the Empire Strikes Back

Galvasean

There you go lads, discuss it to your hearts content because so help me God I'm doing my best to keep it off film of the week!


-sorry.

tman

Thanks for the reminder, I'll nominate it now!

Galvasean

Don't get me wrong I think its a fine film, but the Empire Strikes Back for FotW lobby is becoming a running joke.

Lovers to Boba Fett.

Theboinkmaster

yeah ive been voting for it for weeks now! will discuss properly once its rightfully on the list

Tusky

I voted for it thanks to this thread...!

Pigman II

Thanks for the reminder to vote for it again op.

Galvasean

And so Galvasean's Machievalien scheme goes on.

guinnessdrinker

I think its the best Star Wars film and once it gets in I too will discuss it more in dept.

Galvasean

You know its perfectly acceptable to discuss films that arent FotW...

Question, why didn't the AT-ATs just stop walking when they saw the Snowspeeders coming?

Pigman II

Lucas had paid very talented animators to get those At-at's to walk and he wanted to get his moneyworth.

grames_bond

question: why did episodes 1-3 suck so bad!?!?



(let the floodgates open)

RastaRed

Episode One(Apart from Darth Maul) and first half of Episode Two sucked balls, Episode 3 was excellent

Pigman II

grames_bond wrote: »

(let the floodgates open)

Yeah way to go against grain there!

You may not have noticed it but there's been a campaign to get a SW movie into FOTW for about six months now, without success. So Star Wars really isn't that popular here.

Galvasean

RastaRed wrote: »

Episode 3 was excellent

Except the dream sequences, except Hayden's acting (even though he is good in many other films), except the strange blur surrounding characters separating from the background, except the terrible robot walker designs, except the way they shoehorned Chewbacca in, except the gaping plot holes, except the rubbish fight scenes involving Christopher Lee and Sam Jackson, except when Vader yells, "NNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!""
etc.

Pigman II

Galvasean wrote: »

Except the dream sequences, except Hayden's acting (even though he is good in many other films), except the strange blur surrounding characters separating from the background, except the terrible robot walker designs, except the way they shoehorned Chewbacca in, except the gaping plot holes, except the rubbish fight scenes involving Christopher Lee and Sam Jackson, except when Vader yells, "NNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!""
etc.

Did you not even enjoy Obi Wan saying "not even the younglings survived!" whilst choking back the tears? Pure Lucas.

armour87

The only thing wrong with episode two for me was the rubbish love story it had going every five minutes. Other than that I thought it was by far the best new one.

grames_bond

Galvasean wrote: »

Except the dream sequences, except Hayden's acting (even though he is good in many other films), except the strange blur surrounding characters separating from the background, except the terrible robot walker designs, except the way they shoehorned Chewbacca in, except the gaping plot holes, except the rubbish fight scenes involving Christopher Lee and Sam Jackson, except when Vader yells, "NNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!""
etc.

so you didnt like it then no?!

Theboinkmaster

My god if Empire doesn't get on the FOTW list soon it will be a complete mockery considering some of the films that will get on there before it......

If any fans haven't seen the Lucas AFI tribute it really is worth a watch - especially the carrie fisher speech...

Checkout part 1 here (there are 12!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiQKJ4apPEw

Galvasean

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

My god if Empire doesn't get on the FOTW list soon it will be a complete mockery considering some of the films that will get on there before it......

Exactly which of the movies so far do you consider inferior? Bar one or two the list is full of classics.
Of course film quality is highly open to debate/interpretation.


#1 - Oldboy
#2 - 12 Angry Men
#3 - Leon
#4 - This Is Spinal Tap
#5 - Dr. Strangelove
#6 - The Princess Bride
#7 - The Big Lebowski / Pulp Fiction
#8 - Fight Club
#9 - One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest
#10 - Sin City
#11 - Tremors
#12 - Battle Royale
#13 - Grave Of The Fireflies
#14 - John Carpenter's The Thing
#15 - 12 Monkeys
#16 - Brotherhood Of The Wolf
#17 - Batman Begins
#18 - Eternal Sunshine Of The Spotless Mind
#19 - The Seven Samurai
#20 - Pan's Labyrinth
#21 - City of God (Cidade De Deus)
#22 - American History X
#23 - Memento
#24 - Audition
#25 - Die Hard
#26 - Serenity
#27 - The Prestige
#28 - Aliens
#29 - The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
#30 - V For Vendetta
#31 - Blade Runner
#32 - The Terminator
#33 - Requiem For A Dream
#34 - The Shawshank Redemption
#35 - Apocalypse Now
#36 - Ring (リング)
#37 - Goodfellas
#38 - 2001: A Space Odyssey
#39 - Casablanca
#40 - The Godfather
#41 - Save The Green Planet
#42 - The Goonies
#43 - American Psycho
#44 - To Kill A Mockingbird
#45 - Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
#46 - Zatoichi
#47 - The Usual Suspects
#48 - Rushmore
#49 - Heat
#50 - Withnail & I
#51 - Monty Python's Life Of Brian
#52 - Starship Troopers
#53 - Mulholland Drive
#54 - Psycho
#55 - Anchorman
#56 - The Seventh Seal
#57 - Alien
#58 - Raiders Of The Lost Ark
#59 - Point Break
#60 - American Beauty
#61 - Falling Down

Theboinkmaster

Galvasean wrote: »

Exactly which of the movies so far do you consider inferior? Bar one or two the list is full of classics.
Of course film quality is highly open to debate/interpretation.


#1 - Oldboy
#2 - 12 Angry Men
#3 - Leon
#4 - This Is Spinal Tap
#5 - Dr. Strangelove
#6 - The Princess Bride
#7 - The Big Lebowski / Pulp Fiction
#8 - Fight Club
#9 - One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest
#10 - Sin City
#11 - Tremors
#12 - Battle Royale
#13 - Grave Of The Fireflies
#14 - John Carpenter's The Thing
#15 - 12 Monkeys
#16 - Brotherhood Of The Wolf
#17 - Batman Begins
#18 - Eternal Sunshine Of The Spotless Mind
#19 - The Seven Samurai
#20 - Pan's Labyrinth
#21 - City of God (Cidade De Deus)
#22 - American History X
#23 - Memento
#24 - Audition
#25 - Die Hard
#26 - Serenity
#27 - The Prestige
#28 - Aliens
#29 - The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
#30 - V For Vendetta
#31 - Blade Runner
#32 - The Terminator
#33 - Requiem For A Dream
#34 - The Shawshank Redemption
#35 - Apocalypse Now
#36 - Ring (リング)
#37 - Goodfellas
#38 - 2001: A Space Odyssey
#39 - Casablanca
#40 - The Godfather
#41 - Save The Green Planet
#42 - The Goonies
#43 - American Psycho
#44 - To Kill A Mockingbird
#45 - Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
#46 - Zatoichi
#47 - The Usual Suspects
#48 - Rushmore
#49 - Heat
#50 - Withnail & I
#51 - Monty Python's Life Of Brian
#52 - Starship Troopers
#53 - Mulholland Drive
#54 - Psycho
#55 - Anchorman
#56 - The Seventh Seal
#57 - Alien
#58 - Raiders Of The Lost Ark
#59 - Point Break
#60 - American Beauty
#61 - Falling Down

Yeah I 100% agree - the joy of film is it's completely subjective however IMHO Empire is

a) better made technically
b) more entertaining
c) bigger impact on audiences and film industry as a whole

than the following (from above list):

#3 - Leon
#6 - The Princess Bride
#7 - The Big Lebowski / Pulp Fiction
#15 - 12 Monkeys
#17 - Batman Begins
#23 - Memento
#26 - Serenity
#30 - V For Vendetta
#32 - The Terminator
#35 - Apocalypse Now
#40 - The Godfather
#42 - The Goonies
#43 - American Psycho
#47 - The Usual Suspects
#48 - Rushmore
#50 - Withnail & I
#52 - Starship Troopers
#55 - Anchorman
#60 - American Beauty
#61 - Falling Down

so whilst I agree with those films inclusion on the list - before Empire? Not a chance!

Galvasean

Empire Strikes Back had more impact than the Terminator..?
Come off it. You could argue A New Hope did alright, but not Empire.

guinnessdrinker

I prefered Empire to A New Hope. Empire was also the darkest of all the Star Wars films I think. No happy endings or recieving medals in a big ceromony on this one

Pigman II

BTW, I'm declaring this film of the week #64. It deserves it.

It's such a technical and stylistic masterpiece that I only wish I could have been around to see it first time when it came out in cinemas. I can only imagine how blown away audiences were with it? After the cultural impact the original Star Wars made surely they couldn't have expected a movie that would actually top it?

Slutmonkey57b

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

Yeah I 100% agree - the joy of film is it's completely subjective however IMHO Empire is

a) better made technically
b) more entertaining
c) bigger impact on audiences and film industry as a whole

than the following (from above list):

#3 - Leon
#6 - The Princess Bride
#7 - The Big Lebowski / Pulp Fiction
#15 - 12 Monkeys
#17 - Batman Begins
#23 - Memento
#26 - Serenity
#30 - V For Vendetta
#32 - The Terminator
#35 - Apocalypse Now
#40 - The Godfather
#42 - The Goonies
#43 - American Psycho
#47 - The Usual Suspects
#48 - Rushmore
#50 - Withnail & I
#52 - Starship Troopers
#55 - Anchorman
#60 - American Beauty
#61 - Falling Down

so whilst I agree with those films inclusion on the list - before Empire? Not a chance!

There's "delusional Star Wars fanatic", and then there's that.
My god.
For the record: Star Wars licks the sweat off a monkey's sack, as I said a number of years ago.

Sherifu

Pigman II wrote: »

BTW, I'm declaring this film of the week #64. It deserves it.

Lol, good luck with that :pac:
Theboinkmaster's list made me laugh.

genericgoon

I think he may of just had a random number picker do that list.

Pigman II

Whilst (b) is purely a matter of opinion, wrt to (a) and (c) he is correct in every single movie mentioned (with the possible exception of The Godfather).

Slutmonkey57b

As to c) How many "Star Wars" type films were ever produced? Star Wars' biggest industry impact was in the realm of massive, overbearing, vertically integrated marketing and toy sales. Hardy a good thing. If you're going to argue it created the "massive science fiction fantasies" or "summer blockbuster" then your answers are "2001" and "Jaws".

Pigman II

Jaws and 2001 aren't on that sublist so what's your point?

Slutmonkey57b

Pigman II wrote: »

Jaws and 2001 aren't on that sublist so what's your point?

Trouble reading?
The original quote:
"more influential"
my point:
"only in terms of marketing and flogging toys, not in terms of 'other filmakers wanting to make similar films'."
my "get in and disprove the obvious fanboy response before they start" point:
"No it didn't create the two genres fanboys like to pretend it did so don't even bother saying it."

Not complicated to follow.

Pigman II

He said ESB was more influential than a selection of 20 movies taken from the MOTW set. He didn't say ESB was more influential than every movie in history, least of all Jaws or 2001 in particular. So for you to bring them up shows it is you who are clearly failing to follow the flow of the conversation.

So take the chip off your shoulder, go back to sleep and leave the conversation to people who want to talk about the merits of this particular movie rather than everything and anything that came before or after it.

Slutmonkey57b

Pigman II wrote: »

He said ESB was more influential than a selection of 20 movies taken from the MOTW set. He didn't say ESB was more influential than every movie in history, least of all Jaws or 2001 in particular. So for you to bring them up shows it is you who are clearly failing to follow the flow of the conversation.

So take the chip off your shoulder, go back to sleep and leave the conversation to people who want to talk about the merits of this particular movie rather than everything and anything that came before or after it.

Jesus. Even when I spell it out you still can't read what I wrote.
He said Empire was "more influential on film makers and audiences" than a selection of movies.

I made the point that SW's legacy has been marketing, marketing, and marketing - NOT a legacy of filmakers wanting to recreate, or follow on from Star Wars. It's very influential on a subset of film fans - people who think lightsabres make up for all the other film's flaws.

I brought up 2001 and Jaws specifically to disprove a standard justification of the SW films. Then I explained to you why I did it. And you're still not following it. Is it so difficult to follow that these are two separate counterpoints refuting the assertion of the original point that Empire is an influential film? Apparantly so.

The whole thread is about people who have a chip on their shoulder that a crap Star Wars film never got into FOTW, and are comparing it to a list of all the other films on the list. Yet you're having a go at me because I refute the most asinine fanboy cheerleading. If that's you're idea of "discussion" then congratulations - you're proving my point every time you post.

Pigman II

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Jesus. Even when I spell it out you still can't read what I wrote.
He said Empire was "more influential on film makers and audiences" than a selection of movies.

I made the point that SW's legacy has been marketing, marketing, and marketing - NOT a legacy of filmakers wanting to recreate, or follow on from Star Wars. It's very influential on a subset of film fans - people who think lightsabres make up for all the other film's flaws.

I brought up 2001 and Jaws specifically to disprove a standard justification of the SW films. Then I explained to you why I did it. And you're still not following it. Is it so difficult to follow that these are two separate counterpoints refuting the assertion of the original point that Empire is an influential film? Apparantly so.

The whole thread is about people who have a chip on their shoulder that a crap Star Wars film never got into FOTW, and are comparing it to a list of all the other films on the list. Yet you're having a go at me because I refute the most asinine fanboy cheerleading. If that's you're idea of "discussion" then congratulations - you're proving my point every time you post.

Boo hoo. Baby want a rattle?

We're not talking about "standard" opinion or reaction to SW. We're talking about ESB in relation to the film of the week selection. If you want to go off on a tangent then visit the SW board or write it on a new thread.

Slutmonkey57b

Pigman II wrote: »

Boo hoo. Baby want a rattle?

We're not talking about "standard" opinion or reaction to SW. We're talking about ESB in relation to the film of the week selection. If you want to go off on a tangent then visit the SW board or write it on a new thread.

What would I need a rattle for? I'm not the one going apesh!t over someone disagreeing with my opinion.

If you can't take someone disagreeing with the idea of Empire being worthy of film of the week, or any criticism of it at all, then.. eh.. don't read it? Blank it out of your mind and take another couple of pills. Lie down. Pretend it never happened. A brief glimpse of the real world entered the darkened caverns of your mind. There there.

Speaking of tangents, what is a "standard" opinion, anyway? Is that one that conforms exclusively to the view that Empire is the best film ever, and incidentally has lightsabres in it?

Pigman II

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

What would I need a rattle for? I'm not the one going apesh!t over someone disagreeing with my opinion.

Doesn't look that way.

Galvasean

I find it ironic that Star Wars fans signing in under multiple accounts to vote ESB as FotW ultimately brought about FotW being disbanded before ESB could become FotW (which I firmly believe it would have given a bit more time).

Sherifu

Galvasean wrote: »

I find it ironic that Star Wars fans signing in under multiple accounts to vote ESB as FotW ultimately brought about FotW being disbanded before ESB could become FotW (which I firmly believe it would have given a bit more time).

The same people voting the same film every week pissed me off. I think there was counter voting against it too so i'm guessing other posters didn't like the campaigns either. I did notice one account with 4 posts which were all on the FOTW thread. Sad that it brought a halt to FOTW.

Pigman II

In fairness the guy was lobbying for it for months and months and it wasn't getting any closer than when he'd started. I doubt it would have ever become FOTW purely as a running joke.

Karl Hungus

Galvasean wrote: »

I find it ironic that Star Wars fans signing in under multiple accounts to vote ESB as FotW ultimately brought about FotW being disbanded before ESB could become FotW (which I firmly believe it would have given a bit more time).

I'd like to set the record staright, and say that it was not Star Wars fans who brought down FotW, they only share a small part of the blame.

Galvasean

Galvasean wrote: »

There you go lads, discuss it to your hearts content because so help me God I'm doing my best to keep it off film of the week!

Pigman II wrote: »

In fairness the guy was lobbying for it for months and months and it wasn't getting any closer than when he'd started. I doubt it would have ever become FOTW purely as a running joke.

I would have relented and voted for ESB sooner or later.

Karl Hungus wrote: »

I'd like to set the record staright, and say that it was not Star Wars fans who brought down FotW, they only share a small part of the blame.

Ah well in that case I apologize for that earlier post. Still a terrible shame though.

guinnessdrinker

I feel sorry that ESB didn't get into Fotw because I thought it was better than some of the films that are already on the list and I gave it a vote a few weeks ago.

It's a pity about fotw though, i hope we can see it make a comeback again sometime.

grames_bond

Galvasean wrote: »

I would have relented and voted for ESB sooner or later.

no you wouldnt....you're evil like that!!

Theboinkmaster

I'd just like to say I never setup a second account to do some FOTW voting that'd be quite say IMO. Also I voted for ESB several times as it is simply one of my favourite films of all time.

As time went on and it didn't make the list I was more determined to keep voting for it as I believe there were many inferior films on the list.

And I stand by the list I posted:

#3 - Leon
#6 - The Princess Bride
#7 - The Big Lebowski / Pulp Fiction
#15 - 12 Monkeys
#17 - Batman Begins
#23 - Memento
#26 - Serenity
#30 - V For Vendetta
#32 - The Terminator
#35 - Apocalypse Now
#40 - The Godfather
#42 - The Goonies
#43 - American Psycho
#47 - The Usual Suspects
#48 - Rushmore
#50 - Withnail & I
#52 - Starship Troopers
#55 - Anchorman
#60 - American Beauty
#61 - Falling Down

ESB is a better film IMHO than those - and the pertinent part of that sentence is 'IMHO' as it simply is just an opinion and I'm sure everyone would disagree with all, if not some of that.

I just think that as it stands - to have films like serenity, leon, v for vendetta etc on the list and not have ESB damages the 'integrity' of the list and therefore somewhat makes a mockery of it IMHO

Sherifu

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

I just think that as it stands - to have films like serenity, leon, v for vendetta etc on the list and not have ESB damages the 'integrity' of the list and therefore somewhat makes a mockery of it IMHO

Having The Godfather on your list makes a mockery of it imo.

Galvasean

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

#3 - Leon
#6 - The Princess Bride
#7 - The Big Lebowski / Pulp Fiction
#15 - 12 Monkeys
#17 - Batman Begins
#23 - Memento
#26 - Serenity
#30 - V For Vendetta
#32 - The Terminator
#35 - Apocalypse Now
#40 - The Godfather
#42 - The Goonies
#43 - American Psycho
#47 - The Usual Suspects
#48 - Rushmore
#50 - Withnail & I
#52 - Starship Troopers
#55 - Anchorman
#60 - American Beauty
#61 - Falling Down

ESB is a better film IMHO than those - and the pertinent part of that sentence is 'IMHO' as it simply is just an opinion and I'm sure everyone would disagree with all, if not some of that.

I agree with you on the ones I put in bold, but the others are all considered classics of their respective genres. Again its all open to interpretation. ESB versus say memento is all a matter of taste in the end.

grames_bond

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

I'd just like to say I never setup a second account to do some FOTW voting that'd be quite say IMO. Also I voted for ESB several times as it is simply one of my favourite films of all time.

As time went on and it didn't make the list I was more determined to keep voting for it as I believe there were many inferior films on the list.

And I stand by the list I posted:

#3 - Leon
#6 - The Princess Bride
#7 - The Big Lebowski / Pulp Fiction
#15 - 12 Monkeys
#17 - Batman Begins
#23 - Memento
#26 - Serenity
#30 - V For Vendetta
#32 - The Terminator
#35 - Apocalypse Now
#40 - The Godfather
#42 - The Goonies
#43 -American Psycho
#47 - The Usual Suspects
#48 - Rushmore
#50 - Withnail & I
#52 - Starship Troopers
#55 - Anchorman
#60 - American Beauty
#61 - Falling Down

ESB is a better film IMHO than those - and the pertinent part of that sentence is 'IMHO' as it simply is just an opinion and I'm sure everyone would disagree with all, if not some of that.

while everyone is entitled to their opinion, you are wrong! you talk about integrity but having those 2 highlighted films on your list destroys the integrity of your arguement (you seem to like that word)

guinnessdrinker

Out of those two highlighted films Grames, yes The Godfather is a classic but Pulp Fiction in all fairness is nowhere near it.

Pigman II

That's a matter of opinion (personally I think it is a classic) but Pulp Fiction had a tremendous impact on people at the time.

Also I think we wouldn't have a lot of other subsequent movies/directors such as PT Anderson or Christopher Nolan without Pulp. I think Pulp was the movie that showed there was a big audience out there for movies that weren't formulaic.

Theboinkmaster

grames_bond wrote: »

while everyone is entitled to their opinion, you are wrong! you talk about integrity but having those 2 highlighted films on your list destroys the integrity of your arguement (you seem to like that word)

its all down to opinion - I do think ESB is better than the godfather but they're completely different films

I do however think the second godfather pisses all over the first and wouldn't put it ahead of ESB

And pulp fiction?! yes a great film but again I think ESB is much better but they're complete different films

However why are you nitpicking at that list?! you're missing the point - that on a general basis there are many many far inferior films to ESB already on the FOTW list - that's my point

guinnessdrinker

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

its all down to opinion - I do think ESB is better than the godfather but they're completely different films

I do however think the second godfather pisses all over the first and wouldn't put it ahead of ESB

And pulp fiction?! yes a great film but again I think ESB is much better but they're complete different films

However why are you nitpicking at that list?! you're missing the point - that on a general basis there are many many far inferior films to ESB already on the FOTW list - that's my point

I agree with most of what you said there except imo the first Godfather was a better (but not by much) film than the second one.

irishthump

Galvasean wrote: »

Exactly which of the movies so far do you consider inferior? Bar one or two the list is full of classics.
Of course film quality is highly open to debate/interpretation.


#1 - Oldboy
#2 - 12 Angry Men
#3 - Leon
#4 - This Is Spinal Tap
#5 - Dr. Strangelove
#6 - The Princess Bride
#7 - The Big Lebowski / Pulp Fiction
#8 - Fight Club
#9 - One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest
#10 - Sin City
#11 - Tremors
#12 - Battle Royale
#13 - Grave Of The Fireflies
#14 - John Carpenter's The Thing
#15 - 12 Monkeys
#16 - Brotherhood Of The Wolf
#17 - Batman Begins
#18 - Eternal Sunshine Of The Spotless Mind
#19 - The Seven Samurai
#20 - Pan's Labyrinth
#21 - City of God (Cidade De Deus)
#22 - American History X
#23 - Memento
#24 - Audition
#25 - Die Hard
#26 - Serenity
#27 - The Prestige
#28 - Aliens
#29 - The Good, The Bad and The Ugly
#30 - V For Vendetta
#31 - Blade Runner
#32 - The Terminator
#33 - Requiem For A Dream
#34 - The Shawshank Redemption
#35 - Apocalypse Now
#36 - Ring (リング)
#37 - Goodfellas
#38 - 2001: A Space Odyssey
#39 - Casablanca
#40 - The Godfather
#41 - Save The Green Planet
#42 - The Goonies
#43 - American Psycho
#44 - To Kill A Mockingbird
#45 - Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
#46 - Zatoichi
#47 - The Usual Suspects
#48 - Rushmore
#49 - Heat
#50 - Withnail & I
#51 - Monty Python's Life Of Brian
#52 - Starship Troopers
#53 - Mulholland Drive
#54 - Psycho
#55 - Anchorman
#56 - The Seventh Seal
#57 - Alien
#58 - Raiders Of The Lost Ark
#59 - Point Break
#60 - American Beauty
#61 - Falling Down

Eh, excuse me..... could somebody tell me the criteria for selecting the FOTW?!!

When I see films like:
Point Break
Starship Troopers
The Prestige
Serenity
Tremours
The Goonies (THE FU*KING GOONIES FOR CHRISSAKES!)

These movies barely hawl themselves above the waterline, quality-wise. Never mind being "classics of the genre".

Wow! Something just flew out the window..... was it somebody's credibilty?:rolleyes: