lack of subsidised maternity benefit in private sector

candj

I really would like to hear opinions on the need for reform in the area of maternity benefit, for private sector employees in Ireland. I think it is something we need to get talking about, I have contacted several politicians, one recommended that I get people to email their local and government representitives on name.surname@oir.ie

maybe just chatting here will start the ball rolling would love your opinions. By the way I am not affiliated with any political organisation, just considering starting a family and hitting a wall financially

• Most private sector companies do not subsidise state maternity benefit
• this means living on less than minimum wage ( max €280 per week):mad:
• Parental leave is not granted as it is in the public sector, most companies make you take min 7 week bloc unpaid
• No statutory right to paternity leave for the daddies :mad:

work life balance - where are you?????????????:(

_blank_

Moved from News& Media

bored and tired

the company my friend works for has not offered to increase her maternity benefit, however, they did work with her in reducing her 5 day week to 3 day week in last few months, and are offering the same when she comes back. It is only small company with 3 employees but they agreed to advertise part time position to make up her hours, and were happy to accomodate once they were able to hire someone else.

I think its a disgrace that fathers dont get any statutory entitlements, even if it was a week or two, the daddys would be delighted,

I had my daughter before minimum wage, and as i was on a trainee allowance at the time, my maternity benefit was more than my wages due to minimum amount government pay out, Guess who didnt want to go back to work??.

barbiegirl

The lack of a top up of maternity benefit in Ireland is a huge issue for any woman thinking of starting a family. The drop involved with maternity benefit is just huge for me and is one of the main areas of concern in my next wage review. The fairest I have seen is where the company top up to 80% of your normal wage throughout your leave, then if you come back and are in place 3 months the additional 20% is paid as a bonus. Maternity benefit should equal the minimum wage.

candj

Would any of you be interested in joining me in writing to our ministers in a push to have this addressed, I have to say I have contacted several and have had a good response from Denis Naughton, he raised it in the dail on Feb 14th, but his comment was ignored, I have also just received an email from Martin Cullen's office requesting my address so that he can respond to me in writing.. . . . .needless to say so far most of my replies have been thank you for your email etc.come on pleaaaaasssse things will never change if we don't make noise:eek:

I have also written to a couple of radio programmes such as Ray D'arcy and the last word.

SarahMc

No public sector employees get maternity top up.

I'm not sure what you want - for it to be compulsory for all employers to top up maternity pay. This is a no go. It is totally unfeasible for small and medium enterprises.

I do agree that the lack of parental leave is appalling. I also feel that the additional 16 weeks unpaid maternity leave is very unfair, in that few can afford to take it.

You may get somewhere lobbying for a weeks paternity leave and 40 weeks paid maternity leave. But you are undermining your whole message demanding comulsory top-up.

jam_mac_jam

how much do you really expect your employer to pay? your full wages? Is the company going to pay this or the government, you dont think this is going to backfire with small companies being unable to employee women of a certain age. I think there are better ways for money to be spent to be honest.

I agree with you that fathers should have leave but I really dont see why your employer should be forced to top up maternity pay.

candj

Maybe I didn't word this correctly, I am aware that public sector receive top up and that is what I am looking for in the private sector also,

I accept your point on small to medium sized companies, however I feel that employees should be subsidised, as I have pointed out the bills don't stop because you have a baby and are on maternity leave.

Also many small to medium sized companies are in receipt of funding from the government, and I don't think you will find many of the directors of these companies struggling when they are on maternity leave, because, whatever about cutting costs they are certainly not leaving themselves out of pocket

Im my opinion expecting the women who have put years into the private sector, building the economy in this country to survive on LESS than miniumum wage is an insult, and I feel that it is discriminatory. It should be across the board, either we all get it or none of us get it- after all it is the private sector employees tax payments that is providing the top up for the public sector

SarahMc

candj wrote: »

Maybe I didn't word this correctly, I am aware that public sector receive top up and that is what I am looking for in the private sector also,

Public sector employees do NOT get top-up. There collapses your whole argument.

If you are going to lobby, you need to be very succinct and very well briefed!

candj

:mad:Again maybe I am phrasing this incorrectly, i have looked into this and discussed it with some of our elected representitves and the fact is that civil servants, do not experience a loss of income when they are on maternity leave, whether they are topped up or receiving their full normal wage, how the money gets to their bank is not concerning me, the fact is there is no civil servent earning €280 a week while on maternity leave

And you seem to have missed my other points . . .public sector employess benefit much more from the provision of parental leave, because the public sector is more flexible and it is more family friendly. They are certainly not forced to take it in 7 week unpaid blocks, unlike in many private companies

Whether or not you agree with my entire point, surely regardless of the sector you work in a working women should not have to face such a dropin their income when they have children, it is discriminatory.

BostonB

There are public sector workers who are not Politicians and not Civil servants. You are using those terms interchangeably and you really shouldn't. I don't think they've all got the same terms of employment. Perhaps it might be an idea to get the terms and conditions that exist in a few agencies, departments etc, then go from there. Often it comes down to what manager you have in the public sector as well.

I think what you are suggesting isn't a bad idea in principle. You need to be able to list the various conditions that exist that you are looking for, perhaps even compare and contrast them with other EU countries. At the moment you don't seem clear on the specifics.

Carrigart Exile

Playing devils advocate here but you would be challenged along these lines:-

if you want to have children make sure you can afford them, don't expect everyone else to pick up the tab for them. If that means you and hubby have to forego holidays in the sun then that's a choice you make.

Nevyn

That maybe but the family has special status as per the constitution and so is meant to be protected and supported by the stated.

Ludo

erm....special status in the constitution doesnt mean that families have to be paid for by the state. Using that arguement, if I lost my job, the state should pay my mortgage and buy all the food I need just coz I have a family. In fact they should be doing it right now regardless of whether I have a job or not. And throw in all my utility bills also.

Don't think it works that way somehow and it shouldn't work that way.

People gotta be responsible and live within their means...but of course that is a pie in the sky notion to some people.

Having said all that, the maternity benefits suck here and don't even get me started on parental leave or the non-existent paternity benefits.

Shelli

While I don't think that companys should be forced to top up maternity benefit, I do think that the maximum paid benefit itself should be raised to at least the minimum wage.
Paternity leave is also a huge issue, 0 days entitlement for a father!! What a joke! My OH got two days from his company and we were counting ourselves lucky.

And while were on the subject of lobbying for parents rights, what about the right to privately harvest and store cord blood cells?? What would that cost the government? Nothing except a little bit of paperwork!

squire1

Shelli wrote: »

While I don't think that companys should be forced to top up maternity benefit, I do think that the maximum paid benefit itself should be raised to at least the minimum wage.

THAT is the issue worth pursuing.

Using the argument that just because the public sector do it/get it is reason enough to demand the same conditions in the private sector is heading down the wrong road altogether. The country is bad enough without the private sector being encouraged to mimic the public sector in any way.

You can not expect that the private sector pay for peoples lifestyle choices. If it is a social issue, then it should be funded by government not corporations.

Nevyn

Lifestlye choice....

That is a pretty inflamatory term around these parts tbh, if there were no children the human race would grind to a halt, there would be no one to play taxes for when you are drawing your pension.

The decline in the birth rate of people who have a 3rd level education, those that are the so called middle classes is a concern as it seems you either have to be very wealthy or be on welfare to have children, which does not bode well for child poverty rates and what our society will be like in the future.

Currently we do have a high birth rate but it will fall off like it has in other EU countries where the governments are bending over backward to help people have children.

While I don't expect Ireland to suddenly adopt the Swedish models we could learn a lot from Belgium and France.

squire1

Apologies, "lifestyle choice" was not meant in terms of choosing to have kids but rather how much money people decide they need to maintain their lifestyle while on maternity leave. If you cant survive on the maternity benefit then maybe a bit of budgeting/saving is required rather than expecting the private sector to subsidise your "lifestyle". Or better still, lobby the government to increase the maternity benefit.;)

I would never consider having kids as being a "lifestyle choice", personally I would consider it a lifestyle necessity.

candj

Carrigart Exile wrote: »

Playing devils advocate here but you would be challenged along these lines:-

if you want to have children make sure you can afford them, don't expect everyone else to pick up the tab for them. If that means you and hubby have to forego holidays in the sun then that's a choice you make.

Actually we are not married - this is a lifestyle choice- we own a home together, so before anyone jumps on the single parent thing that is not of interest to me, we both work fulltime and are currently both continuing study part time so that when we decide the time is right,w e will be in a position to afford the family and the lifestyle we want for our children.

Yes maybe my public v private sector is going off the point,

the parental leave in my opinion should be more flexible, fathers should have paternity leave entitlement and I still think that to expect a woman to take home less than minimum wage regardless of her contribution to the work force is insulting.

SarahMc

candj wrote: »

:mad:Again maybe I am phrasing this incorrectly, i have looked into this and discussed it with some of our elected representitves and the fact is that civil servants, do not experience a loss of income when they are on maternity leave, whether they are topped up or receiving their full normal wage, how the money gets to their bank is not concerning me, the fact is there is no civil servent earning €280 a week while on maternity leave.

OK, this is my third and last time saying this. YOUR INFORMATION IS INCORRECT, CIVIL SERVANTS DO NOT GET MATERNITY TOP UP. I know, I am a civil servant, and have been on maternity leave!

Shelli's point about bringing maternity payment in line with minimum wage is very valid and worth lobbying for.

BostonB

candj wrote: »

Actually we are not married - this is a lifestyle choice- we own a home together, so before anyone jumps on the single parent thing that is not of interest to me, we both work fulltime and are currently both continuing study part time so that when we decide the time is right,w e will be in a position to afford the family and the lifestyle we want for our children....

Great having a plan but nature doesn't always work to a plan. For some it takes years of trying to have kids. Or you have one and then there's a big gap before the second etc. Just bear that in mind.

jam_mac_jam

candj wrote: »

:mad:Again maybe I am phrasing this incorrectly, i have looked into this and discussed it with some of our elected representitves and the fact is that civil servants, do not experience a loss of income when they are on maternity leave, whether they are topped up or receiving their full normal wage, how the money gets to their bank is not concerning me, the fact is there is no civil servent earning €280 a week while on maternity leave

And you seem to have missed my other points . . .public sector employess benefit much more from the provision of parental leave, because the public sector is more flexible and it is more family friendly. They are certainly not forced to take it in 7 week unpaid blocks, unlike in many private companies

Whether or not you agree with my entire point, surely regardless of the sector you work in a working women should not have to face such a dropin their income when they have children, it is discriminatory.

discriminatory against who? Certainly not against people who choose not to have kids. Save up some money for a few months and pay for it yourself why should companies which may not be able to afford this have to pay it, who exactly do you think should pay for your kids? are you going to support higher prices or taxes to pay for this or do you think you are just entitled to it because you are female?

nesf

I'm repeating someone else's point but it bears repeating. Forcing private companies to top up maternity leave would just create incentives not to hire married women of childbearing age. This would unequivocally be a bad thing. No amount of anti-discrimination legislation is enough if you stack the incentives against hiring a certain group high enough etc. There are already incentives for companies not to hire these women because of the hassle that maternity leave causes when the employee is hard to replace, making companies pay out extra on top of this would just make things worse.*



*I'm not saying this is right or how it should be, I'm just describing how it is.

Nevyn

Well there is one way around it, in iceland both parents get 3 months paid leave.

nesf

Who pays for it though?

Shelli

Thaedydal wrote: »

Well there is one way around it, in iceland both parents get 3 months paid leave.

Thats a great idea, or even better still, the 6 months paid and 14 weeks unpaid should be split between the parents in whatever way they see fit.

I know I would have given my OH 3-4 weeks of my leave.

Kernel32

In case anyone missed it there is a lot of economic distress across the board right now. Ireland is getting hit pretty bad. Here is an article I just read in a magazine I get every week, Ireland: The End of the Miracle

It's a global economy. If you put too much pressure on a private company they will move on plain and simple. I'm not against paternity leave in particular. I have two kids of my own and I had to use my vacation time when my kids were born. But I also don't think that private companies should or can shoulder the cost. It's a social program that would need to be funded by taxes and managed by government.

nesf

Kernel32 wrote: »

In case anyone missed it there is a lot of economic distress across the board right now. Ireland is getting hit pretty bad. Here is an article I just read in a magazine I get every week, Ireland: The End of the Miracle

It's taking an overly pessimistic view imho. Rapid economic growth is something that happens to countries that are catching up on the leaders. We were always going to slow down to 3ish% a year growth if not lower. It was in no more a miracle than the Asian Tigers or Japan. We will have a slowdown but it was always coming and there's nothing anyone can do about it unless we can keep a very large stream of immigrants coming into this country (which is untenable) then growth has to slow down. We need to adapt to not having the economy grow at a huge pace every year, and this will be painful at first, but it's all part of the normal process of these things.

Kernel32

nesf wrote: »

It's taking an overly pessimistic view imho. Rapid economic growth is something that happens to countries that are catching up on the leaders. We were always going to slow down to 3ish% a year growth if not lower. It was in no more a miracle than the Asian Tigers or Japan. We will have a slowdown but it was always coming and there's nothing anyone can do about it unless we can keep a very large stream of immigrants coming into this country (which is untenable) then growth has to slow down. We need to adapt to not having the economy grow at a huge pace every year, and this will be painful at first, but it's all part of the normal process of these things.

I agree to a point. I always feel like economic decline gets overblown by the media. But Ireland like a lot of other countries in the past and present fell into the age old economic trap. As the economy got better everyone wanted more, more money, more houses, more consumer goods. The end result is that as the inevitable leveling off of the economy happens you are left with a country that is no longer competitive in the global economy. The leveling off then starts to be become a decline, then a shrinkage and then a nosedive until the economy balances with the rest of the world. This can be a very painful experience for people who have gotten used to "more everything" economy, particularly those raised in it and haven't experienced a downturn before.

nesf

Kernel32 wrote: »

I agree to a point. I always feel like economic decline gets overblown by the media. But Ireland like a lot of other countries in the past and present fell into the age old economic trap. As the economy got better everyone wanted more, more money, more houses, more consumer goods. The end result is that as the inevitable leveling off of the economy happens you are left with a country that is no longer competitive in the global economy. The leveling off then starts to be become a decline, then a shrinkage and then a nosedive until the economy balances with the rest of the world. This can be a very painful experience for people who have gotten used to "more everything" economy, particularly those raised in it and haven't experienced a downturn before.

Like I said, painful. It'll be toughest on those who don't remember the 80s.

The_Conductor

candj wrote:

:mad:Again maybe I am phrasing this incorrectly, i have looked into this and discussed it with some of our elected representitves and the fact is that civil servants, do not experience a loss of income when they are on maternity leave, whether they are topped up or receiving their full normal wage, how the money gets to their bank is not concerning me, the fact is there is no civil servent earning €280 a week while on maternity leave

And you seem to have missed my other points . . .public sector employess benefit much more from the provision of parental leave, because the public sector is more flexible and it is more family friendly. They are certainly not forced to take it in 7 week unpaid blocks, unlike in many private companies

Whether or not you agree with my entire point, surely regardless of the sector you work in a working women should not have to face such a dropin their income when they have children, it is discriminatory.

I'm a civil servant, as is my wife. If we choose to have children she is entitled to 18 weeks paid maternity leave, there is no top-up, it is the statutory payment, fullstop. I don't know where you are getting your information from about top-ups, you can be certain that they follow the letter of the law in the civil service, nothing more, nothing less. She can also elect to take an additional 8 weeks unpaid leave in a block, which must run concurrent to the statutory leave- this must be applied for prior to commencement of the maternity leave. We do have paternity leave- its all of 3 days though, and fathers taking annual leave or unpaid leave to be with their new children are at the mercy of their managers. The major family friendly policy in the civil service is "Term-Time" which is a block of 8,10 or 13 weeks unpaid leave in the summer months so a parent can take care of their children while the schools are on holiday. Its unpaid leave though- a lot of people simply can't afford to take it- in addition it has knock on effects on pension rights and PRSI payments, which may affect dental/optical care, which a lot of people don't take onboard.

There is a lot of lip-service given to "family friendly policies" in the civil service, in practice these are entirely at the mercy of management and if its decided that a particular section is busy and can't afford to loose a staff member for a block of time, even if it is unpaid leave, more often than not its simply refused. Flexitime may nominally exist in different departments, but once again it is not applied as a right, and is entirely contingent on work allowing. This resulted in a number of cases being taken to the LRC by the unions in support of their members, before civil servants gave up the right to use labour relations mechanisms as part of benchmarking.

I really don't understand how you are angry at benefits and rights in the civil service versus those in the private sector. In many cases the rights in the private sector, depending on the particular industry, may in fact vastly exceed those in the civil service (particularly in some areas such as educational leave for professional examinations). Have a chat with any women in the civil service who have children- you'll very quickly discover its not the nirvana that the public appear to think it is.........

bored and tired

Candj, maternity benefit as any other benefit is funded by taxes, The public sector as well as company directors pay taxes too believe it or not!

In fact company directors pay a double tax, as they are taxed on their income and do not recieve the same PRSI tax credits as employees receive, But they also pay corporation tax on the profits of the company, if they decide to take a dividend from the company this is taxed also. In addition they are NOT entitled to many treatment benefits, such as the dental treatment scheme,.

It is not as easy at it may seem in a small business to just pay yourself during your maternity leave and hope for the best that the company that you have built from scratch, that the employees who depend on you to maintain their jobs will get on with things without you, while you nurse your newborn, LIFE doesnt work like that, many small company directors put in 80 hour weeks, working 9-6 mon to friday or saturday, and then doing paper work on top of that,

Alos to say that maternity benefit should be taken on its own and hoisted aloft, that no woman should receive €280 a week as it is discriminatory, is forgeting the thousands of other people who are on other benefits and struggling,. Should maternity benefit be increased to the detriment off the others??

Unemployment benefit,
widows pension,
lone parents allowance,
disability illness benefit, etc,

I can tell you that it is no joke to suddenly find yourself on the flat of your back needing help to get out of bed and the slow realisation that no you are not getting better, no you will not be back in work in a few weeks, and yes the mortgage has to paid even though now your partner is now supporting you, your child, your childminder, you now have a housekeeper you never had before and also paying for your gps pension plan. and probably his childrens college fund as well.,

At least when you find yourself pregnant, either planned or unexpected, you have a life line of 7 months to save, adjust your life style. buy essentials on sale, Your income of €280 from the state is tax free so when you go back to work you could receive a larger pay cheque than before you went on maternity leave as your tax credits have accumulated, if you are married you could have offset them to your husbands account, so that his takehome pay while you are on maternity benefit is larger.

And if you are really poverty striken, and cannot afford the essentials, the Communtiy welfare officer will be able to help you fill out forms on how to apply for accomodation, emergency/essential needs payments, will point you in the direction of MABS for budgeting advice etc.

Having said all that, the system hear is archaic, fathers should have a legal right, to paid paternity leave of some amount, to ensure that they are there when there children are born and are not penalised financially for doing so.

However the rights and wrongs off the system here, we can all agree that things have improved over the last 10 years, maternity leave is now longer and substantially more than what it was, Family friendly work practices are buzzwords around offices that have managers running scared that they had never heard off before, and it is now a right to apply for unpaid parental leave for children, regardless of company policy on if and how it can be taken, from a country where 50 years ago married women didnt really work unless they were teachers or nurses we have come a long way.