Alternative to Alcoholics Anonymous

collie50

Alternative to Alcoholics Anonymous

Hope Im putting this in the correct spot

Does anyone one know anything about SMART RECOVERY as an alternative to AA. I had a look at their web site and it seems positive.

Does anyone know if they have any groups or meetings in Dublin?

That 12 step thing just isnt for me:eek:

dercun

Never used Smart Recovery, but the one I have used and found great is unhooked.com

collie50

Hi,


Im aware the guys who created this non drinkers forum dont want it to become a rehab spot but do unhooked run meetings in Ireland?

I dont want to be to critical of AA but it does my head right in.
Just cant deal with that religious 12 step higher power stuff!

http://www.deanesmay.com/archives/006854.html

NonDrinkersClub

Hi - this is good advice for people who have drinking problems and want to give up, however, I don't think it's a great place to advertise!

collie50

Advertise what?

smart recovery or unhooked or what? none of which appear to run in ireland? or perhaps you mean the link to deans...

Can you please explain as Im not sure what you mean?

Thanks

NonDrinkersClub

I just mean that non-drinkers & a recovering alcoholics are very different types of people and this is not really a good place to post links for that stuff. Might be a good idea to set-up an AA forum? What do you think?

collie50

Hi,

Thanks for the explanation but I’m not sure if you read the link, it’s nothing to do with advertising and tries to move away from the whole AA thing. If people are to move away for the AA scenario they could perhaps be looking at alternatives: for example your excellent site of nondrinkersclub which has the correct idea that alcohol should not be an issue to having fun. I have never had serious trouble with alcohol but simply don’t like the affects of it. I don’t want to sit around all evening talking about how bad it is. The AA setup is that alcohol is the root of all problems which I believe is very negative.. However I do acknowledge that you did not wish for this forum to become a rehab spot as stated in my earlier post. So anyway, unfortunately it appears there is no AA alternative in Ireland, therefore I believe you may get or have many members who are or who have been in AA. Are they welcome?

Apologies for putting the thread in this spot as I believe you are doing very good work but to start up an AA forum would simply be a worlog of drink stories which I don’t think anyone here would want to read, especially not me.

So I think I’ll can leave it at that and keep up the good work.

NonDrinkersClub

Yeah - pretty much I don't wouldn't like the forum turning into a rehab spot either

That said, I think any AA member who has something positive to contribute is more than welcome to post here.

I didn't realise that the AA is a bit on the religious side?

CPT. SURF

NonDrinkersClub wrote: »

I didn't realise that the AA is a bit on the religious side?

A bit on the religious side? You must never have been to a meeting.

It seemed to be all about how alcoholics are powerless to the drink and how you must admit that only through GOD can you gain the strength necessary to quit. Not for me.

I quit drinking recently and if anything I feel more powerful than ever. I do not believe in God either. How is this possible????;)

NonDrinkersClub

I've never been to a meeting but that's probably cos I'm the furthest thing from an alcoholic I'm a non drinker for health reasons. I'm not a big believer in God either. I'd hate to be an alcoholic trying to help themselves and getting stuck with a bunch of religious nutters! I mean, it's all well and good if belief can help you through, but in our modern society, you'd think there'd be a few non-religious alternatives. Is there nothing else?

Karen_*

CPT. SURF wrote: »

A bit on the religious side? You must never have been to a meeting.

It seemed to be all about how alcoholics are powerless to the drink and how you must admit that only through GOD can you gain the strength necessary to quit. Not for me.

I quit drinking recently and if anything I feel more powerful than ever. I do not believe in God either. How is this possible????;)

They don't force God down your throat because not everyone in AA beleives in God. But most people believe in a higher power and your God can be whatever you beleive yourself. Even if that God is just willpower of the love and support of friends. Theres alot more than just ourselves gets us through the bad times.

CPT. SURF

Karen33 wrote: »

They don't force God down your throat because not everyone in AA beleives in God. But most people believe in a higher power and your God can be whatever you beleive yourself. Even if that God is just willpower of the love and support of friends. Theres alot more than just ourselves gets us through the bad times.

Why do you have to call the love and support of your friends "GOD"? That is a little strange no? What not just call it for what it is?

Why not have some faith in yourself and the world around you and stop trying to attribute things to some spooky God?

LaVidaLoca

http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/humanist2.htm

There's Rational Recovery as a secular alternative.

Karen_*

CPT. SURF wrote: »

Why do you have to call the love and support of your friends "GOD"? That is a little strange no? What not just call it for what it is?

Why not have some faith in yourself and the world around you and stop trying to attribute things to some spooky God?

Sorry I didn't mean friends were God. I meant we sometimes need support to get through things. For some people its friends, for others its a God they beleive in.

I don't beleive in God myself,

cue

CPT. SURF wrote: »

some spooky God?

Hey, c'mon now. Don't be mean. I like my spooky god. My spooky god likes you too

Richie860504

Yeah been to AA a couple of times. Not great. This higher power, No sorry I gave up drink for me, didn't get support doing it apart from few family members. Friends turned their backs as soon as I was done drinking, One was even trying to tell me I didn't have a problem. Higher power my arse. If there was a higher power, why didn't it prevent me from becoming an alcoholic? Why did it leave me with nothing? Why did it allow people to turn their backs when I needed support? If it can't do these things what's the point in believing. Just needed a rant.

Karen_*

So did you give up drinking all by yourself and with no support at all? Friends who turned their backs on you weren't friends at all really. Thats awful, hope nothing ever goes wrong for them and they never need anyone!

Richie860504

No. I had support off family. Who then got me into an alcohol addiction programme. But that was after years of relapses. I wouldn't hope their life gets messed up to be honest cos as I said 1 was trying to convince me I didn't have a problem which was probably just for his own benefit to justify his drinking.

anixela

Hi, good call with a non drinkers club, whatever it takes to stay sober if that's what you want.

I just wanted to state that i'm a new AA member been around just over 3 months, and i'm not finding it religious at all, when we talk about higher power it's whatever higher power keeps you sober, whether it's a loved one you've lost, the spirit of nature etc whatever you choose, if you choose religion as your higher power than that's your own choice, it's not judgemental. It's a belief that there is something greater than ourselves out there. I struggle and always have with religion and I didn't want it, I thought spirituality and religion were the same thing. But they're not. My belief so far is that there must be something watching out for me something bigger than me or i'd probably be dead by now. I look to the tide going in and out etc, mostly the spirit of nature it just gives me a connection that I find is the beginnings of spirituality for me. It's God as we understand him. You don't even have to call it god. I hope that's positive, that's all I know right now.

Good luck all xx

NonDrinkersClub wrote: »

Yeah - pretty much I don't wouldn't like the forum turning into a rehab spot either

That said, I think any AA member who has something positive to contribute is more than welcome to post here.

I didn't realise that the AA is a bit on the religious side?

Karen_*

Well done on being three months sober.;)

I think the vast majority would have a belief that there is something greater than ourselves and someone or something looking out for us. And if you hit your rock bottom well then its always worth looking at what works for very many people. Even if it doesn't immediately appeal:)

collie50

Ladies,

Please read the AA big book and tell me its not all about religion, come on...

Im not hear to completely distroy AA ,its not for me the bunch of wackos but I was just enquiring if their is any alternative to it. They hold a collection like in Church and finish with prayers and its not religious!!!

The big book states that if you are not a beliver now you will become one over time, I can get the page and quotes if you want!

Karen_*

Well have you found a better and more effective way than the bunch of wackos Collie? Not a very nice comment I must say seeing as though you obviously were asking for input from alcoholics in this thread and some of them would most likely be AA members. Don't ask if you can't have respect for your intended audience.

collie50

Hi Karen,

Sorry didnt mean to offend you, it was an off the cuff comment SORRY.

No I have not found an alternative for AA but am still sober.

100% honest if I was to sit in an AA meeting it would drive me to drink, and once again Im not trying to be hurtful but the self indulgence in AA is beyond believe. Its based on shame and guilt, that's how I read the steps. I could be wrong. But who am I to knock it.

However I do believe its a cult type organisation and anyone who speaks out against the cult should not be tolerated. I hope Im intitled to my opionion!

Col

Karen_*

Thanks for your reply.

Of course you're entitled to your opinion and I myself am not a fan of organisations who claim to be the only option towards either sobriety, one true churches, weightloss etc. I don't like being told how to think either.

I DO know though that AA works for a large amount of people and as long as they're getting sober and going on to a better life for them and their families well then thats brilliant. You can't knock that. And so AA is doing brilliant things in peoples lives. But its not for everyone. I would disagree that you absolutely HAVE to have religion to be in it. And as for your point on the collections - lots of organisations, charities etc have collections. AA aren't funded but are self supporting and they do have to pay the rent for the rooms they use. There aren't any paid memebers there or leaders. Unlike churches or indeed cults.

Its great that you're still sober. How are you doing it and how are you finding it? Well done. An uncle of mine quit drinking and he was a lost cause at one stage. He did it without AA so I am not in anyway saying its the only way to go.

cufroige

Hello there...
My name is cufroige and I am an...only kidding

Just some light hearted humour.

I'm 33 on my next birthday. I wouldn't say I have a problem with drink. My problem is with moderation & that extends also to food, talking ****e & laundry..

Seriously, I am sick of being the eejit who's 'great craic' at my own expense, I'm sick of the hangovers, the tiredness that follows those hangovers for days,
the downers that follow the tiredness & the disorganisation that is the result of all of the above. The bad skin, bloating, weight fluctuations, hangover food binges...the thirst, dehydration, glassy eyes.. I can go on & on

Of course, after all this passes eventually, what do I do? Eh, DRINK!

I get easily pissed, but I also have quite an enormous constitution, which means my drunkenness isn't even a brief thing... I prolong my embarrassment, and yes when I'm drunk I'm one of those 'honest' people..

I'm never aggressive but I let my big mouth flap on about what I think about this & that & what kinda contraception I use & that sometimes I have sexual tendencies that differ..

Without drink I'm not shy, I'm still funny, still confident.. So drink is merely something I partake in out of habit & conditioning..because it's something I have always done...

I am finished waking up with the consequences of drunk me.. It's just not doing me any favours whatsoever! I don't even like the taste of it anymore!

I won't be joining AA. It's not ruining my life or relationships or anything, just my liver, my skin, my figure & my dignity.

:eek::eek::eek:IT'S TIME TO GROW UP MRS!!:eek::eek::eek:

I will admit It's a little daunting when I think of the times I might feel tempted to drink just be around other drunk people (because let's face it, after the neighbors dog barking all night & ****ting in your lawn, drunk people come in a close second in terms of annoying)
there is also the matter of impulse that on a sunny day by the river or a rainy day in the country a pint bottle of bulmers or an irish coffee might whisper something about perfection in your ear...

I'm trying to decide what to do in terms of accountability & committment to making this decision without being 'sent for' should I cave in..

maybe I could start a blog...that would be fun..
I could call it
"No more sex in the city"
haha

Karen_*

I was talking to a barman the other day and he was saying that there's nothing to do if you don't drink. I've found the opposite. I find I've alot more freedom since I gave up drink. I can go to more places and bring the car and I'm always feeling well enough to do dance classes or go on walks etc etc. I've got a new lease of life and I wish I'd done it years ago. I'm loads happier too.

It's a great life. Maybe its not for everyone but it is for me. And there was me thinking life was boring and mundane. Well the pub and club life certainly was. And not to mention the feeling crap and guilty too. That sure wasn't much fun. Nor was it original.

A diary or a blog sounds like a great idea to charter your progress cufroige. Do it like an experiment and have the blog for three months or something thats not too daunting. Then weight up the pros and cons after the three months. Best of luck! You will not regret it!:D

cufroige

Thanks Karen..

I'm gonna do that.. I went off drink before for 6 months & I agree with you, it gives you so much more freedom. And you gain extra days in the week which would have been robbed by hangovers!

Yey for us!!!:D

danger mouse

All well said and done. but what of the people like me who have for years been part of the irish dance music scene involving taking drugs and drinking for days on end..All im left with now after dropping the partying is a lonely apartment and a bottle of jack daniels most nights im not working the next day.

Karen_*

Well that's the choice you've made Dangermouse

danger mouse

Karen_* wrote: »

Well that's the choice you've made Dangermouse

Well tbh we all make stupid choices my impulse to get drunk on my nights of from work are so powerful i cant stop it. It's second nature at this stage. fair play to those who are able to stop drinking id love to give up drinking but i really dont know what i could replace it with at the moment. Hard luck on my part.

Karen_*

Well would you be willing to see a counsellor or go to a support group? Its doesn't just have to be hard luck you.

Compulsions are very hard to overcome but it can be done. There is more to life and you deserve to have more in your life. PM me if you'd like me to point you in the direction of some help:)

crustyjuggler

Theres more to life than the bottle .

McCool

danger mouse wrote: »

Well tbh we all make stupid choices my impulse to get drunk on my nights of from work are so powerful i cant stop it. It's second nature at this stage. fair play to those who are able to stop drinking id love to give up drinking but i really dont know what i could replace it with at the moment. Hard luck on my part.

Hi Dangermouse,

Alcohol and other addictive narcotics nearly always give the heavy user the belief that it cant be replaced. Dont believe it.
Drink used to take up a large percentage of my time and conciousness and I thought life would be too dull without. I was completely wrong.
Is there anything you were into as a youngster before you got into the scene? Anything you want to try out to do? One idea is to plan a major holiday for yourself as a reward for giving up drinking. The worlds your oyster. After you give up you slowly start seeking out alternatives until (and not overnight) drink takes up less and less of your thoughts until eventually your life is filled with other (good) things. Take up stuff and Join clubs to meet people. Get a pair of runners and use the extra time to get fit again. Starting reading about interests you may have had. Meet new people.
Dont believe that there arent alternatives. Its natural to think that because you drink a lot. Anyone else who tells you there arent replacements probably drinks a lot too.

As for the AA stuff mentioned in earlier posts: if you believe that theres a power greater than yourself it implies that you also believe you are not the greatest power in the world. This is important for recovering Alcoholics because they tend to try and carry all their problems on their shoulders all the time, which can eventually drive them back to drink. This enables them to try and deal with their problems by handing them over to a greater power (i.e. not carrying them around with them).
The nature of that power is completely up to the individual. I look at it as the entire universe apart from me. At the end of the day it means I try and sort out any problems as they arise and then I let them go and move on.
AA is spiritual but not religious.

TM

My spouse has done a few stints in residential treatment programmes (one a Minnesota Model/12 Step one which, to me, was a waste of time and money) and has been attending AA for almost a year now almost daily (and sometimes more than once a day). They seem to think that AA helps to keep them sober but personally I have severe reservations about the whole thing, the "programme", the spiritual/quasi religious nature, what I see as the cult like aspects of it, the abrogation of control/responsibility to a higher power/God/the fellowship etc. etc. I have to say that a lot of what is written here strikes a chord with me even if some of it may be a little OTT:

http://www.orange-papers.org/

I have attended some AlAnon meetings mysef as well as the family "therapy" as part of the 12 step residential programme mentioned above and had similar reservations/skepticism (which I voiced to no real avail). Maybe this whole 12 Step thing is for some people but I have to say that it all gives me the creeps - especially being an atheist and no great believer in "spirituality" in general.

Karen_*

When you say there's a cult aspect to AA I can see why you'd see that. I used to think that myself. But the absence of there being any leaders and the fact they look for no money from members would be very un-cultlike. Yes it's a sipritual programme but the higher power is not specified, its up to the individual, their higher power just might be a belief that Aa works or the support of their friends. Again, very uncult like. Catholics in particular seem to hear God mentioned and balk at it but that says more about Catholicism than AA.

TM

Ultimately my own problem with AA/12 step is that it's all predicated on SOME sense of spirituality and, as an atheist (in case you were assuming that I was a Catholic) and somebody who strongly believes in rational/logical/skeptical thinking and has no truck with any form of mumbo jumbo, I personally don't have ANY sense of "spirituality" - especially one that involves abrogating personal responsibility and control to some nebulous "higher power" in order to deal with the issues. This, it seems, has to be a deal breaker when it comes to "believing in" 12 step programmes. And belief/faith IS what it's all predicated on. This is why AlAnon is not for me and why I remain skeptical about how useful AA actually is for my spouse. I would have more confidence in the non AA help that they have been getting recently (e.g. psychological (including cognitive therapies) and psychiatric help, drug treatments etc.) as having been instrumental in them maintaining a relatively successful level of sobriety and balance.

BTW - when you say that there are no leaders this is simply not true. There IS a hierarchy in AA. Albeit they claim that it is an inverted pyramid with the central council subordinate to the individual members rather than the other way around. However I know of at least one AA meeting who have been "excommunicated" because they did not toe whatever line the central organising committee mandated. They didn't even get a chance to deal with whatever issues were involved first.

Karen_*

When you say excommunicated do you mean not allowed to attend meetings anywhere? I don't think that would be likely to happen.

There aren't leaders in it. Long time members maybe but then you can't ask someone to leave it after a period of time. Each person themself decides whether or not they're a member.

I totally see where you're coming from and I'm remembering that I saw it exactly the way you did at one stage. But I learnt more about it and realise that I actually was wrong in alot of my thinkings and assumptions. With all due respect, I'm not saying you're wrong at all. I'm trying to in a very clumsy way say that your views actually aren't off the wall as it DOES seem culty etc until you get a bit more information. Also its definately not perect either, its made up of humans and yes, some humans do get above themselves and think they're above others. In AA they are classed as the dry drunks.

TM

Sorry - the group were "disaffiliated". Obviously individuals were not "banned" from attending any meetings.

I also have a serious problem with AA labelling such as "dry drunks" and so on (and they do employ a lot of cant phrases like that). It always reminds me of the likes of Scientologists calling wayward (former) members "suppressive persons".

I appreciate you taking the time to engage with me on this issue but it looks like we will have to agree to disagree. I don't believe that my views are the result of having insufficient information about or experience of AA/12 step programmes and I don't see them changing.

As I said before - much of what I have read on the Orange Papers website mentioned above tallies with my own views which I arrived at independently and before even being aware of the site.

Karen_*

Yes we will have to agree to disagree. And who's to say who's right? Its probably somewhere in between. Thanks TM

luckylucky

I don't know a whole lot about AA tbh, but there does seem to be a bit of mumo-jumbo about the organisation from what I can gather. Get the impression that they somehow see the alcoholic as a weak person who's inherently flawed which imo is a load of BS.

I quit drinking after reading the Allen Carr Book - different things work for different people and well so far it's worked for me and I would say I agree with about 99% of the stuff in his book. What I liked about it was the positivity - the only things that come to mind that I would disagree with is he says you don't need willpower and his term 'Easyway'. I think you need willpower at certain times, especially over the first few months of quitting - and it sort of helps to have your defense ready in your head ahead of time to deal with it. I'd swap in 'Slightly less difficult Way' for Easyway also

-danny-boy-

collie50 wrote: »

Hi,


Im aware the guys who created this non drinkers forum dont want it to become a rehab spot but do unhooked run meetings in Ireland?

I dont want to be to critical of AA but it does my head right in.
Just cant deal with that religious 12 step higher power stuff!

http://www.deanesmay.com/archives/006854.html

its not all bout god and higher power dats just wat sum people believe in its completey up2 u 2 make wat ever u want as ur higher power it can be a cat a dog a feckin chair in the corner of the room so long as dat it can help keep u clean and sober!:D

-danny-boy-

ne1 online?

TM

luckylucky wrote: »

I don't know a whole lot about AA tbh, but there does seem to be a bit of mumo-jumbo about the organisation from what I can gather. Get the impression that they somehow see the alcoholic as a weak person who's inherently flawed which imo is a load of BS.

It's not an impression - it's a central part of the 12 steps and the wider ethos of the programme/fellowship. Step 6 for example. And lots more like that in the many AA publications.

TM

-danny-boy- wrote: »

its not all bout god and higher power dats just wat sum people believe in its completey up2 u 2 make wat ever u want as ur higher power it can be a cat a dog a feckin chair in the corner of the room so long as dat it can help keep u clean and sober!:D

AA/12 steps is predicated on having SOME sense of spirituality which means it's pointless for those, like me, who don't believe in such mumbo jumbo. The whole higher power thing is at best questionable and at worst sinister in my opinion. Maybe abrogating (some?) responsibility for one's addiction and recovery to some nebulous concept is OK by some people. To me it makes little sense.

BTW - my spouse has fallen off the wagon yet again in spite of all the AA and other help that has been available. Of course the AA people I know just say "not ready yet", "has to fall further", and other platitudinous nonsense like that.

Blisterman

I know of one guy who was an alocholic and tried AA, hated it, and ended up giving up alone.

He said that he considers giving up drink to be one of the proudest things he'd done, and that AA would have taken his achievment away from him, as their whole line is, you have to admit you have no power over your own actions, and recovery is thanks to you asking for it, from a higher power.
I'm not an alcoholic, but I'd be inclined to agree with him. There must be an alternative group, which thinks the same way. If not, someone should start one.

TM

There are alternatives such as SMART Recovery and another one mentioned earlier above but unfortunately I don't think that they operate in Ireland at the moment. I could be wrong.

luckylucky

TM wrote: »

It's not an impression - it's a central part of the 12 steps and the wider ethos of the programme/fellowship. Step 6 for example. And lots more like that in the many AA publications.

Well AA wouldn't have been for me then.

Anyone else have a problem with the term Alcoholic btw, I think it's a very subjective term. I mean when I was a drinker, a teetotaler would have been horrified by the amount I drank and would have had no hesitation in considering me an alcoholic, a 'chronic alcoholic' would have laughed his head off and said get the f outta here if I said I was an alcoholic. A regular drinker would probably think well you might need to cut back a bit, but nah you're not an alcoholic. So which one is it then? One point of view I have on it is that drink itself is the problem and it's all just degrees of how far down you are on the slippery slope that is drinking alcohol.

TM

luckylucky wrote: »

Anyone else have a problem with the term Alcoholic btw, I think it's a very subjective term.

Yes - I do and it is. And with AA if you attend and say that you're an alcoholic then you are and if you say that you're not then you're in denial or (if not drinking) a "dry drunk". Even the medical definitions are woolly. The US DSM-IV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSM-IV) has one definition but remember that these guys used to define homosexuality as a disease too!

collie50

I also know of a case in AA were a person told his sponsor some really private information.

They then had a falling out over something silly.

The sponsor went and told everyone in the group the private information.

Now thats some outfit...

I know it works for some but it just appears to be the blind leading the blind to me.

BTW Im still sober and dont go to AA. Infact they give me the shivers...

Join a gym, read, work, family, hobbies, live life and dont be a AA victim

TM

collie50 wrote: »

I also know of a case in AA were a person told his sponsor some really private information.

They then had a falling out over something silly.

The sponsor went and told everyone in the group the private information.

Now thats some outfit...

To be fair this is outrageous behaviour on the part of an individual and not something that I would imagine AA as a whole would condone. Of course there is nothing to stop it happening and the organization has no powers that I know of to "reprimand" somebody for such a breach of confidence.

I know of incidents of 13th stepping (look it up), one particularly close to home, which is also outrageous but which the organization as a whole will take no responsibility for and individual members just dismiss as the choice of the individuals involved in spite of the havoc that it wreaks on third parties (added to the havoc already wreaked by the addiction in the first place).

Karen_*

I don't think you can blame one adult breaking another adults confidence on an organisation. Well you can but its neither fair nor correct.

If you're not an alcoholic yourself TM then maybe bear in mind that someone else who's reading might have a drink problem that's destroying their life and AA might actually help them. Or maybe not. But when I was drinking and my life was in tatters reading this would have put me off AA. And my life would still be in tatters if I was still alive that is. Post some facts and not your opinion or other opinions and all negative ones for that matter.