Alcohol Fuelled Crime

connundrum

This seems to be the catch phrase of the week. While I realise that it may be a term coined by the media, and that they have a tendancy to overhype everything, I am starting to believe that things are getting out of hand.

It also seems like a softly softly approach to try and remedy the situation is not working, and that it is in fact having very little effect at all.

So what is the solution? Is there a problem at all?

I personally feel that selling alcohol at service stations, centra and spar is not helping the situation. But that said, I like the fact that I (as a semi responsible adult) can run around to the local and grab a bottle of wine.

The poll indicates suggestions thrown out by govt representatives and media peeps. I personally don't think any one thing will work - and that it needs to be a collective effort inculding bits of all suggestions.

Dark_lord_ire

I would agree with you that things are getting out of hand. I don't think the media overhype it in fact i think its not reported on enough. If the public only knew what really went on every night of the week. I would love the figures on the percentage of arrests for public order and a break down in where the people are from.

People can and will state that when a horrible drink fuelled act is committed the person who done it is a victim of circumstance that they have been left down by the state. I know a number of people who grew up in deprived areas and turned out better than the rest of us. I think and its only my view that Its in the blood, criminal parents dont have the best gene pool to draw from. We need to take on the problems head on. Age for buying alcohol should be 21, hard fines for public order, repeat offenders getting long jail term. Oh and maybe if the person is on welfare as well as a fine a cut in their payments.

sorry if i'm ranting lol

Wertz

connundrum wrote: »

The poll indicates suggestions thrown out by govt representatives and media peeps. I personally don't think any one thing will work - and that it needs to be a collective effort inculding bits of all suggestions.

Might have been an idea to make it a multi option poll then, since I tend to agree with you about it needing elements of all those things and a bit more besides. You neglected to offer "More gardaí on the streets and/or added community policing" as an option. We already have the laws for the most part, just no means of effectively enforcing them sometimes.
IMO cheap alcohol isn't the real problem here...easy availability is sort of the problem but it's the laxness with which underagers can acquire large amounts of alcohol and seemingly get tanked up to the nines on it, without parents batting an eyelid, and then go on to run amok and organise themselves into a force which our police forces have trouble dealing with that's the real problem (WRT Finglas riots in particular).
But that's only anti social behaviour and while it is a nuisnace, and a danger in certain regards, I'm far more worried about drink fuled random acts of violence...

Schism

Increase the minimun age limit to 21. As it is some people who are 16-17 can pass for 18 easily, but 21 would be a stretch at that age.

Dave!

Earthworm Jim! wrote: »

Increase the minimun age limit to 21. As it is some people who are 16-17 can pass for 18 easily, but 21 would be a stretch at that age.

Doubt that would do much. I was drinking when I was about 14, and I nor any of my mates would not have passed for 18. We didn't have to; ya find a way to get it.

Steez

Could always just ban alcohol...

/runs

edit: my post count is now 187. That automatically makes me mad gangsta, as the kids say.

Rb

connundrum wrote: »

This seems to be the catch phrase of the week. While I realise that it may be a term coined by the media, and that they have a tendancy to overhype everything, I am starting to believe that things are getting out of hand.

It also seems like a softly softly approach to try and remedy the situation is not working, and that it is in fact having very little effect at all.

So what is the solution? Is there a problem at all?

I personally feel that selling alcohol at service stations, centra and spar is not helping the situation. But that said, I like the fact that I (as a semi responsible adult) can run around to the local and grab a bottle of wine.

The poll indicates suggestions thrown out by govt representatives and media peeps. I personally don't think any one thing will work - and that it needs to be a collective effort inculding bits of all suggestions.

Indeed, I think that shops should be allowed sell it. It's meant for those over 18 afterall.

The problem is that the laws aren't being enforced. I think at this stage we need much, much stricter laws and punishment for underage drinking. Pubs/clubs/off-licenses/shops/etc found to be selling drink to minors should be shut down for a week or two, fck the fines, shut 'em down and they might learn some sense.

"They had a fake I.D!" - Doesn't matter, those selling alcohol should be fully trained to spot a fake (the same as any good bouncer), and if someone comes in and uses one on them, fair enough, their fault, shut 'em down.

Selling drink cheap isn't the problem, it's good for adults who are píssed off at the pubs upping their prices every few months and is a tool to bring about change in the pub industry. More people buying cheap drink and staying home, less in the pub, the pub owners are forced to drop their prices eventually. Or at least I still hope that's the way it'll go.

I don't think adults should be punished for it (i.e upping the price of our booze), but I do think parents should. Clubs are open for those 18+, if a parent is letting their child go out to them then they should be punished. If their child is found drinking underage at a club, the child should be put under legal curfew and their parents fined a couple thousand (a long with the place being shut down for a week).

Regular police checks would be good too. More pressure put on bouncers to properly check I.D's and not let underagers in would be good too, perhaps enforcing a type of punishment should they be caught going it.

The drinking culture here is retarded, and the saddest thing about it is many are bringing their childhood binge drinking into adulthood. I was in Egypt last week, didn't see one drunk falling around the streets. Then again, there was fck all Irish people in the area so that could be something to do with it. People were taking it easy with drinks and having a good time, unlike here where adults (ffs) are knocking back drink after drink and then falling around and making an arse of themselves.

Similarly in NY in January, we were at a party with a free bar, there wasn't a queue at it all night and the place was jammed. When last orders came, the only people at the bar were Irish and English.

I think fixing the problem at a young age (i.e stopping children drinking) is the key to getting rid of this stupid culture of ours, and getting rid of this stupid "Irish Drunks" image our country has.

Regarding crime, of course it'd fall if kids couldn't access alcohol. Some will argue that it will just turn kids to doing drugs instead though, which I could care less if people want to say "It's easier to get drugs than drink these days", it's not. Besides, a few joints won't cause a kid to do the retarded things that drink does to them.

Also, it might bring down the amount of teenage pregnancies.

Schism

DaveMcG wrote: »

Doubt that would do much. I was drinking when I was about 14, and I nor any of my mates would not have passed for 18. We didn't have to; ya find a way to get it.

Thats true alright. There's no stopping those "other" ways of getting it.

Rb

Earthworm Jim! wrote: »

Thats true alright. There's no stopping those "other" ways of getting it.

Except by punishing them if they're caught.

Massive fines for all!

Schism

It depends on what age group we a re talking about here but I think a lot of underage drink could be stopped by parents as rb_ie pointed out.

I was caught drinking by the father when I was fifteen and such were the reprecussions that it didn't even enter my mind to go looking for more until he said it was ok.

Wertz

I heard a big "throwing their hands up to heaven" interview on the radio this morning about the riots in Finglas on the 17th...the repeated cry was "where were the parents?"...that's an easy one; they were either off down the pub, or round in someone's house (or their own) getting lamped, because that's how we do...little Johnny and Mary are left to their own devices from a fairly young age, see their parents coming home blind drunk, shouting fighting and worse...they then inevitably aspire to that and when they gather on the streets, teach each other all the best and worst aspects of those learned traits and go on to do basically whatver the f*ck they like, culminating in violence and thuggery.
As mentioned it's in our culture...and in more socially deprived areas, those elemnets of this culture are magnified and carry on from generation to generation, cumulatively getting worse.
The breakdown in efficient parenting and installation of discipline is as much to do with what ends up as drink fueled crime, as the drink itself.

WRT increasing drinking age, never going to happen. I don't think it would really do any good....but strict enforcment of the 18 age limit utilising mandatory ID cards and huge penalties/punishment for alcohol dealers, including individual staff or those buying for underagers might do something to curb it. I'd even go as far as to suggest that parents be held directly responsible if their child accesses alcohol in the home (which is where a lot of it comes from)...

We Are Leeds

Price the ****ers out of drinking.

Latchy

They have upped the price of beer wines and spirits in the budget here last week in an effort to cut under age drinking but as somebody said ,it's only punishing the sensible drinkers and it wont make much difference regardless the price .

all the stars

connundrum wrote: »

I personally feel that selling alcohol at service stations, centra and spar is not helping the situation.

well, its the whole way people carry on. Its treating alcohol like a nasty thing, instead of having respect for it. The age limit is not the whole issue at all... like france, drink far more than we do and start a lot earlier age drinking. They just have respect for their bodies & dont drink to get locked like us.

I think rising the price again is the stupidest thing ever, im fed up having to pay more & more for a few drinks so the tax man can spend my cash on whatever he pleases. Lets bear in mind - 14 year olds, should be controlled by their parents - who should be accountable for their kids acting a fool. Also, money dont seem to be much of an issue when i see school kids goin to 4 star restaurants at lunch-time... clearly, money is just passed about at home. Hold onto 3 days lunch money & you can easily afford a large bottle of whever takes your fancy.

Alcohol is much more readily available to more or less anybody in most of europe, yet we pay much more. Personally, people are not bothered to discipline their kids & set good examples. The amount of couples on paddys day both locked drunk with toddlers in tow was disturbing.

The whole thing needs re-evaluating....

User45701

Sorry - very busy today so encase noone posted this in the topic the solutution is easy.

Drinking licences.

Everyone who is over 18 can apply for one. when you do something wrong like assault/criminal damage ect you have your card taken away. And anyone in this country can at any time driving or not be required to take a test to see if they have consumed drink. Drinking when your licence has been removed should be 20 years in jail no bollox (bollox = rapists serving 8 years, people who point guns at gardai and dont get life you know the bollox that goes on in our legal system) because your card will only be taken off if you cant handle your drink, your one of these ****ing morons who gets all agro. Know your limits people!

There would have to be come leeway when it comes to noise polution because it is annoying but its not damaging to anyone property and its not assualt so maybe a slap on the wrist like Some sort of 3 strikes system you know. After your 3rd strike you get your card taken for 30 days.

Rb

User45701 wrote: »

Sorry - very busy today so encase noone posted this in the topic the solutution is easy.

Drinking licences.

Everyone who is over 18 can apply for one. when you do something wrong like assault/criminal damage ect you have your card taken away. And anyone in this country can at any time driving or not be required to take a test to see if they have consumed drink. Drinking when your licence has been removed should be 20 years in jail no bollox (bollox = rapists serving 8 years, people who point guns at gardai and dont get life you know the bollox that goes on in our legal system) because your card will only be taken off if you cant handle your drink, your one of these ****ing morons who gets all agro. Know your limits people!

There would have to be come leeway when it comes to noise polution because it is annoying but its not damaging to anyone property and its not assualt so maybe a slap on the wrist like Some sort of 3 strikes system you know. After your 3rd strike you get your card taken for 30 days.

I actually like this idea. And instead of like motor licences where a points system is complete failure and does nothing, have a certain limit of points on it, then a three year ban when the maximum points are clocked up.

Publicans would be made check each and every person for their licence, any publican serving someone without a licence gets a stint in jail.

Sounds good.

Schism

Sounds like it would work in theory but then there's enforcing it.

You have to make barstaff/off-license workers check all licenses and then it doesnt get around drink being bought by one guy who has a clean license for his not so clean buddy(s).

Rb

Earthworm Jim! wrote: »

Sounds like it would work in theory but then there's enforcing it.

You have to make barstaff/off-license workers check all licenses and then it doesnt get around drink being bought by one guy who has a clean license for his not so clean buddy(s).

One drink per person? Or just stick someone on the door checking for licences, anyone without one can go home.

Kold

Legalise alternative drugs.

Schism

rb_ie wrote: »

One drink per person? Or just stick someone on the door checking for licences, anyone without one can go home.

That settles pubs but off-licenses wouldn't be able to operate the same system.

It's a hypothetical situation anyway so I guess it doesnt matter.

Terry

Kold wrote: »

Legalise alternative drugs.

Yeah, let's add more fuel to the fire.

Money is not an object for most teenagers these days.
I was talking to my cousin's 14 year old the other night. He told me that one of his (female) friends had spent €25 on alcohol in advance of Paddy's day.
Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I can get drunk on the 8 cans for €14 that I can get in my local off licence.
I've no idea what this girl bought, but the fact that she could afford €25 speaks volumes.

That's jacking up the price and raising the age lmit out the window.

Stricter enforcement of the current laws is the only way to go and has always been the only way forward.
The token raids on certain places every so often are not doing any good. The Gardai just need more powers to enfore these laws. Easier access to search warrants would be a good start.

Kold

To be honest, I just get a few cans of Bavaria. When you get to the girlier drinks you'd spend €25 easy. A few bacardi breezers at almost 3 quid a pop, a naggin or 2, some mixed berry cider.


I'd prefer a quart of MDMA at about €9, about 2 or 3 cans and a pint to pose with ^_^

User45701

Earthworm Jim! wrote: »

Sounds like it would work in theory but then there's enforcing it.

You have to make barstaff/off-license workers check all licenses and then it doesnt get around drink being bought by one guy who has a clean license for his not so clean buddy(s).

Ah thats the whole anyone can be tested at any time. Say your waiting for a bus a gardai can ask you for your ID you dont have one and he suspects you are drunk you get tested. your drink its 20 years for you

Schism

User45701 wrote: »

Ah thats the whole anyone can be tested at any time. Say your waiting for a bus a gardai can ask you for your ID you dont have one and he suspects you are drunk you get tested. your drink its 20 years for you

I see, So it's the severity of the penalty that's the deterent here. Maybe if someone was caught buying alcohol for another unlawfully something similar could be done.

Would only take a few "examples" to get the point across.
There, alcohol induced violence solved!

Dark_lord_ire

Wertz wrote: »

I heard a big "throwing their hands up to heaven" interview on the radio this morning about the riots in Finglas on the 17th...the repeated cry was "where were the parents?"...that's an easy one; they were either off down the pub, or round in someone's house (or their own) getting lamped, because that's how we do...little Johnny and Mary are left to their own devices from a fairly young age, see their parents coming home blind drunk, shouting fighting and worse...they then inevitably aspire to that and when they gather on the streets, teach each other all the best and worst aspects of those learned traits and go on to do basically whatver the f*ck they like, culminating in violence and thuggery.
As mentioned it's in our culture...and in more socially deprived areas, those elemnets of this culture are magnified and carry on from generation to generation, cumulatively getting worse.
The breakdown in efficient parenting and installation of discipline is as much to do with what ends up as drink fueled crime, as the drink itself.

WRT increasing drinking age, never going to happen. I don't think it would really do any good....but strict enforcment of the 18 age limit utilising mandatory ID cards and huge penalties/punishment for alcohol dealers, including individual staff or those buying for underagers might do something to curb it. I'd even go as far as to suggest that parents be held directly responsible if their child accesses alcohol in the home (which is where a lot of it comes from)...

Could not agree more. It maybe a cycle one generation learning from another. The only way to stop it is to not allow anyone with more than one conviction to have responsibility for a baby. State sould allow those who can't have children to have those babies. Drastic but think about it, would improve so many lives

Parsley

Everyone's treating the availability of alcohol in supermarkets etc as the cause of the problem. it's not. the reason people spend less time in pubs, supervised, and more time at home drinking is because of the ridiculous price of alcohol in bars.

Wertz

Dark_lord_ire wrote: »

Could not agree more. It maybe a cycle one generation learning from another. The only way to stop it is to not allow anyone with more than one conviction to have responsibility for a baby. State sould allow those who can't have children to have those babies. Drastic but think about it, would improve so many lives

While I couldn't really support the state removing children from parents in an effort to socially engineer the future, there aren't many alternatives to break the chain of alcohol misuse...and the practice is certainly not unique to council estates or those from a lower social class; just the effects are more pronounced.
The lack of a wrok ethic in a lot of homes in lower social class areas has as much to do with things as any sort of learned behaviour toward drinking. Drink is prevalent in nearly every home in the country, but it's usually balanced out by other things like parents who work, focus on school etc.....when those parents aren't working and only seem to be drinking or the like, the whole time, kids pick up on that and think that that's how things are...it all becomes a self fullfiling prophecy...

connundrum

Parsley wrote: »

Everyone's treating the availability of alcohol in supermarkets etc as the cause of the problem. it's not. the reason people spend less time in pubs, supervised, and more time at home drinking is because of the ridiculous price of alcohol in bars.

To counter that, I have 2 crates of guinness in my kitchen since Christmas. I bought them in Tesco when they were on special, as I am quite the compulsive buyer. I would not have bought that if it were not absolutely shoved in my face, as I wasn't even in the bloody shop to buy beer.

In saying that, I wouldn't blame the shop for trying to sell it to me. Its not their fault I'm a dope. I'm a typical Irish bloke (methinks) who likes a bargain, but above all I'm an overindulger, as are a lot of Irish people. We don't know when to stop with the drink, and that is the problem. Luckily when I have a few too many, I either get sleepy or become friendly with everyone, others however do not. So if you take the availability of drink away, then there won't be the opportunity to overindulge, therefore there won't be as much violence on the streets.**

I am aware that I'm asking the state to nanny me, but I feel its necessary when thousands of people feel the need to drink themselves into a stupor every weekend, leading to an obvious increase in violence - which is what is happening.

**it is very simplistic to say this but... meh.

Newaglish

Staggered closing times ftw

No more thousand+ people emerging on the chippers all at once.

Wertz

Connundrum you know as wel as I do that when half cut people (or even sober ones) get the idea in their heads that they want more drink, there's little that's going to stop them. I've seen mates getting drink at ungodly hours of the monring just to keep the session going (I wasn't complaining at the time either)...availability isn't the issue...if you force people into jumping through additional hoops and/or pay more, for the most part they will because that's the natire of the beast (alcohol).

I see what you're saying about supermarket specials; I often buy drink just cause it's going cheap...and like you I have a crate of Grolsch and half a litre of vodka in the house that was bought months back, and I've little desire to polish it off. That said, I could drink it all this w/e and end up going out and buying more....how hard it might be to find or how much I might have to pay would nearly always be secondary to the desire to acquire that drink...

senordingdong

connundrum wrote: »

Luckily when I have a few too many, I either get sleepy or become friendly with everyone, others however do not. So if you take the availability of drink away, then there won't be the opportunity to overindulge, therefore there won't be as much violence on the streets.**

I am aware that I'm asking the state to nanny me, but I feel its necessary when thousands of people feel the need to drink themselves into a stupor every weekend, leading to an obvious increase in violence - which is what is happening.

**it is very simplistic to say this but... meh.

I agree, it;s not the shops fault for selling you the drink, that you are legally allowed to buy, nor is it the trouble makers fault for buying drink that he was legally allowed to buy.
Alcohol and violence don't go together for the majority of our population.
And increasing the price of alcohol and limiting sales won't help that matter.

Cianos

I'd loosen all the laws up....24 hour licensing, kids can go to bars from the age of 16, every shop can sell booze. The only way to deal with the problem is for Irish people to have a more mature approach to booze. And that's not going to happen if the laws stay the way they are or get tighter.

Booze is still a taboo in Ireland. Most street violence happens when thousands of people spill out on to the streets at the same time, all pissed after necking the 3 drinks they got when they called last orders, piling into chippers and taxi queues.

connundrum

Cianos wrote: »

Booze is still a taboo in Ireland. Most street violence happens when thousands of people spill out on to the streets at the same time, all pissed after necking the 3 drinks they got when they called last orders, piling into chippers and taxi queues.

Forgot about this point actually. Agree with you 100%.

As seen only last Saturday night, one 'champ' decided that all the glasses (some half empty, some nearly full) should be cleared by him after last orders were called. I'd say that he drank the guts of 4 pints in 5 minutes. He puked almost immediately as soon as he got outside the pub, and was found asleep outside the chipper with bruises on his face later that night.

24 hour licences would relax that pressure of having to get as much into you as soon as possible. However, the English authorities are thinking about retracting the 24 hour licences issued, as crime figures have actually gone up in some areas since they were introduced.

senordingdong

I'm not sure about that one myself.
In practice it sounds good but I think that, in Dublin atleast, you would simply have everybody who gets turfed out of the club at 2am, legging it to the club that stays open untill 4am, or that stays open all night.

Likewise, the same gob****es who cause trouble now get longer access to their scapegoat.

Wertz

In a place like Dublin...or any large town, the pub/club with the latest hours would get all the business....so you'd be left with a situation where they'd ALL have to stay open as long as each other...and we're back to square one, except now the crowds are rolling onto the streets en masse at X o'clock, so everyone has to stay up kater to; police them, serve them food, taxi them home. All you do is shift the problem into the smaller hours, and end up keeping half the country awake.

matrim

Cianos wrote: »

I'd loosen all the laws up....24 hour licensing, kids can go to bars from the age of 16, every shop can sell booze. The only way to deal with the problem is for Irish people to have a more mature approach to booze. And that's not going to happen if the laws stay the way they are or get tighter.

Booze is still a taboo in Ireland. Most street violence happens when thousands of people spill out on to the streets at the same time, all pissed after necking the 3 drinks they got when they called last orders, piling into chippers and taxi queues.

If you did this you would have to make sure to enforce the laws around bars selling drink to already very drunk people. It would then stop the crowds of people moving from one pub to the next all night

DonkeyStyle \o/

I think more heavy sack beatings are the way forward.

meathstevie

It's about time we stopped pointing the finger at alcohol as an explanation for the behaviour of a bunch of scumbags. Does anyone honestly think that putting scum in the drydock is going to stop them being thugs ? I for one don't, they're just going to be sober scum.

When I hear the arguments for increasing the price of a drink from the already exorbitant to the downright astronomical I just can't believe the simplicity of the argument. Remember, the US tried to ban drink altogether and had to roll back the decision because the only thing they achieved was creating a market for organised crime selling drink at exorbitant prices. Already drink is being smuggled into Ireland at significant levels to beat prices..you only need to be at Dublin Airport when the flights from the Baltic and the Canary Islands come in to see what I'm talking about. Anyway, a longwinded semi-rant making the point that drink pricing has little or no impact, it only makes it harder on Joe Soap who enjoys a few pints and doesn't use this as an excuse to go on the rampage.

As for the example of those thugs in Finglas, what the hell is wrong with a public order policing approach French style. If those incidents would have been in the suburbs of let's say Lille it would have taken no time for the Mayor to call in about 200 CRS lads to waltz these scumbags from Lille to Paris and back in front of a shieldwall booting seven colors of crap out of them while they're at it. See how eager to indulge in a bit of "drink fuelled anti-social behaviour" they would be by the time they got their dues.

Cianos

Wertz wrote: »

In a place like Dublin...or any large town, the pub/club with the latest hours would get all the business....so you'd be left with a situation where they'd ALL have to stay open as long as each other...and we're back to square one, except now the crowds are rolling onto the streets en masse at X o'clock, so everyone has to stay up kater to; police them, serve them food, taxi them home. All you do is shift the problem into the smaller hours, and end up keeping half the country awake.

I don't think this would be the case. There probably would be a lot of that carry on at the start, just due to the sheer novelty factor, but in terms of actual logistics, having ALL closing times within a half hour of each other pushes 99% of the boozers out on to the street at pretty much the same time. If there were places open til, say, 10am, the amount of people still going at that hour would be tiny, definitely less than 10%...so the other 90% can trickle out at whatever time they wish.

As I said, it'd take a while for Irish people to adapt to their new liberties, but eventually things would settle down and within a few years I think we would have a much more mature attitude towards drinking

Dark_lord_ire

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote: »

I think more heavy sack beatings are the way forward.

Hehe i love it. Can you swing a sack of door knobs?????

On a serious note however, maybe some of the views are right with making the drinking laws more liberal. I was just thinking about Eastern Europe, travelling around there i noticed in alot of places you could drink on the streets, in the parks etc but i did not see anyone falling around drunk everyone was well mannered. Its just the culture here, most of us are mature enough when we drink however maybe 10% or so can hack it. They ruin it for everyone. I will admit when i was 15 i was getting s%$tfaced with friends. But we were never bad, just being careful not to get caught or would be sore for a month