80 killed in Tibet, Chinese will be kept in the dark

jonny72

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7299212.stm

I'm not surprised, the Chinese said 10 died with their usual propaganda, when the toll is nearer to 80. The Chinese people will not even blink an eye, because a) they'll be fed utter lies, and b) they've been fed fake history about the region. Ask any Chinese person you know about Tibet, and ask them about Tianamen Square while you're at it.

gurramok

I wonder if those posters who defend state actions in killing of civilians will condemn what the Chinese have done and are doing in Tibet?

Thirdfox

jonny72 wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7299212.stm

I'm not surprised, the Chinese said 10 died with their usual propaganda, when the toll is nearer to 80. The Chinese people will not even blink an eye, because a) they'll be fed utter lies, and b) they've been fed fake history about the region. Ask any Chinese person you know about Tibet, and ask them about Tianamen Square while you're at it.

What history is that?

And they know about Tian An Men by the way (at least all the Chinese people that I've talked to during my year's study there).

Canonfan

A lot of us studied world history, no country is better than another.
Both Tibetan and Han Chinese culture are worth a lifetime of in-depth study. You cannot simply draw conclusions based on one-sided accounts. It is not the kind of dark age you hear from Western mainstream media. Yes the Communists did make terrible mistakes in the past.

Thirdfox

Canonfan wrote: »

A lot of us studied world history, no country is better than another.
Both Tibetan and Han Chinese culture are worth a lifetime of in-depth study. You cannot simply draw conclusions based on one-sided accounts. It is not the kind of dark age you hear from Western mainstream media. Yes the Communists did make terrible mistakes in the past.

No doubt - cultural revolution, Tiananmen and many others... but I wonder sometimes, what if the KMT had won the civil war and become an American backed "democratic" state would things have turned out better (especially in relation to the the Cold War etc.).

wes

Sad what the Chinese government is doing to the Tibetan people (as well as other ethnic minorities). Things can only get worse from here and we probably won't even know about it.

lostexpectation

did ya see dick roche is in china and says he hasn't brought up tibet in his meetings.

Kevster

Are the Chinese police supposed to just stand there while they get pelted with rocks?

I don't want to take a side in this issue because I don't know all of the facts - none of ye do (I'm assuming). It's better to delay judgement before you go criticising one side over the other. Sure, the Dalai Lama is using the western media, but does that make his side the 'good' side?

wes

Kevster wrote: »

Are the Chinese police supposed to just stand there while they get pelted with rocks?

I don't want to take a side in this issue because I don't know all of the facts - none of ye do (I'm assuming). It's better to delay judgement before you go criticising one side over the other. Sure, the Dalai Lama is using the western media, but does that make his side the 'good' side?

They could just end there occupation. See no rocks then. Even then, the rocks are hardly a bloody threat to the great and mighty PRC military.

Of course we don't know whats going on, due to the Chinese government tossing out foreign media. So, to me, that makes it look like there up to no good and don't want the News filled with pictures of dead Tibetan protesters.

Kevster

wes wrote: »

Of course we don't know whats going on, due to the Chinese government tossing out foreign media. So, to me, that makes it look like there up to no good and don't want the News filled with pictures of dead Tibetan protesters.

Up to no good, eh? Yes - perhaps - but that doesn't mean that 'good' nations aren't up to no good either. For example, were you aware that yesterday was the anniversary of the My Lai massacre in Vietnam - an event where the US army murdered around 500 unnarmed civilians? The US army - being the good people they are - attempted to cover it up.

If you hadn't heard about this, that's because no western media chose to cover the anniversary. I only heard about it while watching the Al Jazeera news channel.

Thirdfox

To be fair - I just finished reading the article from BBC news that talked about the My Lai massacre (apparently 3 villages were exterminated, not just one).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7298533.stm

That's why I really respect the BBC news as being a cut above the rest - it has shown an impressive ability to be quite objective in its reportage on every event (and why I'm worried by the fact that the Chinese government has decided to block it - block the trash that comes from Fox News, not a good news site like the BBC).

Just watched the Newsnight programme where they showed video clips of Tibetans armed with knives attacking Chinese people and monks burning down stores (apparently these videos weren't shown on the Chinese news channels for fear of the Chinese population asking the government to use harsher force against the rebels).

Kevster

I appreciate the BBC news service too. I used to watch Fox news and Sky news until I realised that they don't report everything; and what they do report is tainted with opinion.

The only news channels I watch now are Euronews, BBC News 24, and Al Jazeera.

wes

Kevster wrote: »

Up to no good, eh? Yes - perhaps - but that doesn't mean that 'good' nations aren't up to no good either. For example, were you aware that yesterday was the anniversary of the My Lai massacre in Vietnam - an event where the US army murdered around 500 unnarmed civilians? The US army - being the good people they are - attempted to cover it up.

If you hadn't heard about this, that's because no western media chose to cover the anniversary. I only heard about it while watching the Al Jazeera news channel.

I get my news from BBC, Sky and Al Jazeera (the website as I don't get it on my tv). I am no fan of American foreign policy and have made my opinion known on it before.

Regardless, what the US has done, does not excuse the PRC here at all. Bringing them into it isn't a defense at all. The PRC army are on the move and we may very well not know what they may do to the people of Tibet.

daithicarr

i think in this case it is very easy to determine who is the "good" guy .
The Tibetans don’t occupy any part of China illegally, they don’t operate detention and concentration camps, they don’t maintain a massive military and paramilitary force to suppress any dissent. all of these activities are carried out by the PRC not only on the Tibetans and other minorities but also on the Han majority.

when China took control of the Tibetan areas, there were some 6 million Tibetans (according to many sources except the Chinese) , today there are 5.7 to 6 million Tibetans , a population which has stagnated or declined despite having a large birthrate. this is at the same time when the population of china has expanded massively.

huge numbers of Tibetans have died due to Chinese occupation, the number ranging from 300,000 missing Tibetans by Chinese sources to over 1 million by Tibetan sources.

In addition over 7 million Han Chinese have been settled in Tibetan areas to decrease the chance of them braking away ( a policy followed in other ethnic minority areas)

The Chinese continue to detain and torture not only Tibetan clergy and lay people, but large numbers of other people who they see as a threat. executions and tortures of all types including rape are used to suppress dissent.

On the other hand, the Tibetans have rioted a bit, burnt some Chinese businesses, and attacked a hand full of Han Chinese who they see as invaders.

so while the Tibetans have committed some small amounts of violence, it does not compare to the slow but steady cultural genocide which the Tibetans are subject too.

SkepticOne

Kevster wrote: »

Up to no good, eh? Yes - perhaps - but that doesn't mean that 'good' nations aren't up to no good either.

By this logic, no nation can be criticised about anything because the US or some other western nation is guilty of some completely unrelated misconduct.

cabinteelytom

Ireland should make a principled objection to occupation, settlements and annexation and demand that independence be restored to the people of Tibet.
This would not be an infringement of neutrality-it would be neccessary solidarity with a threatened indigenous people. Free Tibet.

leincar

cabinteelytom wrote: »

Ireland should make a principled objection to occupation, settlements and annexation and demand that independence be restored to the people of Tibet.
This would not be an infringement of neutrality-it would be neccessary solidarity with a threatened indigenous people. Free Tibet.

Ireland principled ? Mmm Mmm. How novel an idea.

Anyway I was in China for a Week in early January and you NEVER mention the 3 Ts. Tiananmen, Taiwan and Tibet. Big no no's

I found Beijing a foul place and people seemed to have this 'Middle Kingdom' attitude that some people may have heard of.

If people feel aggrieved you can only hit China 1 way and its quite hard. Avoid buying their products. It can be done. I made a concious effort to buy European when I came back and so far have been caught out twice. A sat nav and garlic from Superquinn.

Glad to see a thread has started on China as I feel China is going to have a major influence and bearing on all our lives for the rest of this century. And I don't think its going to be for the better.

daithicarr

Ireland would never stand up to any country like China, the Goverment are completely spinless. they wont even check US rendition flights , stating that the americans assured us nothing bad was happening. must be the only country in western Europe who accept that at face value.

As long as there is money or the potential of money our goverment will smile politely and make appeasing sounds.

Even after the horrors of the holocaust were revelaed, our president sent official commiserations to germany on the death of hitler, and took in a Pitifully small hand full of Jewish holocaust survivours. thats not being neutral thats just being spineless

rowlandbrowner

problem is, when most people say “free Tibet”, they really mean a tibet ruled by a religious bureaucracy

BostonFenian

rowlandbrowner wrote: »

problem is, when most people say “free Tibet”, they really mean a tibet ruled by a religious bureaucracy

So? They should have the right to whichever form of government they choose to have, not one imposed upon them.

wes

rowlandbrowner wrote: »

problem is, when most people say “free Tibet”, they really mean a tibet ruled by a religious bureaucracy

They would have to try really hard to be worse than the current Communist regime, which is basically destroying Tibetan culture and colonized the country to the point where the Tibetans are out numbered by colonists. Basically the PRC is destroying Tibetan culture for all intents and purpose.

Also, who's to say that a free Tibet would end up with a religious government.

rowlandbrowner

BostonFenian wrote: »

So? They should have the right to whichever form of government they choose to have, not one imposed upon them.

The working people of Tibet did want to change the system of Government they had, so they joined with the PRC and removed the last crowd, it wasn't imposed.

wes wrote: »

Also, who's to say that a free Tibet would end up with a religious government.

The Free Tibet Movement and the exiled government.

daithicarr

rowlandbrowner wrote: »

The working people of Tibet did want to change the system of Government they had, so they joined with the PRC and removed the last crowd, it wasn't imposed.
.

oh yeah sure they did thats .why they resisted it, and rebelled against it on numerous occasions.and why the chinese maintain in the region of 250,000 troops. to make sure the evil Dali lama and his army of evil henchmen and terrorists dont overthrow the workers utopia of tibet.

Maybe that why they have a large news black out and stop foreigners from entering the area, to prevent us seeing what a truly egalitarian and prosperous society the PRC have built in tibet so those of us not lucky enough to live under the benign beijing regime will not become jealous and start emigrating to the region in search of a better life.

Raspberry

I think there is a lot of Western propaganda in circulation about China that exadurates things slightly. Chinese people are not denied their human rights. They are happy. I think the Western media throws out this propaganda because they don't like the Chinese government because it does very little to stop the production of counterfit and fake products. It may even be deeper than that and there may still be elements of the Capitalism vs Communism still in circulation. I think the real problem here is with us and the spin our media put on the Chinese government's dealings.

fly_agaric

rowlandbrowner wrote: »

The working people of Tibet did want to change the system of Government they had, so they joined with the PRC and removed the last crowd, it wasn't imposed.

I'm sure that they were so pleased to be included in Mao's "cultural revolution" as a little bonus also!

Raspberry wrote: »

II think the Western media throws out this propaganda because they don't like the Chinese government because it does very little to stop the production of counterfit and fake products.

Yes, that it....
Any stories that don't fawn over how "wonderful" China is are the result of bitterness over lost profits because of knock-off Prada handbags, dodgy dvds, and pirated M$ software!
It's all "propaganda" but never fear - Xinhua will tell us the truth even if the beeb will slander China because fake products are hitting western companies in the pocket!

Raspberry

fly_agaric wrote: »

Yes, that it....
Any stories that don't fawn over how "wonderful" China is are the result of bitterness over lost profits because of knock-off Prada handbags, dodgy dvds, and pirated M$ software!
It's all "propaganda" but never fear - Xinhua will tell us the truth even if the beeb will slander China because fake products are hitting western companies in the pocket!

I'm glad you agree with me.

gurramok

China is the biggest creditor to the US economy and probably a few other Western nations.

Thats why criticsm is mooted of China, both the US and China need each other economically, it's simple as that.

Raspberry

gurramok wrote: »

China is the biggest creditor to the US economy and probably a few other Western nations.

Thats why criticsm is mooted of China, both the US and China need each other economically, it's simple as that.

Conspiracy theories is that way man.

---

> http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=576

gurramok

Raspberry wrote: »

Conspiracy theories is that way man.

---

> http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=576

Not a conspiracy, everything that a govt has views on in international events is intriniscally linked to trade.
The arms trade is one example and Iraq in the past(oil) is another.

Ask yourself, why is criticism mooted of the brutal crackdown in Tibet by China?

I offered my explanation, what's yours other than 'Western Propaganda'?

fly_agaric

Raspberry wrote: »

Conspiracy theories is that way man.

---

> http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=576

Lead the way...

Syke

Interesting the take on all this.

While China's tactics are plain wrong, to make out Tibet and Dalai Lama rule to be good is a little ignorant of the history.

Until the 60's the Lama rule was in blatant defiance of human rights and their history is so sordid in that respect that I'm surprised how clouded some opinions are.

carsonsunhao

Canonfan wrote: »

A lot of us studied world history, no country is better than another.
Both Tibetan and Han Chinese culture are worth a lifetime of in-depth study. You cannot simply draw conclusions based on one-sided accounts. It is not the kind of dark age you hear from Western mainstream media. Yes the Communists did make terrible mistakes in the past.

:Dfully agree, people here seems only knows about Han Chinese and tibetan, so that other 55 minorities are ignored, seems they would become a well recogniesed president of 1.3billion people so that none of such issue will be discussed, seems they can protect us from the attacking of UFO so that police can drink a cup of tea behind me:D let's keep imagining............................

MasterSun

jonny72 wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7299212.stm

I'm not surprised, the Chinese said 10 died with their usual propaganda, when the toll is nearer to 80. The Chinese people will not even blink an eye, because a) they'll be fed utter lies, and b) they've been fed fake history about the region. Ask any Chinese person you know about Tibet, and ask them about Tianamen Square while you're at it.

listen to both sides of stories
u can NOT assume the Exile Government give the absolutely actual info.

MasterSun

daithicarr wrote: »

oh yeah sure they did thats .why they resisted it, and rebelled against it on numerous occasions.and why the chinese maintain in the region of 250,000 troops. to make sure the evil Dali lama and his army of evil henchmen and terrorists dont overthrow the workers utopia of tibet.

Maybe that why they have a large news black out and stop foreigners from entering the area, to prevent us seeing what a truly egalitarian and prosperous society the PRC have built in tibet so those of us not lucky enough to live under the benign beijing regime will not become jealous and start emigrating to the region in search of a better life.

1st thing to point out that only a minority of the Tibetan people are for the rebellion against the Hans.

u raised the issue that there are 250,000 troops stationed in the Tibet Autonomous Region.
let me tell u something, u have to analyse the figure before moving on to a judgement. The Tibet autonomous region accounts for 12.8 percent of China's total land area. In total, China have an activity troop of 2,255,000.
So let’s do some calculations
12.8% of 2,255,000 is …………. 288,640
288,640 take away 250,000 is ……38,640
So China should have 288,640 troops in Tibet, but actually they only have 250,000 men over there, they are 38,640 men short. In my option, China should station more troops in this region, because it has an international border of nearly 4,000 kilometres with of Myanmar, India, Bhutan, Sikkim and Nepal. Not mentioning the Sino-Indian war.

So the numbers of troops is not much, it is too little.


Ref:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CEFD61538F931A35753C1A96E958260

http://www.kansaspress.ku.edu/concia.html

http://www.tibet.cn/english/zt/unspoiled-land/..%5Cunspoiled-land/20040200451784828.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_active_troops

http://www.index-china.com/index-english/Tibet-s.html

http://www.china.org.cn/english/zhuanti/tibetfacts/163178.htm

carsonsunhao

Master Sun buddy, we'd better make sure the infos that we are given here is made by westem media. otherwise they might call you 'fully paid comminisit member' , so also check this out http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CEFD61538F931A35753C1A96E958260

wes

carsonsunhao wrote: »

Master Sun buddy, we'd better make sure the infos that we are given here is made by westem media. otherwise they might call yo'fully paid comminisit member' , so also check this out http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...53C1A96E958260

Considering the stuff that Mao (and those after him) done. I think it going to be very very hard to make out the Dalai Lama to be worse than the communist regime of China.

Personally, what I think is most important, is what the Tibetan people want. From where I am sitting they want seem to want freedom.

Amazotheamazing

MasterSun wrote: »

The Tibet autonomous region accounts for 12.8 percent of China's total land area.

And what if Tibet doesn't want to be part of China? Why does China desperately feel the need to keep Tibet part of China?

If Tibetan people want to free from Chinese rule, why stop them?

GuanYin

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

And what if Tibet doesn't want to be part of China? Why does China desperately feel the need to keep Tibet part of China?

If Tibetan people want to free from Chinese rule, why stop them?

It was my understanding that The Dalai Lama wasn't actually calling for tibetan independence, rather a form of self rule, or at least greater autonomy within China.

Tibet isn't really in a position to be an independent nation in terms of development or strategic politics. I still question the ethos of Lama rule as well, despite the notions bandied about here, it's not a good vs. bad scenario.

fly_agaric

MasterSun wrote: »

1st thing to point out that only a minority of the Tibetan people are for the rebellion against the Hans.

u raised the issue that there are 250,000 troops stationed in the Tibet Autonomous Region.
let me tell u something, u have to analyse the figure before moving on to a judgement. The Tibet autonomous region accounts for 12.8 percent of China's total land area. In total, China have an activity troop of 2,255,000.
So let’s do some calculations
12.8% of 2,255,000 is …………. 288,640
288,640 take away 250,000 is ……38,640
So China should have 288,640 troops in Tibet, but actually they only have 250,000 men over there, they are 38,640 men short. In my option, China should station more troops in this region, because it has an international border of nearly 4,000 kilometres with of Myanmar, India, Bhutan, Sikkim and Nepal. Not mentioning the Sino-Indian war.

We know empires are always very interested in the land area, borders, and resourses etc of their conquests but since its people and not geographical features which actually do the rebelling (or trouble-making if you prefer), wouldn't some figures on Tibet's population be more useful? From a quick search I see its (very roughly) 3 million or (again very roughly) 0.2 % of China's total population. I presume alot of that 3 million would be immigrants who have moved to Tibet since Mao annexed it.

PSI:Las Vegas wrote:

Tibet isn't really in a position to be an independent nation in terms of development or strategic politics.

Now, who does that remind us of?

GuanYin

fly_agaric wrote: »

Now, who does that remind us of?

Me or Tibet?

If you mean Tibet, I assume the obvious analogy with the North is there. But lets keep that tangent on topic as much as can be.

Thirdfox

Thirdfox wrote: »

To be fair - I just finished reading the article from BBC news that talked about the My Lai massacre (apparently 3 villages were exterminated, not just one).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7298533.stm

That's why I really respect the BBC news as being a cut above the rest

But nobody reported the thousands of civilians who were killed execution style and put into mass graves when the North Vietnamese invaded the city of Hue during the tet offensive!

As far as Im concerned any of these newsagencies will report whatever they think is popular and will get them viewings.

irishconvert

Kevster wrote: »

I appreciate the BBC news service too. I used to watch Fox news and Sky news until I realised that they don't report everything; and what they do report is tainted with opinion.

The only news channels I watch now are Euronews, BBC News 24, and Al Jazeera.

I wouldn't depend on BBC for impartial reporting of news, especially anything the UK are involved in, e.g. Iraq and Afganistan wars

According to this article Al Jazeera is also questionable: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2103785,00.html

fly_agaric

PSI: Las Vegas wrote: »

Me or Tibet?

If you mean Tibet, I assume the obvious analogy with the North is there. But lets keep that tangent on topic as much as can be.

I thought it would remind anyone (who is Irish) of Ireland itself. "Unfit to rule themselves" could be a paraphrase of your post.

MasterSun

fly_agaric wrote: »

I presume alot of that 3 million would be immigrants who have moved to Tibet since Mao annexed it.

wrong presumption

According to the 2001 census, the Tibet Autonomous Region had a population of 2.63 million, of which 92.2 percent were Tibetans, 5.9 percent were Han people (immigrants), while other ethnic peoples accounted for 1.9 percent.



http://www.10thnpc.org.cn/english/tibet-english/rkmz.htm

GuanYin

fly_agaric wrote: »

I thought it would remind anyone (who is Irish) of Ireland itself. "Unfit to rule themselves" could be a paraphrase of your post.

Well no, I think you're wrong to make that analogy. Northern Ireland maybe - as an independent state, would the North be able to support itself or would it be a disaster for the inhabitants.

Tibet would suffer the same issue, for instance, at present the huge concerns among the tibetan population is that they are suffering from high Chinese inflation rates without the relative boom seen in the rest of the country and that Chinese Hans are being preferred in jobs. Sound familiar?

This is a seperate and more widespread concern than the "freedom fighting" of the Lama followers.

Now taking these concerns and seeing how they'd be changed by independence for Tibet, they would unlikely be resolved. For a start, import/export taxation by an unfriendly Chinese neighbour would put Free Tibet on a very poor economic standing. In addition, how much expertese would they lose by a Han Chinese exodus? Would their economy survive?

To be fair to the Lama, he's not stupid, he is not looking for independence, he's looking for autonomy. The best of both worlds.

daithicarr

MasterSun wrote: »

wrong presumption

According to the 2001 census, the Tibet Autonomous Region had a population of 2.63 million, of which 92.2 percent were Tibetans, 5.9 percent were Han people (immigrants), while other ethnic peoples accounted for 1.9 percent.



http://www.10thnpc.org.cn/english/tibet-english/rkmz.htm

Well lets look at those figures you provided Master Sun, at 2,255,000 Active troops thats one soldier per 576 inhabitents in China, at 250, 000 troops stationed in The TAR , thats one soldier per 10.52 inhabitents. slightly above the national average, dont you think. I am sure the Tibetans are delighted that their friends the Han value them so much to give them so much extra protection.

Also an intresting point is that the TAR region (Tibetan Autonomous region) does not include all the areas inahbited by ethinc Tibetans, even by chinese figures over half the Tibetans live on ancestral lands in enighbouring provinces, it is in these areas that Han migration has been much more pronounced as it is more accesable.

If the Tibetans are so happy with China, why dont they let a UN monitoured referendum be held to decide the matter?

MasterSun

daithicarr wrote: »

Well lets look at those figures you provided Master Sun, at 2,255,000 Active troops thats one soldier per 576 inhabitents in China, at 250, 000 troops stationed in The TAR , thats one soldier per 10.52 inhabitents. slightly above the national average, dont you think. I am sure the Tibetans are delighted that their friends the Han value them so much to give them so much extra protection.

Also an intresting point is that the TAR region (Tibetan Autonomous region) does not include all the areas inahbited by ethinc Tibetans, even by chinese figures over half the Tibetans live on ancestral lands in enighbouring provinces, it is in these areas that Han migration has been much more pronounced as it is more accesable.

If the Tibetans are so happy with China, why dont they let a UN monitored referendum be held to decide the matter?

Wrong again,

1st thing, ur figures are a bit off,

according to the 2006 report, China have 1.71 Active troops per thousand citizens, which worked out as one soldier per 585 inhabitants, not 576 which u have claimed.

Ref:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_active_troops

http://www.csis.org/media/csis/pubs/060626_asia_balance_powers.pdf

2nd

The main reason that there are 250,000 soldiers in T.A.R is to protect China's territory from foreign invasions (example: Sino - Indian War). So T.A.R can achieve peace and economic development. And the people in Tibet would be happy. This is nothing to do with the soldier per citizens rate.



Another thing I want to point out is the Chinese law allow all races to join its army and to hold positions in government bodies (The current head Governor of T.A.R is a native of Qamdo Prefecture. His name is Qiangba Puncog.) The T.A.R's recent years booming economic activities are the effort of the Hans, Tibetans and all other ethics. So the people in Tibet should not just thank the Hans also themselves as well.


About the size of Tibetan region
1st let's talk about why those Tibet people are outside TAR.
Undoubtedly, Tibet is one of the harshest places for human existence due to its landscape and Climate.
This is one of the reasons why the population is so low, large numbers of emigrants moved to China's Midland area over the past thousands of yrs, the numbers of emigrants increased rapidly in the past 30 yrs after the China introduced the open border policy. If u Google Ancient Chinese maps, u could see the shape of the Tibet Province changed several times in different dynasties.

It is true that all the areas occupied by Tibetan ethnics are not in the TAR. but consider this, in the states of Iowa and South Dakota, over 55% of total Population are German decedents , but u don't see the German Government claim Sovereignty right over those two states.
http://www.germancorner.com/info/stat/USpop.html
Why?
Because the majority of those people regard themselves as American be4 they see themselves as German. this is also the case in China.
Get my point?



u mentioned the idea of an UN monitored referendum in Tibet.

Yes, i agree People in Tibet should decide on their future, . (Please note: by People in Tibet, I mean all the people in Tibet), but a referendum like this isn't easy to organise.
For example, Last week, A small radical group in Tibet used violent to seek separation from China , that only made the situation worse. This is an evident that some of the separatist had refused to negotiate with the central government and they are determined to break the chances of a peaceful resolution to the issue. (please note: secret meetings were hold between Dalai Lama's exile government and the central government
see
http://secrettibet.rsfblog.org/archive/2007/05/18/tibet-talks-with-china-could-resume.html
)
Don’t u agree?

Thirdfox

Yay! BBC unblocked in China

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7312240.stm

Hopefully we'll see fairer coverage of both sides of the story now (especially when Chinese posters start flooding the comment sites with inconvenient facts...)

Positive step by the CCP definitely.

daithicarr

MasterSun wrote: »

Wrong again,

1st thing, ur figures are a bit off,

according to the 2006 report, China have 1.71 Active troops per thousand citizens, which worked out as one soldier per 585 inhabitants, not 576 which u have claimed.

?

Oh sorry, god that completely undermines my argument, that there are only 585 people per soldier , as opposed to roughly 10 per one in Tibet.

Master Sun all your arguments are non sensical, they follow the same daft lies pumped out by the Communist goverment of China about the Dalai Lama being a terrorist. maybe they will claim some day to that mother Teresa was actually a hooker ?

Of all the countrys in the world, the only ones who support the stance that the Tibetans are generally happy under chinese rule are strangely enough China , and a few countrys such as Burma, North Korea etc, not exactly places known for the openess and obectivity.

Just because China dominated an Area for a long time in history doesnt give them a right to do so, England dominated ireland for a long time, but we rightly won out independance. mongolia dominated China for a long time, does that give them right to do it again?

I have noticed a lot of stuff on utube recently and other places, that are clealry bad Chinese attempts at propoganda, usually brining up old historical facts such as european mistreatment of indigenous peoples to justify that we have no right to lecture China when it does the same. Their propganda might be more effective if they didnt make Ludicrous claims such as the Dali Lama being a terrorist.
Even if outside agents were Stirriing unrest, it would be impossible to do so, unless the people were unhappy. clearly they are unhappy

MasterSun

daithicarr wrote: »

Master Sun all your arguments are non sensical, they follow the same daft lies pumped out by the Communist goverment of China about the Dalai Lama being a terrorist. maybe they will claim some day to that mother Teresa was actually a hooker ?

i have never said the Dalai Lama is a terrorist.
if u think my arguments makes no sense, u could find out evidents and use it to debate with me , but do not make up things ( like the mother Teresa one above) to back up ur argument. that is simply ridiculous. It is very offensive.

clearly, u are influenced by propagandas of the Tibetan exile Government .
u have been tricked to believe that the majority of the people in Tibet are against the central government. let me tell u something,the Dalai Lama does not represent every citizen in Tibet and he is not the only one religious leader of the Tibetans. The Panchen Lama has openly criticized the separation movement, he condemned the Lhasa riot

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2008-03/17/content_6540348.htm

Just because China dominated an Area for a long time in history doesnt give them a right to do so, England dominated ireland for a long time, but we rightly won out independance. mongolia dominated China for a long time, does that give them right to do it again?

i believe history is one element,
but the Key element is what do the majority of people want?
to prove my point, let me remind u that
Ireland is still separated into 2 parts, R.O.I and Northern Ireland,
the existence of NI is because the majority people of the 6 counties wanted remain in the UK. even through the SF party want an unite Ireland and they have some supporters in the North. but did they achieve it?


From my observation, most people in Tibet want Tibet to remain in China.
to compare Tibet with NI
SF party = the exile government
IRA = rioters