Thoughts on Cork N25 South Ring upgrade?

invincibleirish

So i have been spending plenty of time sitting in traffic on the Ring now recently and a few things have caught my eye on a road that is basically an M50 of the south.

1) the queues for the Tunnel are growing ever further back, today at 5:30 there was solid lines of traffic all the way back to the N28 & Douglas West exits.

2) From the Airport/Kinsale Rd. Flyover through the Sarsfield and Bandon Rd. roundabouts Traffic was backed up nicely in all lanes crawling at a snails pace as the traffic lights allowed.

Now as the new N/M8 roads are coming online over the next few years, as well as the new N22/N28 upgrades in the Distant blurry future, all with the intention i imagine of increasing road capacity and thus meaning more cars will be coming onto the South Ring.

Now i went to the NRA traffic counter site & curiously there was no Counter for the South Ring itself (although the rest of the N25 is meticulously counted?)

However the traffic counters at Dunkettle (40,000), Glanmire (16-18,000) & Ballincollig (10,000 in 2004 when it was just opened IMO it would be a bit higher now) all give an indication of the kind of current levels the N25 is taking at the moment.

http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N08-04B.htm

http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N08-05.htm

http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N08-04A.htm

Throw in the Volumes from the current N28/N27 and the traffic coming out of the other exits from the city & south county suburbs/satellite towns and you have a pretty busy road, which while at the moment only has long queues at the usual times my guess is in the years to come the Tunnel and the various other pinch points and congestion will only increase.

So what to do to combat this congestion?

On the roads side, the 2 roundabouts left were due to get the flyover treatment immediately after the Kinsale flyover but both were long fingered and whose future construction seemingly depends on whether or not Cork politicians shout louder then competing politicians with their own pet projects.

The N28 of course as i mentioned is due to be rebuilt as a DC (Currently at the route selection stage on the NRA website), along with the mythical north ring road (a northern DC tolled bypass of the city also at route selection stage), crucially however these projects, along with the 2 flyovers, are not in Transport 21 so, as mentioned, the projects future is dependant on a mixture of Cork politicians, the NRA, the DoT & DoF all getting along and finding a funding & priority solution, in otherwords probably very little happening for the foreseeable future.

http://www.nra.ie/RoadSchemeActivity/CorkCityCouncil/N22CorkNorthernRingRoad/SchemeName,11608,en.html

http://www.nra.ie/RoadSchemeActivity/CorkCityCouncil/N25CorkSRRInterchanges/SchemeName,11639,en.html

http://www.nra.ie/RoadSchemeActivity/CorkCountyCouncil/N28RingaskiddytoCork/SchemeName,11559,en.html

On the public transport side, in T21, the re-opening of the Midleton line, opening of new stations on the Mallow & Cobh lines and a promise of "A programme of investment to upgrade regional and local bus services.", is what is scheduled for the Cork area, IMO this will have a minor impact on traffic volumes on the South Ring as at the moment bus connections between the the city and its southern hinterland are ok at best,potential rail options are apparently non existant so that leaves the road as the main option.

so back to the two lane twisty South Ring, what can be done about it?(i apoligise for the long post)

corktina

keep off it at peak times is the best advice...there are alternatives available if you resaerch a little...depends where you are heading.....

for instance I regularly do Kanturk to Togher and can acheive this at 9am-ish more or less without stopping....or to avoid the tunnel there are ways through the city that dont involve hellish queues usually....

spacetweek

Sit back and wait...:)

Seriously, I think the N25 South Ring junctions, being an essential upgrade of an urban area road, should be a high priority, like they should aim to complete by 2010.

However I'm pretty sure they're part of T21. I think the Gov is thinking "Interurbans then Atlantic Corridor", so stuff like South Ring/N28 Ringaskiddy etc. are getting ignored.

Chris_533976

No they're not part of T21.

The SRR upgrade (Sarsfield & Bandon roundabouts) wont be done till 2010 at the earliest. It needs doing though, but its a surprisingly large scheme, much bigger than most people think. Its not just 'lob in flyovers' but we're talking collector/distributor setups as large as the Kinsale Road flyover. Looking at the plans I have, the widest point (mainline & slips) will be 11 lanes. I guess tho this is being long fingered as looking at it realistically, its not dangerous to have cars sitting in a jam while twisty narrow bits of S2 interurban exist. Also its not beneficial politically.

The NRR upgrade I didnt think would be tolled? Not sure about that tho. That needs doing too. That will be an interesting project though as the terrain is quite difficult.

N28 upgrade might get a kick up the ass soon due to the Port of Ringaskiddy upgrade. The road is nowhere near suitable as it stands, but the promise of a port upgrade might chivvy the NRA on somewhat.

I am geniunly worried about Dunkettle tho. The NRA told me they're going to do a study into increasing capacity this year (whatever that means.) You're going to get the upgraded M8, the SRR (DC to Macroom soon enough), traffic off the NRR and filtering traffic off the N25 from Midleton combined with a new railway station and P&R facility and the recent plans for 1200 houses nearby all combined on a two level stacked roundabout. Its going to be a DISASTER.

Also, it'll be a complete bitch to upgrade as the tunnel is 2x2 in close proximity to the junction, the proposed P&R will get in the way, Dunkettle House is a protected structure, the amount of water in the way and the stupid developer who wont stop putting in planning for 1200 houses nearby.

It'll be an interesting one to watch, but if all the other projects get done and this is ignored then Dunkettle will easily be the biggest bottleneck that this country has ever seen.


Edit: And they need motorway restrictions (and possibly an 80kmh limit on the Douglas elevated section). The number of tractors on this road is ridiculous, sitting in the slow lane while filtering traffic weaves all around it.

Also most of the lights dont work at the Kinsale Road interchange despite my bitching to the Cork Roads authority.

invincibleirish

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Also most of the lights dont work at the Kinsale Road interchange despite my bitching to the Cork Roads authority.

Yes since they switched the lights on the airport side of the roundabout there is a distinct lack of co-ordination between the lights facing you as you stop on the N27 and the lights on the roundabout.

With regards Douglas, the two exits are frequently backed up out into the link, and as the section is rather twisty i would agree with an 80km limit there has been lots of accidents in that location, but i would imagine long term some kind of mega upgrade re-build will be needed for those sections though i cant imagine how they would have the space to rebuild it.

I knew that the 2 roundabouts would be big jobs but its amazing to think its going to be 11 lanes wide! there really isnt a lot of space at either roundabout in comparison to the Kinsale Rd. roundabout.

With regards the Toll on the North Ring Road, on the NRA site there is no mention of a Toll, but i seem to recall a few years ago that there were suggestions that it would be tolled, all i can find to confirm this is this 2005 article:

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2005/01/19/story260149970.asp

I never thought i would see the day where i would call for PPPs, but maybe in relation to some projects in Cork or elsewhere to get them kick started. the Fermoy bypass would probably still not be there if it wasnt for the PPP process.

As for Dunkettle, well its inevitable whats going to happen there with traffic volumes in years to come :rolleyes:.

Chris_533976

Yeah its a joke.

Didnt mean the Kinsale Road traffic lights by the way, the junction is lit up by a few of those big tall lighting poles, and its them that are broken!

They're doing some work off the elevated Douglas section, but I dont think an extra lane is going in is it? Seems to be a lot of boring and drilling in the carpark, that'd be for a road in Douglas I'd guess. Great job at grandfathering the N25 in if thats the case - couldnt be widened if thats true!

lostinsuperfunk

A lick of paint for the road markings at Dunkettle would be nice.

I've never understood the Douglas section of the N25. Two exits for Douglas on N25 heading east, but none on N25 heading west! One entrance at Douglas to N25 westbound but none to N25 eastbound!

corktina

built on the cheap.....they are doing some sort of wrok alongside the flyover at the mo...nopt sure what that is but fairly extensive...

invincibleirish

Tis the redevelopment of Douglas Village shopping centre which has caused subsidence on a part of the Douglas flyover, further along there is work going on by the Sarsfield Roundabout, Earth clearance of some sort by the GAA pitches.

Pete4779

The first and most important IMHO upgrade is to remove the roundabout at the N8 --> Jack Lynch Tunnel and the Waterford roads. That would mean a clean run from the M8, N8 across the city and west bound with no roundabouts to delay things.

corktina

what about the poor Waterford-direction people? they might want to use the tunnel....in fact in the am rush, i should think more traffic comes that way anyway....

Niall1234

Pete4779 wrote: »

The first and most important IMHO upgrade is to remove the roundabout at the N8 --> Jack Lynch Tunnel and the Waterford roads. That would mean a clean run from the M8, N8 across the city and west bound with no roundabouts to delay things.

No, the correct thing to do with be a complete cloverleaf junction covering all directions. It will have to be done eventually as it WILL become Ireland biggest bottleneck.

corktina

im not sure there is room there to do much at all....perhaps more eeficent traffic lights (common problem all over Cork) which relate to each other is the answer or (dare I say it) get rid of the lights altogether and drivers learn how to use a roundabout properley....

Niall1234

corktina wrote: »

im not sure there is room there to do much at all....perhaps more eeficent traffic lights (common problem all over Cork) which relate to each other is the answer or (dare I say it) get rid of the lights altogether and drivers learn how to use a roundabout properley....

That roundabout was twice as bad without the lights. Lights on a roundabout increase its capacity a lot in my book. I would imagine that a signalised roundabout prob has the highest capacity of any at-grade junction.

The major problem with the roundabout are the extra sliproads added to give access to the old Midleton road and Tunnel maintenance, not to mind the slip roads onto it from the old Midleton road and Little Island.

Something will have to be done for sure. Should have been done day one.

1huge1

corktina wrote: »

im not sure there is room there to do much at all....perhaps more eeficent traffic lights (common problem all over Cork) which relate to each other is the answer or (dare I say it) get rid of the lights altogether and drivers learn how to use a roundabout properley....

Was driving on it one day last year and the lights were turned off (some malfunction), trust me you don't want that, it was hectic

corktina

only because most people dont know how to use a roundabout properley....near where I used to live in the UK, the A34 and the A4 crossed each other...there was a four lane roundabout with no signals....yes it was scary if you were a stranger, but it worked because everyone knew what everyone esle was doing.....and indicated their intentions...and that interesction was much busier than any of the roundabouts in Cork

Niall1234

I can't see how a free roundabout can have a higher capacity than a signalised one.

One car on the roundabout could hold up 10 cars on the slip lane trying to get on. In a signalised roundabout, the cars will be bumper to bumper ensuring that as many as possible get through the roundabout at any one time.

Flashing ambers at non peak hours would be good as it would hold up people less. I wouldn't think so in peak hours though.

invincibleirish

Busier then the Kinsale Road Roundabout before they built the flyover? AFAIK that was handling in and around 100k vehicle movements per day, that didnt have lights on the Airport road side so coimng from the airport onto the roundabout you had to find a gap in the traffic to get onto the roundabout.

result? lots of traffic & accidents.

corktina

the delays are caused by the lag between red and green where noone moves....and the traffic from the airport couldnt pull on to the roundabout because of the traffic held at the lights on the roundabout...

Niall1234

In my book, the delays are caused by gaps between cars which aren't big enough to allow other cars to gain access to the roundabout. This isn't using the roundabout to its fullest capacity. By using lights, you are ensuring the maximum amount of cars on the roundabout at any given time, while also allowing everyone their fair go on the roundabout.

Lennoxschips

For such a small city it never ceases to amaze me how Cork can have such a massive ring road system and still manage to clog it up.

Urban planning from hell. I'm glad I don't live there. If I did I'd try to live in the city and do without a garden.

murphaph

There's no debate here. Signalised roundabouts have higher capacities than non-signalised ones.

Colm R

Lennoxschips wrote: »

For such a small city it never ceases to amaze me how Cork can have such a massive ring road system and still manage to clog it up.

Urban planning from hell. I'm glad I don't live there. If I did I'd try to live in the city and do without a garden.

Cork has a fairly substantial road network, I agree with this. However, you have to remember that in providing solutions to Corks commuting trouble, the DoT, the NRA, Bus Eireann, Irish Rail a whole host of government bodies who only like to do a half arsed job at it. Providing three quarters of the solution does not provide the who solution.

With regard to the South Ring Road, part of the "massive ring road system", its downfalls, are clear. Dunkettle, Sarsfield and Bandon Road Roundabouts. These are not a result of bad planning. These are a result of Budget Cuts made because of the priority of Inter Urbans, (Roads To Dublin) and the great Interurban of them all, the M50.

These same cheap alternatives to building proper infrastructure are repeated all over the country, including Dublin itself.

Chris_533976

Cork wont be too bad once the roundabouts are sorted and the North Ring built. There'll still be a few issues, but there probobly wont be one substantial bottleneck once they're done.

invincibleirish

Chris_533976 wrote: »

once they're done.

If the installation of the 2 Flyovers, the building of the North Ring Road, and upgrading the Dunkettle are completed within the next decade i'll be delighted and amazed that it has happened, but i doubt it will.

invincibleirish

Colm R wrote: »

Cork has a fairly substantial road network, I agree with this. However, you have to remember that in providing solutions to Corks commuting trouble, the DoT, the NRA, Bus Eireann, Irish Rail a whole host of government bodies who only like to do a half arsed job at it. Providing three quarters of the solution does not provide the who solution.

With regard to the South Ring Road, part of the "massive ring road system", its downfalls, are clear. Dunkettle, Sarsfield and Bandon Road Roundabouts. These are not a result of bad planning. These are a result of Budget Cuts made because of the priority of Inter Urbans, (Roads To Dublin) and the great Interurban of them all, the M50.

These same cheap alternatives to building proper infrastructure are repeated all over the country, including Dublin itself.

+1+1+1!

fitzgese

"only because most people dont know how to use a roundabout properley....near where I used to live in the UK, the A34 and the A4 crossed each other...there was a four lane roundabout with no signals....yes it was scary if you were a stranger, but it worked because everyone knew what everyone esle was doing.....and indicated their intentions...and that interesction was much busier than any of the roundabouts in Cork"

Bit off topic, but how exactly does a roundabout like that with 4 lanes work?

corktina

dunno...didnt dare open my eyes.....(its been bypassed now )

Lennoxschips

With regard to the South Ring Road, part of the "massive ring road system", its downfalls, are clear. Dunkettle, Sarsfield and Bandon Road Roundabouts. These are not a result of bad planning.

Of course the traffic jams there are a result of bad planning. A dual carriageway bypass with the odd roundabout is more than sufficient for a city the size of Cork.

What caused the traffic jams in those places was abusing the bypass system by building massive huge housing estates and shopping centres next to it at every opportunity. Developers, politicians and builders milking public infrastructure for private gain.

If Cork had been planned properly, with medium density housing built near the city, with amenities (schools, shops etc) planned close by and proper public transport systems, then there wouldn't be half as many cars on the road.

More and wider ring roads around Cork will only make the problem worse. It's a vicious cycle of bigger roads, more unsustainable urban sprawl, leading to more and bigger roads. Now they want to build a Northern ring road from the N8 north of Glanmire to the road to Blarney. What the hell for?

The sad thing is that when the Celtic Tiger kicked in Ireland had over 50 years of post-industrial global urban planning experiences to draw on. We ignored it all and decided to build our own versions of Los Angeles instead. Ireland is now the most car dependent country in Europe. The only people who benefited are all at the Mahon Tribunal. So think of that when you are next stuck in a traffic jam.

murphaph

Lennoxschips wrote: »

The sad thing is that when the Celtic Tiger kicked in Ireland had over 50 years of post-industrial global urban planning experiences to draw on. We ignored it all and decided to build our own versions of Los Angeles instead. Ireland is now the most car dependent country in Europe. The only people who benefited are all at the Mahon Tribunal. So think of that when you are next stuck in a traffic jam.

...but some of us like our front and back gardens (which we rarely see in daylight)

Lennoxschips

There are parts of the city where things were planned properly, before the Irish government got taken over by property moguls.

I'm thinking of the likes of Ballyphehane. You've got gardens there. There are also integrated street grids, bus routes, shops, schools, playgrounds, churches, parks and even a local library. It's a proper neighbourhood.

Then you have all the sprawling housing estates built on the sides of hills from the 70s/80s onwards, with one entrance on to a main road leading to a thousand cul de sacs. No parks, no schools, no shops, no bus routes, nothing. The only way to get in and out is by car and via a bypass that was never designed to function as a city route. Maximum profit for the developer, minimum quality of life for the citizens.

The traffic problems in Cork are rooted much deeper than roundabouts vs flyovers.