Bertie Ahern's background

The Chessplayer

Can anyone shed some light on Bertie Ahern's early life? I was just thinking about the common perception of him being that of a working-class lad made good, of humble beginnings and so forth. How accurate is this? Is it not the case that he had a comfortable middle-class upbringing - with a third level education which, at the time, would have been unheard of among the working class? Just curious as to how authentic the whole salt of the earth image is, because it seems to be used every now and again in his defence by some commentators.

Sherifu

http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/index.asp?locID=189&docID=-1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertie_Ahern

IRLConor

I notice UCD is still on his CV. Did anyone manage to confirm whether he went there or not? He's also listed as an accountant, did he ever qualify?

murphaph

The media should go after the shadier aspects of his background. It is ridiculous that it remains unclear what his qualifications and experience are wrt accountancy. Of course the FFers on here believe the 'meeja' needlessly persecute poor Bertie. I believe they don't persecute hime enough.

GuanYin

Just a warning.

Anyone posting any unfounded accusations that cannot be supported will be banned immediately and their posts removed.

When I say "supported" I don't mean the "well its learly obvious to me" - I mean I want there to be official documents available to see.

Mr.Micro

According to the above link Wikipedia he was an accounts clerk, technically on a career break from the accounts department at the Mater. I asked was he a qualified accountant in a post a few days ago so I presume by this reference he is not. So I suppose if he ever quits as Taoiseach then he has his old job waiting for him?

A Dub in Glasgo

He will have loads of offers waiting for him, never mind book-keeper

DublinWriter

IRLConor wrote: »

I notice UCD is still on his CV. Did anyone manage to confirm whether he went there or not? He's also listed as an accountant, did he ever qualify?

He is not a member of either the Chartered or Certified Accountant Bodies if Ireland, ergo, he is not an Accountant.

I always find it fascinating to compare Bertie with Haughey in terms of education. Haughey won a scholarship to UCD and graduated with a BA, then earned a BL and went on to become a qualified accountant and set up his own practice all by the age of 25.

ballooba

Any suggestion that Bertie is a man of the people displaying no obvious signs of wealth is a steaming pile of horse manure. The man earns over €300,000 per annum and has little or no expenses. He has a mansion in the Phoenix Park at his disposal lying empty and costing the taxpayer vast sums of money. He has buckets of money he just chooses not to spend it. His public image is carefully groomed by his spin doctors.

Dalfiatach

He has no accountancy qualifications. Neither UCD nor LSE have any record of him having had anything to do with them, ever. He worked in the Accounts Department of the Mater when he was a young fella as a clerk.

Given that at the time he was in his early 20s (he was elected to the Dáil at the age of 26), and he had no formal qualifications, how important do you think his job in the Mater actually was?

Allegedly (and the mods might snip this line) his actual job was counting the cars in the car park and comparing that to the car-park income. Which, let us be realistic, is about the sort of job a young fella with no qualifications would be doing.

edanto

You should snip that bit out yourself, it quite clearly isn't a provable fact no matter how true etc it may be. Mind the line - web savvy solicitors about that are very diligent about protecting their client's reputation.

The Chessplayer

Dalfiatach wrote: »

He has no accountancy qualifications. Neither UCD nor LSE have any record of him having had anything to do with them, ever. He worked in the Accounts Department of the Mater when he was a young fella as a clerk.

Given that at the time he was in his early 20s (he was elected to the Dáil at the age of 26), and he had no formal qualifications, how important do you think his job in the Mater actually was?

Allegedly (and the mods might snip this line) his actual job was counting the cars in the car park and comparing that to the car-park income. Which, let us be realistic, is about the sort of job a young fella with no qualifications would be doing.

I find it hard to believe that counting cars could have been his full-time job! Granted it may have been a chore he once had to do, but I doubt that Bertie Ahern could ever have been described as some sort of hapless plonker. The ministry of finance would hardly be bestowed on some blundering punchinello without a jot of financial acumen. Regarding his qualifications, presumably these questions are answered in his biographies? I was just curious about his social upbringing.

serfboard

The Chessplayer wrote: »

The ministry of finance would hardly be bestowed on some blundering punchinello without a jot of financial acumen.

In these islands the Minstry of Finance is typically given to the anointed successor, regardless of whether they have any financial knowledge or experience.

DublinWriter

The Chessplayer wrote: »

The ministry of finance would hardly be bestowed on some blundering punchinello without a jot of financial acumen.

Da's reight...the 'ministry of finance', or "The Department of Finance" as we call it in Ireland, don't have a quick straw-pole to decide who their next boss will be, that's left to the government-incumbent.

GuanYin

Couple of points (after some research).

It seems he attended a DIT - presumably he graduated???

There is no legal definition of accountant in Ireland, nor the requirement of any qualification to hold that title. Therefor, Ahern is perfectly entitled to use that term.
He also holds an honorary membership Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy

He is not however a certified chartered accountant.

A Dub in Glasgo

Anybody can call themselves an Accountant (or Engineer for that matter) as they are not protected titles. He is as much an Accountant as I am.

Sherifu

Cool, i'm an accountant and I never knew.

guinnessdrinker

Sherifu wrote: »

Cool, i'm an accountant and I never knew.

Lol, this is getting like "I'm Brian" from the Life of Brian. I remember this topic coming up before though before last year's election and afaik it wasn't resolved then either.

lostexpectation

who needs money when you've got power....

i can't even remember him being mayor of dublin,(not that it s much of a position)...

i guess he has background of a politcal family even though his dad or anybody wasn't a politician...

DublinWriter

PSI: Las Vegas wrote: »

There is no legal definition of accountant in Ireland, nor the requirement of any qualification to hold that title. Therefor, Ahern is perfectly entitled to use that term.

The same legal definitions don't exist in the state legal statute books for an architect, Dentist or a GP, but you need to belong to the requisite professional body to practice as one.

According to your argument, the average Joe Soap on the street is as much entitled to call him or herself a dentist as Bertie Ahern is entitled to call himself an accountant.

juuge

He certainly didn’t study elocution. In school we were always taught to stand up straight, speak properly and distinctly and this would carry us through our careers.
Bertie does non of this and he became taoiseach.
Did you see him walking down the steps of the white house recently with his jacket two sizes too small for him and the buttons straining with the pressure of his manly belly. What a statesman, I was so proud to be Irish. Whatever about him being an accountant he is certainly not prime minister material. It’s a sad joke.

Dalfiatach

The Chessplayer wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that counting cars could have been his full-time job! Granted it may have been a chore he once had to do, but I doubt that Bertie Ahern could ever have been described as some sort of hapless plonker. The ministry of finance would hardly be bestowed on some blundering punchinello without a jot of financial acumen. Regarding his qualifications, presumably these questions are answered in his biographies? I was just curious about his social upbringing.

Why not? I think he's been a hapless plonker for all 11 years he's been Taoiseach!

Look, he was a low-level junior clerk shuffling paper in the admin section of a hospital, a young fella with no qualifications. Just how important do you think his job actually was? <mod snip>

The Ministry of Finance is the second-most-important position in Government after Taoiseach, and as such usually goes to the second biggest political beast on the block. Qualifications and real-world experience have got SFA to do with what ministerial job you get - loyalty and geography and status on the party totem-pole is what decides, and nothing more.

Regarding his qualifications, there's no hard evidence that he has any. He claims to have "attended courses" in DIT, UCD and LSE, which has been denied by both UCD and LSE and there's no hard evidence of him graduating from DIT. He's never even sat any exams of any of the Accountancy bodies, never mind qualifying as an accountant. Look, I did a B.Comm 15 years ago, and right now I can provide you with a transcript showing you what subjects I took over the three years - yes, including many Accountancy subjects - and the marks I got. How come Ahern can't do the same and clear this matter up once and for all?

<mod snip>

As to his family circumstances when he was growing up as a kid, that's shrouded in mystery too, but I don't think there's any great mystery there. Certainly his parents were not rich, though equally they probably were not poor.

Liam Byrne

Regarding his qualifications, presumably these questions are answered in his biographies?

Wouldn't it be hard to write a biography if you don't keep records and can't remember significant things like having bank accounts or getting a couple of years salaries worth of cash, as reported in the Irish Times at the weekend ?

BaZmO*

The Chessplayer wrote: »

Just curious as to how authentic the whole salt of the earth image is, because it seems to be used every now and again in his defence by some commentators.

Of course he's a man of the people, he drinks Bass for feck's sake!!!

The Chessplayer

Dalfiatach wrote: »

The Ministry of Finance is the second-most-important position in Government after Taoiseach, and as such usually goes to the second biggest political beast on the block. Qualifications and real-world experience have got SFA to do with what ministerial job you get - loyalty and geography and status on the party totem-pole is what decides, and nothing more.

Yes, but experience is usually gained in the lesser ministries. Cowen did his stint in some of the more Willie O'Dea-type roles before landing Finance. McDowell and Lenihan were obvious candidates for Justice, as McCreevy was for Finance.

I wouldn't be Bertie's biggest fan, but I hardly think that a job he had in his twenties has any relevance on his political achievements. If he was such a thundering gobsh!te, then the most he would have been trusted with would have been Defence or perhaps the Sports & Tourism portfolio.

Mr.Micro

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Wouldn't it be hard to write a biography if you don't keep records and can't remember significant things like having bank accounts or getting a couple of years salaries worth of cash, as reported in the Irish Times at the weekend ?

No disrespect Liam but, some biographies belong in the fiction section.

jdivision

I thought it was well known that his dad ran the farm in or next to the Archbishop's Palace. His dad was from Timoleague in Cork iirc and was involved in FF but never a candidate or anything. As for running departments, they're usually run by their secretary generals rather than the ministers despite what the public thinks.

Quality

Bertie grew up on Church Avenue, in Drumcondra, The road down from the Cat and Cage off Drumcondra Road.

His father worked on the grounds of the All Hallows college. His father was a very nice man. Working class. The family were not wealthy.

Dalfiatach

The Chessplayer wrote: »

I wouldn't be Bertie's biggest fan, but I hardly think that a job he had in his twenties has any relevance on his political achievements.

True, but it does have some relevance on his long history of spoofing and bluffing and telling porkies. Reflect on that for a moment and then consider his "political achievements" and see how many of them really stack up in the cold light of day.

The Chessplayer wrote: »

If he was such a thundering gobsh!te, then the most he would have been trusted with would have been Defence or perhaps the Sports & Tourism portfolio.

Have you looked at his "rivals"? Is there anyone in the current cabinet you would trust to go to the shop for a pint of milk? Martin Cullen? Noel Dempsey? Hanafin or O'Dea? O'Cuiv, Seamus Brennan or that gormless eejit Micheál Martin? Muppets all. Have a look at the FF members of cabinet when Bertie first made it to Finance in 1993: Joe Walsh, Michael Smith, David Andrews, a young Brian Cowen,Máire Geoghegan-Quinn, and the bould McCreevy. Every one of them either a muppet; or a spoofer that claimed to be brilliant but never actually delivered anything.

It's not hard to rise to the top against a field as crippled as that.

The quality of Irish politicians is appalling. And we keep re-electing them. Zero tolerance for clowns and chancers. Boot them out, at all levels. Only then will the quality of public services improve in this country. If we keep rewarding their spoofery they've no incentive to improve their performance.

DublinWriter

Dalfiatach wrote: »

Have you looked at his "rivals"?

Perhaps one of the most talented, Charlie McCreevy was bused out to Brussels.

Dalfiatach wrote: »

The quality of Irish politicians is appalling.

Of course it is. Irish people hate politicians and only the mentally-ill would stand for high-office. That's why I think we need a root-and-branch overhaul of the political system in this country and not plough-on with a political structure that is basically a Dev hang-over from the 1920's.

murphaph

DublinWriter wrote: »

The same legal definitions don't exist in the state legal statute books for an architect, Dentist or a GP, but you need to belong to the requisite professional body to practice as one.

Architect is definitely not a protected title and many more peole advertise themselves as "architect" than belong to the RIAI. You certainly don't have to belong to the RIAI to practice as an architect.

Does this mean that all an opposor has to do to force a change is dig up dirt and fling it at the incumbent?

That's not democracy.

Irish people hate politicians

Never a truer word said.

Still, I like the system as it is, unless we go for an "all independent" non-party system, with wise elders from each locale.......

Not going to happen........

Liam Byrne

Deleted User wrote: »

Does this mean that all an opposor has to do to force a change is dig up dirt and fling it at the incumbent?

No. That will only work if (a) there's dirt to be flung and (b) the incumbent refuses to explain thing in a consistent and believeable manner.

Bottom line is that if Bertie had come out with the details of this in November 2006, when McDowell asked him, today would probably never have happened.

BaZmO*

Deleted User wrote: »

Does this mean that all an opposor has to do to force a change is dig up dirt and fling it at the incumbent?

That's not democracy.

But it is modern politics...

The Chessplayer

Liam Byrne wrote: »

No. That will only work if (a) there's dirt to be flung and (b) the incumbent refuses to explain thing in a consistent and believeable manner.

Bottom line is that if Bertie had come out with the details of this in November 2006, when McDowell asked him, today would probably never have happened.

Forgot about that. Bizarrely enough, this reflected badly on McDowell who ended up losing his seat to that gormless plonker from the Green Party.

edanto

There were a lot of things about McDowell that we didn't like around here and that's why he got voted out.

I'd say Bertie will have strong local support for the rest of his time in the Dail - Drumcondra is a great part of the world with a village feel, less trucks becuase of the port tunnel, good house prices (if you're selling), innovations like cycle paths separate from the road, a great public transport system, good schools with no overcrowding, close to both The Mater & Beaumont, a university, plenty of park space... the list goes on.

He looked after those that looked after him, no doubt.

The Chessplayer

edanto wrote: »

There were a lot of things about McDowell that we didn't like around here and that's why he got voted out.

I'd say Bertie will have strong local support for the rest of his time in the Dail - Drumcondra is a great part of the world with a village feel, less trucks becuase of the port tunnel, good house prices (if you're selling), innovations like cycle paths separate from the road, a great public transport system, good schools with no overcrowding, close to both The Mater & Beaumont, a university, plenty of park space... the list goes on.

He looked after those that looked after him, no doubt.

It's in Dublin Central - what do you expect???

daithicarr

drumcondra got a lot more than its neighbouring constitutancys, wonder why.

He cant have been a very good accountant , he cant even account for all theat money he got.

juuge

juuge wrote: »

He certainly didn’t study elocution. In school we were always taught to stand up straight, speak properly and distinctly and this would carry us through our careers.
Bertie does non of this and he became taoiseach.
Did you see him walking down the steps of the white house recently with his jacket two sizes too small for him and the buttons straining with the pressure of his manly belly. What a statesman, I was so proud to be Irish. Whatever about him being an accountant he is certainly not prime minister material. It’s a sad joke.

:D

Of all the rants I've read, and there have been a few, that's right up there with the funniest.

I'm so proud to be Irish when I hear of people judging ability by (i) how they hold their back and (ii) the belly.

Would you prefer a Sarkozy? Sure his got that whole issue with Africans and blacks and people who don't shake his hand and powerhosing out the poor and all that, but he wears such a lovely cut of suit...

tech77

Sherifu wrote: »

Cool, i'm an accountant and I never knew.

LordSutch

But where did he 'study' English :rolleyes:

To be fair to him, he always kept us amused & entharalled with his unique 'mangling' of the English language, and his penchant for twisting & destroying well known sayings "I never condemn wrongdoing in any area" or "Ill take dat wit a pinch of sand" or maybe salt? to the more recent "Smoke & Daggers" instead of 'Smoke & Mirrors' or was dat meant to be 'Cloak & Mirrors'

Faults & all, he'll be missed.

The Chessplayer

ArthurF wrote: »

But where did he 'study' English :rolleyes:

To be fair to him, he always kept us amused & entharalled with his unique 'mangling' of the English language, and his penchant for twisting & destroying well known sayings "I never condemn wrongdoing in any area" or "Ill take dat wit a pinch of sand" or maybe salt? to the more recent "Smoke & Daggers" instead of 'Smoke & Mirrors' or was dat meant to be 'Cloak & Mirrors'

Faults & all, he'll be missed.

Cloak and dagger

Sleepy

It's my opinion that he owes the last election win to Today FM. No PR professional in the country could have fostered the image of the everyman for him as well as Mario Rosenstock's Gift Grub skits did.