Praying for Diabetes

cavedave

Madeline Neumann, a young girl of just 11 years old has died from diabetic ketoacidosis after her parents choose to pray for her instead of getting her treated for her condition by doctors.

From here


What consequences do you think allowing this to happen should have? Do you think her siblings should be removed from her parents?

"They are still in the home, there is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."

Rev Hellfire

I see no reason why children should be removed, tbh while the beliefs of the parents are questionable (at best) they may be (and possibly are) exemplary parents in other ways.

I personally don't believe that when dealing with minors with commonly treatable illnesses the welfare of the child should come before the religious beliefs of the parents and the state/medical professions should step in.

PDN

If they had known she had diabetes, and denied her treatment, then that would, IMHO, constitute neglect or cruelty and warrant prosecution or social services intervention.

However, / according to the AP report: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-ap-wi-prayerdeath,1,5890474.storythe condition was undiagnosed - so I guess it depends whether her symptoms were severe enough that they should have realised that something was seriously wrong. Every parent knows what it is to wonder whether a child's sickness is something that warrants getting the doctor in or whether it is just a minor bug.

I also noticed that the parents were not members of any church or faith, so they had no priest or pastor to give them advice in this situation. Most clergy are trained to tell parents in similar circumstances, "Take them to the doctors to make sure everything is OK - and if you want to demonstrate your faith you can be praying on the way there."

Zombrex

cavedave wrote: »

What consequences do you think allowing this to happen should have? Do you think her siblings should be removed from her parents?

Yes, and the parents should be prosecuted for child neglect resulting in death.

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

However, / according to the AP report: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-ap-wi-prayerdeath,1,5890474.storythe condition was undiagnosed - so I guess it depends whether her symptoms were severe enough that they should have realised that something was seriously wrong.

The condition was undiagnosed because the parents had not taken their daughter to a doctor since she was 3 years old.

The symptoms of diabetic ketoacidosis include nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness. The police suspect that the girl had been suffering from these symptoms for approx 30 days before she died. The parents admit that the girl had been weak and sick for a while and took a turn for the worst two days before she died, but they didn't believe her life was at risk and simply continued to pray for her rather than seeking medical attention, because "healing comes from God"

They say they have nothing against doctors, they just didn't think there was anything wrong with the girl that couldn't be cured through prayer.

http://www.rhinelanderdailynews.com/articles/2008/03/27/ap-state-wi/d8vlb5581.txt

Zombrex

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I personally don't believe that when dealing with minors with commonly treatable illnesses the welfare of the child should come before the religious beliefs of the parents and the state/medical professions should step in.

You don't think the welfare of the child should come before the religious beliefs of the parents? Are you serious?

Rev Hellfire

Wicknight wrote: »

You don't think the welfare of the child should come before the religious beliefs of the parents? Are you serious?

Today would appear to be opposite day for me

Want I meant to say was that the childs needs come before their parents beliefs when it deals with life or death treatment.

death1234567

Wicknight wrote: »

Yes, and the parents should be prosecuted for child neglect resulting in death.

Ladies and Gentlemen we have a winner.

And what have you won? Well its this gold plated, handcrafted, beautifully decorated King James Bible!
{whispers}... What do you mean you don't want it... Athe-what?

Rev Hellfire

The situation is very similar to the Jehovah witness situation earlier this year, does anyone know how that case concluded ?

cavedave

Rev Hellfire The situation is very similar to the Jehovah witness situation earlier this year, does anyone know how that case concluded ?

If you mean the case where the Jehovah witness woman was forced to have a blood transfusion I think it is still before the courts. I support her right to kill herself (assuming you can be sure about the consent). IMHO unless you have the right to do what you want with your own body you basically have no rights.

The case with children is different though because it is not your body you are controlling then.

death1234567

Is that the one where they refused a blood transfusion? I think the courts said that the doctors we right and the blood transfusion was done. Not 100% sure though.

Rev Hellfire

cavedave wrote: »

If you mean the case where the Jehovah witness woman was forced to have a blood transfusion I think it is still before the courts. I support her right to kill herself (assuming you can be sure about the consent). IMHO unless you have the right to do what you want with your own body you basically have no rights.

The case with children is different though because it is not your body you are controlling then.

The two are tied in that I believe part of the argument was that mother deserved to be saved since the child had a right to have a mother. ie. the mother can't just kill herself absolving herself of her parental responsibilities due to religion. Although I may be wrong.

addition: By child I mean new born infant.

death1234567

cavedave wrote: »

I support her right to kill herself .

Suicide is illegal.

philologos

Christian parents have to realise that the medical system is one of the means that is presecribed for us. Praying to God does not mean rejecting all help that is in the world that He has created surely?

cavedave

ie. the mother can't just kill herself absolving herself of her parental responsibilities due to religion.

That is a fair point. Basically in becoming a parent do you lose your individual rights while your child is a child? In some ways I think you should, for example a father should have to pay child maintenance.

This does seem slightly off the topic of how stupid are parents allowed act for religious reasons that they would not be get away with for any other reasons?

cavedave

death1234567

Suicide is illegal.

I do not think it is. And i do not think it should be.

Since 1993 the act of suicide (the taking of one’s own life with criminal intent) by itself is no longer a crime

according to here

Rev Hellfire

cavedave wrote: »

This does seem slightly off the topic of how stupid are parents allowed act for religious reasons that they would not be get away with for any other reasons?

To a point I'd agree, its just with respect to the case linked above its similar in that both the religious views of the parent(s) would have been detrimental to the child, alas only in one where they overridden. There the religious rights of the parents where placed secondary to the welfare of the child.

Dades

This was posted by pH in Generally Strange, btw.
But since there's a bit of momentum behind this thread now, all I'll say is:

"Call on God, but row away from the rocks."

Oh, and +1 for prosecuting the parents.

death1234567

cavedave wrote: »

I do not think it is. according to here

Interesting, thanks for the link.

Zillah

Dades wrote: »

Oh, and +1 for prosecuting the parents.

Hell yes, criminal neglect resulting in death.

It has also been revealed that Leilani Neumann also believes that her dead child would be resurrected.

I hate religion.

EDIT:

This child is now dead because two idiots were told it was ok to believe in magic:

Zombrex

Zillah wrote: »

I hate religion.

+1

death1234567

Zillah wrote: »

I hate religion.

Me Too

Zillah wrote: »

This child is now dead because two idiots were told it was ok to believe in magic:

+1 Its a Disgrace.

kowloon

I'm only out of hospital from a case of DKA and up till the coma its not very pleasant, i would dump any religious belief in a heartbeat to avoid it.
No normal parent would watch their child die that way, its not quick.

adamd164

kowloon wrote: »

I'm only out of hospital from a case of DKA and up till the coma its not very pleasant, i would dump any religious belief in a heartbeat to avoid it.
No normal parent would watch their child die that way, its not quick.

Religion is poison. Nuff said.

Dades

adamd164 wrote: »

Religion is poison.

Maybe when taken on it's own...

Splendour

cavedave wrote: »

From here


What consequences do you think allowing this to happen should have? Do you think her siblings should be removed from her parents?

I think the parents are in obvious need of psychiatric treatment.
Mind you, where do we draw the line? There are plenty of parents of obese children which IMO is also child abuse. Albeit, they may not be praying about it, but they are still neglecting their children.

cavedave

kowloon

I'm only out of hospital from a case of DKA and up till the coma its not very pleasant

That sounds really nasty. I hope you are getting better now.

Mind you, where do we draw the line? There are plenty of parents of obese children which IMO is also child abuse. Albeit, they may not be praying about it, but they are still neglecting their children.

Moderate obesity will not kill you until you are quite old. Severe obesity could lead to things like diabetes and there are reports of really young children developing severe conditions due to their obesity. How dangerous do a parents actions need to be before you can force them to take actions to help their children? Do religious people deserve a get out clause for some dangerous actions (circumcision say)?

DinoBot

I believe in the power of prayer...................in creating more self delusion


http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/god5.htm

eoin5

Dades wrote: »

Maybe when taken on it's own...

And certainly when taken without being perscribed.

Splendour

cavedave wrote: »

Moderate obesity will not kill you until you are quite old. Severe obesity could lead to things like diabetes and there are reports of really young children developing severe conditions due to their obesity. How dangerous do a parents actions need to be before you can force them to take actions to help their children? Do religious people deserve a get out clause for some dangerous actions (circumcision say)?

These parents are abusing their chid by setting them up for risks later on in life. As are parents who let their kids do what they want with no disipline-these children are more likely to be offenders later on in life.Parents who beat the c**p out of a kids are also setting their kids up to be child abusers when they have their own kids.

How dangerous indeed do parents actions have to be before we can force them to take actions to help their children? And obviously 'no' would be my answer to religous folk having a get out clause...

pH

Bump!

Finally going to trial:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/21/us/21faith.html?_r=2

This I found particularly chilling:
Wisconsin law, he noted, exempts a parent or guardian who treats a child with only prayer from being criminally charged with neglecting child welfare laws, but only “as long as a condition is not life threatening.” Kara’s parents, Judge Howard wrote, “were very well aware of her deteriorating medical condition.”

Seriously, there's religious freedom, but using it as a get out clause for all child abuse up to "life threatening" seems way over the top to me.

Dades

Interesting they deny their child a doctor, but have no problem hiring lawyers paid for by donations.

They're clearly not so sure about God's help on that one.

Dave!

Actually, I recall a discussion on Newstalk a while ago where someone was explaining the situation in Ireland for this kind of thing, and he said that basically it's the same deal (based on court rulings)... If witholding the treatment will result in death, then the state may intervene; but if it 'merely' results in diminished health or sickness, then it's left to the parents.

Dunno if I have it 100% correct, but that's how I recall it anyway.

What a precarious situation to be in for the sake of respecting religion.

Goduznt Xzst

Dades wrote: »

Interesting they deny their child a doctor, but have no problem hiring lawyers paid for by donations.

They're clearly not so sure about God's help on that one.

It actually sickens me their hypocrisy. They leave their childs health and ultimate death up to the whim of some non existant deity, but when it comes to actually attoning for their negligence they now choose to rely on the powers of man to help them over their God. How utterly deplorable.

Hivemind187

Hardly suprising the parents are opting for human help on this one. Throughout history every side in every battle has claimed God was on their side.

No doubt if they win they will claim that God intervened on their behalf and not the 3000 years of culmative education their lawyer had behind him.

If they lose I suppose people will blame the judges and prosecution for "interfering in gods work".

As regards the case ... they are guilty as sin and should have to face the consequences. The other children should be taken into care because clearly the parents are willing to put their faith in supernatural intervention above the welfare of their child - to my mind that makes the parents not merely unfit but of questionable sanity.

The Mad Hatter

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

It actually sickens me their hypocrisy. They leave their childs health and ultimate death up to the whim of some non existant deity, but when it comes to actually attoning for their negligence they now choose to rely on the powers of man to help them over their God. How utterly deplorable.

Let's hope the prosecuting lawyer notices.

MrPudding

pH wrote: »

This I found particularly chilling:
Wisconsin law, he noted, exempts a parent or guardian who treats a child with only prayer from being criminally charged with neglecting child welfare laws, but only “as long as a condition is not life threatening.” Kara’s parents, Judge Howard wrote, “were very well aware of her deteriorating medical condition.”

This got me.

Police Report wrote:

“Kara laid down and was unable to move her mouth,” the report said, “and merely made moaning noises and moved her eyes back and forth.”

Animals.

MrP

Galvasean

Could they not have used the 'Lord moves in mysterious ways' philosophy and send her to a doctor? Then when she was all better they could say 'Thank God for inventing doctors'.

aidan24326

Dave! wrote: »

If witholding the treatment will result in death, then the state may intervene; but if it 'merely' results in diminished health or sickness, then it's left to the parents.

Dunno if I have it 100% correct, but that's how I recall it anyway.

What a precarious situation to be in for the sake of respecting religion.

Exactly, it asumes that parents will always be able to tell the difference between symptoms that are potentially life-threatening and those that are not. Which is lunacy to begin with. Diabetic ketoacidosis is a more serious condition than most people would realise, so it's a good example of why the wording of this particular law is way wrong.

This goes back to the old problem of religion and religious beliefs in general being afforded FAR too much respect. In any other circumstances if you wilfuly denied your child medical attention despite them having a worsening and potentially serious ailment, you'd be thrown in jail. But invoke religious freedom and it seems you can get away with almost anything.

It's time to start calling a spade a spade here, these people are deluded morons at best and of questionbable sanity (not to mention fitness as parents) at worst. I accept that most religious believers would not condone what these people did, however all christians, muslims etc (who regularly pray) believe there is a god listening every time they mutter prayers in their head, and unfortunately some people just take that a step too far.

studiorat

It's opened up next door as a christian only thread.

I've come across this. The wife mutual friend who fancies herself as as a bit of a witchy-poo pagan type insisted on keeping her seriously ill son at home and trying to deal with his illness in a homeopathic way. Despite the child having lifelong health difficulties.

Gladly, when it was pointed out to her that there had been talk of social services being brought into the equation she realised the seriousness of her error. The disturbing thing really was she obviously had the child's welfare in mind and actually thought she was doing the right thing.

sink

Most Christians believe that god only help those who help themselves and when they get positive results they can then attribute it to god, ignoring their own actions. These parents must not have been aware of that particular piece of Christian sophistry.

DinoBot

sink wrote: »

Most Christians believe that god only help those who help themselves and when they get positive results they can then attribute it to god, ignoring their own actions. These parents must not have been aware of that particular piece of Christian sophistry.

Actually most christians believe that quote but its false:

Question: "God helps those who help themselves - is it in the Bible?"

Answer: "God helps those who help themselves" is probably the most often quoted phrase that is not found in the Bible. This is actually a quote from Ben Franklin and it appeared in Poor Richard's Almanac in 1757. In fact the Bible teaches the opposite

http://www.gotquestions.org/God-help-themselves.html

Dades

studiorat wrote: »

It's opened up next door as a christian only thread.

Well, we still welcome all here*, regardless of colour, orientation, post count, sword-ownership or even invisible friends.

* Posts may not be welcomed

jtsuited

those parents' behaviour is absolutely deplorable and really makes me question my enthusiasm for humankind.

shocking, just shocking.

Galvasean

studiorat wrote: »

It's opened up next door as a christian only thread.

I'm gonna start a whites only thread. See how far I get.

MatthewVII

studiorat wrote: »

It's opened up next door as a christian only thread.

I like when the OP on that thread says "We know God can definitely heal"

Guess the jury is still out on modern medicine

Flamed Diving

God fails to step in, once again.

What a surprise...

JimiTime

Dades wrote: »

Well, we still welcome all here*, regardless of colour, orientation, post count, sword-ownership or even invisible friends.

* Posts may not be welcomed

Galvasean wrote: »

I'm gonna start a whites only thread. See how far I get.

MatthewVII wrote: »

I like when the OP on that thread says "We know God can definitely heal"

Guess the jury is still out on modern medicine

Hmmm, I wonder why I want Christian only response there? But obviously you are welcome to have yer little back slappery in this thread.

sionnach wrote:

Because you don't want the obvious massive flaws in your arguments pointed out by people employing reason and sound logic?

Just clockin up another reason. As I'm sure most of you realise, I couldn't give a fiddlers fart about how clever you feel you are, or how stupid you think I/we are as Christians. It would be useful on the thread in question, to be able to discuss certain things without having to deal with people such as yourselves. If you think thats because I don't like to be challenged or whatever, so be it. As long as you adhere to the request, you can think I'm whatever you see fit.

sionnach

JimiTime wrote: »

Hmmm, I wonder why I want Christian only response there?

Because you don't want the obvious massive flaws in your arguments pointed out by people employing reason and sound logic?

Dades

I for one was only having a laugh, JimiTime.

I think you should have more Christian-only threads over there.

JimiTime

Dades wrote: »

I for one was only having a laugh, JimiTime.

I think you should have more Christian-only threads over there.

Just reading back on my post I see why you thougt I was directing that at you. I was pointing out other responses as to why all were not welcome on my thread. (A thread that seems to be generating little interest anyway) People just seemed to be coming here to have a pop.