Celbridge Donaghcumper Development

vincenzo1975

What do you think of the Donaghcumper Development. New Cinema, more cafe's and pubs and some decent shops sounds great, but the apartments seem eccesive(8 stories), especially with the downturn in the housing market. Adamstown is reportadly still half empty.

What do you think of this, and the traffic implications?

The Raven.

The documents are now online for Donaghcumper.

File no. 08438

File no. 08439

The Raven.

PROPOSED NEW TOWN CENTRE
AT DONAGHCUMPER

Dear Celbridge Residents,

You may be aware that a planning application for the above proposed development has been lodged with Kildare County Council. The scale of this urban development (up to 8 storeys) is completely out of character with Celbridge. We in the community of Celbridge must reflect very carefully on the probable social, environmental and visual impact of this development.

The proposed plans can be viewed, on line, at KildareCountyCouncil.ie.

If you wish to object, simply:

Write to:
The Planning Department, Kildare County Council,Aras Cill Dara, Devoy Park, Naas, Co Kildare
Quoting: - Ref No: 08/438, and enclosing a fee of €20.
The objection must be received by K.C.C. by 21st April

When outlining the grounds for your objection you may be as brief or as detailed as you choose. You may wish to refer to one or more of the following points, or any others of your choosing:

Scale, Size and Height: completely out of character with Celbridge.

Traffic: The proposed new bridge linking the Maynooth Road with the Donaghcumper development will create traffic chaos at Castletown Gates and the addition of approx. 3000 new residents will result in major traffic congestion.

Heritage: The proposed new bridge and high rise urban development in such close proximity to many protected structures is wholly inappropriate and would be detrimental to the historic fabric of the Celbridge street-scape.
Castletown House and its grounds will have the views from its main approach avenue and its riverbank walks severely impaired for future generations.

General:
There are no provisions for any school places or for adequate parking facilities.

The proposed pedestrian bridges have the potential to become areas of anti-social behaviour.

The River Liffey is a priceless amenity and must be protected along with the Liffey Valley landscape.

Water supply/quality: Housing estates in Celbridge have already experienced low water pressure.

The lack of public consultation with the people of Celbridge for such a major urban development was wrong and displayed a lack of respect or regard for the community.

A separate application for a housing estate close to St Wolstan’s has been lodged by the same developer (Ref No. 08/439.) To object to this follow a similar procedure and enclose a further €20

Celbridge Action Alliance. <snip></snip>

The Raven.

The contact numbers in my last post were deleted because they were against the forum rules, which I had forgotten about. I feel like I'm back at school!! If anyone wants these numbers, they can send me a PM.

Joe Public

Good piece by Kevin Myers

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/town-faces-monstrous-fate--all-in-the-name-of-progress-1348043.html

finnmcool

Nice read, some good points too.

The Raven.

I think it's an excellent article. Well worth reading. Kevin Myers has shown a very keen insight into this appalling situation and a profound appreciation of local heritage.

This impending environmental catastrophe is rapidly generating an ever-increasing torrent of public outrage!!

Requiem4adream

On a personal level, having lived here my entire life (im 25 now - 4th generation Celbridgian) this would be the straw that breaks the camels back in terms of the transformation of celbridge from a quaint village to an impersonal town. My mam kept the Celbridge Charter from the day i was born, the sense of tight knit community leapt from the pages even as recently as 1982, when the population of the town was < 5000. Recent census put celbridge and surrounding areas around the 45,000 mark. It has already changed dramatically since i was a child but this proposed development would expedite those changes.

The main problem i have with the development is it's positioning. I dont think there would be nearly half the objections and/or opposition to the project if it was closer to the Salesians end, it'd be more in keeping with the recent developments that side of the town. Kevin Myers put it better than i ever could obviously - but frankly it'd be downright silly to have the Church of ireland church, Castletown House, the forest etc overlooked and perhaps dwarfed by this new development. It would certainly detract from them imo.

With the projected global downturn/recession and a steep downturn in the housing market, there's a distinct possibility this development will remain half empty and/or a mini-ghost town or at worst a white elephant. I do think celbridge needs a lot of what the development contains though, for years there has been a dearth of options in the town (but that comment can apply to most towns).

Kildrought

Hi - anyone know what the story is with the new celbridge forum? is it down?

there were some dramatic montaged photos of the new development which really showed the impact of this appalling proposal

http://campbells.proboards52.com/index.cgi

scrap that - it's back again!

The Raven.

Kildrought, I checked into the situation regarding the contact number of the Celbridge group that are objecting to Donaghcumper and there is a slight problem with the phone. This will be sorted tonight and you can contact them tomorrow. The same goes for anyone else. I can't post the number here but you can PM me. The info is also available at http://campbells.proboards52.com/index.cgi, in Kildrought's post.

ChewChew

Hi Raven. . .

Any info you cant show here just put it on www.campbells.proboards52.com as you have been doing. They wont be deleted from there. . I can assure you that!!!

The Raven.

Thanks, ChewChew. Much appreciated!

The Raven.

Unless people OBJECT TO KILDARE CO. COUNCIL BEFORE NEXT TUESDAY NOON, this horrendous violation of our town will become unstoppable!!

The Raven.

There is a very good article in this week’s Liffey Champion, page 6, about the proposed Donaghcumper development. The Hon. Desmond Guinness is lodging an objection to Kildare Co. Council. So too are the Irish Georgian Society, Celbridge Community Council, Celbridge Historical Society, Celbridge Action Alliance and Liffey Valley Park Alliance.

Beruthiel

The Raven. wrote: »

The Hon. Desmond Guinness is lodging an objection to Kildare Co. Council. So too are the Irish Georgian Society, Celbridge Community Council, Celbridge Historical Society, Celbridge Action Alliance and Liffey Valley Park Alliance.

Fantastic news!

Gibbins123

Is there any use in telling the builders what we want?

We will end up settling (being stuck with) 5 storey buildings if we do not insist now that we won't tolerate any more than 2 storeys. (though some may find 3 storeys acceptable).

For starters, Celbridge doesn't need so many apartments (as what are in the proposed plans). There are loads of apartments around hazelhatch, some of which (behind petrol station) were difficult to sell and the council ended up buying them.

We can allow some apartments and loads of shops, if we also get the facilities needed.

I have heard that Celbridge is the largest town in Ireland with only one main street. So we need another, which I would suggest is linked directly to the proposed bridge.

Might a roundabout help with traffic at castletown gates? Although it is an awkward place to put a bridge right at an estate entrance, unfortunately I can't see where else it could go. If the traffic is carefully managed it would indeed be good for people who live in castletown to get into Dublin. Isn't traffic in Celbridge mainstreet approx 20 to 30mins in mornings?

Have a little look at my (messy) plan (if it will attach!)

Once we get these main things, the builders can pretty much do what they like with the rest of the area. (not forgetting a creche, post office and a new priests house...)

It would be beautiful if they made it like Kildare shopping village, but one can dream......

The Raven.

The further information for Zone B of the Donaghcumper development has been submitted to Kildare Co. Council. This has been stated on the KCC planning website. I understand that full details of this will be on line this coming Wednesday, 17th December 2008. I also understand that further submissions or observations may be made in writing, both from original objectors (free) and any other members of the public (with fee).

DEADLINE: 14 January 2009.

See: Document no. 909206, Application Details: Further information Detail 10/12/08.

http://webiplan.kildarecoco.ie/publiciplan/Enquiries/rpt_QueryByFileNumber_delay.asp?username=guest&password=password&action=digitise&filenum=08439

Zone B is the area opposite Castletown Avenue: 108 detached houses.

Orion

Joe Public wrote: »

Good piece by Kevin Myers

Never thought I'd hear "good piece" and "Kevin Myers" put together in the same sentence.

Joe Public

Macros42 wrote: »

Never thought I'd hear "good piece" and "Kevin Myers" put together in the same sentence.

Did you read the article?

vektarman

The Raven. wrote: »

There is a very good article in this week’s Liffey Champion, page 6, about the proposed Donaghcumper development. The Hon. Desmond Guinness is lodging an objection to Kildare Co. Council. So too are the Irish Georgian Society, Celbridge Community Council, Celbridge Historical Society, Celbridge Action Alliance and Liffey Valley Park Alliance.

Since then the Hon. Desmond Guinness has sold land to Diageo to build a giant eyesore a mile or two downriver, I wonder if he'll object to that also?

Joe Public

vektarman wrote: »

Since then the Hon. Desmond Guinness has sold land to Diageo to build a giant eyesore a mile or two downriver, I wonder if he'll object to that also?

Strange that you call your bread and butter an eyesore and it's not even built yet.

The Raven.

I don't mean to be rude but I would appreciate it if we could keep this on topic, as it is a matter of extreme urgency. The Guinness development can be dealt with in another thread, if it is going to happen.

The Donaghcumper documents for Zone B are now on line and are very extensive: two of them are over 600 pages each. This is not even the half of it. Zone A will follow some time after this.

NEW DEADLINE for submissions: 23 January 2009.

http://webiplan.kildarecoco.ie/publiciplan/Enquiries/rpt_QueryByFileNumber_delay.asp?username=guest&password=password&action=digitise&filenum=08439

vektarman

Apologies for going off topic raven, and thanks for the updates.

The Raven.

Thanks, Vektarman. Apologies accepted. I will try to keep people up to date on both of these issues. In the meantime it is important to read the documents, especially for the people of Celbridge, as major changes to the environment are proposed, which will effect everybody.

soulsearcher

It would seem that Catherine Murphy is the only councillor following up on this. She recently expressed concerns about KCC's talks of a Masterplan in relation to Donaghcomper. She like me wonders how the council can make an impartial decision on the planning application in light of a Masterplan.
Charlie Talbot assures her that the planning process is totally transparent. There is I believe an element of transparency in KCC but not enough to allow us see what is going on behind the scenes. (Sorry to mention Diageo, but I think there is lots happening behind the scenes here also.)
It is also difficult to rationalise KCC's recent decision to work with the other three councils on the Liffey Valley Plan while they still seem hell bent on destroying the section of the Liffey Valley from Lucan to the bridge in Celbridge. At least the residents of Lucan managed to see off Ballymore homes when they stood up to the attempt to develop the land at St Edmundsbury. I hope the people of Leixlip/Celbridge won't lie down under KCC's attempts to roll a Masterplan over them. Did Devondale honestly think that by submitting their FI at this time that people would be too busy to respond? Bah humbug to them and to KCC.

The Raven.

Kildare Co. Council have issued a notice on the following link, inviting submissions regarding the addition of Donaghcumper House to the Record of Protected Structures.

http://www.kildare.ie/CountyCouncil/Planning/ProtectedStructures/Donaghcumper/

Donaghcumper House is situated in the middle of the proposed development, as the map shows, and is a very important Celbridge heritage structure. In light of the proposed development, it is vital that this beautiful house and its curtilage are preserved by declaring it a protected structure on the RPS. A show of strength in support of this addition is much needed, especially from the people of Celbridge, as one cannot automatically assume that the decision will be positive if it is left to a few concerned residents etc. against someone who might want it demolished.

The address for submissions is on the newspaper notice in the link.

The deadline is Friday, 16 January 2009.

soulsearcher

Thanks raven will get onto it immediately after Christmas.

The Raven.

The submissions can be sent either by post or by email, to the addresses given on the notice.

bunyip123

Hi all - I will make sure to do my submissions as well. I sent objections to the original plans. Can I just ask for some advice as to what else we might be able to do? Is there anyone else I should be writing to? I just feel I should be doing something more. I think its just so depressing to think of Celbridge being turned into a soul-less bland place like all the other useless developments around the country. I've yet to see any nice design/architecture. All the ugly apartment blocks are bad enough as it is! I'm in Celbridge all my life (nearly 30 yrs) and the change in the place is just awful.
As well as that, the damage to the wildlife and environment! Donaghcomper is such a rare piece of land in Ireland now, all the wildlife and the view down to the church, and the nice walled approach to the village. Why can't more people see the value in that kind of thing? ok rant over, sorry

The Raven.

Thanks, Bunyip. It is good to know that there are people who are prepared to make the effort to stop this catastrophe. I presume you have looked over the Further Information submitted by the developers on the KCC link:

http://webiplan.kildarecoco.ie/publi...&filenum=08439

There is so much of it that it is mind-boggling, especially having come during the Christmas period. What is even more baffling is the fact that it is being presented at the same time as the Masterplan for the overall development. This would appear to be unprecedented and unacceptable by normal standards. The Masterplan is on the above link: DocID number: 610717, starting at page 9.

I know it is irritating and boring to have to once again trail through pages of this kind of information, which is totally ignoring the wishes and sensitivities of the residents of Celbridge and anyone who cares about our rich cultural heritage. However, if we don’t deal with it, we will be stuck with ten years of muck and dirt, resulting in the destruction of Celbridge forever.

I will get back to you towards the end of this coming week with advice. In the meantime it is very important to respond to the request for submissions re the proposal to have Donaghcumper House included on the Record of Protected Structures, as the deadline for this is Friday, 16 January 2009.

On a brighter note, here is an interesting article regarding new Planning legislation.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055451390

lb163

Celbridge does not this type of development, at least not 8 story high buildings. Look at the traffic situation in Celbridge now it is gridlock during school hours. A proper road structure need to be built first before any more developments. Now with the downturn in the building I think this will be put on the back burner for a while

The Raven.

One of the worst aspects of this development is the proposal to build a new, modern bridge close to Castletown Gates, which would cause considerably more gridlock in the village, destroy the beauty of the main entrance to Castletown House, the finest Palladian house in the country, and pose a threat to the foundations of the protected structures in this area. A new bridge could be built further along the river leading to the Clane Road if necessary.

One would have thought that the downturn in the economy might have put this development on hold, but unfortunately this is not the case. Look at the plans. This greedy developer is pushing ahead at an alarming rate, as if the Celtic tiger had only just begun.

bunyip123

Hi Raven. I've sent in my email anyway in relation to the house getting on the 'protected' register. I also sent the word around to a few friends, who have in turn sent the word on to their family/friends who they think will be interested, so hopefully that will drum up a good few more submissions.

Also, I was just wondering, I want to make sure I get another letter together for when the 'masterplan' thing is submitted for 08/438 - the other bit of the development. Do you know if that is going to be submitted to the council soon?

i thought i had another question but i can't think of it now hehe

bunyip123

Sorry, am i right in saying the current masterplan on the KCC site is for 08/439 - i am getting myself in a right muddle.

The Raven.

Bunyip, I'm not surprised at anyone getting confused with this development. It seems to be proceeding backwards. The Masterplan should have been submitted first. In an effort to clarify the situation, I have written the following summary of events:
___________________________________________________________

Two separate Planning Applications for the Donaghcumper lands were lodged 18 March 2008:

08/439 = Zone B, (so-called ‘Residential Area’)

08/438 = Zone A, (so-called ‘Town Centre Extension’)

Further Information was requested by KCC on 12 May 2008 on both applications. A time extension for both was granted on request, until 10 February 2009.

The developers submitted Further Information to KCC for Zone B, (08/439) on 1 December 2008. KCC subsequently issued notice to all original objectors to Zone B, inviting further submissions (free), and any other members of the public (with €20 fee). The deadline for these submissions was extended to 23 January 2009.

At the same time as Zone B Further Information was lodged, a Masterplan also appeared, which I understand is being worked on in conjunction with KCC. This Masterplan is for the entire development, including Zone A and Zone B.

Further Information for Zone A (08/438), should arrive from the developers anytime before 10 February 2009.
_________________________________________________________

I hope this is of help. The massive scale of this development is daunting, to say the least. The developers have had lots of time and enough money to employ teams of experts to work on this project, while the people of Celbridge, whose lives it will seriously effect, have limited time and resources to assess all this information in an effort to protect their environment from this wanton destruction.

bunyip123

Thanks Raven, that was really helpful! I will get my letters together now. Its shocking the size of this development! The masterplan is full of such nonsense about how the town squares will promote 'healthy activity'....what??! Promote antisocial behaviour more like.
There is also a line in it that really made me laugh. It said something like 'streets are a most important element of a city's public realm'........since when was Celbridge a city!!
It's sickening how they use all this supposedly trendy wording like 'organic' and 'healthy' etc, just to appear all caring and helpful to residents, when all they want to do is build sub-standard apartments and houses and line their pockets.

The Raven.

You have some very valid points there, Bunyip. The scale of the proposed development is overwhelming. Some people won't realise this until it is too late. Celbridge is definitely not a city. It is a small town surrounded by sprawling, excessive, residential development. The heart of the town has so far managed to stay in tact, but this development would totally destroy it forever.

Terms like 'organic' and 'healthy activity' are totally hypocritical in this context, and bear no resemblance to the reality of the situation, which is solely designed to generate a profit for the developers. If they cared at all for the local residents, they would do the decent thing and withdraw their plans, and admit their mistake.

However, it would be very foolish to assume that they won't go ahead with it, and that all they want is planning permission to increase the value of the land. One cannot afford to be complacent about it and do nothing.

The Raven.

The Raven. wrote: »

Kildare Co. Council have issued a notice on the following link, inviting submissions regarding the addition of Donaghcumper House to the Record of Protected Structures.

http://www.kildare.ie/CountyCouncil/Planning/ProtectedStructures/Donaghcumper/

Donaghcumper House is situated in the middle of the proposed development, as the map shows, and is a very important Celbridge heritage structure. In light of the proposed development, it is vital that this beautiful house and its curtilage are preserved by declaring it a protected structure on the RPS. A show of strength in support of this addition is much needed, especially from the people of Celbridge, as one cannot automatically assume that the decision will be positive if it is left to a few concerned residents etc. against someone who might want it demolished.

The address for submissions is on the newspaper notice in the link.

The deadline is Friday, 16 January 2009.

This is a REMINDER that the deadline for the above is this coming Friday. It is very important that as many people as possible send in submissions supporting the proposal to add Donaghcumper House to the Record of Protected Structures (RPS). They need only be one-liners (unless you wish to write more), and should be addressed to: Senior Executive Officer, Planning Department, Kildare County Council, Áras Chill Dara, Devoy Park, Naas, Co. Kildare. Alternatively, they can be emailed to the address on the link.

In either case don’t forget to add your name and address.

soulsearcher

The planning application in relation to 08/438 has been withdrawn.

The Raven.

The planning application no. 08/438 for a new town extension was 'deemed withdrawn' by Kildare Co. Council because no Further Information was submitted by the developers before the deadline (Tue. 10 Feb.), as requested by the Planning Department. They may submit a new application. There is a possibility that they may submit several smaller applications in piecemeal fashion.

As regards planning application 08/439, the developers were requested to supply 'clarification' of the submitted Further Information. They have 6 months to respond, but they could do this at any time before the deadline: June 2009.

bunyip123

you are so right Raven - We must keep on the ball and make sure we submit objections to any new applications, especially if they come in bits and pieces!

SmellySockies

Is this seriously still going ahead with the recession and all?

Marcus.Aurelius

It's a great pity the developers didn't see fit to have a public consultation. I've been working in Celbridge for the last 3 years, and always thought that the village was far too small for the size of the population in it.

I don't think the proposed site made any sense, they could have much more easily created a decent park out further from the village. We need more amenities in Celbridge, I think it would attract people from Sallins, Clane and Leixlip, perhaps Lucan too if it was sufficiently tasteful. The proposed idea was none of these things, greedy and ambitious and ignorant of the local people's wishes.

The Raven.

Planning Permission has been GRANTED by Kildare Co. Council for Zone B at Donaghcumper, File 08/439. Details are available on KCC Planning website. The grant date is 27/05/2009. People have FOUR WEEKS from that date to appeal to An Bord Pleanala.

The clock is ticking!!

The Raven.

The last day for submitting an appeal to An Bord Pleanala is Tuesday 23rd June 2009.

Puddleduck

The Raven. wrote: »

The last day for submitting an appeal to An Bord Pleanala is Tuesday 23rd June 2009.

What do you do if you object to the plans? Excuse my ignorance on the issue.

No problem with a proposed shopping center, but the last thing we need is more apartment blocks.

The Raven.

Puddleduck wrote: »

What do you do if you object to the plans?

I'm not really sure what you mean.

Basically, after a planning application is submitted to the Co. Council, anyone is entitled to object. If permission is granted, those who objected are entitled to appeal to An Bord Pleanala. If you didn't object in the first instance, you cannot appeal.

No problem with a proposed shopping center, but the last thing we need is more apartment blocks.

I have no problem with a shopping centre as such, but not on the magnificent piece of heritage land of Donaghcumper. There is a proposal for a shopping centre at Collinstown, a short distance from Celbridge. There is also a good possibility of something of that nature at Hazelhatch, if the economy improves. I was told today that Aldi were trying to create a shopping centre also, which would have been much more suitable.

The planning application for a shopping centre at Donaghcumper was withdrawn. Good riddance! It included up to eight-storey apartment blocks mostly, towering over the historic town of Celbridge.

The Raven.

Bad news today! It looks like the nightmare is back !!

New notices have been placed on the Donaghcumper wall on the Dublin Road, and Kate Walsh's gate today, by Devondale developers. They are submitting a new planning application for the following:

'The development will consist of the provision of roads and services infrastructure to facilitate the future development of an urban expansion to Celbridge town centre, set around a new urban street layout...'

This planning application includes the dreaded new vehicular bridge, the foot bridge, and traffic lights etc.

There is nothing on line as yet.

soulsearcher

The nightmare worsens.

Apparently the OPW in conjuction with a Developer propose to build houses close to the Barbara Streisend concert site. The proposed house and possibly other developments would be located on either side of the walk/road from Castletown House to the vehicle entrance close to the M4 Celbridge Interchange.

The Raven.

Regarding developments behind Castletown House, my understanding is the following:

There is a Castletown Local Area plan being put together at present. The draft plan is due in the libraries within the next few weeks.

An 80 page joint submission from the OPW and the private owner of the lands at the back of Castletown House has been submitted to Kildare Co. Council for this plan.

This may include the rezoning of all the lands visible from the car park to the Interchange, possibly for mixed-use development. Since this road has been opened, residents from Celbridge and Leixlip enjoy walking, cycling, and taking in the views of the open green fields along both sides of this road, from the gate at the interchange to the car park.

In return for the rezoning of all these lands, the field at the back of the house, which is not visible from this roadway would be returned to the OPW, together with another plot of land.

While the return of the field at the back of the house is to be welcomed, the loss of all the other demesne lands is too great a price to pay. The end result would be a very depleted Castletown demesne.

It is vital that we insist that our councillors do not rezone these lands, as they did in Donaghcumper. There are several other pockets of land available for zoning without destroying this fabulous amenity. Lets hope common senses prevails, and lessons are learnt from past mistakes.

w@ll3gurl

It's so expensive to appeal to Bord Pleanala though isnt it? Did i read my letter correct and that it costs 230 euro to appeal. I just dont have the funds right now. Am raging because i really *cannot* stand the thoughts of this development and the town being ruined *forever* for the sake of a few useless shops (and all the empty shop units around the greater dublin area ha ha!!!) and more ugly apartments. It would be nice to talk a walk *somewhere* for once and not have to look at stupid concrete dull rubbish architecture - can the developers not leave anything alone???
when i think of the lovely sunny evenings walking in castletown recently, and looking across the river at the lovely view - developers really are low lifes of the lowest order. and as for the councillors who voted for that land to be re-zoned development purpose!!!!! dont get me started :mad: :mad::mad:

right, i really should stop now, will give myself a connery.

but one more thing - everyone badger those new councillors (kevin byrne, catherine murphy and the other fella) make sure you badger them to vote no to the re-zoning of the land near castletown as per earlier post (if you don't agree with it, obviously)

these people are elected and need to hear the views and be reminded constantly. IMHO.

right i'll go now, sorry.