Firearms Officers

Heckler

Five times now i've tried to contact my FO with regards to setting up a meeting to submit an application for a cert (my first. for a .22). Everytime its a case of "he is working but not in the station at the moment".

I leave my name, contact numbers and the reason I'm ringing and everytime get an assurance he'll ring me back. So far nothing.

I've heard through different people who shoot that a lot of Garda get the job of FO foisted on them and they don't like dealing with the applications. Don't know if this is the case with my FO.

I understand he has other duties and is busy but is a quick phone call too much to ask for ?

Outside of camping next to the station to catch him when he comes in any suggestions as to what I should do ? Maybe this is the usual hoops people have to jump through I don't know.

Any thoughts or experiences ?

IRLConor

Ask what shift he's working on next (the Garda answering the phone in my local station volunteered this information unprompted ) and call near the start of the shift when he's likely to be in.

ironsight

Dont feel to bad Heckler,

My local FO was able to duck and dive for several months before I managed to nail him down for a few minutes to process the application, then his excuse was he didnt have an application form, lucky for me I had one !

chem

Hi Heckler,

Agros have good tents for sale

Don`t feel like its anything personal, we all have been in your shoes:rolleyes:

I found it best to with my local to become a bit of a pest. I just kept ringing the satation asking for him. If it comes to it find out what time his shift starts and be in the station when he gets there:D;)

rrpc

The Gardai are continually understaffed. Anyone who's acting as FO is usually doing it in addition to lots of other things and aren't considered to be full time in the post because of the workload in other areas.

You have to remember that some of them will have the night shift and you wouldn't appreciate a phone call at 3am would you?

The best approach is as IRLConor suggests and find out what shift he's on and either phone or call in at the time that the shift starts. Do it within five minutes of the shift start because he could be literally into the station and straight out on a call or patrol.

There's also a pathological hatred of paperwork to overcome, so be patient

foxshooter243

Heckler wrote: »

Five times now i've tried to contact my FO with regards to setting up a meeting to submit an application for a cert (my first. for a .22). Everytime its a case of "he is working but not in the station at the moment".

I leave my name, contact numbers and the reason I'm ringing and everytime get an assurance he'll ring me back. So far nothing.

I've heard through different people who shoot that a lot of Garda get the job of FO foisted on them and they don't like dealing with the applications. Don't know if this is the case with my FO.

I understand he has other duties and is busy but is a quick phone call too much to ask for ?

Outside of camping next to the station to catch him when he comes in any suggestions as to what I should do ? Maybe this is the usual hoops people have to jump through I don't know.

Any thoughts or experiences ?

used to get the same runaround myself ,so I started to put everything together in a large A4 envelope along with a long winded letter concerning my application and hand it in to the station adressed to the superintendant, hey presto ! he was on the phone to me! { the fo }
The super delegates let him do his job..

flanum

+1 for calling round to the station when he starts his shift. be polite. it also gives the advantage of the garda meetin u face to face and seeing ur not a psycho. engage in small talk while hes fillin out the form.. weather/football etc. usually helps.

meathshooter

Any garda can fill out the form pc20 ,get who ever is on duty at the public desk to fill it in

Heckler

Thanks for the advice lads.

I rang one day and was told he was starting a night shift at 10 the following night. I rang at 10.20 only to be automatically rerouted to a larger station in town. Apparantly the station where the FO is based is closes every night at 10 :rolleyes:

I'll ring a few times again next week and see how it goes. I have everything ready, covering letter, bills of sale, gunsafe invoices, photos of the rifle and spec sheets etc so maybe if I get nowhere I'll post them off to the Superintendent like foxshooter243 did.

I guess I'm just eager now to get the application in and start the wait for a yay or nay on the cert. Theres no impact on the shooting itself as I can use club rifles at the moment. Just gonna have to be patient (and persistant !) I reckon.

Mellor

Im in the other extreame. The FO was great, gave me the form, rang me back, told me what to get from the gun club, and now im waiting 3 weeks for the gun club to give me a letter

Heckler

Mellor wrote: »

Im in the other extreame. The FO was great, gave me the form, rang me back, told me what to get from the gun club, and now im waiting 3 weeks for the gun club to give me a letter

What exactly is your FO looking for from the gun club ? I just included a photocopy of my membership card with contact details of the club secretary and one of the RO's. I'll bring my original membership card to any meeting with my FO as well. Are they looking for a character assessment from the club or something ?

Mellor

Heckler wrote: »

What exactly is your FO looking for from the gun club ? I just included a photocopy of my membership card with contact details of the club secretary and one of the RO's. I'll bring my original membership card to any meeting with my FO as well. Are they looking for a character assessment from the club or something ?

I don't have a membership card as I haven't paid for this year. Im approved for membership without problem, but as I might not get the gun for a few months i'll likely wont be ready until next season (so this way was meant to be quicker and cheaper) . So I need a letter to say i'm approved for the club.

Jonty

Heckler wrote: »

Thanks for the advice lads.

I'll ring a few times again next week and see how it goes. I have everything ready, covering letter, bills of sale, gunsafe invoices, photos of the rifle and spec sheets etc so maybe if I get nowhere I'll post them off to the Superintendent like foxshooter243 did.

I believe that just cover letter, safe invoice and firearm bill of sale are all you require. When dealing with a garda who knows f all about firearms, (I know they're not all dumb) I find it best to volunteer as little information as possible. Spec sheets and pictures might make him doubtful of your application, ie a synthetic stock and heavy barrel .22lr to a garda with a limited knowlegde of firearms might consider it a 1000yd rifle based on these merits. Please note that the garda cannot refuse your application at the front desk.

All I'm saying is all you need is on your bill of sale. If its a .22 its a .22 end of story.

Mellor

There are alot of people who would disagree with you on spec sheets Jonty.
I imagine they can cerainly help speed up the process

Heckler

Jonty wrote: »

Heckler wrote: »

Thanks for the advice lads.

I'll ring a few times again next week and see how it goes. I have everything ready, covering letter, bills of sale, gunsafe invoices, photos of the rifle and spec sheets etc so maybe if I get nowhere I'll post them off to the Superintendent like foxshooter243 did.

I believe that just cover letter, safe invoice and firearm bill of sale are all you require. When dealing with a garda who knows f all about firearms, (I know they're not all dumb) I find it best to volunteer as little information as possible. Spec sheets and pictures might make him doubtful of your application, ie a synthetic stock and heavy barrel .22lr to a garda with a limited knowlegde of firearms might consider it a 1000yd rifle based on these merits. Please note that the garda cannot refuse your application at the front desk.

All I'm saying is all you need is on your bill of sale. If its a .22 its a .22 end of story.

I'm just going on the advice of my chief RO who told me to give them as much information as possible so that they have less to come back to me with. I figure most FO's have seen a few applications in their time and know what a .22 is and what it can and can't do. Then again I'm learning something new about the whole process everyday so nothing would suprise me now.

meathstevie

I can't say anything negative about our local sergeant. When I applied for my first shotgun we had a little chat and at the end he more or less said he'd have the cert in a couple of weeks. This was in May. A week or two later he rang me and asked if I didn't want to hang on till the first of August instead of paying for a full year with only a couple of weeks left. I told him I wasn't too bothered about that and the reply was : "Well come and get your cert so...". From applying to paperwork in hand took about two and a half to three weeks.

Afterwards I applied for a rifle and a second shotgun, just filled in the paperwork with a cover letter and the slip from the gun dealer.

The only time I had a bit of trouble was with the additional shotgun. I forgot to fill in the yellow form . Once I realised my mistake I rang the station, fortunatly the skipper was in and 5 minits on the PC later the cert was on the way. From settling my little booboo to getting the cert : 2 days for the cert to arrive in the post.

Later on I traded one the shotguns for a different one the only hard part was getting hold of the man ( over the Christmas season ). I ended up leaving the original in the station together with the slip from the dealer with a litlle note asking to modify. I went of on a two week holiday and when I came back the modified cert was lying on the doormat in the hall.

We're probably quite fortunate around here with the guys in the local station but I can't say a bad thing about them.

rrpc

You're right to say so Stevie, too often the negative stories get an airing and the positive ones get lost.

My experience has been very like yours, and it goes back many years and over a couple of districts with nothing but helpful and friendly attitudes experienced wherever I went.

IDon'tKnow!

The FO in my local station is very helpful. With my first cert for a .22 when I got it into the FO hands 1 was waiting 2 weeks to the day for the cert. I got the cert on the first of August.

But hard bit was the 4 weeks I was running around trying to get the FO in a station that only opens for 2 hours a day(and most of the time its closed for these 2 hours).

No else in the station would take the paperwork off me and give it to him, so had to keep trying to get him. And other people in my area told me not to give paperwork to anyone else as the will only make a mess of it.

It was the same for my shotgun, but spent 2 weeks trying to get the FO. He has the paper work now a week so hope to have the cert just after the easter weekend.

Bananaman

Roll a couple of those things up into one.

Draft a letter stating what you are asking for and listing what you are providing with it. Copy of Bill of Sale, etc. If you have the name of the FO then make the letter out to him/her. Put the letter and the attachments in the envelope and head to the station. Address it to the FO, if possible, otherwise the station itslef. Make sure and put all you contact details on it.Pint out that you can be contacted at any time he help expedite the process.

Try to be in the station for the shift change - if you get the FO, great, if not ask the Garda on the desk to fill out your forms. If they can't - they might have no idea where they are or how - then give them the envelope and ask for a receipt to show when/who you gave it to.

That way - one way or another your application process has started.
As with all of us - they hate paperwork - but once you hand in a letter and get a receipt for it there is paperwork and it must be dealt with.

And of course - be very patient. This will not happen quickly - it might but it is rare.

B'Man

Heckler

To go off on a wee tangent. Just wondering if anyone has been refused a FA cert and on what grounds. I believe these days you have to get an answer within 3 months and if you're refused you have to get a good reason not just a "don't like the look of him" type reason. So, anyone ?

thehair

hello everbody my fire arms officer all he wanted was NARGC MEMBERSHIP
and bill of sale from firearm dealer and sign the Pc20 application form
got firearms cert for burno .22 rinfire long rifle within two weeks
i am in co mayo the garda in charge know all about firearms
and he is on the ball . steve:D

IDon'tKnow!

Heckler wrote: »

To go off on a wee tangent. Just wondering if anyone has been refused a FA cert and on what grounds. I believe these days you have to get an answer within 3 months and if you're refused you have to get a good reason not just a "don't like the look of him" type reason. So, anyone ?

A friend of mine was refused a FAC for a .308 he was a member of Midlands at the time.

Don't know why he got refused, but was told at the time if he applied for a .223 he could have that. So he now has a .223.

thehair

Heckler wrote: »

Five times now i've tried to contact my FO with regards to setting up a meeting to submit an application for a cert (my first. for a .22). Everytime its a case of "he is working but not in the station at the moment".

I leave my name, contact numbers and the reason I'm ringing and everytime get an assurance he'll ring me back. So far nothing.

I've heard through different people who shoot that a lot of Garda get the job of FO foisted on them and they don't like dealing with the applications. Don't know if this is the case with my FO.

I understand he has other duties and is busy but is a quick phone call too much to ask for ?

Outside of camping next to the station to catch him when he comes in any suggestions as to what I should do ? Maybe this is the usual hoops people have to jump through I don't know.

Any thoughts or experiences ?

talk to local garda

hi i have went down to the local garda ask first as a gesture of respect.
told me join local club and he told me no problin to get .22 rinfire
do not ask for safe or alarm he knows me 7 years

Heckler

Update (or rather no update)

Thought I'd keep the thread alive so others applying for a cert could follow the progress although I know all processes are different for everyone.

Rang the FO's direct line on Wednesday morning, no answer. Rang back a few hours later. Got a reply from someone saying he was out till the day shift Friday. Left my name, number and reason for ringing again. Fingers crossed but not holding my breath that he'll ring back. Just wondering if they leave you hanging a while and see if you are persistant to be sure you are serious.

I'm regretting leaving my reason for ringing the first time round. Maybe if I had just left my name and number he'd have gotten back to me. Anyways I'll see how it goes.

foxshooter243

thehair wrote: »

talk to local garda

hi i have went down to the local garda ask first as a gesture of respect.
told me join local club and he told me no problin to get .22 rinfire
do not ask for safe or alarm he knows me 7 years

I have a problem with " the gesture of respect" mentality, if your bona fide in your intentions and meet the requirements of the firearms act, why the need to get down on bended knee to pay homage first, genuine law abiding people with bona fide intentions as regards shooting are quite entitled to their licence

Heckler

foxshooter243 wrote: »

I have a problem with " the gesture of respect" mentality, if your bona fide in your intentions and meet the requirements of the firearms act, why the need to get down on bended knee to pay homage first, genuine law abiding people with bona fide intentions as regards shooting are quite entitled to their licence

I agree. While I think your entitled to your licence once you meet the criteria I think you should be able to APPLY for one with as little fuss as you might apply for a driving licence (and how many more people are killed and maimed by cars every year as opposed to by legally held firearms ? Not even mentioning that anyone can get behind the wheel of a ton of metal moving at 100kph without any test or scrutiny whatsoever. Although I did just mention it:p). I realise that people can wait up to a year to get their driving test but at least the paperwork can be submitted on the same day you decide to apply if you wish and is processed pretty quickly. The delay is in numbers applying which I don't think is the case with Firearms Cert applications.

IRLConor

foxshooter243 wrote: »

I have a problem with " the gesture of respect" mentality, if your bona fide in your intentions and meet the requirements of the firearms act, why the need to get down on bended knee to pay homage first, genuine law abiding people with bona fide intentions as regards shooting are quite entitled to their licence

You shouldn't have to do it. On the other hand, if it can make things easier and helps you get your license quicker then it's worth doing.

For a Garda to decide that you "can be permitted to possess, use and carry the firearm and ammunition without danger to the public safety or security or the peace" they're going to have to chat to you. If they've seen you before you sit down to fill in the form then they're going to be more confident about approving you.

I think it's less of a "gesture of respect" and more a case of trying to help the Gardai to come to the realisation that you deserve the license.

foxshooter243

IRLConor wrote: »

You shouldn't have to do it. On the other hand, if it can make things easier and helps you get your license quicker then it's worth doing.

For a Garda to decide that you "can be permitted to possess, use and carry the firearm and ammunition without danger to the public safety or security or the peace" they're going to have to chat to you. If they've seen you before you sit down to fill in the form then they're going to be more confident about approving you.

I think it's less of a "gesture of respect" and more a case of trying to help the Gardai to come to the realisation that you deserve the license.

its not the gardai who decides if you "deserve" the licence, its your own
behaviour which is decided by you, that determines if you fulfill the requirements of the act. The gardai are very well aware of the bad apples in their district, and they dont have the neccesary skills to physcholgically
evaluate someone in a 5 minute conversation anyway, so the minute you walk into a garda station to make an application its your previous behaviour which is the factor-nothing else,if you fulfill the requirements its your entitlement ,the same as the next guy.

IRLConor

foxshooter243 wrote: »

its not the gardai who decides if you "deserve" the licence, its your own
behaviour which is decided by you, that determines if you fulfill the requirements of the act. The gardai are very well aware of the bad apples in their district, and they dont have the neccesary skills to physcholgically
evaluate someone in a 5 minute conversation anyway, so the minute you walk into a garda station to make an application its your previous behaviour which is the factor-nothing else,if you fulfill the requirements its your entitlement ,the same as the next guy.

Section 4 (2) of the Firearms Act gives a list of conditions that the issuing person has to be satisfied with before giving you a license. There's no requirement that they base their decision solely on your previous behaviour. In fact, Section 4 (1) says:

An issuing person shall not grant a firearm certificate unless he or she is satisfied that the applicant complies with the conditions referred to in subsection (2) and will continue to comply with them during the currency of the certificate

(emphasis mine)

So they are required to judge your future behaviour and they will use their time meeting you to form that judgement.

thehair

talk to local garda

hi i have went down to the local garda ask first as a gesture of respect.
told me join local club and he told me no problin to get .22 rinfire
do not ask for safe or alarm he knows me 7 years

when i stared to post on the shooting boards asking what to do and what
rifle to get i was told see the post above that what i was told and it worked.
so if it is not broke well dont fix it :)lol

foxshooter243

IRLConor wrote: »

Section 4 (2) of the Firearms Act gives a list of conditions that the issuing person has to be satisfied with before giving you a license. There's no requirement that they base their decision solely on your previous behaviour. In fact, Section 4 (1) says:



(emphasis mine)

So they are required to judge your future behaviour and they will use their time meeting you to form that judgement.

so now they can predict the future

IRLConor

foxshooter243 wrote: »

so now they can predict the future

No, but a person who comes in and acts like a nutter but has a perfect past history can, will and should be refused a license.

The Gardai can't predict the future but the legislation requires them to do their best.

foxshooter243

IRLConor wrote: »

No, but a person who comes in and acts like a nutter but has a perfect past history can, will and should be refused a license.

The Gardai can't predict the future but the legislation requires them to do their best.

The only definitive proof of a persons suitability for firearms ownership
is their past history-and if you think its based around some 5 minute interview to predict your future actions your only fooling yourself.

IRLConor

foxshooter243 wrote: »

The only definitive proof of a persons suitability for firearms ownership
is their past history-and if you think its based around some 5 minute interview to predict your future actions your only fooling yourself.

And what do they do for people who are not known to the local Gardai and have absolutely no record? (Like me, for example.) What if someone like that came in and in the "5 minute interview" gave the impression that they'd be a danger to the general public or that they weren't being honest about their application? Do you think that they'd be given a license? Do you think they should be given a license?

Sparks

To be fair conor, inside of a five minute chat, the garda's going to know you've been in DURC for years, have been shooting competitively at a national level for years, have been training people to shoot safely for years, he'll know where you're living (and he'll know if the area's a rough one), he'll know where you plan to store it (and by knowing that, he'll know you thought about it, which means you think about the firearm as something to be treated carefully rather than as a toy), he'll know what you want to use it for (and you'd be surprised how much weight the olympics tends to have with the local super), and if he can get past that thing you call a sense of humour, you'll be fine

foxshooter243

IRLConor wrote: »

And what do they do for people who are not known to the local Gardai and have absolutely no record? (Like me, for example.) What if someone like that came in and in the "5 minute interview" gave the impression that they'd be a danger to the general public or that they weren't being honest about their application? Do you think that they'd be given a license? Do you think they should be given a license?

well i know for a fact that discreet enquiries are made in my area if the guards are unaware of a persons past history, but the fact that you have never came under their notice would speak volumes, and as for someone giving the wrong impression whilst talking to a guard, it could also be argued that someone with sinister intention could come in and give a good impression-the only concrete proof of a persons stability and fitness is
from their past history there is nothing else to asses them on-a chat about your reasons for wanting a firearm is only to check if your a bona fide shooter ,where you plan to use it etc. ive never even been asked questions in my local station and my last 2 permits were left at the front desk adressed to the super,i only called back to sign the applications when asked to do so, no talk or chat or phsycological evaluation:D

IRLConor

Sparks wrote: »

To be fair conor, inside of a five minute chat, the garda's going to know you've been in DURC for years, have been shooting competitively at a national level for years, have been training people to shoot safely for years, he'll know where you're living (and he'll know if the area's a rough one), he'll know where you plan to store it (and by knowing that, he'll know you thought about it, which means you think about the firearm as something to be treated carefully rather than as a toy), he'll know what you want to use it for (and you'd be surprised how much weight the olympics tends to have with the local super),

The point I was trying to make was that what you say and do in the station with the Gardai and their impression of you can be taken into account when you're applying for a license. Being on good terms with the Gardai beforehand will make things easier and dropping in to have a chat with them before you apply might make them more amenable to granting you a license, particularly if you intend on applying for something they would otherwise be wary of.

Sparks wrote: »

and if he can get past that thing you call a sense of humour, you'll be fine

IRLConor

foxshooter243 wrote: »

as for someone giving the wrong impression whilst talking to a guard, it could also be argued that someone with sinister intention could come in and give a good impression

Yes, but anyone (legit or not) who acts like they have a sinister intention when applying for a firearms license should be investigated further.

foxshooter243 wrote: »

the only concrete proof of a persons stability and fitness is from their past history

They don't need concrete proof of anything to refuse you a license. They just need to form an opinion that you're not suitable.

foxshooter243

IRLConor wrote: »

Yes, but anyone (legit or not) who acts like they have a sinister intention when applying for a firearms license should be investigated further.
i said they may have a sinister intention but act completley normal when talking to the FO


They don't need concrete proof of anything to refuse you a license. They just need to form an opinion that you're not suitable.

They need enough proof that would hold up under a court of law if some one decides to appeal , they also need to supply that in writing.

IRLConor

foxshooter243 wrote: »

i said they may have a sinister intention but act completley normal when talking to the FO

I know, I didn't miss that. Perhaps I should have added that you can't defend against that problem but you can decide to investigate further/refuse the application if the person seems dodgy even if they have a squeaky clean record.

foxshooter243 wrote: »

They need enough proof that would hold up under a court of law if some one decides to appeal , they also need to supply that in writing.

They can supply their opinion in writing. Unless I very much misunderstand the Firearms Act all a Super would have to do is stand up in court and say something to the effect of "I refused the certificate because in my opinion the user could not be permitted to possess, use or carry the firearm and ammunition without danger to the public safety or security or the peace. I based my opinion on the fact that the person appeared to be angry and impatient and in my experience angry and impatient people are not safe firearms users. My opinion prevented me from issuing the firearms certificate subject to sections 4 (1) and 4 (2) (b) of the Firearms Act."

I don't know of anything in the Firearms Act(s) which requires the "issuing person" to base their opinions on verifiable facts.

meathstevie

Folks, I'd be the last one to start grovelling or genuflecting for anyone but when push comes to shove you have to get some paperwork from the station anyway so it's probably not a bad idea to go in and pick up a form and say hello to the FO if you have a chance. He/she might well be able to give you some informal advice in relation to do's and don'ts in the district.

The example of the Super in Kilkenny with his .223 hang up springs to mind. If you're in that chaps district and you have a word with the local FO before you even bring in any paperwork you probably would have been told that you're wasting your time applying for a .223 and you could have had a swift or a .222 sitting in your safe by the time it took for your .223 application to come back with a njet.

foxshooter243

IRLConor wrote: »

I know, I didn't miss that. Perhaps I should have added that you can't defend against that problem but you can decide to investigate further/refuse the application if the person seems dodgy even if they have a squeaky clean record.



They can supply their opinion in writing. Unless I very much misunderstand the Firearms Act all a Super would have to do is stand up in court and say something to the effect of "I refused the certificate because in my opinion the user could not be permitted to possess, use or carry the firearm and ammunition without danger to the public safety or security or the peace. I based my opinion on the fact that the person appeared to be angry and impatient and in my experience angry and impatient people are not safe firearms users. My opinion prevented me from issuing the firearms certificate subject to sections 4 (1) and 4 (2) (b) of the Firearms Act."

I don't know of anything in the Firearms Act(s) which requires the "issuing person" to base their opinions on verifiable facts.

so what your saying is the "issuing person" can base their reason upon supposition..really questionable connor dont you think..supposition is what fuelled the Mc Carthy witch hunts in the 50 s:cool:

IRLConor

foxshooter243 wrote: »

so what your saying is the "issuing person" can base their reason upon supposition.

That's my reading of the Act. Then again, I'm not a Garda, a solicitor, a barrister or a judge so I don't know how it would play out once it hit a court.

Think of the Super in Kilkenny. Does he have hard evidence that a .223 is more of a risk to public safety than a .220 Swift or is it just his opinion based on supposition?

foxshooter243 wrote: »

really questionable connor dont you think

Definitely questionable. Maybe the Act should be worded differently to require hard evidence. Then again there's a trade-off, if you can only base a refusal on the past history of a person (using only hard evidence) then a lot of people who really shouldn't ever get a license become eligible.

foxshooter243

IRLConor wrote: »

That's my reading of the Act. Then again, I'm not a Garda, a solicitor, a barrister or a judge so I don't know how it would play out once it hit a court.

Think of the Super in Kilkenny. Does he have hard evidence that a .223 is more of a risk to public safety than a .220 Swift or is it just his opinion based on supposition?



Definitely questionable. Maybe the Act should be worded differently to require hard evidence. Then again there's a trade-off, if you can only base a refusal on the past history of a person (using only hard evidence) then a lot of people who really shouldn't ever get a license become eligible.

Connor twice in your posts you have used the word "investigate" regarding
firearms applications ,this is what im saying its past history that offers up the best evidence of a persons character as this is the only " hard evidence" they have to go on, and as the garda are only human they do make mistakes, they sometimes grant licences to people who are not eligible..the system is not foolproof..

IRLConor

foxshooter243 wrote: »

Connor twice in your posts you have used the word "investigate" regarding firearms applications ,this is what im saying its past history that offers up the best evidence of a persons character as this is the only " hard evidence" they have to go on, and as the garda are only human they do make mistakes, they sometimes grant licences to people who are not eligible..the system is not foolproof..

So if you were a Super/FAO and someone with a clean record came in and was covered in white supremacist tattoos, mentioned that he hated black people and then applied for a centre-fire pistol you'd say "well, I have no hard evidence that he's a nutter and shouldn't have a gun so I should just approve the application".

What would happen if you replaced that person with someone who was talking to himself but was otherwise normal? Would you approve the application or would you get his consent to make enquiries about his health before deciding?

The whole point of turning up and having a chat with the Gardai before applying is to give them a nice warm fuzzy feeling that you're a sane, sober, friendly person.

Oh, and my name is Conor not Connor. :pac:n

foxshooter243

IRLConor wrote: »

So if you were a Super/FAO and someone with a clean record came in and was covered in white supremacist tattoos, mentioned that he hated black people and then applied for a centre-fire pistol you'd say "well, I have no hard evidence that he's a nutter and shouldn't have a gun so I should just approve the application".

What would happen if you replaced that person with someone who was talking to himself but was otherwise normal? Would you approve the application or would you get his consent to make enquiries about his health before deciding?

The whole point of turning up and having a chat with the Gardai before applying is to give them a nice warm fuzzy feeling that you're a sane, sober, friendly person.

Oh, and my name is Conor not Connor. :pac:n

apologies conor not connor . as for your hypothetical kkk person this is not alabama in the fiftys , and as regards your second hypothetical point
you still suggest making enquiries which involves previous history so ....doh homer sorry conor , and as regarding the nice warm fuzzy feeling ...the guards in donegal got that from the morris tribunal ,but it was in their arse not their stomach :D:D

IRLConor

foxshooter243 wrote: »

apologies conor not connor . as for your hypothetical kkk person this is not alabama in the fiftys

You're impossible! :rolleyes: I picked a deliberately unusual character to illustrate my point (that past history is not the only thing the Gardai will take into account). The details are unimportant. If you want, replace that hypothetical character with someone who turns up looking and acting like a scumbag (and yet who still has a clean record).

I'm not suggesting people should go in and kiss the arses of the Gardai when making an application, just that they turn up, be polite and be friendly. At the end of the day it costs you nothing and it could make your life easier. Anyone too proud to do that needs their head examined IMHO.

Our man in Havana

If you want, replace that hypothetical character with someone who turns up looking and acting like a scumbag (and yet who still has a clean record).

Sadly these types do get their FAC applications granted.

foxshooter243

IRLConor wrote: »

You're impossible! :rolleyes: I picked a deliberately unusual character to illustrate my point (that past history is not the only thing the Gardai will take into account). The details are unimportant. If you want, replace that hypothetical character with someone who turns up looking and acting like a scumbag (and yet who still has a clean record).

I'm not suggesting people should go in and kiss the arses of the Gardai when making an application, just that they turn up, be polite and be friendly. At the end of the day it costs you nothing and it could make your life easier. Anyone too proud to do that needs their head examined IMHO.

As I said in my first post on this thread " i have a problem with the gesture of respect mentality" that was promoted in the thread, why
should anyone who is a genuine law abiding person with a clean record think that they would have to run down to the garda station to "butter up" the fo in the first place,if you are a genuine law abiding person with bona fide intentions the fo will give you your licence no problem..that has been my experience , respect is a quality that has to be earned, if it hasnt been earned then "grovelling" springs to mind, and yes im proud to say im too proud for that. statistics prove that the garda are quite adept at weighing people up in dispensing firearms certs.

It wasn't me!

I would have a problem with people being judged on the basis of stuff like tattoos. I mean, it's only a very small and delicate step away from judging someone based on their clothing or having long hair or a shaved head or whatever, which is obviously fundamentally wrong.

In the example given, the guy should be judged based on his racist monologue, not his tattoos, as tattoos can have many, many meanings, the swastika for instance being a pagan symbol for thousands of years before the 1930's. Just a bit of personal pedantry, but I think it's important to clear up what a guard should and should not be able to use to judge the person, and what makes sense to use. Clothing, hairstyle, body art should all be left out, in my opinion.

foxshooter243

It wasn't me! wrote: »

I would have a problem with people being judged on the basis of stuff like tattoos. I mean, it's only a very small and delicate step away from judging someone based on their clothing or having long hair or a shaved head or whatever, which is obviously fundamentally wrong.

In the example given, the guy should be judged based on his racist monologue, not his tattoos, as tattoos can have many, many meanings, the swastika for instance being a pagan symbol for thousands of years before the 1930's. Just a bit of personal pedantry, but I think it's important to clear up what a guard should and should not be able to use to judge the person, and what makes sense to use. Clothing, hairstyle, body art should all be left out, in my opinion.

I second that.:D