Bottles & Glasses; time to go...?

Wertz

Just throwing this up as it's something that's played on my mind for years, and it's currently being discussed on liveline.
Is it time to start replacing drinking glasses with suitable plastic or other non-glass alternatives? Time to do away with glass bottles which are sold in huge volumes both in pubs/clubs and moreso offies and supermarkets?

My reasons for this are two-fold, primarily the curtailing of glassing or bottling incidents in bar/club fights or in the streets.
Think about it, you have a bunch of people in a confined space, with lowered inhibitions and amongst a few a tendency for argument and perhaps violence...all these people are surrounded by a virtual arsenal of bottles and glasses, that are usually no further than an arm's length away at any time, and it only takes a few people to decide to lift one and/or lash out at someone to leave people scarred for life, blinded or perhaps even dead. I know it's usually only a scumbag thing to do, but with enough drink taken and someone with their back against the wall, it's a weapon that's there to be utilised, even if it is "out of character" for the person who decides to brandish it.

My second reason isn't as serious or pressing but it's a problem nonetheless....it's the amount of broken glass in our streets and on our roads.
After the weekend just passed, I had to go out into our street twice and sweep up smashed bottles, to avoid myself or the neighbours ending up with punctures and to avoid any of the kids in the street cutting themselves or worse. For the most part these bottles come from the local offie or s'market, who usually have offers on 24 packs of bottled beers...the local street drinkers think nothing of using the empties as missiles and throw them wherever they like. Add to that the problem of overfull bottlebanks and people leaving their empties lying beside tha damn banks, which also end up getting broken by kids.
We also have a lot of minerals being sold in glass bottles as well, something that there's absolutely no need for, when we have cans and plastic.

So do we really really need to be using glass in the way we do?
Before any of the stalwart pint drinkers or micro-brewery snobs roll in with claims that beer only tastes right out of glass, I tend to agree...but there are viable alternatives and there really is no need for cheap beer and spirits to use glass for sales to home users.
The amount of harm done by glass every year to people, either through violence or accident, to either people or property should surely outweigh the arguments for holding on to the notion of using glass for every drinks container. If not an outright ban of sorts, then it's surely time to start cutting the number of uneccessary glass containers in use...
Thoughts?

Poll added

togster

A Big Fat No

WindSock

I certainly think they should do away with bottled drink mixers in pubs.

Wertz

togster wrote: »

A Big Fat No

Kindly elaborate. Or are you just intrinsically opposed to change?

WindSock wrote:

I certainly think they should do away with bottled drink mixers in pubs.

But do you mean because of the price of them, that they should be "splash" systems or delivered from a larger bottle?
Schweppes lite Tonic bottles are hardly the weapon of choice when it kicks off. Also most mixer bottles in pubs are recycled on a deposit system by the suppliers...this isn't how it is with Bud or Coors bottles and the like...

BaZmO*

Glasses don't glass people, scumbags do!

Dave!

I don't think they're particularly necessary, and would have no trouble with them being done away with in the vast majority of situations.

togster

Wertz wrote: »

Kindly elaborate. Or are you just intrinsically opposed to change?

Plastic is bad for mother earth.

baztard

Theres are strong enough and transparent enough plastic alternatives to glass around at the moment. I know there are unbreakable plastic pint glasses on sale in super markets. Its a great idea but in reality it won't work, because I'd imagine glass is way cheaper to produce and recycle than a good plastic alternative. Money talks.

Stercus Accidit

Most plastic bottles etc. seep chemicals that simulate hormones into their contents over time, resulting in some weird hormonal symptoms relating to fertility etc.

I think its the presence of oestrogen that is simulated in the body.

Edit: Nobody call me up on this, its a really really vague memory of this being discussed before

MOH

Motosam wrote: »

Most plastic bottles etc. seep chemicals that simulate hormones into their contents over time, resulting in some weird hormonal symptoms relating to fertility etc.

I think its the presence of oestrogen that is simulated in the body.

Edit: Nobody call me up on this, its a really really vague memory of this being discussed before

Don't know about that, but fill an empty plastic bottle with water, then drink it after a few days, tastes foul.

I've only ever seen one incident of someone getting glassed in all the years I've been drinking in Dublin. It was pretty ugly and freaked me out at the time, but I don't think getting rid of glass is the answer. Getting rid of the scumbags who do it is.

Wertz

Motosam wrote: »

Most plastic bottles etc. seep chemicals that simulate hormones into their contents over time, resulting in some weird hormonal symptoms relating to fertility etc.

I think its the presence of oestrogen that is simulated in the body.

Edit: Nobody call me up on this, its a really really vague memory of this being discussed before

No you're right, certain chemicals have been thought to be amongst the causes for lower sperm count in men since the 50's, and more widely in nature to cause a drop in fertility in the males of many species of fish and birds.

That however is hardly a reason not to switch to plastics, especially given our current level of technology in plastics and surfacants. I'm sure that plastic could be made "safer" in that regard. Besides, the genie is already out of the bottle (pun unintended) in so far as oestrogenic compounds in our environment.
Someone mentioned costs...far more relevant. Glass is cheap.
Nevermind the fact that it is hugely energy hungry to produce and there is no financial or other incentive to recycle, other than the environmentalists call to arms.
Back when I worked bars many years ago, the majority of bottles were crated and went back to suppliers for re-use. Lemonade bottles at home were returned for 10p.
These days nearly all beer bottles are disposable...

But with incentives to reuse and recycle plastic/metal alternatives, the many inapt uses of glass could be removed.
Take for instance the Netherlands and other mainland EU countries; you buy your minerals over there in plastic bottles, that you pay a good deposit on...you then return it. The plastic itself is toughened, unbreakable and sturdy.

Wossack

BaZmO* wrote: »

Glasses don't glass people, scumbags do!

togster wrote: »

Plastic is bad for mother earth.

I'd be of these opinions :pac:

daisy123

togster wrote: »

Plastic is bad for mother earth.

Here here, even if the plastic could be washed etc., do you really think lounge staff etc would be bothered if they could just bin them? Glass is recyclable at least...and think of the litter that plastic cups would cause? People (scummers excluded) tend to be careful with glass, putting it on tables, etc. With plastic, sure they could just feck it anywhere!! Bad idea!

Collie D

I'm voting no...glass is better for drinking from and better for the environment.

I've been unlucky enough to be on the receiving end of an auld pint glass in the face but I don't think the actions of a few mindless animals should **** everything up for the rest of us.

Also, cars can be involved in accidents too....should we ban those?

pickarooney

No, but they should definitely bring back in deposits on bottles like they do in proper countries. Make the deposit high enough and there'll be little to no wastage.

phantom_lord

don't be silly, it's very rare that any problmes are caused by glass objects, and anyway, it'd ruin my drinking experience if i had to use plastic things.

stovelid

BaZmO* wrote: »

Glasses don't glass people, scumbags do!

Unless door staff master time travel, they may not be able to guess who is liable to glass someone.

As for plastic glasses, it could be a good idea because a lot of glassing incidents are probably not premeditated, and arise from people grabbing whatever is to hand.

On the minus side: the waste, and having all that beer and plastic underfoot, like some gigs...

BaZmO*

stovelid wrote: »

Unless door staff master time travel, they may not be able to guess who is liable to glass someone.

I've seen people throw barstools in a pub when a fight has broken out, should barstools be banned also?

Collie D

BaZmO* wrote: »

I've seen people throw barstools in a pub when a fight has broken out, should barstools be banned also?

Damn, that was a better example than my cars one.

+1

Kold

Glass coke bottles are bullsh*t.

Sleepy

I know Whelans tend to use plastic "glasses" when they've gigs on. They're not *that* bad but they do seem smaller than a "real" pint glass.

For reasons of cost, the environment and the drinking experience I'd vote no but I'd be all in favour of a deposit system being re-introduced, brewers being forced to use crated bottles for all pub bevarages sold by the bottle and heavily punitive sentences for scumbags that use bottles/glasses in this manner.

DetectivFoxtrot

the nub of the issue here is drunk and disorderly. Our sentences/sentencing is shi*t when it comes to this. Our justice system encourages this behaviour and has done for a long time. Scummers know they can more or less get away scot free. Removing glass is not the answer as it will only treat one of the symptoms of drunk and disorderly. Prevention via harsher sentencing is the only way forward. Another poster made the point that doormen can't guess who's going to be a scummer and they're right, but if a scummer knew that lengthy jail time was a given with drunk/disorderly assault they might think twice about their actions..

Also it would really be unfair to f*ck up everybody else's drinking experience because of the scummers - it means they win.. imo if glass were gone the scummer would jut reach for the next best thing - a stool perhaps - does that mean we'll have to eliminate those and replace with inflatable chairs??!! where would the madness end? Would our bars and clubs be akin to padded cells? I'd rather stay at home, ta very much!

also, it's common knowledge that beverages from plastic tastes rubbish, and the environmental thing would be disasterous, we're only starting to get the litter issue sorted out in this country....

FruitLover

I say bring back tankards.

Wertz

For those advocating glass as more environmentally friendly, the manafacture of glass releases 900kg of CO2 per tonne of glass produced. The figure is not much lower for recycling by melting. Washing for re-use consumes a lot of water and manafacturers tend to use thinner bottles to cut transport and production costs; this results in a bottle that can't be washed (it breaks easier).
The plastics I'm refering to aren't that piss poor hardened polyetyhlene plastic that breaks if you glance in it's general direction and that can't hold liquid because when you grip it, it deforms....I'm talking more of the polypropylene type, a rigid tough material. You may have seen them at electric picnic and such. Bottles can be made from this stuff too.
I fail to see how plastic is less environmentally sound, in the long run. Okay it comes from oil and has to be processed, but it's easy to recycle, be that through washing or through a melting process that is substantially less energy needed.

That's netiher here nor there though; it shouldn't be about the environment, I think the safety of people should come first in that regard.
People using barstools or cars(!) as an analogy; ever been to a club/pub with no stools? Ever been to one where they're bolted to the ground? Even when they aren't, if they become weapon of choice in a fight, they are a lot less dangerous than a broken glass/bottle and easier to take away from someone.
Why would you ban either of those items? Cars serve a purpose that can't be filled by say, pushbikes. Banning barstools? Come on...


[edit] For those at the back, I'm talking about these:

http://www.barmans.co.uk/products/product.asp?ID=2131&title=Reusable+Plastic+Glasses+%28GS%29

NOT these:

http://www.barmans.co.uk/products/product.asp?ID=1650&title=Disposable+Tumblers



...and for the record nobody including me is saying "OMG ban glass now!11!", I'm just saying that there's far too much of it in use when safer alternatives are available.
I too enjoy my drink in glass, but I'd be willing to compromise if it helped to save people from the misfortune of disfigurement or serious injury/death.
Interesting that the poster who was glassed is on the side of keeping glass in use...I certainly don't think I'd be that forgiving. I was bottled years back by some rnadom bitch on the street....she only managed to knock me off balance...I don't like to think what it'd have been like if she was a bloke or had a thinner bottle...

Collie D

Wertz wrote: »

Interesting that the poster who was glassed is on the side of keeping glass in use...I certainly don't think I'd be that forgiving.

I'm not but let's just say Karma had it's way with that particular piece of ****.

stovelid

BaZmO* wrote: »

I've seen people throw barstools in a pub when a fight has broken out, should barstools be banned also?

Good point, but people are more likely to blindly hit someone with a glass to hand, then run off and find a free bar stool to smack someone with.

They're also not likely to be outside the pub with a barstool in their pocket.

Nobody said no glasses = no injury. You can blind someone with a key, finger, or cocktail stick if you really wanted to.

FruitLover wrote: »

I say bring back tankards.

Begbie FTW!

Wertz

"Nay c*nt's leavin' dis pub, etc." :pac:


BTW if glass is so environmentally sound, how come we get all our milk in paper and plastic containers?

DetectivFoxtrot

Wertz wrote: »

For those advocating glass as more environmentally friendly, the manafacture of glass releases 900kg of CO2 per tonne of glass produced. The figure is not much lower for recycling by melting. Washing for re-use consumes a lot of water and manafacturers tend to use thinner bottles to cut transport and production costs; this results in a bottle that can't be washed (it breaks easier).
The plastics I'm refering to aren't that piss poor hardened polyetyhlene plastic that breaks if you glance in it's general direction and that can't hold liquid because when you grip it, it deforms....I'm talking more of the polypropylene type, a rigid tough material. You may have seen them at electric picnic and such. Bottles can be made from this stuff too.
I fail to see how plastic is less environmentally sound, in the long run. Okay it comes from oil and has to be processed, but it's easy to recycle, be that through washing or through a melting process that is substantially less energy needed.

That's netiher here nor there though; it shouldn't be about the environment, I think the safety of people should come first in that regard.
People using barstools or cars(!) as an analogy; ever been to a club/pub with no stools? Ever been to one where they're bolted to the ground? Even when they aren't, if they become weapon of choice in a fight, they are a lot less dangerous than a broken glass/bottle and easier to take away from someone.
Why would you ban either of those items? Cars serve a purpose that can't be filled by say, pushbikes. Banning barstools? Come on...

...and for the record nobody including me is saying "OMG ban glass now!11!", I'm just saying that there's far too much of it in use when safer alternatives are available.
I too enjoy my drink in glass, but I'd be willing to compromise if it helped to save people from the misfortune of disfigurement or serious injury/death.
Interesting that the poster who was glassed is on the side of keeping glass in use...I certainly don't think I'd be that forgiving. I was bottled years back by some rnadom bitch on the street....she only managed to knock me off balance...I don't like to think what it'd have been like if she was a bloke or had a thinner bottle...

My issue with the plastic is regarding litter not production costs/effects. If polypropylene is washable/reusable then I would consider that a good option.

Re eliminating bar stools, I was saying that this would be madness, the question I was posing and point I was makin was 'where would it all end if we started removing/banning things?'

This is a cultural issue - this sort of **** doesn't go on in most parts of Europe, bar England, it simply just does not happen. People who use bottles as weapons need to accept responsibility for doing so - it's not everyone else's problem to fix or suffer from alternatvie solutions!

Wertz

DetectivFoxtrot wrote: »

My issue with the plastic is regarding litter not production costs/effects. If polypropylene is washable/reusable then I would consider that a good option.

Re eliminating bar stools, I was saying that this would be madness, the question I was posing and point I was makin was 'where would it all end if we started removing/banning things?'

This is a cultural issue - this sort of **** doesn't go on in most parts of Europe, bar England, it simply just does not happen. People who use bottles as weapons need to accept responsibility for doing so - it's not everyone else's problem to fix or suffer from alternatvie solutions!

Sorry didn't catch your other post first time round.
I agree that it's cultural and is somewhat exclusive to the UK and Ireland.
It's fine and well to say that the people who utilise glass as a weapon whilst drunk need to take responsibility, but the fact is that even when caught for such an act, if prosecuted, sentencing is all over the place and drink taken is often a mitigating factor(!) to some of these judges...so theconsequences of their actions never occur to them.
For one thing, the very fact of scarring for life or nearly killing someone should be deterrent enough...but be it through bad attitude or through alcohol-induced diminished reasoning, that deterrent is no longer there...and if/when people are charged with the crime, they could get 2 months or 5 yrs (that's assuming they're even caught).
My point to all that is that it's as much about removing as many instruments as you can from the hands of those who may use them to hurt another, as it is about having a consequence for using them as a weapon...we do so with knives to some extent and firearms to a much greater extent....but yet see fit to furninsh a load of drunks with a lethal instrument every night of the weekend. Hell we even see fit to sell minerals to kids in glass bottles...and round where I live, they make a hobby if smashing the empties on the footpaths, parks and roads.
I see your point about why should the actions of the few impinge on the actions of the many but that's how it is for all regulation. I don't like the idea of the nanny state, but as a 'elf'n'safteh issue it ranks well above a lot of other things we have imposed on us.
See my edited post for examples of what I mean by plastic glasses...the ones you're thinking of are a curse TBH...

DetectivFoxtrot

Wertz wrote: »

Sorry didn't catch your other post first time round.
I agree that it's cultural and is somewhat exclusive to the UK and Ireland.
It's fine and well to say that the people who utilise glass as a weapon whilst drunk need to take responsibility, but the fact is that even when caught for such an act, if prosecuted, sentencing is all over the place and drink taken is often a mitigating factor(!) to some of these judges...so theconsequences of their actions never occur to them.
For one thing, the very fact of scarring for life or nearly killing someone should be deterrent enough...but be it through bad attitude or through alcohol-induced diminished reasoning, that deterrent is no longer there...and if/when people are charged with the crime, they could get 2 months or 5 yrs (that's assuming they're even caught).
My point to all that is that it's as much about removing as many instruments as you can from the hands of those who may use them to hurt another, as it is about having a consequence for using them as a weapon...we do so with knives to some extent and firearms to a much greater extent....but yet see fit to furninsh a load of drunks with a lethal instrument every night of the weekend. Hell we even see fit to sell minerals to kids in glass bottles...and round where I live, they make a hobby if smashing the empties on the footpaths, parks and roads.
I see your point about why should the actions of the few impinge on the actions of the many but that's how it is for all regulation. I don't like the idea of the nanny state, but as a 'elf'n'safteh issue it ranks well above a lot of other things we have imposed on us.
See my edited post for examples of what I mean by plastic glasses...the ones you're thinking of are a curse TBH...

Yeh I see your point alright Wertz, I'm just irritated by our whole drinking culture at the moment and it seems to be getting worse (alcohol-related violence). I'm just back today from a short trip to Paris. I bought the Indo on the plane and read about riots in Finglas on Paddy's day, then I get into the taxi and he tells me a young taxi-driver was stabbed to death last night, that's fcuking madness!! At the risk of sounding over 60 - what is this country coming to?? Gone are the days when you got into a fisticuffs after hours and the most you got was a back eye - now scummers aren't happy unless they kill somone - where is all the hatred coming from? In Paris the drink was flowing freely, and everybody was drinking from glasses/glass bottles? Did I see any fights? - no, was anyone drunk and disorderly? - not a soul. Was there smashed glass on the pavements in the wee hours? - not a shard....

I just don't get Ireland anymore and I'm only a young'n!

Wertz

Wouldn't worry about it, I've been sounding like I'm in my 60's the last decade or more. I've borne the full brunt of what alcohol induced violence can dole out (nearly killed about 6 yrs back; not with glass/bottle though) and I also come from a family where alcoholism has been very prevalent and has had an impact.
I get Ireland....it took me to live in the 'States with some Irish guys for a few months to see it; yanks were calling us all alcos and though I didn't see it at the time, it's only when I looked back later that I see the way we as a nation are for boozing. I don't drink that much anymore, and when I do, I try to keep it to the minimum and I find I enjoy it so much more that way than I did when I was off out spending a fortune and waking up with no recollection or a bunch of regrets.
The whole glassing thing is only one aspect of drink related violence and it's one that's only came into it's own in the last 5-10 years, alongside the rise in stabbings and random attacks....why doesn't it happen on the continent? I can't answer that. The French start drinking earlier than us, but yet they manage to not turn into lunatics....I think it has to be down to some other factor(s)...genetic perhaps?

DetectivFoxtrot

/Wertz
My dad is an alchoholic and there's a lot of it in my family too but it has never led to violence or bottling people - they're two different things in my book...It does put you off drinking tho, I deffo agree with that. My dad has a liver illness so drinking for him is detrimental to his health - yet he can't stop - sad really.....

I drink regularly but in moderation - maybe a small glass of wine or beer every second evening. I love that one drink just to unwind after a tough day - I'm having a Heineken now for example, I'll only have the one though.. I rarely get drunk though and hate binge drinking - it makes people lose control and all sense of reason. I have a friend who won't touch a drop during the week but she goes mental at the weekend - it ruins her Sunday, she forgets half the things she did and she looks in rag order for days after, yet if you asked her she'd tell you that I'm the alchholic! lol. I don't go out with her anymore because I hate how the night ends up,s omeone puking or crying! - I firmly believe regular small amounts are much better that bingeing - like in Europe where it is more of a social/family/dinner event and not necessarily to get sloshed) - again it's a culture thing that I fear will never change in this country....

Dammit I'm moving to France!;)

Wertz

No no, I never said alcoholism is a factor in violence or glassing, I only mentioned alcoholism as another downside to alcohol itself.
Most people can go out and not drink on an alcoholic scale...but some of those same people can go off out and stick a glass in someone's face after a skinful. Then there are plenty of alcoholics who can go off out get drunk (for the third time that day) and not bother a soul (well, in a physically violent manner).
I'm sure there are some violent alcos out there...but the problem is bigger than that.
You'll never change the culture....I'm reminded of that one Family Guy clip where Peter and Chris go to the Irish museum and they look at the clip of ancient Ireland where everything's futuristic like the Jetsons, until one bright spark invents whiskey and the whole place decends into one big melée.
Youtube doesn't have the clip

cornbb

BaZmO* wrote: »

Glasses don't glass people, scumbags do!

Bang on the money.

It sucks that there's broken glass all over the place the morning after a night like Paddy's night but I'd hate to drink beer out of a plastic bottle/glass or buy wine out of anything but a glass bottle.

DetectivFoxtrot

Wertz wrote: »

No no, I never said alcoholism is a factor in violence or glassing, I only mentioned alcoholism as another downside to alcohol itself.
Most people can go out and not drink on an alcoholic scale...but some of those same people can go off out and stick a glass in someone's face after a skinful. Then there are plenty of alcoholics who can go off out get drunk (for the third time that day) and not bother a soul (well, in a physically violent manner).
I'm sure there are some violent alcos out there...but the problem is bigger than that.
You'll never change the culture....I'm reminded of that one Family Guy clip where Peter and Chris go to the Irish museum and they look at the clip of ancient Ireland where everything's futuristic like the Jetsons, until one bright spark invents whiskey and the whole place decends into one big melée.
Youtube doesn't have the clip

lol - I know the clip! I have the 16 dvd boxset!;)

Wertz

cornbb wrote: »

Bang on the money.

It sucks that there's broken glass all over the place the morning after a night like Paddy's night but I'd hate to drink beer out of a plastic bottle/glass or buy wine out of anything but a glass bottle.

I think that even if I were in the position of what to ban, wine out of glass bottles would be saved. It's bloody awful from plastic or those boxes.
Beer on the other hand....I enjoy a beer as much from a can as I do from bottle or glass, and when I've drank it from plastic containers it's been grand too. I just fail to se the need for 24 packs of 330ml bottles to be sold for 20 quid when cans do the exact same thing, except without the resultant waste, mess and potential for use as a weapon.

DetectivFoxtrot wrote: »

lol - I know the clip! I have the 16 dvd boxset!;)

Good stuff. I hate when people don't get my references...or think worse of me for citing FG as referrrable material in a serious discussion...

BaZmO*

stovelid wrote: »

Good point, but people are more likely to blindly hit someone with a glass to hand, then run off and find a free bar stool to smack someone with.

I was actually attacked with a table and and couple of barstools in a club years ago, or at least that's what I was told afterwards, I didn't remember much about it tbh other than I was trying to stop a fight.

stovelid wrote: »

They're also not likely to be outside the pub with a barstool in their pocket.

Very true. I was hit outside a pub with a beer bottle, luckily enough it didn't smash but it did break my cheekbone in 2 places. And guess what? I was trying to break up a fight that time too. :rolleyes: As Homer says, "Never help anyone!"

stovelid

BaZmO* wrote: »

I was actually attacked with a table and and couple of barstools in a club years ago, or at least that's what I was told afterwards, I didn't remember much about it tbh other than I was trying to stop a fight.

Very true. I was hit outside a pub with a beer bottle, luckily enough it didn't smash but it did break my cheekbone in 2 places. And guess what? I was trying to break up a fight that time too. :rolleyes: As Homer says, "Never help anyone!"

Where do you drink? Just so I can avoid standing next to you.

Seriously though: that's rotten. At least the bottle didn't break.

BaZmO*

stovelid wrote: »

Where do you drink? Just so I can avoid standing next to you.

Well I'd actually probably be the safest person to stand next to as I've learned not to get involved when trouble starts!

slipss

I'd be for getting rid of the glass. I always had to laugh when i was younger and used to frequent a pretty rough pub that used to search peiople for weapons on the way in and then sit you down at a table then deliver to you pint glasses, glass bottles and B&H ashtrays that felt like they weighed over kilo. As far as saying its not the glasses fault its the scumbag wielding it, well obviously, but if a fight breaks out in a pub or a club between a bunch of p1ssed up people they tend to grab whatevers to hand, which tends to be a glass. As far as the enviromental concerns others seem to have about using plastic, well, plastic is recyclable and glass production i would imagine does its own share of damage to the environment.

Ponster

BaZmO* wrote: »

I've seen people throw barstools in a pub when a fight has broken out, should barstools be banned also?

Nope, just ban everyone and anyone from entering the bar in the first place.

Is this really the typical mood of people in Ireland today? I mean, I've seen loads of threads about the crime and such but replacing glass in bars due to too many people using them as weapons just seems unreal to me (who doesn't live in Ireland).