Plus 1 joule concern

Crave

Ok this has been bugging me for awhile and nothing seems to be done about it as far as i know. I know every AEG gets chronoed for 328 fps etc. but does anyone ever check the weight of the bb's being used? Surely someone could easily use different bb's.Making them 328 fps but a higher energy. How is this issue being dealth with. I don't want to be playing with Hot AEGs.

o1s1n

Crave wrote: »

Ok this has been bugging me for awhile and nothing seems to be done about it as far as i know. I know every AEG gets chronoed for 328 fps etc. but does anyone ever check the weight of the bb's being used? Surely someone could easily use different bb's.Making them 328 fps but a higher energy. How is this issue being dealth with. I don't want to be playing with Hot AEGs.

'Every AEG gets chronoed'?

Where? What are you talking about? A specific skirmish site? A bit more info is needed.

kdouglas

Given that we all play a game based on honour, I hope that everyone would be honest enough to use 0.2g bbs in their aeg when chrono'ing or at least inform the chrono operator that they are using heavier weight bbs so they can compensate for it.

However, it is a fairly simple matter for the person that's carrying out the chrono'ing to put a couple of 0.2g bbs into a mag for chrono'ing.

Lemming

kdouglas wrote: »

Given that we all play a game based on honour, I hope that everyone would be honest enough to use 0.2g bbs in their aeg when chrono'ing or at least inform the chrono operator that they are using heavier weight bbs so they can compensate for it.

However, it is a fairly simple matter for the person that's carrying out the chrono'ing to put a couple of 0.2g bbs into a mag for chrono'ing.

I declare that I'm using .25g BBs. Only takes a second to change the chronograph for a heavier weight (and vice versa) so there's no reason not to say it.

o1s1n

Crave wrote: »

Surely someone could easily use different bb's.Making them 328 fps but a higher energy. How is this issue being dealth with. I don't want to be playing with Hot AEGs.

After reading that again, it seems like you think that if someone puts heavier bbs in an AEG chronoing at 328fps with a .2g that it's suddenly going to go over 1 joule?

That is certainly not the case. The fps of the rifle will lower if the weight of the bb is higher. It'll still be 1 joule.

Shiva

o1s1n wrote: »

After reading that again, it seems like you think that if someone puts heavier bbs in an AEG chronoing at 328fps with a .2g that it's suddenly going to go over 1 joule?

No, I think he means that someone could easily load up with .28g BBs, get chronoed at 320 fps and go off and have fun with their overpowered gun.
That occurred to me before too, truth to tell.

ED E

o1s1n wrote: »

After reading that again, it seems like you think that if someone puts heavier bbs in an AEG chronoing at 328fps with a .2g that it's suddenly going to go over 1 joule?

That is certainly not the case. The fps of the rifle will lower if the weight of the bb is higher. It'll still be 1 joule.

No, I think he means cronoing using .2 for the calc but actually shooting .25s ect.

Masada

nah he means that the chrono might sat its doing 328 and look legal but the BBs might be the heavier ones meaning the gun would really fire at about 350 or what not with .2s.,

Lemming

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

No, I think he means cronoing using .2 for the calc but actually shooting .25s ect.

Errrr .... if you chrono at < 329fps with .2, loading up with .23/25/28/etc. != hot AEG. You'll end up firing circa 290fps

o1s1n

Shiva wrote: »

No, I think he means that someone could easily load up with .28g BBs, get chronoed at 320 fps and go off and have fun with their overpowered gun.
That occurred to me before too, truth to tell.

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

No, I think he means cronoing using .2 for the calc but actually shooting .25s ect.

Well then why can't they just set the chronographs to output in joules rather than FPS?

Lemming

vtec wrote: »

nah he means that the chrono might sat its doing 328 and look legal but the BBs might be the heavier ones meaning the gun would really fire at about 350 or what not with .2s.,

I guess the easiest way to get around that is to ask each player what weight BBs they're using before chrono. Pain in the arse being asked repeatedly, but if people are that worried that others may "cheat" then that's what needs done I guess.

That said, almost everyone uses .20g BBs, so you'd really need to be going out of your way to cheat. Most entry level folks will use .20g, and afaik most players with some level of experience use .20g as well. So you'd need to knowingly be at it (and that would imply yoiu're a right pr1ck for doing so too)

ED E

The HRTA chrono is set to display fps right. If you just stick the chart to the tripop then the fps is read, the bb weight asked, the chart read and verdict given. Job done.

Shiva

o1s1n wrote: »

Well then why can't they just set the chronographs to output in joules rather than FPS?

'Cos the chrono still has to be configured for the weight of the BBs. Lemming is right....player should be asked what weight they're using.

Crave

just wondering if it's a big concern for people?

Masada

not really., we an honset bunch, mostly.,

o1s1n

Crave wrote: »

just wondering if it's a big concern for people?

I didn't think people would be dishonest enough to do that. Maybe that's just me being overly nieve.

Crave

I mean say someone got some .25 bb's and forgot to mention it, it gets chronoged at 328fps, that would make it about 1.24J(ie. a firearm). I don't wanna get shot with one of those. I just think we need to be a bit more careful with testing etc. Just to set a high standard, not because we think it will happen but just in case it did, we would know about it.

Masada

that person would have to know that the gun was hot to begin with tough., and its up to them to be honest about it.,

MAD Ozzie

At CTG all AEG's are chronoed with a .20bb ( our .20bbs ) we dont take risks or any crap.
If your AEG is hot you will be given a straw to play with or sent home. That simple.
1 or 2 out of 10 are chronoed hot, mostly the cheep crap brands come in a bit over and are not alloud to be used on site. All AEG's that pass are marked with a white band and the marshals keep an eye on em, 1 marshal to every 15 players or per team. We run a tight ship in Cork.

romperstomper

out of curiousity how much discretion is given here? the garda allow 10% over the limit in speeding cases (ie you will not be cahrged with speeding for doing 51Km/h in a 50Km/h zone). just thinking that it sounds ridiculous to call an aeg a toy @ 327fps but @ 330 its a firearm. no doubt the holy joes and the rest of the holythanthou brigade revel in it though.

Masada

romperstomper wrote: »

out of curiousity how much discretion is given here? the garda allow 10% over the limit in speeding cases (ie you will not be cahrged with speeding for doing 51Km/h in a 50Km/h zone). just thinking that it sounds ridiculous to call an aeg a toy @ 327fps but @ 330 its a firearm. no doubt the holy joes and the rest of the holythanthou brigade revel in it though.

theres no leaway with the firearms low though, the reason they have it for speeding it because a cars speedo is never 100% accurate, it'll always be out by a small bit and especially if the car has aftermarket wheels fitted., so in theory they cant do ya if you were driving off your clock and were slightly over the limit.,

MAD Ozzie

romperstomper wrote: »

out of curiousity how much discretion is given here? the garda allow 10% over the limit in speeding cases (ie you will not be cahrged with speeding for doing 51Km/h in a 50Km/h zone). just thinking that it sounds ridiculous to call an aeg a toy @ 327fps but @ 330 its a firearm. no doubt the holy joes and the rest of the holythanthou brigade revel in it though.

Good question.
We work on an average over 8-10 shots but must stick to the law, so its 328fps.
Any one else care to explain this ? Maby where to tuff, but when the garda or our insurance calls over thay wont except anything over the legal limit will thay,? and who's in the poo then.

romperstomper

thats what i'm saying. there should be input from local gards or whoever inpects airsoft sights to say what they would consider unacceptable. others here preach about 'mandaotry sentencing' and other crap get pouted out. In reality we buy guns from manufactors and if they are SLIGHTLY outside tolerances they will be 1.001J. I would like to hear how that is treated. IMO its certainly within reason. Now do the gards (or whoever) have discretion or not on this issue? In my own experience they have dicretion over everything else. and what about the sites themselves? where do they stand? 330fps and their insurance is invalid? that doesn't sound correct to me

o1s1n

MAD Ozzie wrote: »

Good question.
We work on an average over 8-10 shots but must stick to the law, so its 328fps.
Any one else care to explain this ? Maby where to tuff, but when the garda or our insurance calls over thay wont except anything over the legal limit will thay,? and who's in the poo then.

You cant really work it on averages. If some of the shots are going over 1 joule then it is a firearm. Because there is no airsoft specific legislation, anything even a fraction over is considered such.

Ive heard of a few people having items destroyed by customs and they were "just a little over". If just a little over = destruction, then you can guess theres more or less no leeway.

You cant bring a car and speeding comparison into it as cars are governed by very specific laws. All airsoft has is 1 joule.

romperstomper

if thats the case then what you are saying do not apply. if 1.001J IS a firearm then anyone importing one intot he country would be subject to mandatory sentencing laws in this country for illegal possession of a firearm. if, on the other hand, there is no legislation to deal with it (or discretion) then they may simply destroy/seize on site (as you imply they are doing).

you can't have it both ways though. either its above 1J and thus considered a firearm and the person in possession should be arrested and charged with illegal possession of a firearm OR its still not a firearm even @ 1.1J just a banned item and will be confiscated and destroyed.

on a related note, what about stuff like flash-bangs. are they considered firearms? or pyro-technics or what?

o1s1n

romperstomper wrote: »

thats what i'm saying. there should be input from local gards or whoever inpects airsoft sights to say what they would consider unacceptable.

They would consider anything over 1 joule unacceptable. Or at least the law states they should. Gardaí are just people in the end. Firearms supers have differing opinions all over the country. Some places you'd be waiting a hell of a lot longer for a cert than some others. Some won't even grant permission for certain firearms.

You're better off going by what the law says. Which is 1 joule. Just make sure absolutely none of your shots go over that. It's not that hard to do. You don't have to be bang on 328fps to get a hit.

romperstomper wrote:

others here preach about 'mandaotry sentencing' and other crap get pouted out.

Crap? It's the law. I doubt a judge is going to send you to prison for 10 years for having something that shoots slightly over 1 joule, but it is currently written into the law as a possibility. Sentencing aside, your gear would still be destroyed.

romperstomper wrote:

In reality we buy guns from manufactors and if they are SLIGHTLY outside tolerances they will be 1.001J. I would like to hear how that is treated.

You'll have to remember, airsoft is still really new here. We'd all like to hear how that is treated. Problem is, maybe a situation hasn't arisen yet where it has been needed to? As far as I can see, the Gardaí will destroy anything over 1 joule, anything under is fine. That's it. There is no further clarification.

romperstomper wrote:

In my own experience they have dicretion over everything else.

That's because 'everything else' has been around a lot longer than airsoft. Again, it's new. There is nothing in law stating how they should deal with it (Unless of course someone is brandishing it as a weapon, but that's a different thing completely)

romperstomper wrote:

and what about the sites themselves? where do they stand? 330fps and their insurance is invalid? that doesn't sound correct to me

I have one word for you...paintball

MAD Ozzie

o1s1n wrote: »

You cant really work it on averages. If some of the shots are going over 1 joule then it is a firearm. Because there is no airsoft specific legislation, anything even a fraction over is considered such.

Ive heard of a few people having items destroyed by customs and they were "just a little over". If just a little over = destruction, then you can guess theres more or less no leeway.

You cant bring a car and speeding comparison into it as cars are governed by very specific laws. All airsoft has is 1 joule.

This is true, but some shots may be say, 328fps and the next is 325 and 327 and 324 & 326 so give or take over 10 shots and thats how we do it, if its 329 & 331 & 330 & 332 and so on, its over and hot. Not every reading is the same all the time, even with the best chrono. Balisticks is done in the same way with real firearms as powder count is never the same in every round. So with no other guide lines other than 1 jule, thats how we do it.
If its over in the first 1-2 shots its hot. and hop up must be off.
Is there a better way??

Leidenfrost

romperstomper wrote: »

on a related note, what about stuff like flash-bangs. are they considered firearms? or pyro-technics or what?

To the best of my knowledge they are considered as, like the hazmat standard, 1.3 (or 1.4)C (or D) low order explosives.

They are not legal (without proper documentation e.g a Blasting license etc.) whatsoever in the Republic of Ireland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAZMAT_Class_1_Explosives

I think it is slightly ironic that people may fret about fellow members of a skirmish operating ''firearms'' slightly over the 1 joule limit (bear in mind a 2 J + impact is necessary to reliably break the skin) but don't really consider the much greater hazard and possible loss of life that can occur if a ''flash bang'' (a confined Flash powder or in some cases black powder device) is thrown around the place...not to mention possession of such devices probably warrant a larger sentence/fine for the operator than possession of a firearm.

o1s1n

MAD Ozzie wrote: »

This is true, but some shots may be say, 328fps and the next is 325 and 327 and 324 & 326 so give or take over 10 shots and thats how we do it, if its 329 & 331 & 330 & 332 and so on, its over and hot.
Not every reading is the same all the time, even with the best chrono. Balisticks is done in the same way with real firearms as powder count is never the same in every round. So with no other guide lines other than 1 jule, thats how we do it.
If its over in the first 1-2 shots its hot. and hop up must be off.
Is there a better way??

Thats what I was hoping you did.

When you said average, I thought you might have meant finding the middle number out of a mix that were just under and just over.

As long as none of the shots are going over at all then it should be fine.

I think what some people need to realize is that 1 joule wasnt written into law for the benefit of airsoft.

It was just something that worked to our favour when it was decided that a minimum number must be set in law for something to be considered a firearm.

Therefore that means there isnt going to be any leeway with that number until theres some specific law written to cover airsoft products.

MAD Ozzie

Spot on.
The max average limit is 328fps and thats it, not over at ALL.
If an AEG fires at 329 & 327 & 329 its still over and will not be used on my site at all.
I will not take a risk for 20euro, or even for a mate, or put the players at risk in any way.

All for the greater good of the sport.

o1s1n

romperstomper wrote: »

if thats the case then what you are saying do not apply. if 1.001J IS a firearm then anyone importing one intot he country would be subject to mandatory sentencing laws in this country for illegal possession of a firearm. if, on the other hand, there is no legislation to deal with it (or discretion) then they may simply destroy/seize on site (as you imply they are doing).

you can't have it both ways though. either its above 1J and thus considered a firearm and the person in possession should be arrested and charged with illegal possession of a firearm OR its still not a firearm even @ 1.1J just a banned item and will be confiscated and destroyed.

on a related note, what about stuff like flash-bangs. are they considered firearms? or pyro-technics or what?

The law states:

"Firearm means"---

An air gun (including an air rifle or an air pistol) with a muzzle energy greater than one joule or any other weapon incorporating a barrel from which any projectile can be discharged with such a muzzle energy.

This to me states simply that an airsoft rifle with a capacity of more than 1 joule is legally considered a firearm. As 1.001j is greater than 1.000j, it is considered such. Nobody has contested this in court yet, so we dont know if there is a possibility of leeway. I doubt anyone wants to end up in court over possible firearms charges though, so it would be in everyones best interest to play that one on the safe side.

If tomorrow you try to import an air rifle (As in a 9j lead pellet projectile), it will more than likely be seized by customs and either destroyed or they will wait until you can supply them with a FAC. Will you be sent to prison for 10 years? I wouldnt imagine so. But its still possible under the current law in the same way its possible with any +1j airsoft.

As for flashbangs, all I know is any type of firework is restricted in Ireland and illegal to own without a specific license.

Leidenfrost wrote: »

I think it is slightly ironic that people may fret about fellow members of a skirmish operating ''firearms'' slightly over the 1 joule limit (bear in mind a 2 J + impact is necessary to reliably break the skin) but don't really consider the much greater hazard and possible loss of life that can occur if a ''flash bang'' (a confined Flash powder or in some cases black powder device) is thrown around the place...not to mention possession of such devices probably warrant a larger sentence/fine for the operator than possession of a firearm.

No sites in the Republic use flashbangs due to their legal status here. And I am pretty sure most airsofters would be against someone using something like that on them.