IÉ mixing up Dart carrages (railway aesthetics)

Run_to_da_hills

They are at it again, remember back in the 70ies and 80ies when one would look at a suburban train and notice a cocktail of several different shapes and makes of carriages on one train?. I have now recently noticed this on the Dart. I.E. the first two EMUs consist of the mark 1 Dart while the rest of the train is made up of the later Mark 2's or Mark 3's. This looks ugly! Can they not do things right? I will post pictures of this soon.

loyatemu

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I will post pictures of this soon.

i think we get the idea.

a lot of the original carriages are away being refurbished - i'd imagine once they're all back they'll be assembled into matching sets.

Nostradamus

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I have now recently noticed this on the Dart. I.E. the first two EMUs consist of the mark 1 Dart while the rest of the train is made up of the later Mark 2's or Mark 3's.

And about time too. It's a commuter train and not a flagship inter-city service. The branding is fine too as they are all DARTs anyways.

Victor

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

This looks ugly! Can they not do things right?

While having all the soldiers all lined up in a row looking the same is nice, it isn't a critical function.

Do these trains get people to where they need to be safely and with a reasonable level of confidence? If so, they are doing 90-95% of their job.

I don't know, but it is possible that some driving cabs are more useful than others and these are the ones being put at the ends. I understand at least one DART design is overly tempremental in its controls among other things and if this can be got around by not making those DMUs driving cars, then so be it.

Run_to_da_hills

Nostradamus wrote: »

And about time too. It's a commuter train and not a flagship inter-city service. The branding is fine too as they are all DARTs anyways.

You wouldn't see this happen with the London underground

Victor

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Are all Dart cabs identical? ie controlls etc?

The driver's console is relatively simple. I imagine there is some customisation, but they would be largely the same. One manufacturer might use a different button size to another.

Where you will find diffences is in how that button talks to the compute and how the computer works out what to do and tells the train. There are standards to make these thing interoperable, the code for "stop" or "go" will be the same no matter what manufacturer, but there will be dfferences.

paulm17781

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

You wouldn't see this happen with the London underground

Different tunnels have different trains. They are different sizes that will only fit certain places.

Run_to_da_hills

paulm17781 wrote: »

Different tunnels have different trains. They are different sizes that will only fit certain places.

Nope. There are basically two different types of London underground trains. "deep Tube type" as used on the Victoria, Piccadilly, Central, Jubilee, Northern and the larger "cut and cover type" or "sub surface type" used on the Metropolitan, district, Hammersmith and circle lines. These trains are entirely different and cannot be mixed. However within each designated line you never see a cocktail of different carriage mixed up. all trains are uniform in model and shape. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:London_Underground_subsurface_and_tube_trains.jpg

green_onions

All DART carriages are designed so that they can be used with one another, much like the railcars. This provides greater operational flexibility rather than having a strict regime of matching set types. It also ensures that should some unforseen or indeed planned event happen then different sets can be split and coupled to others in order to try and maintain the level of service and capacity as well as is possible.

In relation to set you saw, would you prefer it was just a packed 4-car DART that you might not be able to get on or that it has the extra 2 cars to provide slightly higher capacity???

Run_to_da_hills

green_onions wrote: »

All DART carriages are designed so that they can be used with one another, much like the railcars.

Except for those EMU railcars ordered in from Japan that embarrassingly couldn't fit through the Greystones tunnels

Nostradamus

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Except for those EMU railcars ordered in from Japan that embarrassingly couldn't fit through the Greystones tunnels

Irish Rail want to close the Greystones DART as the maintenance costs are a horrific burden considering the small passenger numbers. The Strategic Rail Review also recommended that the OHLE be removed as well and Greystones be served by a diesel railcar shuttle from Bray. This would also free up paths for more Gorey services.

Goes to show you what happens when you provide a service for political reasons. It always damages the overall aim of developing rail transport in this country. That's the real embarrassment.

Run_to_da_hills

Nostradamus wrote: »

Irish Rail want to close the Greystones DART as the maintenance costs are a horrific burden considering the small passenger numbers. The Strategic Rail Review also recommended that the OHLE be removed as well and Greystones be served by a diesel railcar shuttle from Bray. This would also free up paths for more Gorey services.

Goes to show you what happens when you provide a service for political reasons. It always damages the overall aim of developing rail transport in this country. That's the real embarrassment.

Then why cant they extend the Dart the ferw extra miles to Wicklow, its only up the road from Greystones, there must be hundreds commuting from Wicklow to Dublin every day.

PRND

I think that most of the London Underground lines operate in isolation, possibly with the exception of District, Circle and Metropolitan. As a result, taking the coaching stock from one line to another requires a massive operation.

Run_to_da_hills

PRND wrote: »

I think that most of the London Underground lines operate in isolation, possibly with the exception of District, Circle and Metropolitan. As a result, taking the coaching stock from one line to another requires a massive operation.

Each line has its own depot and they try to keep the entire fleet on one line uniform. I used to pass Neasdon depot on the Jubilee/Metropolitan regularly on the way out to Kingsbury. Most of the subterrranian stock on the circle/metropllitan and district line is dated from the 60ies and 70ies as with the stock on the Victoria line just as dated and is soon to be replaced. http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/london.

armada104

Why is this thread being dignified with responses? So what if the EMUs don't match in shape and size. As long as they work together, who cares?

Run_to_da_hills

armada104 wrote: »

Why is this thread being dignified with responses? So what if the EMUs don't match in shape and size. As long as they work together, who cares?

We could eventually end up with something like this :eek::eek::eek:

Poxyshamrock

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

We could eventually end up with something like this :eek::eek::eek:

I think the country has bigger problems somehow.

armada104

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

We could eventually end up with something like this :eek::eek::eek:

Are you for real?

Red Alert

I saw this done a lot in Vienna on their metro lines - every train had at least one disabled-accessible carriage without having to dump the entire step-entrance fleet.

Apparently the mainline Enterprise and Mark 4 coaching stock are meant to be similarly compatible... food for thought.

Run_to_da_hills

I saw one classic in Holland, unfortunately I didn’t have my camera, It was a single decker train with one double decker car right in the centre of it used for bicycle storage, looked so odd.

armada104

Sorry, you still don't seem to be acknowledging how unimportant it is.

Run_to_da_hills

armada104 wrote: »

Sorry, you still don't seem to be acknowledging how unimportant it is.

This thread is about railway aesthetics

armada104

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

This thread is about railway aesthetics

That's fair enough, and maybe I should have just let it go, but your original post implies that this is an issue that's important to the average passenger.

corktina

armada104 wrote: »

Why is this thread being dignified with responses? So what if the EMUs don't match in shape and size. As long as they work together, who cares?

I care...I actually prefer the idea of different generations of stock adding interest to the railway scene...

railway aesthetics? no, bland uniformity I think is what you seem to want OP....couple in a couple of Cravens and a Park Royal I say....and the Presidential Salloon for good measure...

Edward Ryan

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

They are at it again, remember back in the 70ies and 80ies when one would look at a suburban train and notice a cocktail of several different shapes and makes of carriages on one train?. I have now recently noticed this on the Dart. I.E. the first two EMUs consist of the mark 1 Dart while the rest of the train is made up of the later Mark 2's or Mark 3's. This looks ugly! Can they not do things right? I will post pictures of this soon.

Are you for real?? So what if they are different types of carrages. I rather have a mixed train than trying to cram into a packed 4 carrage train.:eek:

cast_iron

armada104 wrote: »

That's fair enough, and maybe I should have just let it go, but your original post implies that this is an issue that's important to the average passenger.

No, it doesn't.

loyatemu

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Except for those EMU railcars ordered in from Japan that embarrassingly couldn't fit through the Greystones tunnels

whoa, whoa - source please. there are 4 different types of Darts and I've seen them all in greystones.

Edward Ryan

loyatemu wrote: »

whoa, whoa - source please. there are 4 different types of Darts and I've seen them all in greystones.

It was actually the Spanish built DARTs.

Run_to_da_hills

corktina wrote: »

I care...I actually prefer the idea of different generations of stock adding interest to the railway scene...

railway aesthetics? no, bland uniformity I think is what you seem to want OP....couple in a couple of Cravens and a Park Royal I say....and the Presidential Salloon for good measure...

We had nicknames for these as kids going to school. The AEC/Park Royal DMUs were called the "bog carts" and had a gear box! Later in the mid 70ies Cie butchered them into "Blackouts" by removing the cabs, blacking out the windows, fitting them with facing rows of cheap plastic seats and then converted them into push pulls using a Diesel Electric C class locomotive at one end. http://www.eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Irish%20Rail%201970s/slides/tarastreet.html
http://www.eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Irish%20Rail%201970s/slides/fairview2.html

Captain Chaos

loyatemu wrote: »

whoa, whoa - source please. there are 4 different types of Darts and I've seen them all in greystones.

Currently 6, will be 5 in a few months.

LHB 8100/8300 class. Built in 1983 (Germany) 2 car sets (40 sets bought 1 lost in fire)
GEC Alstom 8200/8400 class. Built in 1999 (Spain) 2 car sets (5 sets)
Mitsu/Toku Car 8500 class. Built 2001 (Japan) 4 car sets (4 sets)
Mitsu/Toku Car 8510 class. Built 2002 (Japan) 4 car sets (3 sets)
Mitsu/Toku Car 8520 class. Built 2004 (Japan) 4 car sets (10 sets)

LHB 8100/8300 class refurbished by Siemens started in 2006 will be finished this year.

Run_to_da_hills

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Currently 6, will be 5 in a few months.

LHB 8100/8300 class. Built in 1983 (Germany) 2 car sets (40 sets bought 1 lost in fire)
GEC Alstom 8200/8400 class. Built in 1999 (Spain) 2 car sets (5 sets)
Mitsu/Toku Car 8500 class. Built 2001 (Japan) 4 car sets (4 sets)
Mitsu/Toku Car 8510 class. Built 2002 (Japan) 4 car sets (3 sets)
Mitsu/Toku Car 8520 class. Built 2004 (Japan) 4 car sets (10 sets)

LHB 8100/8300 class refurbished by Siemens started in 2006 will be finished this year.

6 Different types of darts :eek:

weehamster

Is it me or does this thread stink of 'Trainspotting'.
This should be moved to some hobbies section (if there is one)

dazberry

My desk in work overlooks the railway bridge at Butt Bridge. I've just seen the aforementioned mixed train 4(new) and 2(old). If I was a train spotter - I'd get no work done :eek:

D.

paulm17781

Captain Chaos wrote: »

LHB 8100/8300 class refurbished by Siemens started in 2006 will be finished this year.

Did it not start in 2004 and was due to be completed in 2006 yet is still no where near done?

Run_to_da_hills

dazberry wrote: »

My desk in work overlooks the railway bridge at Butt Bridge. I've just seen the aforementioned mixed train 4(new) and 2(old). If I was a train spotter - I'd get no work done :eek: D.

Who will be the first person to post a picture of this rogue train!!!!!

corktina

not me..im not a stinking trianspotter....









(yes i am really)

lord lucan

corktina wrote: »

I care...I actually prefer the idea of different generations of stock adding interest to the railway scene...

railway aesthetics? no, bland uniformity I think is what you seem to want OP....couple in a couple of Cravens and a Park Royal I say....and the Presidential Salloon for good measure...

cravens,park royals,brings a tear to my eye:(

even mk 2's seem luxurious compared to the current rolling stock,22k's excepted.

Run_to_da_hills

Edward Ryan wrote: »

It was actually the Spanish built DARTs.

Just reading ALL of the spanish built 8200s ie 5 two car sets are currently out of action and are either lying up in Fairview or being overhauled at Inchicore because of poor design and unreliability. They are also not compatible with any of the japanese 8500s, 8510's or 8520's and cannot be coupled up with the 8100's Someone in CIE must have had their ass kicked !!! http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Irish%20Railcars%20&%20DARTs/8200%20Class/slides/Failed%20_Dart%20set%20at%20Lansdowne%20Rd.html

dazberry

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Who will be the first person to post a picture of this rogue train!!!!!

When I sat there first, I started (subconsciously) counting the number of carriages on each train as they'd pass. I mistakenly let it be known - and a couple of days later someone shouted out asking me how many carriages were on the train just past - and when I replied 6 - the whole place creased themselves laughing. If I'm seen taking photos - I'd never live it down!

I seldom find myself on a DART but a while back I found myself on another 4 and 4 mix. Made it my business to get on the old half - hate those newer carriages myself.

D.

Run_to_da_hills

dazberry wrote: »

I seldom find myself on a DART but a while back I found myself on another 4 and 4 mix. Made it my business to get on the old half - hate those newer carriages myself.D.

Your probably right, I would also choose to board on the older carraiges, they are more reliable BTW I have never seen a 4 and 4 mix yet!

Captain Chaos

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Just reading ALL of the spanish built 8200s ie 5 two car sets are currently out of action and are either lying up in Fairview or being overhauled at Inchicore because of poor design and unreliability. They are also not compatible with any of the japanese 8500s, 8510's or 8520's and cannot be coupled up with the 8100's Someone in CIE must have had their ass kicked !!! http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Irish%20Railcars%20&%20DARTs/8200%20Class/slides/Failed%20_Dart%20set%20at%20Lansdowne%20Rd.html

Actually the 8200s can work with any of the 8500-8520s and have done so for years. They can't work with the 8100s but they can be towed by them.

But as far as CIE are concerned they should push the 8200s into the Tolka and claim the insurance for another 85xx set.

Run_to_da_hills

Captain Chaos wrote: »

They can't work with the 8100s but they can be towed by them..

When they break down

Captain Chaos wrote: »

But as far as CIE are concerned they should push the 8200s into the Tolka and claim the insurance for another 85xx set.

Can they not convert them to push pulls with a loco and use them down the country or have another "fire" at the Firview depot

On the same subject how come these Spanish EMU train sets have such a desasterous reputation with CIE when they are manufactured by GEC Alstom, ie the same crowd that have been building the trainsets for years for the TGV, SNCF, RENFE and recently the London underground.

DWCommuter

I blame Fianna Fail for all this. Honestly. I dare a FF member to ask me why. (But you must produce your card first.:D)

loyatemu

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Just reading ALL of the spanish built 8200s ie 5 two car sets are currently out of action and are either lying up in Fairview or being overhauled at Inchicore because of poor design and unreliability. They are also not compatible with any of the japanese 8500s, 8510's or 8520's and cannot be coupled up with the 8100's Someone in CIE must have had their ass kicked !!! http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Irish%20Railcars%20&%20DARTs/8200%20Class/slides/Failed%20_Dart%20set%20at%20Lansdowne%20Rd.html

they're back - I've seen them running in an 8-car set recently.

whatever about reliability, they're more comfortable than the first lot of jap darts - at least you don't have to travel with your knee in the person opposite's groin.

Run_to_da_hills

loyatemu wrote: »

they're back - I've seen them running in an 8-car set recently. .

Maybe they should run a ten car set and keep all their eggs in one basket in case of another breakdown

loyatemu wrote: »

whatever about reliability, they're more comfortable than the first lot of jap darts - at least you don't have to travel with your knee in the person opposite's groin.

If they had any sense they could reserve these cars for "1st class" and charge more

KC61

Does it really matter what DART type operates which train or whether they're mixed or not? They are all compatible with each other.

The customer just wants to get his or her train to the destination.

Run_to_da_hills

KC61 wrote: »

Does it really matter what DART type operates which train or whether they're mixed or not? They are all compatible with each other.

Except for the 8200s that won't mix with the 8100's

Victor

All say "aye" for a Monorail and Crayons sub-forum?

Run_to_da_hills

Victor wrote: »

All say "aye" for a Monorail and Crayons sub-forum?

"Thomas" the tank that runs on Diesel

PRND

I've just seen the offending train at around 4.25 at Lansdowne. 2 old carriages, 4 newer ones! Can't say much more other than the rear train was number 8122.

corktina

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

"Thomas" the tank that runs on Diesel

i imagine a replica steam driven Lartigue loco would be mega euros to build...that looks the part..is it real?

ps Thomas is Blue with a large No1 on the tanks and only has one boiler....(one more than this one then you say...)