Scumbags - Zero Tolerance?

Kernel

Apologies for yet another scumbag thread, but these are threads that I often read on AH, and I have been thinking about methods to prevent the level of scumbag/criminal problems nowadays.

Basically, I think we all agree that there is a problem in Ireland with scumbags acting in a socially irresponsible way. There are many reasons why a youngster becomes a scumbag, but I'm more interested in your opinions of how the government could prevent them impacting on your life.

The question, therefore is this: Do you think Ireland (or Dublin) should adapt a zero-tolerance policing method as used in New York (among other places)? It's an interesting dichotemy on boards, in that many threads complain about scumbags running amok, and many other threads compain about guards harassing them, etc. (eg. recent post where a guy had his Boost confiscated on Paddy's day). I don't think we can have one society without the other, and am personally in favour of zero-tolerance.

After all, I wouldn't mind being stopped and searched (since I've nothing to hide) once in a while, as it wouldn't affect my life. Being knifed in the face by some scumbag carrying a concealed weapon would be much more inconvenient! What do you think?

EDIT: Just FYI, zero tolerance establishes a link between public disorder and crime rates.. a broken windows hypothesis. Many argue that this link does not exist, others say that it does and it worked in New York etc. It basically means we would be prosecuted for minor transgressions of the law. Drunk/disorderly etc, in order to crackdown on higher level crimes happening. Of course, the judiciary would have to be behind this also.

FearDark

Ok, lots of generalisations here but here goes... Scumbag teens are usually the product of scumbag parents... how about we steralise all male children born in Ireland and the next generation has to apply for a licence to have kids? I mean u need a licence for a bloody dog but yet a scumbag waster can have a child and what chance does that child have... Yeah yeah we may end up with lots of STD's! I know theres sumthin logical in there... somewhere... maybe.

Overheal

wow, another person ready to shred up his rights and freedoms for a little extra peace of mind.

Kernel

FearDark wrote: »

Ok, lots of generalisations here but here goes... Scumbag teens are usually the product of scumbag parents... how about we steralise all male children born in Ireland and the next generation has to apply for a licence to have kids? I mean u need a licence for a bloody dog but yet a scumbag waster can have a child and what chance does that child have... Yeah yeah we may end up with lots of STD's! I know theres sumthin logical in there... somewhere... maybe.

I agree to some extent (sterilisation is a bit radical for me though! ). In the book 'Freakonomics' the author argues that the legalisation of abortion has more to do with decreasing crime rates in the US, since low income single mothers are more likely to get them, and prevent unwanted kids roaming the streets....

Kernel

Overheal wrote: »

wow, another person ready to shred up his rights and freedoms for a little extra peace of mind.

What rights and freedoms though? Should I have the rights and freedoms to get plastered drunk, fight randomers in the streets, break up public amenities, intimidate people etc... after all, law is a restriction on 'rights & freedoms' in order to ensure the rights and freedoms of society as a whole.

Overheal

the right to your privacy, for one.

and yes I enjoy my right to drink when i feel like it, without being treated discriminantly. Which is what youre suggesting.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

can't we all just get along and blame the jews?

monkeyfudge

A better standard of education is the answer.

If morals and ethics aren't going to be taught at home then they should be taught in the schools.

More amenities and facilities should be put in place to occupy the time of teenagers as well.

All this calling for extra police and policing powers is moronic if the roots of the social problems aren't going to be combated.

Kold

I'd rather you get knifed in the face than lose my human rights.

FearDark

Kold wrote: »

I'd rather you get knifed in the face than lose my human rights.

And who'd be knifing me in the face only some scumbag's demon seed lookin to feck my wallet for his next hit, shoulda steralised the parents i say.

Rb

I was in Egypt recently and their security presence is absolutely unreal. Every restaurant has a metal detector and security monitoring who goes in, same with every hotel or other establishment (or at least the decent ones). They've regular check-points all along various roads, along with armed security men sitting in little bays every X metres. On some roads, I even saw gun turrets mounted up on walls, where men were stationed all day and night, armed heavily.

It's an extreme example of a police force but it appears to work. I saw no fights, no drunks wandering the streets at all hours, no violent crime or petty crime either, which considering they're a very greedy nation was surprising.

I don't think I'd like such a presence in Dublin though, but I would like to see more of a security force on our streets, be it late at night when the pubs/clubs close or even during the day. Things seem to have picked up in the city centre, last time I was in I saw more Gardaí patrolling, but I still think it has to be increased.

I would absolutely love to see a zero tolerance stance being brought in on drink driving, along with more check points at night, particularly smack bang outside pubs where they can sting people before they have a chance to do harm.

I think that to stop the growth of more scum, something has to be done now. I'd 100% be in favour of a more "radical" approach, be it preventing the drains on society such as those living purely off welfare from having more kids and sufficient monitoring to make sure every one of their already existing children is in school and is getting the educational support they need to progress on to further education or at least do well with the one they have.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

if we had the muslim brotherhood in Dublin, then maybe that kind of police presence would be jutified...

maybe

Jen Pigs Fly

that's stupid, they say there's going to be a no-tolerance thingy, but I've seen no change at all, except maybe now guards are fining on the spot and not bringing people home, but that's only because they can't bring home everyone they find.

And I'm not saying I'm a scumbag, I'm not saying that my mates are, but it's people who think "Ohhh group of teenagers drinking ... must be upta no good, better call the police" are just a bunch of busy bodies who can't apperciate harmeless fun. Yea my mates (mostly lads) wear tracksuits and stuff, and yea we all like going out on the knack on the weekends, but because of that we've all been unrightly labelled.

Oh and this anti-tolerance thing is completly hipocrytical ... nothings changed and I doubt that nothing will be done really untill my own kids are old enough to be drinking themselves ...

Rb

monkeyfudge wrote: »

A better standard of education is the answer.

If morals and ethics aren't going to be taught at home then they should be taught in the schools.

More amenities and facilities should be put in place to occupy the time of teenagers as well.

100% agree.

Rb

xxxJennyxxx wrote: »

that's stupid, they say there's going to be a no-tolerance thingy, but I've seen no change at all, except maybe now guards are fining on the spot and not bringing people home, but that's only because they can't bring home everyone they find.

And I'm not saying I'm a scumbag, I'm not saying that my mates are, but it's people who think "Ohhh group of teenagers drinking ... must be upta no good, better call the police" are just a bunch of busy bodies who can't apperciate harmeless fun. Yea my mates (mostly lads) wear tracksuits and stuff, and yea we all like going out on the knack on the weekends, but because of that we've all been unrightly labelled.

Oh and this anti-tolerance thing is completly hipocrytical ... nothings changed and I doubt that nothing will be done really untill my own kids are old enough to be drinking themselves ...

No, reporting underage drinking in public places is the right thing to do, do you see why?

Jen Pigs Fly

rb_ie wrote: »

I was in Egypt recently and their security presence is absolutely unreal. Every restaurant has a metal detector and security monitoring who goes in, same with every hotel or other establishment (or at least the decent ones). They've regular check-points all along various roads, along with armed security men sitting in little bays every X metres. On some roads, I even saw gun turrets mounted up on walls, where men were stationed all day and night, armed heavily.

It's an extreme example of a police force but it appears to work. I saw no fights, no drunks wandering the streets at all hours, no violent crime or petty crime either, which considering they're a very greedy nation was surprising.

I don't think I'd like such a presence in Dublin though, but I would like to see more of a security force on our streets, be it late at night when the pubs/clubs close or even during the day. Things seem to have picked up in the city centre, last time I was in I saw more Gardaí patrolling, but I still think it has to be increased.

I would absolutely love to see a zero tolerance stance being brought in on drink driving, along with more check points at night, particularly smack bang outside pubs where they can sting people before they have a chance to do harm.

I think that to stop the growth of more scum, something has to be done now. I'd 100% be in favour of a more "radical" approach, be it preventing the drains on society such as those living purely off welfare from having more kids and sufficient monitoring to make sure every one of their already existing children is in school and is getting the educational support they need to progress on to further education or at least do well with the one they have.

That's only because a loads of tourists were the target of terrorist attacks, so in order to get tourists to go to their country, the egyptians have a lot of security. When i went there we had to go everywhere in convoy with the army, and even in our hotel and everything there were guards with all sorts of weapons.

That has nothing to do with "scumbags" or the likes, it's all just to make sure that no more tourists get blown to pieces in a terrorist attack

Kold

All we need is a higher police presence on the streets at night. As far as random bag searches go, yes I'd rather you got stabbed in the face. You'd be one in several thousand rather than 1 in 5 of us going down for having a nodge.

Kernel

xxxJennyxxx wrote: »

that's stupid, they say there's going to be a no-tolerance thingy, but I've seen no change at all, except maybe now guards are fining on the spot and not bringing people home, but that's only because they can't bring home everyone they find.

And I'm not saying I'm a scumbag, I'm not saying that my mates are, but it's people who think "Ohhh group of teenagers drinking ... must be upta no good, better call the police" are just a bunch of busy bodies who can't apperciate harmeless fun. Yea my mates (mostly lads) wear tracksuits and stuff, and yea we all like going out on the knack on the weekends, but because of that we've all been unrightly labelled.

Oh and this anti-tolerance thing is completly hipocrytical ... nothings changed and I doubt that nothing will be done really untill my own kids are old enough to be drinking themselves ...

You and your mates drinking in public would definitely be one of the things to get hit under this scheme. Although I'm sure you aren't scumbags, and I've done it myself, you must realise that many people will see a group of boisterous young people in tracksuits drinking/drunk in a public place and have their sense of security eroded. The broken-windows hypothesis is central to this feeling of decreased security, since it suggests that if there is a feeling of disorder in a place, it is more likely to attract crime and criminals.

I also agree with the education idea, however, I'm thinking more pragmatically that something needs to be done to draw a line now... social psychology and root cause/corrective action is important, but more difficult to achieve and it will take a long time to bear fruit.. in my opinion.. anyway, interesting so far people!

randylonghorn

monkeyfudge wrote: »

A better standard of education is the answer.

If morals and ethics aren't going to be taught at home then they should be taught in the schools.

Point understood, but do you honestly think that youngsters will pay a blind bit of attention to what teachers say on the subject if the back-up isn't there from home?

Experience elsewhere (and here to an extent) has shown that there is more hope of getting the message across in the informal education / youth work context, so I would totally agree with the rest of your post.

monkeyfudge wrote: »

More amenities and facilities should be put in place to occupy the time of teenagers as well.

All this calling for extra police and policing powers is moronic if the roots of the social problems aren't going to be combated.

Yep, you just get jails which are fuller, and politicians shouting about how that is "success" ... while the youngsters who are locked up get a thorough criminal education.

Rb

xxxJennyxxx wrote: »

That's only because a loads of tourists were the target of terrorist attacks, so in order to get tourists to go to their country, the egyptians have a lot of security. When i went there we had to go everywhere in convoy with the army, and even in our hotel and everything there were guards with all sorts of weapons.

That has nothing to do with "scumbags" or the likes, it's all just to make sure that no more tourists get blown to pieces in a terrorist attack

Oh I realise it's for the tourists, but the OTT security appears to do good things for domestic crime also.

I say appears as I don't know the official statistics.

CCCP^

No, I don't agree. I think Zero Tolerance is flawed. I think to adopt such measures here would be to totally **** things up, basically everyone would have to suffer invasion of their privacy because of a few maggots.

Jackovarian

what about sending them off to the army or something on offence?

like if they offend, make it possible for a judge to order them into the army for service.

cleans up the streets and cleans them up also.

tell ya what though, down this part of the country it isnt as bad as it used to be. i think the older generation scummers are so strung out they barely leave their houses anymore! the rst of them are in cars.
so the streets arent too bad anymore!

cherubaul

i am in favour of bringing in more public punishments for public order offences.
If caught brawling in the street the guilty party shall be paraded into the street on a sunday and flogged for the amusement of the public.
It is a punishment both fitting of the crime and also serves to show the public that justice has been served the same for petty criminals too.
humiliation and putting the fear of God into someone will always work better than a redundant prison system.
i believe that non custodial draconian measures that mean they will have to pay their pound o flesh for their fun would be off putting for delinquents.

randylonghorn

I see that the Time Machine forum is finally up and running, and we have a visitor from the Middle Ages.

Jen Pigs Fly

Problem is, is that in smaller towns some families are well known, and because of that, kids of said families can get away with anything because of their family, no one wants to mess with them, not even the guards.

It's not as simple as just arresting every young person they see, that's rediculous, the guarda station would just be filled with angry complaints and even if a court case is held, say the likes of naas, 99% of all young people are excused.

As long as our legal system is as it is, nothings going to change, and while it's like this young people are going to continue as they always have been, and anyway, the guards don't stop anything, no one fears the guards anymore, if you get brough home, your out again in a flash. I know I definitly won't be affected if the guards decided to do their jobs and do somtthing, because it won't happen!

cherubaul

yes yes yes....... as i said the methods are draconian but are the civilised alternatives working? in my opinion no.

Criminals both career and spontaneous commit crimes by encroaching and blatantly disregarding the basic human rights of others i assume we can agree on this point.

Imprisonment is a breach of a persons human rights as they are striped of freedom etc etc .
So too is corporal punishment but when one considers that a person who has already wounded society is merely compounding the fact by costing hard earned taxes languishing inside a jail. therefore corporal punishment for public order offences is a cheap alternative to this. doesnt take the person out of society and enforces that an offence against a fellow citizen is totally unacceptable and severe sanctions will be issued.

money lost in fines can be re earned
prison wastes potential
a damnably good thrashing will give someone a leson they wont soon forget.

Kernel

I think we should call them 'guttersnipes' instead of scumbags... who's with me?

Jackovarian

the real problem is that these guys/girls really don't think they are doing much wrong. Its all just a bit of fun to them.

and fair enough to an extent thats all it generally is, at somebody elses expense though.

its just not a good country at the moment. its in turmoil. between, badly planned housing schemes in the 70's coming back to haunt us, government jobs and commuter bands moving people from their home invironments around the country, which is causing major trouble in the local towns, where the local youngsters havent seen anybody as cool as jimmy from dublin and want to emulate his every move! (not pickin on dubs here! i love the dubs!)

also the fact that our stupid government rewards single parents by giving them houses means that there will be plenty feral children to grace us throughout the coming years.

god sake! a girl goes out, accidentally gets knocked up. she gets a council house. fair enough. same girl then continues getting pregnant. loads more money from the government. the more kids you have the more child support doubles! there are cases down here where girls are getng themselves pregnant just so they can get a house! i **** you not!



this country is like england in the 60's/70's and its going to take a long time before teh damage even begins to heal.


I'm ron burgundy?

Kernel

I agree jack... I see drink driving adverts, safe sex ads, even anti-litter ads.. but where is the anti-guttersnipe adverts? You know, the ads that show guttersnipes and paint them as the fools (with tracksuits tucked into socks) that they are?

Jackovarian

hehe. yeah.

throw in burberry jackets and giant gold (coffin handles) hoopy earrings!

maybe tic tacs should do an ad, like, show a clock n go TIC!
then show a guttersnipe and go TAC!-y-c*-nt



man! im getting that word round this town!
guttersnipes it is!
just rolls off the tongue like chewin tabaccy!

jayteecork

I think the rhetoric of our elected officals has got to start including the word "scumbag".
Our government buries its head in the sand!

As soon as the government admits the country has a scumbag problem the sooner something can be done about it.

Why doesn't Enda Kenny ask Bertie something like "And Bertie, why the **** is the country full of scumbags?"

Dont be at yourself

Zero tolerance all the way. You can argue about the causes of anti-social behaviour until the cows come home, you can build ammenities and have training courses and so on, but the fact of the matter is that scangers are a law unto themselves, and until they get put back in their box, they're going to keep breaking laws and harrassing people.

We need a cop on every street corner. It worked for New York.

DeVore

It did not work for New York, thats a fallacy that is not bourne out by the numbers.

There was, and has been, a huge drop in crime in the states. This has been experienced by all major cities, some of whom had ZT like NY but most of whom didn't.

The drop in crime rate coincided with the 18th anniversary of Row vs Wade which legalised abortion in the US.

The simple fact is that unwanted children are far far more likely to become criminals and by allowing mothers to decide if they are in a position to give these kids a stable home. By legalising abortion the US inadvertently sowed the seeds of their crime rate drop.

The same happened in reverse in Romania under Chauchescu.

DeV.

Handsome Bob

monkeyfudge wrote: »

A better standard of education is the answer.

If morals and ethics aren't going to be taught at home then they should be taught in the schools.

More amenities and facilities should be put in place to occupy the time of teenagers as well.

All this calling for extra police and policing powers is moronic if the roots of the social problems aren't going to be combated.

I am Social Policy Student and I would love to totally agree with you but I can't. The truth is that many kids are just out of control by the time they get to secondary school. Parents just don't know how to be parents anymore. I remember when I was in 6th year and we all noticed just how little respect the younger years were giving to the school. Total anarchy. I have seen kids the size of a 5 year old fearlessly giving a very imposing teacher a kick in the balls for **** sake!

I do not agree with zero tolerance. Cleaning are streets up needs to start from a very young age. Making sure that respect is taught at home and giving primary schools the freedom to discipline disrespectful children without parents coming up shouting 'abuse'! Cos what happens if parents are going to protect their delinquents? They are going to think they can do whatever they want and they will always be backed up by their parents.

Degsy

Kold wrote: »

All we need is a higher police presence on the streets at night. As far as random bag searches go, yes I'd rather you got stabbed in the face. You'd be one in several thousand rather than 1 in 5 of us going down for having a nodge.

Well then dont carry your nodge around with ya.Something that really pisses me off is people smoking hash in public or on buses..what satisfaction can you get toking outside a shopping centre?Wait till ya get home,keep a low profile and you wont get busted.

Handsome Bob

Degsy wrote: »

Well then dont carry your nodge around with ya.Something that really pisses me off is people smoking hash in public or on buses..what satisfaction can you get toking outside a shopping centre?Wait till ya get home,keep a low profile and you wont get busted.

Well it's the whole 'look at me I'm mad' attitude. It's about building cred with their peers. It's total idiocy of course but this is how 'mad things' work.

DeVore

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" -- Benjamin Franklin.

DeV.

Degsy

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Well it's the whole 'look at me I'm mad' attitude. It's about building cred with their peers. It's total idiocy of course but this is how 'mad things' work.

Likewise the clowns who talk about thier criminal exploits on crowded buses,they give names,dates,adresses,everything.They havnt the first clue about engaging in proper criminal behaviour ie you keep yer mouth shut.Have an undercover cop down the back of most buses and half these ****wits will be in jail in weeks.

Rob_l

cherubaul wrote: »

yes yes yes....... as i said the methods are draconian but are the civilised alternatives working? in my opinion no.

Sorry what? You recommend these dark ages practices but as far as I recall from my history studies I don't remember a Utopian peaceful country existing when last these laws where enacted, so what has changed has human nature changed has man evolved what makes these failed practices worth bringing back?

Dyr

This problem didnt spring up overnight, the govt, the gardai and society in general had no problems with allowing the environment scumbags require to thrive in to develop, so long as they stayed within that environment.


The gardai already have beacoup powers to sort this out (forget the trading liberty for security concerns, we made that trade in years ago because the gub'ment were scared of the 'RA)

it would however take a lot of will power from those in charge to tackle the problem and that aint gonna happen, they've other priorities.

skywalker

Kernel wrote: »

I think we should call them 'guttersnipes' instead of scumbags... who's with me?

I like it, you dont hear enough about guttersnipes anymore *shakes walking stick*

Rob_l

Zero tolerance doesn't work it just creates more criminals, if you are already branded something what is there to fear from being just that, we already know prison doesn't reform criminals, hundreds of years have proven this, so how will a society with more people branded as criminals fix the issue?

How much does it cost the state every year in policing and court fee's to punish people for minor crimes already, surely it would better to do away with minor crimes such as drug taking were the only victim is in fact the perpetrator of the crime.


"In a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime is getting caught. In a world of thieves, the only final sin is stupidity."
Hunter S. Thompson

Dyr

Rob_l wrote: »

we already know prison doesn't reform criminals,

We do?

Prison was never meant to reform criminals

Tazdedub

Rob_l wrote: »

Zero tolerance doesn't work it just creates more criminals, if you are already branded something what is there to fear from being just that, we already know prison doesn't reform criminals, hundreds of years have proven this, so how will a society with more people branded as criminals fix the issue?

How much does it cost the state every year in policing and court fee's to punish people for minor crimes already, surely it would better to do away with minor crimes such as drug taking were the only victim is in fact the perpetrator of the crime.

Rob_I so if Zero Tolerance doesnt work and neither does prison then what would work? Would sitting down with the guttersnipes and having a little chat work?

For me the best way to go is if the guttersnipe is guilty then give them a jail term but one of the requirements is for the guttersnipe to be part of a work gang that clean up all the p**s, sh**, glass and whatever else during their sentence.

Degsy

Cut the dole and get rid od "social" housing.If you're working its a struggle to find somewher to live,if you're not they give you an gaff for nothing.

Rob_l

Tazdedub wrote: »

Rob_I so if Zero Tolerance doesnt work and neither does prison then what would work? Would sitting down with the guttersnipes and having a little chat work?

For me the best way to go is if the guttersnipe is guilty then give them a jail term but one of the requirements is for the guttersnipe to be part of a work gang that clean up all the p**s, sh**, glass and whatever else during their sentence.

Prison and criminalization of people is the last resort but in a zero tolerance society its a first call.
For many crimes there is nothing to be done but prison, I am not advocating a society of good ideas and free criminals but further adding more people into that system whereby the only route left to them after being jailed is further crime, because who will hire a criminal, is surely not an answer to a problem but a problem in itself

Agamemnon

Rob_l wrote: »

I am not advocating a society of good ideas and free criminals but further adding more people into that system whereby the only route left to them after being jailed is further crime, because who will hire a criminal, is surely not an answer to a problem but a problem in itself

What are you advocating then? What should we do with criminals? The main reasons we lock criminals up are to punish them and to protect society from them. If they can be reformed while inside, that's great, but many of them are unwilling or unable to change.

Peteee

Kernel wrote: »

After all, I wouldn't mind being stopped and searched (since I've nothing to hide) once in a while, as it wouldn't affect my life. Being knifed in the face by some scumbag carrying a concealed weapon would be much more inconvenient! What do you think?

I think someone hasn't read 1984

Rob_l

Agamemnon wrote: »

What are you advocating then? What should we do with criminals? The main reasons we lock criminals up are to punish them and to protect society from them. If they can be reformed while inside, that's great, but many of them are unwilling or unable to change.

This is fine unfortunately there is no better system at the minute but to lock up criminals or perhaps taking certain arab countries attitudes and removing limbs but neither method works neither stops crime.

We know sending people to prison does not stop them committing crimes in fact it may increase the seriousness of the crimes they commit upon release.

So now to zero tolerance.
How does increasing the number of people we will criminalise over trivial matters, who are perhaps best dealt with outside the judicial system improve anything, surely this will only increase the amount of serious life criminals.

Charlie

Guardian Angels FTW.

Get some of these brothers over.

Seriously though, I think such a scheme, if properly led and organised, could help.

Most guttersnipes are cowards and would be doing half the $hit they do in the presence of an organization such as the Guardian Angels.

HammerHeadGym

I think there should be some sort of 'why you shouldn't act like a knacker' type education in schools. If I was in power there'd be a dozen or so cartoons on how to behave like a human being, the south park lads would write them and they'd be mandatory viewing every morning for the school kids.

You can't change a grown up's mind, but kids heads are like butter.