Posting Reveals

6th

Ok keep the dicussions about posting reveals etc to this thread. There is also a poll to gauge peoples opinions.

Popinjay

Yes, as long as Spoiler Tags are used.

I voted never but I think this clarifies my position a little better.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=55498211&postcount=6

r3nu4l

This is already a very good forum and I'm happy with the way it's going so far. I'd really like to hear the opinions of M&I practitioners so I'd like those users in particular to post some comment rather than just voting on the thread.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of reveals but I'm not totally against them either but this isn't about me. As a mod, I'm here to keep the peace and tidy up errant posts etc. that's all. As a poster I'm here to discuss M&I.

6th

I'd agree with you on a fair bit of that Popinjay. I dont think reveals should be posted for the sake of it but if someone shows an interest and asks how something is done, or indeed thinks they know how I see no problem with people who know using spoiler tags and clarifying or helping out. Obviously if people chose not to share thats their choice.

No one is going to be forced to give information.

6th

r3nu4l wrote: »

As a mod, I'm here to keep the peace and tidy up errant posts etc. that's all. As a poster I'm here to discuss M&I.

Same here. Ideally I'd like to take my mod hat off as much as possible.

zuroph

Yes, as long as Spoiler Tags are used.

can i give a case example?

I do a trick "linking mints", where i link two polo mints together and hand them out as a souvenir. the trick is difficult to find. Iv had other magicians message me and ask me where it can be gotten, and ive told them no problem.
iv had others message me and ask me how its done, i wont tell them, because someone is selling it, and id be reducing his product value.

However i have a better handling for the trick than the one which comes supplied, and if someone proves to me they've bought the trick, i have discussed the better handling at depth with them via PM. I have no problem with discussing methods or better ways of performing, i just dont want to be giving the secrets out to people who wont even invest in it.

6th

If people ask others have the option of answering or not.

zuroph

Yes, as long as Spoiler Tags are used.

i agree, im just trying to prove im not totally against helping others learn! i just like it to be in private.

6th

Well if anyone sees anything thats dodgy so far on the forum feel free to report it.

humanji

I voted for the third option (which I assume also means that the tricks aren't protected by law). Although I understand why some people don't want their tricks to be publically explained, I thought one of the reasons for the forum was to help people learn some tricks. I've no intention in becoming a world class magician, I just want to learn some simple tricks to impress my nephew (and look like the cool uncle) and also my friends when they're drunk.

If someone has a trick that they don't want to world at large to know about, then don't tell anyone. It's that simple. As Zuroph said, (and several others, I think), if you want to discuss personal tricks, then take it to PM.

But even if all tricks are discussed, I can see that really damaging anyones career (as long as you keep your A material to yourself. I was talking to a mate of mine who is a professional magician and a member of the Magic Circle, and amongst other points, he told me:

My Mate Seb wrote:

"I know for a fact that people can know the method to a trick and be shown that same trick and be baffled - not recognising it as the same trick. It is the moto of the magic circle: People is well fik."

And I'm one of these idiots he's talking about. I know how to do loads of tricks (as in I know their mechanics. My talent is quite lacking), but I'm still amazed when I see them performed. To the average Joe, knowing how a trick is done means very little to them. But if a rival magician was intent on stealing your ideas and using them themselves, then not allowing the reveals on this site won't stop them.

So all in all, I'm trying to say that there's no point in not showing how tricks are done as it doesn't really serve any purpose, IMO. I'm sure I have more to say on the subject, but I've rambled on for long enough and I'm pretty sure nobody's still reading this...





edit: oh, and I forgot an important point that was brought up at the start of the feedback thread and only remembered by me because I decided to read the rest of the thread. Is there meant to be an option for a private sub-forum, or is that being ignored, or included in option 3?

biko

No, they should never be posted publically

My "magic" stretches solely to coins, cards and other unprepared things - i.e. very basic stuff. Most of the tricks I know I have picked up on the net, on youtube and similar sites.
The tricks I do wouldn't be performed by a proper stage magician as they are considered party tricks I believe.

Popinjay

Yes, as long as Spoiler Tags are used.

zuroph wrote: »

can i give a case example?

I do a trick "linking mints", where i link two polo mints together and hand them out as a souvenir. the trick is difficult to find. Iv had other magicians message me and ask me where it can be gotten, and ive told them no problem.
iv had others message me and ask me how its done, i wont tell them, because someone is selling it, and id be reducing his product value.

However i have a better handling for the trick than the one which comes supplied, and if someone proves to me they've bought the trick, i have discussed the better handling at depth with them via PM. I have no problem with discussing methods or better ways of performing, i just dont want to be giving the secrets out to people who wont even invest in it.

That all seems pretty fair to me. I like teaching people tricks, it makes me feel all big and clever. But at the same time, there's no point in telling every Thomas, Richard and Harold every little secret. The not passing on of advice on how to replicate tricks purchased online doesn't really apply to me as I tend to make my gimmicks myself as opposed to buying them some of those I'll pass on and some I won't because they might be in use in a show or be lined-up for possible use. As I said, since I don't perform myself any more, I have a contract limiting me from saying certain things. That aside, I'll help anyone who wants to learn.

oeb

Yes, as long as Spoiler Tags are used.

Hi guys, I'm not a regular boards.ie user, but I hope to be now that this new sub forum is here. This thread was pointed out to me by a fellow practicing magician in Ireland, and here are my thoughts on the subject.

I am very very strongly against exposure. There are a lot of people in Ireland who make their living from magic (Be it buskers or kids parties or weddings) and exposure puts that at risk. As it is, between youtube, e-mule and bit torrent we have a hard enough time at it. All it takes is one vocal smart ass in the audience who has looked up how these tricks are yaps to his mates. All of a sudden a gig that was going well and could potentially have landed you more bookings is in shambles. The amazing magic that was mystifying everyone only twenty minutes ago is quickly reduced to "He was a bit crap really, Bill knew how it was all done and it turns out it was pretty simple". Experienced magicians can handle this in most situations, but what happens to the young fellow on his first gig?

We worked very hard and spent a lot of money to get where we are now. This not only gives us a better sense of value towards the 'secrets' of magic, but I believe it also makes us better magicians. When we go out and spend 130 euro on something like Card College (One of the best introductions to card magic that there is) we are an awful lot more likely to spend time working through it than someone who spends 30 seconds finding out how to do some tricks on youtube. We are also a lot more likely to have staying power. Generally we are much less likely to preform 'crap tricks'. We are also much less likely to tell people how the effects are done. Look at any magic forum out there, all of them are strongly anti-exposure. Even the ones that are not affiliated with online stores.

Exposure adds nothing to magic, and it takes away a lot. Anyone who asks me about getting into magic is an awful lot more likely to get real benefit out of my recommendation of 'Mark Wilson's Complete Course in Magic' or 'Bobo's Modern Coin Magic' than they are of a recommendation of "Go to youtube and type in 'magic trick tutorial'".

I am happy to check back here regularly and give anyone that wants help a nudge in the right direction. Provided that it remains anti-exposure. I promise you that I will not be the only magician who feels this way. We tend to be a generally helpful bunch (If a bit full of ourselves).

Cheers,
Ian

r3nu4l

Thanks for taking the time to comment guys. Keep 'em coming.

humanji

oeb wrote: »

Experienced magicians can handle this in most situations, but what happens to the young fellow on his first gig?

But that's how you become experienced. A magician is an entertainer, and like all other entertainers, their first duty is to the audience. They have to engage the audience and keep them entertained. If they're failing then they need to work harder. If someone heckles them, they have to learn how to deal with that, the same way comedians or musicians have to. In fact, I'd go as far as saying it's in the magicians best interest to have people spot how things are done and heckle them. It'll be a bit of a blow to confidence at first, but it'll build character in the long run. If being heckled at your first gig is enough to make you quit then you had no place being in the business in the first place.

Voodu Child

Yes, as long as Spoiler Tags are used.

I voted never, but tbh the poll needed an option for 'private subforum'.

The magicians code is about keeping reveals from casual passerbyers, hecklers, non-magicians etc. Once someone has shown some kind of an interest theres no problem at all; that's the same principal that magic books and shops work on - if you've gone out of your way to track something down (and put a value on it), then the chances are, whether you know it or not, you could be classed as an 'amatuer magician'.

The problem with putting reveals on a public forum, is that NO EFFORT is required, or no interest, or respect or enthusiasm. But the simple act of introducing yourself, making a few posts, showing that you have respect for the non-exposure rule, well, thats more than enough to keep most guys happy.

Anyone who asks me about getting into magic is an awful lot more likely to get real benefit out of my recommendation of 'Mark Wilson's Complete Course in Magic

Thats the one that weighs a tonne isn't it? Still have that in the attic somewhere, remember getting it for about my 10th birthday, could barely lift it

r3nu4l

voodoo_child wrote: »

I voted never, but tbh the poll needed an option for 'private subforum'.

No it didn't, we're already trying to see if we can get that
this is just about 'reveals'

6th

I've put in a request for the sub forum now its a case of sitting and waiting to see if we get it.

We've put it to the public and its looking like discussion of tricks will be allowed but I think if that is the case spoilers will be used.

Voodu Child

Yes, as long as Spoiler Tags are used.

6th wrote: »

I've put in a request for the sub forum now its a case of sitting and waiting to see if we get it.

We've put it to the public and its looking like discussion of tricks will be allowed but I think if that is the case spoilers will be used.

If you've put in a request for a sub-forum, I presume this poll is temporary?
ie, as soon as the private forum comes into place, reveals will be private forum only?

If we're going to allow reveals on both forums, I don't see what the private forum achieves?

Sherifu

Yes, as long as Spoiler Tags are used.

The poll is meaningless if we're gonna put all the reveals in the sub-forum.
The sub-forum is pointless if we allow reveals here.
That's my take on it anyway.

r3nu4l

voodoo_child wrote: »

If you've put in a request for a sub-forum, I presume this poll is temporary?
ie, as soon as the private forum comes into place, reveals will be private forum only?

If we're going to allow reveals on both forums, I don't see what the private forum achieves?

Sherifu wrote: »

The poll is meaningless if we're gonna put all the reveals in the sub-forum.
The sub-forum is pointless if we allow reveals here.
That's my take on it anyway.

Give us a little time to work this out...it is an issue!

6th

If this poll says reveals are allowed then they will be allowed, except where they are protected by copyright etc. The posting of anything that is protected should be reported and will be dealt with.

I see no problem with small tricks being discussed but if the sub forum is made it might be a place for experienced magicians and enthusiastic amateurs to discuss tricks in more detail, discuss development of new tricks etc.

Thats the end of it on the private forum until we get it ... or dont.

We were asked to put it to public vote about reveals and thats what we have done. Some people may not like the results, whatever the end up being.

oeb

Yes, as long as Spoiler Tags are used.

6th wrote: »

If this poll says reveals are allowed then they will be allowed, except where they are protected by copyright etc. The posting of anything that is protected should be reported and will be dealt with.

Copyright when it comes to trade secrets and magic tricks are a grey area. Unless a production is reproduced exactly as it is (For example offering DVD downloads here) then little can be done. It is very difficult to copyright *the method* of accomplishing something. A mechanical gimmick, sure, but the fact that this is a trick that involves a few DL and a flustration count? Not so easy.

For example elusionist have a dvd called stigmata. Banachek (I think) also teaches an effect that is practically the same in an earlier publication of his. The likes of McDonald's Aces have been published by everyone from Dai Vernon, to Ammar, to Ortiz (All of which are still in publication). Is it ethical to publish these effects?

Something like 'This that and the other' which was posted as an exposure video here is sold in nearly every magic shop in the world as 'Colour Monte' and is one of the highest selling packet tricks available. Is it ethical to publish this?

6th

Ok this poll will close at 12 noon tomorrow. GMT.

humanji

Oh, another point is, shouldn't there really only be two options here then? I mean, if someone posts a reveal, it's pretty much going to be obvious it's a reveal (unless they're just being obtuse jerks for some reason). So what we have here is the amount of yes votes being split and as a result giving a yes vote less power (kind of like gerrymandering, I guess).

So currently, option a = 12, b = 8 and c = 8. If no one else votes for a or c and the votes for b go up to 13, No will win even though 20 people have voted yes.

Sorry to bring that up, it's late and I'm trying to avoid work. There are smarter and better equiped people to discuss this. I'll go back to my box.

6th

In fairness I think if reveals go ahead then it will be with spoilers to give people the option of viewing them or not.

oeb

Yes, as long as Spoiler Tags are used.

Beware, if you allow reveals and exposures you are unlikely to be taken seriously by professional magicians. A magic forum that only attracts hobbiests can quickly become nothing more than 'I found this video online, take a look'

And that is reveals of any kind, spoiler tags or not.

Voodu Child

Yes, as long as Spoiler Tags are used.

Sherifu wrote: »

The poll is meaningless if we're gonna put all the reveals in the sub-forum.
The sub-forum is pointless if we allow reveals here.
That's my take on it anyway.

I agree. If a sub-forum for reveals has already been requested then surely this whole issue has been resolved? Reveals in the sub-forum and open discussion of everything else here.
/end issue

humanji wrote: »

Oh, another point is, shouldn't there really only be two options here then? I mean, if someone posts a reveal, it's pretty much going to be obvious it's a reveal (unless they're just being obtuse jerks for some reason). So what we have here is the amount of yes votes being split and as a result giving a yes vote less power (kind of like gerrymandering, I guess).

So currently, option a = 12, b = 8 and c = 8. If no one else votes for a or c and the votes for b go up to 13, No will win even though 20 people have voted yes.

Sorry to bring that up, it's late and I'm trying to avoid work. There are smarter and better equiped people to discuss this. I'll go back to my box.

No, you're right. Even though im on the other side of the issue, the whole thing is very bizarre. Very poorly thought out poll.

And the 'spoilers' suggestion....that's pretty useless/stupid tbh. The issue revolves around exposure, not 'spoiling an effect' in the same sense that you'd use spoilers in a movie forum. Whoever came up with that as a viable suggestion has COMPLETELY missed the whole point of the isse :rolleyes:

And on top of that, we've got people voting who haven't even made any contribution to the forum in the weeks that it's been online.

The whole thing is rendered irrelevant on so many fronts. Farce tbh.

r3nu4l

voodoo_child wrote: »

I agree. If a sub-forum for reveals has already been requested then surely this whole issue has been resolved? Reveals in the sub-forum and open discussion of everything else here.
/end issue

We don't yet have a sub-forum approved, therefore the poll is necessary

And the 'spoilers' suggestion....that's pretty useless/stupid tbh. The issue revolves around exposure, not 'spoiling an effect' in the same sense that you'd use spoilers in a movie forum. Whoever came up with that as a viable suggestion has COMPLETELY missed the whole point of the isse :rolleyes:

Wrong again, people who don't want the trick spoiled for them, won't read the spoiler...simple really. At the end of the day we want to do what the majority want, not the few! I don't want reveals in the forum but if that's what the majority want, so be it.

And on top of that, we've got people voting who haven't even made any contribution to the forum in the weeks that it's been online.

Now that you are right about and it has been noted and will be considered.

Sherifu

Yes, as long as Spoiler Tags are used.

There was a reason the original request was for a private forum. Somewhere along the line that changed and things will be messy until we sort it out. Have to say I thought the same as above about some of the voters in the poll. They have their opinions but I hope they'll use the forum after as I think some haven't posted here at all yet. If the sub-forum is granted it's logical for all the reveals to go there since that's why it was created. If not we have the result of this poll.

Voodu Child

Yes, as long as Spoiler Tags are used.

r3nu4l wrote: »

Wrong again, people who don't want the trick spoiled for them, won't read the spoiler...simple really. At the end of the day we want to do what the majority want, not the few! I don't want reveals in the forum but if that's what the majority want, so be it.

Im not wrong - if that (spoilers) is an issue, it's another issue. A different one to the one that caused this debate. People who don't want spoilers revealed to them are a different group and a different issue to people who don't want exposure on a public forum. Two different issues, with different reasons and objections.

6th

voodoo_child wrote: »

And on top of that, we've got people voting who haven't even made any contribution to the forum in the weeks that it's been online.

So some of the people havent posted on the forum, someone who just reads the forum has as much of a right to how it goes. This is a Boards.ie Forum for Boards.ie users when we start saying some people have more rights than others it starts becoming a load of crap. How about we give people more of a say on it based on join date or post count?

We were asked to put it to the public vote and we did - someone people were bound not to get their way.

Voodoo child, you know and can read who started the threads you have issues with - saying things are stupid and poorly thought out and pretending you are taking to no one in particular wont fly with me.

6th

Sherifu wrote: »

There was a reason the original request was for a private forum. Somewhere along the line that changed and things will be messy until we sort it out.

Well I was the one who brought it up and it was the first time a forum of this type had ever been requested. I did initially suggest it be private but the majority of people who posted said it should be public. Now that its been made we have people who may never have posted on the request thread asking for it to be one way and the people who asked for it and it was made for asking for it to be another.

You cant please all of the people all of the time.

Voodu Child

Yes, as long as Spoiler Tags are used.

6th wrote: »

Voodoo child, you know and can read who started the threads you have issues with - saying things are stupid and poorly thought out and pretending you are taking to no one in particular wont fly with me.

Fine, i'll apologise for 'stupid' but not for poorly thought out. It is poorly thought out, that's not a personal attack but an observation and an opinion. The reasoning behind it was explained in the post, if you have an issue with the reasoning feel free to debate it. Spoilers tags and exposure are two different issues.

6th

Thats fine enough. This is all being done in a rush, as soon as it became an issue we started looking at it. As with any new forum there are teething problems.

As it happens I might have a solution which keeps everyone happy. I'll discuss it with r3nu4l and post about it when we get the results of the poll. Please lets just see how this goes.

r3nu4l

6th wrote: »

Thats fine enough. This is all being done in a rush, as soon as it became an issue we started looking at it. As with any new forum there are teething problems.

As it happens I might have a solution which keeps everyone happy. I'll discuss it with r3nu4l and post about it when we get the results of the poll. Please lets just see how this goes.

Agreed, 6th and I are in discussion. The poll itself is not the deciding factor per se, it's just a poll to see how people feel. There are other options but the poll is just there to 'get the lie of the land'!

We'll chat again tomorrow In the meantime there will be no more reveals until the issue is sorted

zuroph

Yes, as long as Spoiler Tags are used.

*reveals himself*

muhahahaha!

Sherifu

Yes, as long as Spoiler Tags are used.

So now there's a sub-forum, what happens with the poll?

r3nu4l

It closes at Midday and we'll have a look and decide what to do. The feedback thread no doubt attracted people who just voted for the hell of it and never intend to contribute to the forum, however, some voters do have a genuine interest so we need to look carefully and come to a decision.

Sherifu

Yes, as long as Spoiler Tags are used.

Great. Looking forward to getting back to discussing magic soon.

6th

r3nu4l wrote: »

The feedback thread no doubt attracted people who just voted for the hell of it and never intend to contribute to the forum

In fairness these are possible the same people who showed support when the forum was suggested. Alot of the names in that thread havent posted here yet and alot of the people posting here didnt post in the suggestion thread.

Sherifu wrote: »

Great. Looking forward to getting back to discussing magic soon.

Nothing stopping people from discussing magic as it is.

Sherifu

Yes, as long as Spoiler Tags are used.

6th wrote: »

Nothing stopping people from discussing magic as it is.

Except for reveals until this is resolved which are what i'm most interested in.

zuroph

Yes, as long as Spoiler Tags are used.

All of you are banned for one month.

*tada!*

6th

Sherifu wrote: »

Except for reveals until this is resolved which are what i'm most interested in.

So you're here for the reveals? Is this the kind of person the magicians are talking about when they say they dont want tricks posted publically?

Sherifu

Yes, as long as Spoiler Tags are used.

6th wrote: »

So you're here for the reveals? Is this the kind of person the magicians are talking about when they say they dont want tricks posted publically?

I would think so.

6th

Poll closed.

Popinjay

Yes, as long as Spoiler Tags are used.

*Awaits resulting outcome with baited breath.*

Ah, sure I'll still post anyway. They haven't been spoilered (Hey mom, I made a noun!) yet and the forum's doing pretty well I think. So who's going to perform at the next beers then? Bags not it!

horgan_p

why not do what magic bunny do ?

a sub forum where you have to apply for access.
mods dish out the access depending on how much the poster contributes to the forum.

6th

horgan_p wrote: »

why not do what magic bunny do ?

a sub forum where you have to apply for access.
mods dish out the access depending on how much the poster contributes to the forum.

Thats what we have done

humanji

So who do we f*ck to get access then? I already have a hectic schedule trying to sleep my way to being an admin (at least that's how DeVore said I could do it. But it has been 3 years now...).

Mr Magnolia

No, they should never be posted publically

I'm subbed to the M/I forum since it started. I'll be interested to see what can be discussed in the main forum without them. Time will tell though, continued good luck with the forum