people think so than in other countries.

JMULL

Right the only thing people will say about Kenny when he goes is that he was honest. Home and Away coverage should not be affected that day then so.

oscarBravo

He's not gone yet. As of now, his legacy includes turning around the electoral fortunes of FG, and he could yet have a legacy as Taoiseach.

JMULL

Sure the only way was up for FG in the last election. If current government goes full term Enda will be retirement age by next election. Surely after 30 years though he should have some legacy left.

Liam Byrne

Deleted User wrote: »

You'd think being honest was the most important thing to govern.

In my book it's right up there. Do you think it's not ?

Deleted User wrote: »

That John F and Robert Kennedy. Everyone remembers them for that civil rights nonsense. The big news was riding Marilyn and lying to their wives, of course.

Is it unfair to throw in just a TINY nod towards Celia Larkin ?

Whether or not you're faithful to your wife or g/f is probably a personal issue, although it might reflect your level of honesty and ethics; aside from that, though, it's irrelevant.

Breezer

Enda Kenny has not been given the opportunity to show what he is capable of in Government, so I don't think it is fair to compare his legacy to Bertie's. As leader of Fine Gael, he has brought his party from the brink of extinction to eclipsing Fianna Fáil in the European elections of 2004, increased FG's number of Dáil seats from 31 in 2002 to 51 in 2007, and were it not for a poor performance by Labour he would now be Taoiseach.

He has named a strong front bench for the 30th Dáil and Fine Gael are a much stronger and more vocal force this time around (witness Dr James Reilly's numerous scathing attacks on Mary Harney over the scandals in the Health Service).

As leader of his party he took the mature stance of fighting the last general election on issues that mattered to the Irish people, rather than on Bertie Ahern's finances. When it became clear during this Dáil that the finances were becoming a distraction to Fianna Fáil running this country, he (along with many others) called for Bertie Ahern to resign, and kept up the pressure for many months until it eventually happened.

As Minister for Tourism he brought the Tour de France to Ireland and presided over a period of increased tourism generally. What exactly do you expect a Minister for Tourism to do, cure cancer? What has Seamus Brennan done in the same post?

As regards what Enda Kenny did not do, he did not claim to be an accountant when he holds no such qualification, he did not claim to graduate from UCD when he never attended the university, he did not sign blank cheques, he did not develop amnesia when questioned about Sterling lodgements, only for his secretary to contradict him... the list goes on.

For a full synopsis of the various committees Enda Kenny has chaired and the positions he has held, have a look at his website, http://www.endakenny.ie.

I don't believe Bertie Ahern is the devil. I dislike the man, I think he did an excellent job in Northern Ireland but rode the wave of a good economy south of border without maximising its true potential, ultimately hung himself due to shady dealings, and I am not sorry to see him go. I acknowledge his achievements, but to put Bertie up on a pedestal and claim that because Enda did not bring peace to Northern Ireland he is absolutely useless is total rubbish.

JMULL

Great so he brought the party to second place in the last election. Would not be much point in him pretending to be an accountant when everybody knew that he was holding on to his teaching post till about two or three years ago.

Breezer

JMULL wrote: »

Great so he brought the party to second place in the last election.

And first place in the Europeans in 2004. And I would consider FG's performance in the last general election to be a significant achievement. For FG to go from their worst election result since 1948 to being the largest party in the Dáil would be totally unrealistic. Enda has set this as his ambition for the next election, a bold move admittedly, but far more realistic than trying to do it last time around.

Would not be much point in him pretending to be an accountant when everybody knew that he was holding on to his teaching post till about two or three years ago.

You're deliberately taking that out of context. Of course he wouldn't pretend to be an accountant. The point is, he has never pretended to be something he isn't in order to further his credibility. And on the point of holding on to jobs, Bertie Ahern is still technically on a career break from the Mater.

Liam Byrne

JMULL wrote: »

Great so he brought the party to second place in the last election. Would not be much point in him pretending to be an accountant when everybody knew that he was holding on to his teaching post till about two or three years ago.

What exactly does that have to do with anything ?

The reason that Enda & FG didn't get into power is because FF claimed that the economy was so good that they should be left in power so that they could "keep up the good work".

Now that they have power, any downturn is "not their fault" and is down to "external factors".

Gob****es! Claim credit for good things but run when there's accountability and responsibility and leadership required. :mad:

Give me Enda any day......even today he was gracious and factual, rather than gloating.

Bertie's "man of the people" was an illusion - I remember thinking that it was pretty apt that the election posters of him "meeting and greeting" people were PhotoShop jobs...... :rolleyes: Very apt indeed.

LostinBlanch

Deleted User wrote: »

You'd think being honest was the most important thing to govern.

Like others have said it's up there. I would have said it's a prerequisite. I was talking about this at the weekend and said weren't we lucky not to have had the likes of Bertie, CJH in the 1920's? The country could well have been sold from under us.

Instead we got Dev who at least had a vision of the Ireland he wanted one that resonated with lots of the population at the time. Though not all obviously. At least he was honest, like the majority of people then.

I wonder at what point things changed and it became acceptable to put mé Féinism above honesty and true patriotism?

serfboard

Apart from the 2 1/2 years that Fine Gael were in Government, Fianna Fail have been in power for the last 21 years and assuming that this current government will remain in power for the full term, then they will have been in government for 25 years.

It's hard for someone who's not in government to have any legacy of great achievements in the national sense.

Colonel Sanders

serfboard wrote: »

Apart from the 2 1/2 years that Fine Gael were in Government, Fianna Fail have been in power for the last 21 years and assuming that this current government will remain in power for the full term, then they will have been in government for 25 years.

It's hard for someone who's not in government to have any legacy of great achievements in the national sense.

+1

Enda Kenny strikes me as a reasonably honourable, polite man. Bertie strikes me as a loud mouthed bumbling incompetent fool (during the leaders debate last year a lot of his shots at kenny were childish and smacked of circus tricks, i was half expecting him to shout 'your ma!' at any stage). Unfortunately Irish people seem to prefer the image of 'the man you'd go for a pint with'.

mickd

Breezer wrote: »

(witness Dr James Reilly's numerous scathing attacks on Mary Harney over the scandals in the Health Service).

Ah yes the poacher turned game keeper

Breezer wrote: »

As Minister for Tourism he brought the Tour de France to Ireland and presided over a period of increased tourism generally. What exactly do you expect a Minister for Tourism to do, cure cancer? What has Seamus Brennan done in the same post?

It amazes me when FG supporters are scratching around to look for some achievements over the past 25 years however bringing a sport event that was ridden with drug taking to the country is hardly noteworthy

Breezer wrote: »

As regards what Enda Kenny did not do, he did not claim to be an accountant when he holds no such qualification, he did not claim to graduate from UCD when he never attended the university, he did not sign blank cheques, he did not develop amnesia when questioned about Sterling lodgements, only for his secretary to contradict him... the list goes on.

Still was the most the successful Taoiseach since DeValera.

jmayo

mickd wrote: »

Ah yes the poacher turned game keeper



It amazes me when FG supporters are scratching around to look for some achievements over the past 25 years however bringing a sport event that was ridden with drug taking to the country is hardly noteworthy



Still was the most the successful Taoiseach since DeValera.

Ahh the FF motto for success over the last 25 years seems to have been
"beg, borrow or steal".

Who cares just solong as we get re-elected.
Compared to that all the other political parties are utter failures.
Worse thing that ever happened to FF was Goerge Colley not becoming leader.

The_Minister

I'm amazed that noone has mentioned Kenny's little planning fiasco when he was minister for tourism. About the only thing that he is remembered for is ruining the countryside (although he is not the only one who is to blame).

I have no real time for Enda, he seems like a nice simple lad, nothing special.

Richard Bruton now, there is a man that you can respect.

jmayo

The_Minister wrote: »

I'm amazed that noone has mentioned Kenny's little planning fiasco when he was minister for tourism. About the only thing that he is remembered for is ruining the countryside (although he is not the only one who is to blame).

I have no real time for Enda, he seems like a nice simple lad, nothing special.

Richard Bruton now, there is a man that you can respect.

Nice to see the PDs are still in bed with FF :rolleyes:
Matta Harrie can continue her fine work providing us all with a better, value for money and responsible health service for the next 4 odd years:(

mickd

jmayo wrote: »

Ahh the FF motto for success over the last 25 years seems to have been
"beg, borrow or steal".

Its the Irish motto or have you lived abroad for the last 25 years

jmayo wrote: »

Who cares just solong as we get re-elected.

Indeed Its up to FG to grow a set of balls instead of the usual spineless supine individuals we see

jmayo wrote: »

Compared to that all the other political parties are utter failures.
Worse thing that ever happened to FF was Goerge Colley not becoming leader.

One could debate that

The_Minister

Breezer wrote: »

When it became clear during this Dáil that the finances were becoming a distraction to Fianna Fáil running this country, he (along with many others) called for Bertie Ahern to resign, and kept up the pressure for many months until it eventually happened.

Sorry, but no.
Fine Gael called for his resignation for months, and nothing happened. Again and again, they cried for it, and the media gave them five minutes, and nothing more happened.

A PD senator calls for an explanation, then the PD leader does, and within days he is gone.

Fine Gael did put pressure on him to resign, but I think the credit for the final shiv must go to the Progressive Democrats. (and I don't think that is a good thing for them).

jmayo

mickd wrote: »

Its the Irish motto or have you lived abroad for the last 25 years

Indeed Its up to FG to grow a set of balls instead of the usual spineless supine individuals we see

One could debate that

So you are proud of Charlie, Ray, Padraig, Liam and Bertie ?
Ah sure who gets hurt if a few politicans accept a few gifts ?
Only thing is we all do since we all live with the consequences of bad planning, over priced services, poor infrastructure and poor value on state contracts.

daithicarr

Enda doesnt strike me as a particularily good leader for a country, but when the other option is Bertie i would happily see him in office.

Its a pity none of the partys seem to have any leaders of any great caliber. i wish they spent more time saying what they would do right, instead of what FF did wrong.
We know they are corrupt and incompetant. but as far as i can see none of the partys are putting forward any proposals or reforms which would help guard against future corruption and incompetance.

The_Minister

jmayo wrote: »

Nice to see the PDs are still in bed with FF :rolleyes:
Matta Harrie can continue her fine work providing us all with a better, value for money and responsible health service for the next 4 odd years:(

Maybe not for long - it is well known that Cowen despises the Progressive Democrats, and he is rumoured to still feel stung by his abject failure as health minister.

I think that Harney is right on most of what she says, and for those decisions that I don't agree with, I think her heart is in the right place. There are very few people that I will say that about.
For years our Health service was run for the electoral benefit of county councillors, with hospitals built in nearly every community that wanted them, regardless of whether or not this made sense.
This focus on hospitals means that we have one of the longest times in the world for hospital stays - we stay on average three days longer than French patients, because the services that let us help people at home are very basic.
Why are they basic? Because Mary Harney has had to try and build them from scratch, being fought by various vested intert groups along the way.

If you listen to what Harney says, watch the recordings of when she has spoken about the Health Service, read the articles that she has written about it, then you will see that what she is saying makes sense.

daithicarr

I read articles from leading health experts from trinity and other places who said it was a terrible idea this two tier health system, the one we have in completely disorganised, this will just add to the chaos.

I agree. Hospital and health services need to be provided around the country especially if they hope to develop the regions outside Dublin.

whats really needed is a massive reform of our whole public services system with much more accountability .

Other countrys can run relativly efficent public services. why cant we?

JMULL

JMayo. You mention Charlie, Padraic,Ray and Bertie. Charlie and Padraic like Enda Kenny are both mayo men. Just take their contributions to Mayo alone. Charlie - allergan, davitt house, ceide fields and knock airport (which Enda Kenny was against, probably because of his lack of vision). Padraic Flynn's work can be seen all over the Mayo Capital. Enda Kenny

jmayo

JMULL wrote: »

JMayo. You mention Charlie, Padraic,Ray and Bertie. Charlie and Padraic like Enda Kenny are both mayo men. Just take their contributions to Mayo alone. Charlie - allergan, davitt house, ceide fields and knock airport (which Enda Kenny was against, probably because of his lack of vision). Padraic Flynn's work can be seen all over the Mayo Capital. Enda Kenny

Did I say I was proud of either Flynn or Haughey ?
I could say what I really thought of them but I would be banned immediately.

So Charlie personnally brought Allergan to Westport ?
Did he also bring them to Arklow, oh wait they are shutting that one so we won't mention it.

Yes Charlie backed Knock airport but how and where was most of the money raised is always a question.
How much of it was down to Mons Horan ?

Ah yes but take a look at outside Castlebar. Drive the roads in East Mayo and try and find a Flynn highway. He feathered his own little patch and left the rest of the country to avoid the potholes. (Please do not count the cockup of a Charlestown bypass recently opened as you will find form another forum on here what the roads quality is really like.)
BTW you can also see Flynns legacy in Dublin, the nation's capital, as people inch their way home on a ring road always under construction and routed through a toll bridge that earns a private monopoly a small fortue each year from the capitals citizens.

How long was Kenny in a government over the years whilst the above were in power ?
How can you influence major decisions regarding funding (e.g roads, tourist infrastructure) if you are not in government ?

The consensus among FF and bertie supporters is so what if he took a few quid. (I can remember similar comments about CJH.)
It was not a few quid, someone has worked out the value of payments/lodgements being investigated as somewhere over 800,000 in today terms.
Now maybe to you that is a few quid, but it ain't to me.

Then the excuse comes about how he has done great for this country?
Yeah we have a third world health service that costs an arm and a leg, sorry maybe that should read a few lives every year.
We have a public service that is inefficient, unresponsible, over staffed in admin areas and overpaid in lots of other respects.

We have no real public transport infrastructure (Luas is unconnected joke), added to a few bits of motorway that have come in over budget and late. And this is after the boom years.

Maybe when the air finally runs out of the property bubble, people will really see the economy that bertie built for it what it really is, a farce built on cheap credit to benefit the builders and developers that inherit the FF tent in Galway come July.

PS you didn't mention what Ray did for Mayo?

AckwelFoley

enda Kenny is one of the reasons Fianna Fail are in power for so long.

The worst leader Fine Gael has had in my life time among a few whoppers they had.

Today he showed why he is what he is, when other party leaders could be professional and particularly John Gormley - in Saying they welcome the decision, hes a good politician, now lets get down to runing the country.

Enda Kenny can simply pass a few snyde remarks... and call for another General Election?!?!?! Whats worng with him? His wish to get into power is almost sickening.. How about you come up with some decent proposals and perhaps ppl will take your party more serious?

Moriarty

Ah the stench of party politics, there's really nothing quite like it..

jmayo

jmayo wrote: »

the builders and developers that inherit the FF tent in Galway come July.

Ah yes, it had to be wheeled out.

Whoever said the old ones are the best was wrong. They're just old.

You forgot to mention the peace process where his input (amongst others of course) probably saves...

jmayo wrote: »

a few lives every year.

I keep forgetting Enda's list of achievements when put against the peace process. Then again, so many things would pale beside that, I guess.

magick

Hagar wrote: »

There goes an honest man?

More like the Ginger Winger

roadruner

GEORGE W KENNY Total Dunce

Before the last election "When I'm Taoiseach " :):pac::D

He came he saw and still hadn't a notion of whay was going on

As for Bertie

Another good man taken down by a sniper surrounded by books

cm2000

serfboard wrote: »

Apart from the 2 1/2 years that Fine Gael were in Government, Fianna Fail have been in power for the last 21 years and assuming that this current government will remain in power for the full term, then they will have been in government for 25 years.

It's hard for someone who's not in government to have any legacy of great achievements in the national sense.

well perhaps this is because of the inadequacy of Fine Gael leaders, Kenny included. Him not being in government is largely of his own and his parties making.

Liam Byrne

cm2000 wrote: »

Him not being in government is largely of his own and his parties making.

Nope, him not being in government is down to the fact that FG told it like it was in the run-up to the election, while FF promised the sun, moon and stars.

The problem is that the electorate fell for it.

Incompetence, blowing hot air and wasting money seems to get you somewhere in Irish politics (or at least in FF).....

Kenny is dead right, and I hope the electorate take note; it's not just Bertie who's been tarnished by this - all of his ministers and government stood idly by and did SFA, and therefore if the government hasn't been governing then it's ALL their fault.....so remind me why they're still in office ?

P.S. Unlike a lot of the posts so far, I've no allegiance to any particular party.....it's just that FG couldn't do any worse and so they deserve a shot at it on the basis that (despite what Conor seems to think) honesty, trustworthy and a resolve not to "turn a blind eye" are essential in politics.

jmayo

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah yes, it had to be wheeled out.

Whoever said the old ones are the best was wrong. They're just old.

You forgot to mention the peace process where his input (amongst others of course) probably saves...


I keep forgetting Enda's list of achievements when put against the peace process. Then again, so many things would pale beside that, I guess.

Glad to see O'Donoghue is letting you use the web again and just in time to trot out the party line.

Ah the peace process.
I suppose John Hume or indeed your own Albert Reynolds had nought to do with it.
Sure bertie did it all.
Of course Albert was stabbed in the back but in tradtional FF style he was forgotten.

According to the posts on here Kenny had as good a chance as bertie to leave a legacy even though his party have only been in government for 5/6 odd years during his time in Dail, where as bertie's party has been in power for over 20 odd years since 1977.
Yet another example of FF sums and mathematics in play :rolleyes:
No wonder some of your members forget to pay their taxes and declare bank accounts.

Breezer

The_Minister wrote:

Sorry, but no.
Fine Gael called for his resignation for months, and nothing happened. Again and again, they cried for it, and the media gave them five minutes, and nothing more happened.

A PD senator calls for an explanation, then the PD leader does, and within days he is gone.

Fine Gael did put pressure on him to resign, but I think the credit for the final shiv must go to the Progressive Democrats. (and I don't think that is a good thing for them).

Of course the PDs had more of an effect, they are FF's coalition partners. I didn't say FG were the reason Bertie resigned. People are saying Enda Kenny is incompetent. He is the leader of the Opposition and is doing a fine job at what the Opposition is supposed to do: point out when the Government is at fault.

The_Minister wrote:

Richard Bruton now, there is a man that you can respect.

Agreed. But I also respect Enda.

snyper wrote:

Enda Kenny can simply pass a few snyde remarks... and call for another General Election?!?!?! Whats worng with him? His wish to get into power is almost sickening.. How about you come up with some decent proposals and perhaps ppl will take your party more serious?

Enda congratulated Bertie on his work in Northern Ireland, something all of Bertie's supporters on this thread are also doing. He made the point that this was another FF leader leaving in less than ideal circumstances - can anyone argue? I agree that the General Election comment was a bit surprising, but only because there is no hope of it happening. Labour's Liz McManus agreed with the idea on RTE, although she also admitted it wasn't going to happen.

cm2000 wrote:

well perhaps this is because of the inadequacy of Fine Gael leaders, Kenny included. Him not being in government is largely of his own and his parties making.

Kenny has overseen one set of Local and European elections, and one General Election. Fine Gael increased their number of councillors in the locals, defeated FF in the Europeans, and made a dramatic comeback in the General Election which took them within a whisker of Government. A poor performance by Labour and the fact that many FG and Labour voters transferred to the Greens, who then went into Government with FF, resulted in FG remaining in Opposition. I am not blaming those parties, of course had FG themselves done better they would not have needed the support, but I think it is unrealistic to expect a party to achieve an overall majority straight after its worst result in over 50 years. We'll see what happens next time round.

mickd wrote:

It amazes me when FG supporters are scratching around to look for some achievements over the past 25 years however bringing a sport event that was ridden with drug taking to the country is hardly noteworthy

I was referring to Enda Kenny's personal achievements rather than FG's achievements. As Minister for Tourism, he brought a large sporting event to the country, thereby increasing tourist revenue. The drug issue is a matter for the cycling bodies to sort out. Again I ask what you expect a minister for tourism to do, if not to promote tourism?

mickd wrote:

Still was the most the successful Taoiseach since DeValera.

That depends on how you measure success. Personally I feel the good done for the country while in office is a better marker than the amount of elections won (some on promises of a dubious nature). I'd have far more respect for Sean Lemass, for example, than Bertie Ahern.

walrusgumble

Who cares just solong as we get re-elected.
Compared to that all the other political parties are utter failures.
Worse thing that ever happened to FF was Goerge Colley not becoming leader.[/QUOTE]

for integrity and honesty maybe yes - but if you wanted ireland to remain the nice little catholic ireland then no. colley was made from the same cloth as de valera.

ninty9er

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Nope, him not being in government is down to the fact that FG told it like it was in the run-up to the election, while FF promised the sun, moon and stars.

The problem is that the electorate fell for it.

Incompetence, blowing hot air and wasting money seems to get you somewhere in Irish politics (or at least in FF).....

Kenny is dead right, and I hope the electorate take note; it's not just Bertie who's been tarnished by this - all of his ministers and government stood idly by and did SFA, and therefore if the government hasn't been governing then it's ALL their fault.....so remind me why they're still in office ?

P.S. Unlike a lot of the posts so far, I've no allegiance to any particular party.....it's just that FG couldn't do any worse and so they deserve a shot at it on the basis that (despite what Conor seems to think) honesty, trustworthy and a resolve not to "turn a blind eye" are essential in politics.

Kenny promised free medical care for all under 5s....except he was outwitted by Bertie on the Prime Time debate when it was uncovered as a fact that would not be true until 2012...(i.e. anyone with a child already born would gain no benefit)

Labour promised the same economic policies as Fianna Fáil.

They promised more hospitals, fully publicly fiunded hospitals....spun the figures to look lie they were promising the same amount of extra Gardaí as FF when in fact it was 800 less.

The 2 programmes for government would have been more or less the same...next time round the manifesto of anyone seeming to be a credible government will have to include increases in income tax.

THEM ARE FACTS!!!

Bertie is no saint, but God help us if that gobdaw Kenny ever became Taoiseach. Brian Hayes would have seen the teachers out on strike last November with his snivelling comments about absolutely anything. I'm sure he could be cynical about a chicken crossing the road. The Same goes for Leo Varadkar.

Charlie Flanagan and Reilly I can deal with, at least you can see they're decent people behind it all. I used to respect Hayes like these 2, but his incessant barking could drive anyone to drive a car straight at him!!

And just because nothing has come out of Enda Kenny's woodwork doesn't mean there's nothing there. There might be nothing there, maybe nobody looked, ore maybe he's just good at hiding corruption...WE DON'T KNOW. A Fine Gael member yesterday told me the major fault in Bertie's dealings with the Tribunal was

It's not half as complicated as it should be and there needs to be a lot more stuttering.

Party is irrelevant. The person is what's important. The party with the best people wins and does so consistently. It's not rocket science.

And for all Fianna Fáil's power at any costs harangers, take a look at comments made by Enda Kenny, but more interestingly FGs backroom Barry Walsh today.

Liam Byrne

ninty9er, I can't honestly see how you can justify ANY statement that "there could be corruption" in Enda Kenny's background.....other than some pathetic attempt at deflecting attention via mud-slinging - something to do with your blatant Fianna Fail signature, I'd guess ?

If you can say that so casually and without a shred of reason for such a suspicion, you could equally say it about ALL of the FF cabinet and the potential new FF leader/Taoiseach.....are they all "at it", ninety9er ? Surely - based on your criteria, there's just as much chance of Brian Cowen being corrupt as Enda Kenny ???? So how come you didn't make that statement about him ????

Since FF (and others) are telling us that we HAVE to presume that Bertie is innocent unless we have proof (even despite some very odd behaviour by him in refusing to use the numerous opportunities that he has had to clear his own name) then I cannot for the life of me see how ANYONE can suggest that there "might be" skeletons in Enda Kenny's closet.

If I came on here and said that you "might be" a drug dealer, WE DON'T KNOW, then I would be COMPLETELY in the wrong (you might well be, but I have no evidence WHATSOEVER and no reason or justification to say it).

Likewise (and just to clarify that this is not a personal attack on you) if someone else came on here and said that I "might be" a thief, but they "DON'T KNOW", they'd be completely wrong, I'd be entitled to get that post removed, and possibly sue them for slander and defamation of character.

Innocent until proven guilty applies to Bertie (despite his odd behaviour and unexplained finances); he's told varying stories and needs to be investigated further, but the issue wasn't whether he was "guilty" of "something"; the issue was that he didn't give a single consistent plausible explanation, and - at the moment is ONLY guilty of - not giving that single, consistent plausible explanation. Hence he's innocent but not "above reproach", because he's acted oddly.

But innocent and above reproach until proven guilty DEFINITELY applies to Enda Kenny.

If you have proof, fire away, otherwise retract that part of your post.

Breezer

I second what Liam Byrne said above. You're entitled to your views on the various FG TDs ninty9er, but that was a strange comment altogether.

I also take issue with this, as I did at the time:

ninty9er wrote: »

Kenny promised free medical care for all under 5s....except he was outwitted by Bertie on the Prime Time debate when it was uncovered as a fact that would not be true until 2012...(i.e. anyone with a child already born would gain no benefit)

While I don't have a record of the debate to hand (I'm not looking up the RTE archives at this hour of the morning!), if memory serves me correctly Bertie pressed Enda on details of how this plan would be implemented. Enda said that it would be introduced on a phased basis, and that the details were not yet worked out (call that lack of organisation if you want). However, Bertie interpreted a 'phased basis' to mean that in the first year children under a year of age would receive this benefit, in the second year children under two years of age, and so on. From this interpretation, he drew the conclusion that 'no child born today (May 2007)' would receive this benefit.

The problem is that Enda never said that that was how the system would be implemented. My major gripe about the whole thing is that Enda didn't pull Bertie up on this flawed logic (or to be more precise, he did, but didn't hammer it home and allowed Bertie to repeat himself as if that made him right), and allowed Bertie to score a point. A poor move in a debate, but it doesn't mean there was anything wrong with the plan.

jmayo

jmayo wrote: »

Glad to see O'Donoghue is letting you use the web again and just in time to trot out the party line.

Yawn.

The suggestion that anyone who defends FF is in the grip of some party machine and incapable of independant thought is an even older chestnut than your last post.

jmayo wrote: »

I suppose John Hume or indeed your own Albert Reynolds had nought to do with it.
Sure bertie did it all.

I don't believe I ever made that argument.

Who exactly are you addressing?

jmayo wrote: »

According to the posts on here

The fly in the ointment of that argument is, of course, that posts on here are hardly representative of how people think and vote, merely how posters here do.

ninty9er

Liam Byrne wrote: »

ninty9er, I can't honestly see how you can justify ANY statement that "there could be corruption" in Enda Kenny's background.....other than some pathetic attempt at deflecting attention via mud-slinging - something to do with your blatant Fianna Fail signature, I'd guess ?

If you can say that so casually and without a shred of reason for such a suspicion, you could equally say it about ALL of the FF cabinet and the potential new FF leader/Taoiseach.....are they all "at it", ninety9er ? Surely - based on your criteria, there's just as much chance of Brian Cowen being corrupt as Enda Kenny ???? So how come you didn't make that statement about him ????

Since FF (and others) are telling us that we HAVE to presume that Bertie is innocent unless we have proof (even despite some very odd behaviour by him in refusing to use the numerous opportunities that he has had to clear his own name) then I cannot for the life of me see how ANYONE can suggest that there "might be" skeletons in Enda Kenny's closet.

If I came on here and said that you "might be" a drug dealer, WE DON'T KNOW, then I would be COMPLETELY in the wrong (you might well be, but I have no evidence WHATSOEVER and no reason or justification to say it).

Likewise (and just to clarify that this is not a personal attack on you) if someone else came on here and said that I "might be" a thief, but they "DON'T KNOW", they'd be completely wrong, I'd be entitled to get that post removed, and possibly sue them for slander and defamation of character.

Innocent until proven guilty applies to Bertie (despite his odd behaviour and unexplained finances); he's told varying stories and needs to be investigated further, but the issue wasn't whether he was "guilty" of "something"; the issue was that he didn't give a single consistent plausible explanation, and - at the moment is ONLY guilty of - not giving that single, consistent plausible explanation. Hence he's innocent but not "above reproach", because he's acted oddly.

But innocent and above reproach until proven guilty DEFINITELY applies to Enda Kenny.

If you have proof, fire away, otherwise retract that part of your post.

You are absolutely correct. It could be said of any TD, Senator, Councillor or shopkeeper that they have corrupt paymet skeletons. what makes this different is that you and others ASSUME there is foundation to the claims without any proof.

For example I could say it is corrupt for teachers in the Dáil to accept their salaries while on sabbatical, but then we'd probably end up with by-elections in 10 or more constituencies around the country if we expected them to resign. And if theose people were to stand in those elections, we'd probably end up with 90% of the same people back in the Dáil. it's a viscious circle.

No TD runs for election for the good of their health, their family or their pocket. To suggest that would be utter folly. If Enda had spent the last 30 years teaching, he'd be earning the bones of €80k, could give grinds on the side and could retire after 30 years service with a lump sum payment. He'd work less hours, closer to home, and wouldn't have people hounding him everywhere he went. The same applies to all those solicitors, accountants, company directors and doctors who put themselves forward for election. We'll only have to wait 6 weeks to find out what jobs Bertie has the pick of, and it won't be a short list either. The reason being, the contents and movements, sources and destinations of the contents of his bank accounts, just like anyone else....have absolutely no effect on how they perform their job

oscarBravo

ninty9er wrote: »

You are absolutely correct. It could be said of any TD, Senator, Councillor or shopkeeper that they have corrupt paymet skeletons. what makes this different is that you and others ASSUME there is foundation to the claims without any proof.

That's a straw man, to say the least. It's also demonstrably untrue, and the fact remains that what you originally said is potentially libelous.

ninty9er wrote: »

For example I could say it is corrupt for teachers in the Dáil to accept their salaries while on sabbatical...

Only if you redefine the word "corrupt" to suit your own ends. Thankfully, there's already a fairly clear-cut definition in place.