As the Scottish Independence debate rages on...

Fratton Fred

dublinscot wrote: »

These type of fundamentalists exist in Scotland as they do in every country, but they are not what drives the SNP (or the Socialists and Greens who also support independence).

Talking of which, compare these two quotes...

"This country is a blessed country. The British are special. The world knows it, we know it, this is the greatest country on earth." Tony Blair

"There is British nationalism or Scottish nationalism. I prefer the civic nationalism of small nations that has been expressed through the independence of a dozen European nations of similar size to Scotland in the past 100 years. They have prospered and I'd choose the tolerance and peace of Norway and Ireland over Trident and the illegal Iraq war any day" Alex Salmond.

Exactly who are the rabid nationalists in this debate?

hardly a fair comparison though, both quotes were made for completely differring reasons and by men with different agendas.

Life is very easy for Alex Salmond at the moment, it will be interesting to see how he stands up if he ever gets the opportunity to act on a world stage rather than just a Scottish one.

I have no doubt it will happen, I just think it will take longer than people think.

dublinscot

Fratton Fred wrote: »

hardly a fair comparison though, both quotes were made for completely differring reasons and by men with different agendas.

My point is still valid. Could you imagine Salmond talking about Scotland in the way Blair talked about Britain? It simply wouldn't happen.

Scottish nationalists only talk of equality with other nations, not superiority.

I have no doubt it will happen, I just think it will take longer than people think.

I give the Union another 15 years tops.

daithicarr

scotlands independance would increase its voice, not decrease it. it would no longer be a region of Great britain but its own political entity in the UN, EU, etc, which would represent the voice of scotish people.

as for economics, being a small nation doesnt seem to have any detremental effects, many of the richest nations in europe are smaller ones. luxembourg, norway, Ireland.

turgon

Ive an innovative to the Irish solution to the Northern Irish Question post Scottish independence - a union between Ireland, Scotland and Northern Ireland! Then we could rake up wales brittiny, cornwall and the isle of mann and establish the United Celtic Republics.

LordSutch

daithicarr wrote: »

scotlands independance would increase its voice, not decrease it. it would no longer be a region of Great britain but its own political entity in the UN, EU, etc, which would represent the voice of scotish people.

Scotland will always be a region of Great Britain, irrespective of wheather it becomes an independent country or not ...................

turgon

Yeah geographically, not politically. There not planning to split the island in two with a big canal, just split it into two soviergn states

LordSutch

Probably much the same as we split this island into two sovereign states.

djpbarry

turgon wrote: »

Ive an innovative to the Irish solution to the Northern Irish Question post Scottish independence - a union between Ireland, Scotland and Northern Ireland! Then we could rake up wales brittiny, cornwall and the isle of mann and establish the United Celtic Republics.

Right...

Let's not.

turgon

Yeah but if this happens your not going to see some backward bogger organization like the IRA running errand around the scottish border.

Fratton Fred

dublinscot wrote: »

My point is still valid. Could you imagine Salmond talking about Scotland in the way Blair talked about Britain? It simply wouldn't happen.

Scottish nationalists only talk of equality with other nations, not superiority.


I give the Union another 15 years tops.

I'm not sure it is valid. Tony Blair was premier of a G8 country and a UN security council member and therefore speaks on a much larger stage than Alex Salmond is likely to. Blair's speach was about British unity, Salmond's is ab the opposite, he does not want British unity.

Maskhadov

time for them to shut scotland down and move everyone down south of hadrians wall. it wasnt built for no reason. Scotish independence is a joke.

dublinscot

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'm not sure it is valid. Tony Blair was premier of a G8 country and a UN security council member and therefore speaks on a much larger stage than Alex Salmond is likely to.

I don't really see how the size of the stage is relevant?

The fact remains that Scottish nationalists don't speak in the same traditionally 'nationalist' tones.

Blair's speach was about British unity, Salmond's is ab the opposite, he does not want British unity.

You're right, he wants British equality.

Fratton Fred

dublinscot wrote: »

I don't really see how the size of the stage is relevant?

The fact remains that Scottish nationalists don't speak in the same traditionally 'nationalist' tones.


You're right, he wants British equality.

The stage is important, Blair was speaking as British PM to the entire nation, Salmond is only interested in convincing less than 20% of those people to support him. The reason they don't speak in traditionally nationalist tones is because traditional nationalism is a thing of the past.

me too, it's about time England had an equal say to the over represented Scots

Camac Hibs

me too, it's about time England had an equal say to the over represented Scots

Too right, so lets end this outdated union once and for all as it isnt suiting anyone.

dublinscot

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The stage is important, Blair was speaking as British PM to the entire nation,

And Salmond was speaking to the entire Scottish nation.

Salmond is only interested in convincing less than 20% of those people to support him.

Yeah, he's only interested in the Scottish voters (about 9% btw).

I still don't see how this is relevant though.

The reason they don't speak in traditionally nationalist tones is because traditional nationalism is a thing of the past.

So what's Blair's excuse?

CptSternn

While on the topic, this great article appeared just the other day in the LA Times...

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-connery5apr05,0,5160222.story

The Scots show their true colors

Sean Connery says that Scotland's independence day may be closer than ever.
By Sean Connery
April 5, 2008
There are few more cherished American ideals than independence. As we prepare to celebrate Tartan Day, established as April 6 by a U.S. Senate resolution in 1998 to commemorate one of the inspirations for the Declaration of Independence -- Scotland's Declaration of Arbroath -- it is as good a time as any to tell the uniquely Scottish story of independence.

In 1320, Scots penned the Declaration of Arbroath. In lines that would echo through the ages, they wrote, "It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honors that we are fighting, but for freedom -- for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Many Americans are familiar with that part of the story -- of the patriot William Wallace and the Scots who stood up for independence. What is understandably less familiar is that in 1707, a group of Scottish noblemen sold Scotland's independence and joined with England to become the United Kingdom of Great Britain.

It wasn't a popular move. In fact, Daniel Defoe wrote that "for every Scot in favor, 99 is against."

So it is not surprising that some people have been working ever since to change it.

More interesting than the past, though, is the national conversation going on in Scotland now. What is so special about it is that the world has an example of a completely democratic process in which the people are considering their future, and in which their voice will be the final word.

In 1997, Scots spoke loudly when they voted to reinstate their Parliament. When Scottish National Party President Winifred Ewing was able to say, "The Scots Parliament, adjourned on 25th March 1707, is hereby reconvened," she touched hearts across the country.

The Scottish Parliament has authority for health, education, courts and the environment. The British Parliament retains control over most taxes and foreign affairs.

The question now is, what next? The current Scottish government is the first one in modern times that wants to see Scotland reclaim its independence.

The best part of this debate is that it is based on ideas, not ethnicity. Conversations about the best future for the country are happening in the Scottish Parliament and in homes and workplaces across the country.

The Scottish government wants Scotland and England to become independent and equal nations, with the queen and her successors continuing as the common head of state of both -- similar to what happened in Canada and Australia in the 20th century. In other words, we would move toward becoming united kingdoms, rather than the United Kingdom.

Debating their constitutional future does not stop Scots from contributing to today's important international issues. This week, the Scottish government, with the support of the National Geographic Society, announced the Saltire Prize -- a $20-million award for innovation in renewable energy -- as a challenge to the world's scientists. The message that Scotland is open for business came across clearly this week as Scotland dropped its business taxes to be even more internationally competitive. And you might not think Scotland when you think football, but today, the New York Giants' own Greenock-born Lawrence Tynes will be leading the Tartan Day parade down 6th Avenue.

Independence is something Americans inherently understand. My whole adult life, I have waited and worked for the day that Scots are able to decide democratically if they wish to rejoin the community of nations as an independent and equal member. A recent poll showed that two-thirds of Scots would welcome that opportunity under certain circumstances.

I believe that day -- Scotland's independence day -- is closer than ever.

Camac Hibs

Im pleasantly surprised at how good an article that is.

However, I hope that when Scotland becomes independent Connery returns and contributes his fair share to the greater good of the nation.