Dáil Protest and University Run to Dublin

merlante

A relay run between Waterford and Dublin, via Kilkenny city and Carlow town, has been organised from this Monday 31st March till Wednesday the 2nd of April by Friends of the University for the South East (FUSE) (http://www.se4u.org/) to raise awareness and campaign for a university for the South East region. It will consist of 22 legs of roughly 8km segments.

The run will begin at the Clock Tower on the Quay in Waterford city at 10am on Monday, will go along the N9/N10 to Kilkenny city, reaching the city sometime in the late afternoon. On Tuesday the race will proceed along the N10/N9 towards Dublin, passing through Carlow town around mid-morning. After Carlow the race will take the N81 to Dublin.

The final legs of the race will be run on Wednesday morning, and it will finish outside the Dáil on Kildare st, Dublin at 2pm. At that point there will be a rally and the relay baton will be handed over to senior government figures along with a letter and petition.

The people of the South East will have their chance to show their support in Dublin between 1.30pm and 2.30pm. There will also be some entertainment at the event involving artists and entertainers from the region, as well as light refreshments.

Buses have been organised to ferry people to the main event outside Leinster House. They will leave Parnell st. in Waterford city at 9am. Bus times for Carlow and possibly Kilkenny will be announced in due course.

A university in the South East will benefit all of us, so please try your best to come along and show your support, and encourage others to do the same. The race will be covered by Beat 102/103 and on the se4u.org website.

Sully

Iv deleted all your duplicate topics across the South East Forums about this, as I think one is enough.

Thanks.

merlante

Sully wrote: »

Iv deleted all your duplicate topics across the South East Forums about this, as I think one is enough.

Thanks.

I expected as much, but one topic is not enough considering that I'd say the post is now reaching about 40% of the south east posters because of it. This thread has as much relevance to Tipperary or Wexford as has to Waterford city.

Still, not your problem I guess.

gravity1036

merlante wrote: »

I expected as much, but one topic is not enough considering that I'd say the post is now reaching about 40% of the south east posters because of it. This thread has as much relevance to Tipperary or Wexford as has to Waterford city.

Still, not your problem I guess.

Agreed, I'm only new here but the setup of seemingly not being able to talk to multiple focus groups about a common problem is pretty much like a clandestine organisation where only people who know people get to find out anything. What ever happened to free speech? As merlante says the message has just failed to reach possibly 60% of the intended and interested audience.

Sully

Iv sent you a PM addresssing your concerns. Lets not kill the topic before it has a chance to even start!

Sully

gravity1036 wrote: »

Agreed, I'm only new here but the setup of seemingly not being able to talk to multiple focus groups about a common problem is pretty much like a clandestine organisation where only people who know people get to find out anything. What ever happened to free speech? As merlante says the message has just failed to reach possibly 60% of the intended and interested audience.

Feel free to address the matter in the Feedback forum.


BeatFM will publish notices about the run anyway, so id say you have not missed the intended (and possibly interested) auidence

Any other off-topic posts will be removed from this point, there is no need to kill the topic before it even has a chance to start!

Beruthiel

merlante wrote: »

I expected as much, but one topic is not enough considering that I'd say the post is now reaching about 40% of the south east posters because of it. This thread has as much relevance to Tipperary or Wexford as has to Waterford city.

Please be aware that I normally site ban people who spam this site.
As you are a long time member, I did not do so this time.

longshanks

merlante wrote: »

A relay run between Waterford and Dublin, via Kilkenny city and Carlow town, has been organised from this Monday 31st March

city??? i think not

Sully wrote: »

Feel free to address the matter in the Feedback forum.


BeatFM will publish notices about ...

not too many people over the age of about 20 listen to that station. 'its a big pile of cock' would be the reason they'd give

fricatus

Nice constructive post there, longshanks... :rolleyes:

ec18

gravity1036 wrote: »

Agreed, I'm only new here but the setup of seemingly not being able to talk to multiple focus groups about a common problem is pretty much like a clandestine organisation where only people who know people get to find out anything. What ever happened to free speech? As merlante says the message has just failed to reach possibly 60% of the intended and interested audience.

What makes you think they are interested?

Sully

longshanks wrote: »

not too many people over the age of about 20 listen to that station. 'its a big pile of cock' would be the reason they'd give

Not to many people over the age of about 20 post on Boards.ie South East Regional section either.

longshanks

fricatus wrote: »

Nice constructive post there, longshanks... :rolleyes:

constructive??? i think not???


sully, you're saying everyone posting on the southeast forum is under 20????
cop on to yourself would ya.

Sully

longshanks wrote: »

sully, you're saying everyone posting on the southeast forum is under 20????
cop on to yourself would ya.

Nope. My point is that Beat will hit more people over 20 (or under) then Boards.ie South East Regional Forums will.

JohnC.

longshanks wrote: »

city??? i think not

A Royal Charter in 1609 and Section 10(7) of the Local Government Act 2001 says it is.

Sully

Please lets not get into the city debate, PLEASE. For all our sakes.

Bards

FYI, I know a hell of a lot more people over the age of 20 that post on Boards.ie than I do who listen to Beat!!

Sully

Bards: Im not talking about Boards.ie specificly. Im talking about the regional forum for the South East which is extremely quiet. Its nothing compared to the Waterford City forum. At this stage - Beat will gain more advertising for the South East then the Boards.ie Regional Forum will (unless you took out banner adverts, or did a forum announcment which was not requested).

So, I dont see any loss.

longshanks

and if you dont see it, apparently, it isnt there

Sully

longshanks wrote: »

and if you dont see it, apparently, it isnt there

What?

Maharet

The run entered Dublin today and will end outside the Dáil at approx. 2.15pm tomorrow, if anyone can be there to support the runners and the extremely important issue they are representing, please be there to cheer on the final runner. Our entire region needs this university!

Sully

Some WIT Students will already be in Dublin in the WIT University Application Demo. Apparently we will on Grafton St. however ill pass your message onto the lads and see what we can do about getting over to you.

Maharet

Sully wrote: »

Some WIT Students will already be in Dublin in the WIT University Application Demo. Apparently we will on Grafton St. however ill pass your message onto the lads and see what we can do about getting over to you.

That'd be great if ye could Sully, the more publicity for this the better, then the Government can't ignore WITs application anymore! I can't be there myself, but there will be other FUSE members and as well as other people there to show their support.

Bards

Unfortunatley I think this will be overshadowed by An Taoiseach's resignation which was announced today - pity!

Maharet

Bards wrote: »

Unfortunatley I think this will be overshadowed by An Taoiseach's resignation which was announced today - pity!

Yeah funny that! About time he was gone.

merlante

Bards wrote: »

Unfortunatley I think this will be overshadowed by An Taoiseach's resignation which was announced today - pity!

To put it mildy. Ah well. We'll get there in the end.

gravity1036

ec18 wrote: »

What makes you think they are interested?

The same thing that makes Fianna Fail, and other political parties, think that their "public service announcements" on national TV that we pay licence fees for are of interest to the entire country. At least this topic was posted in a regional context and aimed at people that should be interested in the development of their region. That's why they should be interested, if you're not then why bother replying or are you just out to rise me?

gravity1036

Bards wrote: »

Unfortunatley I think this will be overshadowed by An Taoiseach's resignation which was announced today - pity!

If I was paranoid I'd say the blighter did it to spite us but we all know that the real reason was to cover the media so that nobody saw Bev Cooper coming back in the backdoor to FF. :eek:

Sully

gravity1036 wrote: »

If I was paranoid I'd say the blighter did it to spite us but we all know that the real reason was to cover the media so that nobody saw Bev Cooper coming back in the backdoor to FF. :eek:

I thought that myself.

Bards wrote: »

Unfortunatley I think this will be overshadowed by An Taoiseach's resignation which was announced today - pity!

I spoke in person with some of the press and a lot didnt care what we had to say. Mainly cause of Bertie, but also because there are protests there everyday of the week (apparently).

I think TV3 and Beat were the only ones who did coverage. I emailed RTE and asked for an explanation but no response yet.

ec18

gravity1036 wrote: »

The same thing that makes Fianna Fail, and other political parties, think that their "public service announcements" on national TV that we pay licence fees for are of interest to the entire country. At least this topic was posted in a regional context and aimed at people that should be interested in the development of their region. That's why they should be interested, if you're not then why bother replying or are you just out to rise me?

If I wanted to get a rise out of you i could do a lot better than that. WIT students aren't interested, I'm sure there are a lot of people who are and fair play to them for having such an interest...but the impression that I get from you is that you maybe a bit overbearing and almost shove the interest down people throat. If I am wrong than ok....I have no problem apologising

gravity1036

ec18 wrote: »

If I wanted to get a rise out of you i could do a lot better than that. WIT students aren't interested, I'm sure there are a lot of people who are and fair play to them for having such an interest...but the impression that I get from you is that you maybe a bit overbearing and almost shove the interest down people throat. If I am wrong than ok....I have no problem apologising

Apology accepted.

The feeling I'm getting from your response is that you have spoken to every single student in WIT. I have no problem apologising either if you have but my guess is that you don't have a clue what every student of WIT is thinking nor do you represent them. Read the petition on se4u.org and you'll see plenty of current and past WIT students have signed it.

Your question to me was what made me think that people where interested? There was no specifier for WIT students in that question, it was an open-ended and generic asking. I responded with the context and reason that people should be interested because it affects their region's development and hence future. My only interest is to make sure that people know what this means that it's not just an educational facility but a catalyst for the entire region's rejuvenation. I'd be a very sad and sorry individual if I wasn't out there shouting that from the tree tops but rather leaving the message to detractors to broadcast.

Sully

gravity1036 wrote: »

The feeling I'm getting from your response is that you have spoken to every single student in WIT. I have no problem apologising either if you have but my guess is that you don't have a clue what every student of WIT is thinking nor do you represent them.

With that comment, I assume you spoke with every student in WIT about this? Funny, I never spotted the question posed to me or any of my year (or the year before me or after me).

Read the petition on se4u.org and you'll see plenty of current and past WIT students have signed it.

How can you be so sure that they are all current WIT Students? I havent looked, but I recall someone working out in the TSSG spotting a lot of WIT / TSSG Staff on that list.

I never, nor did ec18, state that every student in WIT is against it. However, there seems to be a large number of people who ARE against it.

ec18

This seems a pointless debate as alot of specialists and political analysts seem to be leaning toward having increasing the funding and profile of out current universities then making more ones that simply don't match up.
Admittedly I am a cynic and believe that they will not upgrade WIT nor grant a University to the South East, but instead will increase the funding to the existing universities.

@Gravity the view of every single person is irrelevant in a democracy as the majority rules. So I only need to have 51% of WIT students for my view to be correct not all of them

gravity1036

Sully wrote: »

With that comment, I assume you spoke with every student in WIT about this? Funny, I never spotted the question posed to me or any of my year (or the year before me or after me).

Eh no. :rolleyes: ec18 said that "WIT students are not interested" - (s)he has no grounds to make that statement as I could go out tomorrow and round up oodles of students who are in favour of it. Why are people being so negative about this when it affects all of our futures? I haven't spoken to every student in WIT but nor do I profess to represent them in the same way as that statement by ec18 would allude to.

Sully wrote: »

How can you be so sure that they are all current WIT Students? I havent looked, but I recall someone working out in the TSSG spotting a lot of WIT / TSSG Staff on that list.

I never, nor did ec18, state that every student in WIT is against it. However, there seems to be a large number of people who ARE against it.

I can be as sure as I can from recognising plenty of the names on that petition that are not WIT/TSSG staff. Why would you even imply such a thing and then follow it up with "I haven't looked", it just makes you look as if you're a wee bit bitter about something if you're trying to back up somebody else's argument without doing your own research.

The reply was to ec18 BTW not you, so there was no accusation that you stated that every student in WIT...

Maybe there are a good number of people against it, I'm sure that there are a good number of people against your and ec18's opinions too. Do you loose sleep over it? I would guess not, in the same way that I don't worry about a minority of detractors in an overwhelmingly supportive majority. If ye guys are that pi$$ed with the WIT for some reason then try thinking outside the box for a moment and to what this facility means for FDI, start-up businesses, regional development and economic growth above your gripes with class quality, etc. Funding, time to mature and academic freedom will dramatically improve the quality of everything else in the college over time, just like it has done previously for the unis of this land, but detracting based on some personal gripe with facilities above a strong regional, economic and future-facing argument is just nonsense. Move on!

gravity1036

ec18 wrote: »

@Gravity the view of every single person is irrelevant in a democracy as the majority rules. So I only need to have 51% of WIT students for my view to be correct not all of them

Yet again prove that or don't bother saying it.

Who are these specialists and analysts to whom you refer? Are we talking TCD professors with vested interests are we talking independent experts of whom all have overwhelmingly favoured the case? Quote or don't bother making a negative remark - there's plenty of negative whingers out there without associating yourself with them. I'm sure you must have more to offer than that?

If you believe so strongly in democracy can I just invite 3 others that support the case to target you and make you shut up because we're the majority? No, it doesn't work that way but at least we'd be dealing with real, proveable figures in that case. Making statements that you can't back up, even in the slightest, is just silly and being negative for the sake of it rather than trying to see the bigger picture.

ec18

gravity1036 wrote: »

Yet again prove that or don't bother saying it.

Who are these specialists and analysts to whom you refer? Are we talking TCD professors with vested interests are we talking independent experts of whom all have overwhelmingly favoured the case? Quote or don't bother making a negative remark - there's plenty of negative whingers out there without associating yourself with them. I'm sure you must have more to offer than that?

If you believe so strongly in democracy can I just invite 3 others that support the case to target you and make you shut up because we're the majority? No, it doesn't work that way but at least we'd be dealing with real, proveable figures in that case. Making statements that you can't back up, even in the slightest, is just silly and being negative for the sake of it rather than trying to see the bigger picture.

Whether these TCD professors have vested interests or not they are well respected and their opinions carry a lot of weight. Have you read Peter Sutherland's article in the Irish Times he writes strongly in favour of better funding our current universities instead of adding more under funded ones.
If you feel that you need to gang up on in order to prove your point then by all means do. It will not affect the currently most probable outcome.

Also I do not see how a TCD professor could have vested interests as Trinity is not under threat from a South East University. It is simply to well established for a new uni to affect it.

Bards

ec18 wrote: »

Also I do not see how a TCD professor could have vested interests as Trinity is not under threat from a South East University. It is simply to well established for a new uni to affect it.

He is afraid that TCD's funding may be reduced due to an extra Univetsity having to be funded from the same pie.

Whereas, the independent reports such as Goodbody and Dr. Port all say that upgrading WIT to University will be neutral in terms of additional funding, as the extra revenue generated in the economy will offset any funding that may be required to bring WIT up to University standard.

Sully

gravity1036 wrote: »

Eh no. :rolleyes: ec18 said that "WIT students are not interested" - (s)he has no grounds to make that statement as I could go out tomorrow and round up oodles of students who are in favour of it. Why are people being so negative about this when it affects all of our futures? I haven't spoken to every student in WIT but nor do I profess to represent them in the same way as that statement by ec18 would allude to.

Fair enough it was a sweeping statement, but thats not what I was talking about. Students that I have spoken to are negative mainly because WIT is such a shambles as it is, will University improve or make it worse? They think it will make it worse.

I can be as sure as I can from recognising plenty of the names on that petition that are not WIT/TSSG staff. Why would you even imply such a thing and then follow it up with "I haven't looked", it just makes you look as if you're a wee bit bitter about something if you're trying to back up somebody else's argument without doing your own research.

What a lame argument. Can I not voice an opinion, even if its totaly ****ed up and of the rails? I do believe I can (within reason of course). How in the name of jesus is it "bitter". Im not backing up anyones argument, im responding to a point you made - its a discussion forum and I am entitled to do so (within reason).

My point is that based on what I am told, the start of the petition was mostly TSSG/WIT Staff and not students. Names were given to me, but I dont know them so I cant confirm nor deny they are. Nor do I really care, a petition wont get you very far imo.

The reply was to ec18 BTW not you, so there was no accusation that you stated that every student in WIT...

See earlier point about it being a discussion board.

Maybe there are a good number of people against it, I'm sure that there are a good number of people against your and ec18's opinions too. Do you loose sleep over it? I would guess not,[/quote]

Why yes, Yes I do loose sleep over it.

[quite]in the same way that I don't worry about a minority of detractors in an overwhelmingly supportive majority. If ye guys are that pi$$ed with the WIT for some reason then try thinking outside the box for a moment and to what this facility means for FDI, start-up businesses, regional development and economic growth above your gripes with class quality, etc. Funding, time to mature and academic freedom will dramatically improve the quality of everything else in the college over time, just like it has done previously for the unis of this land, but detracting based on some personal gripe with facilities above a strong regional, economic and future-facing argument is just nonsense. Move on![/QUOTE]

Sorry, I never said I was against WIT becoming a university. Im rather undecided, but im more for then against.

You see, a big problem with people on this discussion is they wont hear anyone elses views. A lot of people are narrow minded and if people over a counter argument or disagree there is big arguments and people start calling each other names. Its like we cant debate things properly here at all. Similarly, when I made some contradictions (no matter how wrong or right I am) you start accusing me of getting personal and not thinking outside the box! You gotta think inside AND outside the box and make a decision based on that.

gravity1036

Bards wrote: »

He is afraid that TCD's funding may be reduced due to an extra Univetsity having to be funded from the same pie.

Whereas, the independent reports such as Goodbody and Dr. Port all say that upgrading WIT to University will be neutral in terms of additional funding, as the extra revenue generated in the economy will offset any funding that may be required to bring WIT up to University standard.

Precisely Bards!

I'm not even going to respond to ec18's last post as (s)he obviously hasn't taken the time to understand that somebody working for a university that stands to share it's funding with another could possibly have a vested interest. Nor do they seem to understand exactly what weight an independent report by international experts carries in terms of making unbiased judgement on the case.

gravity1036

Sully wrote: »

Fair enough it was a sweeping statement, but thats not what I was talking about. Students that I have spoken to are negative mainly because WIT is such a shambles as it is, will University improve or make it worse? They think it will make it worse.

Personal opinion Sully, based on very personal viewpoints I would imagine. The purpose of this overall discussion and case is to determine whether or not the South East needs a university - that is the question at the cabinet table. People with gripes about the quality of the teaching, which is highly subjective BTW without knowing that each complainant is a genius rather than a thicko, don't really have a lot to add to a discussion about whether the need exists or not.

Sully wrote: »

What a lame argument. Can I not voice an opinion, even if its totaly ****ed up and of the rails? I do believe I can (within reason of course). How in the name of jesus is it "bitter". Im not backing up anyones argument, im responding to a point you made - its a discussion forum and I am entitled to do so (within reason).

Of course you can voice an opinion dear sir, feel free to. My argument wasn't lame because it wasn't an argument, just a point. You jumped onto somebody else's argument with your cowboy hat in the air shouting yee-haw and then failed to back-up anything by openly admitting that you haven't even read the petition in question. What difference does it make even if WIT/TSSG people have signed it, are they not entitled to? Does that mean that it's entirely composed of these folk? Certainly not!

Sully wrote: »

My point is that based on what I am told, the start of the petition was mostly TSSG/WIT Staff and not students. Names were given to me, but I dont know them so I cant confirm nor deny they are. Nor do I really care, a petition wont get you very far imo.

Why add this if yet again you admit that you do not know - pointless rambling which serves no purpose other than you trying to allude to a hidden agenda/vested interest which is not the case.

Sully wrote: »

See earlier point about it being a discussion board.

Why yes, Yes I do loose sleep over it.

Sorry to hear that.

Sully wrote: »

Sorry, I never said I was against WIT becoming a university. Im rather undecided, but im more for then against.

For somebody who's more for it than against it you're expressing a lot of negativity about something that isn't even the University of the South East nor the main points in the case for such. Further more you're going a long way to implying that the employees of WIT are the only major group backing it which is certainly not the case. Successful Irish business people, sporting stars, and educational experts are all supporting it too, I refer you to last Tuesday's Irish Times if you haven't seen the full page letter of support yet.

Sully wrote: »

You see, a big problem with people on this discussion is they wont hear anyone elses views. A lot of people are narrow minded and if people over a counter argument or disagree there is big arguments and people start calling each other names. Its like we cant debate things properly here at all. Similarly, when I made some contradictions (no matter how wrong or right I am) you start accusing me of getting personal and not thinking outside the box! You gotta think inside AND outside the box and make a decision based on that.

I'm very open to hearing people's views on whether or not we need a university in the South East. What I'm not open to is people, possibly undergrads with personal gripes having never been to another 3rd level college, coming out and slamming the case because they feel the quality isn't there in WIT. By all means have that discussion if you want but try to focus on whether or not a university is needed for the region too instead of just spouting negativity that will essentially make the region defeat itself in this argument - we'll end up with no progress if that is the only talk emanating from the region.

In reference to your contradictions, well you didn't really have any. You just continually implied that the signatures of the people that you don't know on the petition that you haven't read are in some way vested interests or invalid. By all means Sully put a proper debate on the table and I'll gladly engage with you but as somebody who is very much behind this case and wants to see the entire South East develop so that some day my kids and everyone else's can have the options that I didn't have, you'll forgive me for being a bit grumpy towards people who are not asking the question about whether we need a university but merely giving out about their personal and limited experience with their only 3rd level undertaking.

ec18

This is all pointless anyway as unless Bertie grants a university in his closing weeks it's not going to happen. So shout all you want about the regional argument but its highly unlikely that it's going to make a difference

gravity1036

ec18 wrote: »

This is all pointless anyway as unless Bertie grants a university in his closing weeks it's not going to happen. So shout all you want about the regional argument but its highly unlikely that it's going to make a difference

You don't work for the Samaritans do you?

ec18

no afraid not

Bards

I am going to quote the last paragraph from the Editorial in the Irish times because I feel it sums up the whole argument.

Quote - "But Waterford has a persuasive case that has been eloquently and convincingly advanced over an extended period. It deserves to be successful on it's own merits. And it should be possible to ring fence a decision in its favour to ensure the role of the wider IoT sector is not compromised"

gravity1036

Bards wrote: »

I am going to quote the last paragraph from the Editorial in the Irish times because I feel it sums up the whole argument.

Quote - "But Waterford has a persuasive case that has been eloquently and convincingly advanced over an extended period. It deserves to be successful on it's own merits. And it should be possible to ring fence a decision in its favour to ensure the role of the wider IoT sector is not compromised"

No further comment needed really. A few weeks back the Irish Times was delivering stories that were very set against this facility being granted to the South East. Now on Saturday, this editorial combined with the article from Seán Flynn on how students tend to flock to a university on their own doorstep rather than going away, all highlight the need and now increasing media support for this decision to be made for the establishment of a university in the South East. Let's hope that the decision makers make the right choice for the sake of national profit and regional parity. An under-performing region is a relative drain on the national economy.

ec18

Bards wrote: »

I am going to quote the last paragraph from the Editorial in the Irish times because I feel it sums up the whole argument.

Quote - "But Waterford has a persuasive case that has been eloquently and convincingly advanced over an extended period. It deserves to be successful on it's own merits. And it should be possible to ring fence a decision in its favour to ensure the role of the wider IoT sector is not compromised"

Thats Selective quoting to back up your opinion. The editorial also mentions both Dr.Ports and the OECD report that state Ireland has enough universities

Port refers to the finding of the 2004 OECD report on the third level sector which stated inter alia that the state had enough Universities and argued for the preservation of the current University/IoT mix. This has served the state well with the jobs and technology focus of the institutes complementing the work of the universities.

Bards

ec18 wrote: »

Thats Selective quoting to back up your opinion. The editorial also mentions both Dr.Ports and the OECD report that state Ireland has enough universities

The editorial does indeed highlight that Dr Port has concerens about other IoT's jumping on the bandwagon but the last paragraph is the summary of the whole article so I don't think it is selective reporting on my part.

merlante

ec18 wrote: »

Thats Selective quoting to back up your opinion. The editorial also mentions both Dr.Ports and the OECD report that state Ireland has enough universities

Quoting the woman's *conclusion* is hardly selective quoting.

ec18

it is when you ignore the negatives of the piece

merlante

ec18 wrote: »

it is when you ignore the negatives of the piece

No it's not. She gives the pro and con arguments, then she gives the above conclusion, which is very positive.

Bards

merlante wrote: »

No it's not. She gives the pro and con arguments, then she gives the above conclusion, which is very positive.

Exactly!! If in doubt please read the whole article again. it has a beginning, a middle and a conclusion, which I quoted

Sully

gravity1036 wrote: »

Personal opinion Sully, based on very personal viewpoints I would imagine. The purpose of this overall discussion and case is to determine whether or not the South East needs a university - that is the question at the cabinet table. People with gripes about the quality of the teaching, which is highly subjective BTW without knowing that each complainant is a genius rather than a thicko, don't really have a lot to add to a discussion about whether the need exists or not.

Sorry but this is a discussion board. If you are not willing to listen to all points raised in the discussion, I advise you take this discussion somewhere there is a more narrow minded group willing to take on your limited discussion. All points are valid points and feel free to debate the point, but do not lay out a specific set of points and refuse to hear any others. Which my friend, is exactly what you are doing.

Overall organisation, teaching quality, services available etc. might be considered "small" to you but to others who use this as a reason for not wanting it to be a university, you can take it in and give your reasons why this point isnt valid. That is a point raised, and you have to listen to it regardless if you want to take part in this discussion properly (ignoring them is fine). Bare in mind, that I have heard the counter arguments against it and it has changed my viewpoint considerably. Despite what you seem to think, I am undecided on the University status but I am more supporting it then against it.

Of course you can voice an opinion dear sir, feel free to. My argument wasn't lame because it wasn't an argument, just a point. You jumped onto somebody else's argument with your cowboy hat in the air shouting yee-haw and then failed to back-up anything by openly admitting that you haven't even read the petition in question. What difference does it make even if WIT/TSSG people have signed it, are they not entitled to? Does that mean that it's entirely composed of these folk? Certainly not!

Sorry, it was a lame point. My bad. This is a discussion form, as I said earlier, and I am perfectly permitted to respond to you or others points. Its not a private conversation and if you want that, take it to PM. Otherwise, expect me (and others) to reply to your (or anyone elses) points. End of. Oh and, drop the stupid comments - everyone has been somewat mature here and id hate to see one person drag that away.

WIT/TSSG staff are allowed and should always be permitted to sign such petitions. My point is, its biased to say that everyone is in support when the petition at the start was a lot of WIT Staff or connections and not general public. If that is the case, if not, my apologises.

Why add this if yet again you admit that you do not know - pointless rambling which serves no purpose other than you trying to allude to a hidden agenda/vested interest which is not the case.

What is this personal thing that I am supposed to have against WIT? Please, enligthen me since you clearly know so much about me.

For somebody who's more for it than against it you're expressing a lot of negativity about something that isn't even the University of the South East nor the main points in the case for such. Further more you're going a long way to implying that the employees of WIT are the only major group backing it which is certainly not the case. Successful Irish business people, sporting stars, and educational experts are all supporting it too, I refer you to last Tuesday's Irish Times if you haven't seen the full page letter of support yet.

Ah now, seriously. Thats a complete load of bollix.
1) I have taken more of a backseat approach to this conversation and have not been very active,
2) I become active to either moderate if needed or to address points I feel I would like to raise,
3) The points (I do believe) were not my personal opinion on why WIT should not or should get a university status. Instead, I said what others seem to think that I have discussed it with. Your intelligence should show you that neither are the same. They, my friend, are polar opposites.

I raised these points simply because ec18 was the only one who came forward with the comments (in this thread) which I have my own personal experiences with. His views, are not supported by me at all. He seems to be set against it.

I'm very open to hearing people's views on whether or not we need a university in the South East. What I'm not open to is people, possibly undergrads with personal gripes having never been to another 3rd level college, coming out and slamming the case because they feel the quality isn't there in WIT.

A view supported by many of the lecturers inside in the WIT, people who work with the students problems or work inside in some of the college departments. Its widely known (at least to the large majority I have met since starting college) that WIT is fairly unorganised and has problems, but a lot of people feel this will be fixed on granting university status. Others, dont think so and this is why they dont support it - which is their opinion.

By all means have that discussion if you want but try to focus on whether or not a university is needed for the region too instead of just spouting negativity that will essentially make the region defeat itself in this argument - we'll end up with no progress if that is the only talk emanating from the region.

I dont think I have EVER said that the application should only be considered on WITs academic or service grounds. It does have a large part to play in it, but consideration to the greater impact in the South East is also needed. However, please note, the application should not ONLY consider the South East impact and ignore how the college is run etc. Both are factored in.

In reference to your contradictions, well you didn't really have any. You just continually implied that the signatures of the people that you don't know on the petition that you haven't read are in some way vested interests or invalid. By all means Sully put a proper debate on the table and I'll gladly engage with you but as somebody who is very much behind this case and wants to see the entire South East develop so that some day my kids and everyone else's can have the options that I didn't have, you'll forgive me for being a bit grumpy towards people who are not asking the question about whether we need a university but merely giving out about their personal and limited experience with their only 3rd level undertaking.

My memory can be dodgy, but have I said the whole petition was only WIT Staff / Connections? I could have sworn I said the start of it was, and that if it continued that way the petition would be biased. However, there are other petitions (which I have signed) which had staff, connections, general public and students.

Fair enough, I shouldnt have commented without viewing the petition. It was a poor assumption on my behalf (to say that the start of it was biased, and if it continued that way the whole petition would be biased also), but I never applied the whole petition was (factually) biased or supported by only the college. Trust me, its supported by a LOT more people with no connections.