IÉ mixing up Dart carrages (railway aesthetics)

Run_to_da_hills · 26-03-2008 2:45pm #1

They are at it again, remember back in the 70ies and 80ies when one would look at a suburban train and notice a cocktail of several different shapes and makes of carriages on one train?. I have now recently noticed this on the Dart. I.E. the first two EMUs consist of the mark 1 Dart while the rest of the train is made up of the later Mark 2's or Mark 3's. This looks ugly! Can they not do things right? I will post pictures of this soon.

loyatemu · 26-03-2008 2:55pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I will post pictures of this soon.

i think we get the idea.

a lot of the original carriages are away being refurbished - i'd imagine once they're all back they'll be assembled into matching sets.

Nostradamus · 26-03-2008 3:05pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I have now recently noticed this on the Dart. I.E. the first two EMUs consist of the mark 1 Dart while the rest of the train is made up of the later Mark 2's or Mark 3's.

And about time too. It's a commuter train and not a flagship inter-city service. The branding is fine too as they are all DARTs anyways.

Victor · 26-03-2008 3:08pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

This looks ugly! Can they not do things right?

While having all the soldiers all lined up in a row looking the same is nice, it isn't a critical function.

Do these trains get people to where they need to be safely and with a reasonable level of confidence? If so, they are doing 90-95% of their job.

I don't know, but it is possible that some driving cabs are more useful than others and these are the ones being put at the ends. I understand at least one DART design is overly tempremental in its controls among other things and if this can be got around by not making those DMUs driving cars, then so be it.

Run_to_da_hills · 26-03-2008 3:11pm

Nostradamus wrote: »

And about time too. It's a commuter train and not a flagship inter-city service. The branding is fine too as they are all DARTs anyways.

You wouldn't see this happen with the London underground

Victor · 26-03-2008 3:20pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Are all Dart cabs identical? ie controlls etc?

The driver's console is relatively simple. I imagine there is some customisation, but they would be largely the same. One manufacturer might use a different button size to another.

Where you will find diffences is in how that button talks to the compute and how the computer works out what to do and tells the train. There are standards to make these thing interoperable, the code for "stop" or "go" will be the same no matter what manufacturer, but there will be dfferences.

paulm17781 · 26-03-2008 4:10pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

You wouldn't see this happen with the London underground

Different tunnels have different trains. They are different sizes that will only fit certain places.

Run_to_da_hills · 26-03-2008 4:29pm

paulm17781 wrote: »

Different tunnels have different trains. They are different sizes that will only fit certain places.

Nope. There are basically two different types of London underground trains. "deep Tube type" as used on the Victoria, Piccadilly, Central, Jubilee, Northern and the larger "cut and cover type" or "sub surface type" used on the Metropolitan, district, Hammersmith and circle lines. These trains are entirely different and cannot be mixed. However within each designated line you never see a cocktail of different carriage mixed up. all trains are uniform in model and shape. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:London_Underground_subsurface_and_tube_trains.jpg

green_onions · 26-03-2008 4:44pm

All DART carriages are designed so that they can be used with one another, much like the railcars. This provides greater operational flexibility rather than having a strict regime of matching set types. It also ensures that should some unforseen or indeed planned event happen then different sets can be split and coupled to others in order to try and maintain the level of service and capacity as well as is possible.

In relation to set you saw, would you prefer it was just a packed 4-car DART that you might not be able to get on or that it has the extra 2 cars to provide slightly higher capacity???

Run_to_da_hills · 26-03-2008 4:47pm

green_onions wrote: »

All DART carriages are designed so that they can be used with one another, much like the railcars.

Except for those EMU railcars ordered in from Japan that embarrassingly couldn't fit through the Greystones tunnels

Nostradamus · 26-03-2008 7:44pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Except for those EMU railcars ordered in from Japan that embarrassingly couldn't fit through the Greystones tunnels

Irish Rail want to close the Greystones DART as the maintenance costs are a horrific burden considering the small passenger numbers. The Strategic Rail Review also recommended that the OHLE be removed as well and Greystones be served by a diesel railcar shuttle from Bray. This would also free up paths for more Gorey services.

Goes to show you what happens when you provide a service for political reasons. It always damages the overall aim of developing rail transport in this country. That's the real embarrassment.

Run_to_da_hills · 26-03-2008 7:57pm

Nostradamus wrote: »

Irish Rail want to close the Greystones DART as the maintenance costs are a horrific burden considering the small passenger numbers. The Strategic Rail Review also recommended that the OHLE be removed as well and Greystones be served by a diesel railcar shuttle from Bray. This would also free up paths for more Gorey services.

Goes to show you what happens when you provide a service for political reasons. It always damages the overall aim of developing rail transport in this country. That's the real embarrassment.

Then why cant they extend the Dart the ferw extra miles to Wicklow, its only up the road from Greystones, there must be hundreds commuting from Wicklow to Dublin every day.

PRND · 26-03-2008 8:36pm

I think that most of the London Underground lines operate in isolation, possibly with the exception of District, Circle and Metropolitan. As a result, taking the coaching stock from one line to another requires a massive operation.

Run_to_da_hills · 26-03-2008 8:56pm

PRND wrote: »

I think that most of the London Underground lines operate in isolation, possibly with the exception of District, Circle and Metropolitan. As a result, taking the coaching stock from one line to another requires a massive operation.

Each line has its own depot and they try to keep the entire fleet on one line uniform. I used to pass Neasdon depot on the Jubilee/Metropolitan regularly on the way out to Kingsbury. Most of the subterrranian stock on the circle/metropllitan and district line is dated from the 60ies and 70ies as with the stock on the Victoria line just as dated and is soon to be replaced. http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/london.

armada104 · 26-03-2008 9:12pm

Why is this thread being dignified with responses? So what if the EMUs don't match in shape and size. As long as they work together, who cares?

Run_to_da_hills · 26-03-2008 9:22pm

armada104 wrote: »

Why is this thread being dignified with responses? So what if the EMUs don't match in shape and size. As long as they work together, who cares?

We could eventually end up with something like this :eek::eek::eek:

Poxyshamrock · 26-03-2008 9:47pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

We could eventually end up with something like this :eek::eek::eek:

I think the country has bigger problems somehow.

armada104 · 26-03-2008 9:48pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

We could eventually end up with something like this :eek::eek::eek:

Are you for real?

Red Alert · 26-03-2008 10:00pm

I saw this done a lot in Vienna on their metro lines - every train had at least one disabled-accessible carriage without having to dump the entire step-entrance fleet.

Apparently the mainline Enterprise and Mark 4 coaching stock are meant to be similarly compatible... food for thought.

Run_to_da_hills · 26-03-2008 10:05pm

I saw one classic in Holland, unfortunately I didn’t have my camera, It was a single decker train with one double decker car right in the centre of it used for bicycle storage, looked so odd.

armada104 · 26-03-2008 10:07pm

Sorry, you still don't seem to be acknowledging how unimportant it is.

Run_to_da_hills · 26-03-2008 10:11pm

armada104 wrote: »

Sorry, you still don't seem to be acknowledging how unimportant it is.

This thread is about railway aesthetics

armada104 · 26-03-2008 10:18pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

This thread is about railway aesthetics

That's fair enough, and maybe I should have just let it go, but your original post implies that this is an issue that's important to the average passenger.

corktina · 26-03-2008 11:38pm

armada104 wrote: »

Why is this thread being dignified with responses? So what if the EMUs don't match in shape and size. As long as they work together, who cares?

I care...I actually prefer the idea of different generations of stock adding interest to the railway scene...

railway aesthetics? no, bland uniformity I think is what you seem to want OP....couple in a couple of Cravens and a Park Royal I say....and the Presidential Salloon for good measure...

Edward Ryan · 26-03-2008 11:46pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

They are at it again, remember back in the 70ies and 80ies when one would look at a suburban train and notice a cocktail of several different shapes and makes of carriages on one train?. I have now recently noticed this on the Dart. I.E. the first two EMUs consist of the mark 1 Dart while the rest of the train is made up of the later Mark 2's or Mark 3's. This looks ugly! Can they not do things right? I will post pictures of this soon.

Are you for real?? So what if they are different types of carrages. I rather have a mixed train than trying to cram into a packed 4 carrage train.:eek:

cast_iron · 26-03-2008 11:51pm

armada104 wrote: »

That's fair enough, and maybe I should have just let it go, but your original post implies that this is an issue that's important to the average passenger.

No, it doesn't.

loyatemu · 26-03-2008 11:54pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Except for those EMU railcars ordered in from Japan that embarrassingly couldn't fit through the Greystones tunnels

whoa, whoa - source please. there are 4 different types of Darts and I've seen them all in greystones.

Edward Ryan · 27-03-2008 12:01am

loyatemu wrote: »

whoa, whoa - source please. there are 4 different types of Darts and I've seen them all in greystones.

It was actually the Spanish built DARTs.

Run_to_da_hills · 27-03-2008 12:01am

corktina wrote: »

I care...I actually prefer the idea of different generations of stock adding interest to the railway scene...

railway aesthetics? no, bland uniformity I think is what you seem to want OP....couple in a couple of Cravens and a Park Royal I say....and the Presidential Salloon for good measure...

We had nicknames for these as kids going to school. The AEC/Park Royal DMUs were called the "bog carts" and had a gear box! Later in the mid 70ies Cie butchered them into "Blackouts" by removing the cabs, blacking out the windows, fitting them with facing rows of cheap plastic seats and then converted them into push pulls using a Diesel Electric C class locomotive at one end. http://www.eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Irish%20Rail%201970s/slides/tarastreet.html
http://www.eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Irish%20Rail%201970s/slides/fairview2.html

Captain Chaos · 27-03-2008 12:23am

loyatemu wrote: »

whoa, whoa - source please. there are 4 different types of Darts and I've seen them all in greystones.

Currently 6, will be 5 in a few months.

LHB 8100/8300 class. Built in 1983 (Germany) 2 car sets (40 sets bought 1 lost in fire)
GEC Alstom 8200/8400 class. Built in 1999 (Spain) 2 car sets (5 sets)
Mitsu/Toku Car 8500 class. Built 2001 (Japan) 4 car sets (4 sets)
Mitsu/Toku Car 8510 class. Built 2002 (Japan) 4 car sets (3 sets)
Mitsu/Toku Car 8520 class. Built 2004 (Japan) 4 car sets (10 sets)

LHB 8100/8300 class refurbished by Siemens started in 2006 will be finished this year.

Run_to_da_hills · 27-03-2008 1:15am

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Currently 6, will be 5 in a few months.

LHB 8100/8300 class. Built in 1983 (Germany) 2 car sets (40 sets bought 1 lost in fire)
GEC Alstom 8200/8400 class. Built in 1999 (Spain) 2 car sets (5 sets)
Mitsu/Toku Car 8500 class. Built 2001 (Japan) 4 car sets (4 sets)
Mitsu/Toku Car 8510 class. Built 2002 (Japan) 4 car sets (3 sets)
Mitsu/Toku Car 8520 class. Built 2004 (Japan) 4 car sets (10 sets)

LHB 8100/8300 class refurbished by Siemens started in 2006 will be finished this year.

6 Different types of darts :eek:

IÉ mixing up Dart carrages (railway aesthetics)

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