What are your opinions on this?

PaulBrewer

Chaps,

This is what I was bursting to tell you about a couple of weeks ago -

http://www.soundonsound.com/news?NewsID=9889

Any thoughts?

ogy

looks pretty sweet, i definitely think attempts like this to combine the advantages of in the box and out of the box systems are the way forward. get in there SSL!:)

dav nagle

Really like the look of it, would certainly look very nice in any studio. So many desks these days look pants but this one has a nice look to it.:)

PaulBrewer

Niall - Dahlia wrote: »

Who is this aimed at? It's obviously not aimed at the home studio at that price...but even for a project studio, the lack of pre's, channel EQ, converters...you're going to need a decent outboard collection to make this a worthwhile purchase. I don't see it being of interest to any large studios that already have analogue consoles...so I guess it's aimed at small studios?

I like the Xrack integration and the digital patchbay, the routing capabilities look like it really could be the central hub of a studio. Latency on the patchay? Did you get a hands-on Paul? How did it sound?

And I know it should be the last on the list of priorities, but I think it looks very plastic! But maybe that's just the pics not doing it justice. Just doesn't look like an impressive centerpiece of a studio, which is what it's trying to be.

Their idea is that it's for the likes of Salt! You guys have a nice collection of Highest Quality outboard that you use, Mic Pres, Eq,Comps, A2D, D2A etc. Instead of getting a console doubling up on this it's giving you the things you don't have... i.e Summing (32 Chans), Auxes, Talback, Monitor control etc. It can also control up to 4 Daws simultaneously so you can run Protools and Reason together for example, switching seamlessly.
The Matrix could conceivably replace a patchbay, (0 latency by the way) further integrating your gear.

It has the same basic circuitry as the Duality, AWS and X-Rack so sound right proper!

It has a set of dedicated buttons above the DAW control that you can preset with your Macros (2 or 3 button presses together) to speed up workflow.

It also has practical cool stuff like a (switchable!) button that Talkback come on when playback stops ........ and an IPod in socket!

In real life I though it looked fantastic, Argosy are building a console for it to give it more 'girth' too.

I think they're onto something great!

jtsuited

i can not see how anyone would justify that type of money on something like this. unless they wanted to feel like a big shot engineer from yesteryear while working inside a computer.
although they'd actually need to be a fairly big shot engineer to splash out that type of cash. i could understand if this was priced realistically for the budget/project studio market, but the price (~£15k sterling) is ridiculous.

the price of control surfaces are an absolute joke. now i know this can be used as a patchbay and a summing mixer too, but it seems like a hugely impractical purchase. Unless you've got a load of quality outboard. in which case, you probably have a much bigger desk already up to the task.
i honestly don't know what they're thinking.

slightly off-topic/on-topic- i was given a demo of the big euphonix system a while ago and was thoroughly unimpressed. control surfaces seem to be going down the road of trying to make the engineer/producer look like what they are doing is something that can only be done in a plush expensive studio.
when in reality most of the tasks in the digital age are done on software available to anyone (for relatively cheap), and on hardware (ie a computer) most people can afford to buy (if they don't have one already, which most people do).

companies like SSL and the others really seem to be coming across as squeezing the last bit of cash they can out of a market they really don't have a chance in. although they have shown their willingness to adapt with the duende etc.

i know this might seem like a bit of a rant, but people really need to move on from the analogue emulation days. if you are sitting at a huge controller that looks really great it makes no difference to the end product than if you were using a nintendo controller as your DAW control surface.
obviously given the choice, i would love to be able to mix out of the box on a big neve or ssl, but for the difference it makes to the final product, the money needed is in no way justifiable.
both in theory and in practice, these types of products are not going to make any difference to the quality of your audio. that relies on one or two simple things, namely good converters and good work practices. everything else after that is up to the algorithms in the software used.

trackmixstudio

It is going to be the perfect solution for a lot of people. If you have outboard compressors and eqs, reverbs etc and just want a summing mixer, patchbay and midi controller it would be ideal, but for the same(ish) money you can get a Yamaha DM2000 which is a complete package with eqs, dynamics, 8 fx processors, full surround mixing capability. I know which I would take, especially since I am all digital in/out with an RME Digiface. I would even prefer an 02r96 to the SSL!.
With the SSL I can see a lot of people looking at it then realizing that they need apogee (or equivalent) converters to make it worthwhile and will then also end up buying outboard gear to patch in that they wouldn't have bought before spending loads of money on the extras needed to make it work. (bet that bit brought a smile to Paul's face!)

jtsuited

trackmixstudio wrote: »

It is going to be the perfect solution for a lot of people. If you have outboard compressors and eqs, reverbs etc and just want a summing mixer, patchbay and midi controller it would be ideal, but for the same(ish) money you can get a Yamaha DM2000 which is a complete package with eqs, dynamics, 8 fx processors, full surround mixing capability. I know which I would take, especially since I am all digital in/out with an RME Digiface. I would even prefer an 02r96 to the SSL!.
With the SSL I can see a lot of people looking at it then realizing that they need apogee (or equivalent) converters to make it worthwhile and will then also end up buying outboard gear to patch in that they wouldn't have bought before spending loads of money on the extras needed to make it work. (bet that bit brought a smile to Paul's face!)

+1 on the dm2000. I am personally a big fan of that mixer.

if you had enough outboard to insert on 16 channels of a mix, surely you'd already have a desk capable of doing so. or maybe i'm missing something?

just to point out, i would not have any problem with getting one of these if it didn't work out at the same price (or in reality a lot more as you'll have to buy a load of extras to use it to a fraction of its potential) as something like the dm2000.

I'm just lost to the purpose of this. it's seems it's for

a) people who have loads of high quality outboard that they would like to use with their daw. in which case they surely already have invested in a big desk of some sort.

or
b) people who want to move to out of the box mixing. in which case they realistically can't afford to get this and all the outboard needed. well in most cases anyhow. surely they'd see something like the dm2000 and think 'yeah that makes more sense'.

catch 22?

cornbb

jtsuited wrote: »

catch 22?

Without having a huge amount of knowledge for the existing competition for this product, thats what I was thinking. While I agree with the concept - in-depth DAW integration combined with extensive outboard integration - it seems that there's a danger of splitting the difference instead of combining it. If you know what I mean. It could go either way though, I wouldn't write this off at all.

jtsuited

cornbb wrote: »

It could go either way though, I wouldn't write this off at all.

being the gamblin man that i am, I'd put my money on this to make very little of a splash. i mean who is actually going to get one of these? falling between two barstools.

studiorat

It's a lot of money for a what's basically an electronic patchbay, a third of a desk, and a HUI.

If it sounds like the X-Rack I'd be impressed and having the two cue mixes makes it ideal and all the other centre section stuff is nice too. But they could have put a buss compressor in it and lost the "MATRIX" bit and still brought it in cheaper.

Is it meant to take over the role of a patchbay altogether? Am I meant to plug everything straight into the 'Matrix'? Is there Digital inputs?

I'd rather do a gig on this than a digital console though, I prefer the knob to a function approach over the soft function thing. Sure, the DM etc. has some nice features regarding linking channels and snapshots, but for keeping a session going quickly for all involved, with monitor mixes and all the rest the last thing you need are buttons that change function.
I also prefer an 'old skool routing matrix' a lot of the digital consoles I've used need you to select the channel to see where it's routed, easy to make a mess there.

real small mixer porn

Will you have one in Paul?

frobisher

Jebsus H Crust. uk£12,500 for summing and a HUI? Am I missing something here? I could see this being a great tool for certain situation but it's a lot of bread that if I had in my hand I would want to spend on other things well in advance of this. Or like I say, am I just missing something here?

studiorat

frobisher wrote: »

Jebsus H Crust. uk£12,500 for summing and a HUI? Am I missing something here? I could see this being a great tool for certain situation but it's a lot of bread that if I had in my hand I would want to spend on other things well in advance of this. Or like I say, am I just missing something here?

They seem to be making a big thing about the internal routing.

PaulBrewer

frobisher wrote: »

Jebsus H Crust. uk£12,500 for summing and a HUI? Am I missing something here? I could see this being a great tool for certain situation but it's a lot of bread that if I had in my hand I would want to spend on other things well in advance of this. Or like I say, am I just missing something here?

No, you're right.

However if you've got your 'other things' .... what do you get to integrate it all together, without doubling up on what you already have?

A Matrix !

PaulBrewer

studiorat wrote: »

Will you have one in Paul?

May I hope...

PaulBrewer

That's to say 'I'll have one in May' ......... not 'I may have one' .......

jimi_t

PaulBrewer wrote: »

No, you're right.

However if you've got your 'other things' .... what do you get to integrate it all together, without doubling up on what you already have?

A Matrix !

Thats the thing though, it appers to be hypothetical solution for a hypothetical demographic - I mean I can't think of a credible situation whereby someone would have all the 'other things' without having any sort of integration, unless they were a collector or something.

jtsuited

jimi_t wrote: »

Thats the thing though, it appers to be hypothetical solution for a hypothetical demographic - I mean I can't think of a credible situation whereby someone would have all the 'other things' without having any sort of integration, unless they were a collector or something.

well said. i can't come up with a credible situation either. but i guess its sales will tell if there is indeed a market for it.

i'm still putting my money on the 'flop' option.

PaulBrewer

That is indeed the real test !

Interestingly SSL have sold over 450 of the AWS 900s - at about Euro 60K ex vat a pop!

I think it's the first time that that sort of quality plus integration and control has been combined at such a low price.

Before anyone bursts a blood vessel over 'low' - low relative to the figure one would have to spend for access to that quality up to now.

I don't expect I'll be shifting pallet loads of 'em but can think of at least half a dozen guys in the country whose next inevitable step is something similar to what the Matrix provides.

I also think it's important insofar as a major player in Audio is continuing it's recognition that recording has changed. Guys still want the top $$ sound with out the top $$. Matrix I feel is another great step in that direction.

PaulBrewer

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/183557-ssl-matrix-console-explained.html#post1910811

PaulBrewer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fd5AJzSLuak

PaulBrewer

I see a great review in Sound-on-Sound this month.

studiorat

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I see a great review in Sound-on-Sound this month.

sure what do they know:D

PaulBrewer

studiorat wrote: »

sure what do they know:D

They're coming around to my way of thinking! See they're reviewing Drumagog this month too......

Are they reading Boards I wonder?

DamagedTrax

this is right at the top of my wish list :-)

very suited to ITB heads with a bit of cash to throw.

teamdresch

PaulBrewer wrote: »

They're coming around to my way of thinking! See they're reviewing Drumagog this month too......

They're just a little late reviewing Drumagog, aren't they?
I've been using that for at least 4 years.

PaulBrewer

teamdresch wrote: »

They're just a little late reviewing Drumagog, aren't they?
I've been using that for at least 4 years.

Aye, it's the latest one with the BFD stuff.

PaulBrewer

First Matrix just landed for a Client in Galway...

jtsuited

I know it's high quality circuitry and all but if they were under 10k, I'd be gettin one quicker than you could say 'unhappy bank manager'.

dav nagle

jtsuited wrote: »

I know it's high quality circuitry and all but if they were under 10k, I'd be gettin one quicker than you could say 'unhappy bank manager'.

I agree 20 thousand is too much for what it is, 10k and I would invest.

sei046

I loved the machine, It was a serious bit of work and it sounded great. I still cannot see the marked being big enough. I dont see it as a massive seller. For me it seems to just fall between the cracks

af_thefragile

Its SSL so is gonna be pretty good!

dav nagle

sei046 wrote: »

I loved the machine, It was a serious bit of work and it sounded great. I still cannot see the marked being big enough. I dont see it as a massive seller. For me it seems to just fall between the cracks

*market:rolleyes:

PaulBrewer

sei046 wrote: »

I loved the machine, It was a serious bit of work and it sounded great. I still cannot see the marked being big enough. I dont see it as a massive seller. For me it seems to just fall between the cracks

I disagree, the Sonic gain combined with the increase in workflow and the added practicality of the patchbay says 'winner' to me. It has no competition.

I've one sold and another 2 practically sold, 1 to a Multi Million Selling Rockstar and one to one of Ireland's most successful Producer/Songwriters. If I sold 1 more after that I'd be very happy.

It's obviously not a mass market unit and all those guys are buying with their businesses so no Vat. That's a whole heap o tackle for 16.5k.

jtsuited

dav nagle wrote: »

I agree 20 thousand is too much for what it is, 10k and I would invest.

wanna go halves?:D

jtsuited

right now if i was going this route (which i hope to be when my sales cheque comes in in a few months time), I'd sort of be looking at more of a setup of a Toft ATB with lots of nice converters.

That works out a lot cheaper at the moment.
So while there is not 1 single product that does what the matrix does, there are other approaches which work out cheaper.

I'm not bothered about DAW control so that doesn't really come into the equation.

Or am I missing something here?

dav nagle

jtsuited wrote: »

wanna go halves?:D

I am willing to rent a studio soon enough so if you want to go halves on the whole lot I am in! Rent and desk!:rolleyes:

PaulBrewer

jtsuited wrote: »

right now if i was going this route (which i hope to be when my sales cheque comes in in a few months time), I'd sort of be looking at more of a setup of a Toft ATB with lots of nice converters.

That works out a lot cheaper at the moment.
So while there is not 1 single product that does what the matrix does, there are other approaches which work out cheaper.

I'm not bothered about DAW control so that doesn't really come into the equation.

Or am I missing something here?

Have you heard the Toft?

jtsuited

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Have you heard the Toft?

No not yet. Not nice?

jtsuited

dav nagle wrote: »

I am willing to rent a studio soon enough so if you want to go halves on the whole lot I am in! Rent and desk!:rolleyes:

nah i'm useless with money, and would probably end up living in the studio space. there could be some unpleasantless.

PaulBrewer

jtsuited wrote: »

No not yet. Not nice?

Don't know.
I do remember years ago talking to Malcolm about a buying a console and he sent over a chan. It performed more or less the same as the similarly priced DDA we already had - which was grand, but nothing really special.

jtsuited

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Don't know.
I do remember years ago talking to Malcolm about a buying a console and he sent over a chan. It performed more or less the same as the similarly priced DDA we already had - which was grand, but nothing really special.

Hmmm, obviously I'll be taking a trip somewhere to demo it before I buy it (which is a good bit off).

I'm really just looking for a summing mixer and don't feel like gettin the neve 8816 (wouldn't mind being able to mix entirely outside the box if ya get me).

Also I notice A&H came out with the new Zed desk this week that has full firewire ad/da conversion on like 18 channels or something. Now if that sounds even half decent I'm gonna get one.

funnily enough I was thinking the other day that someone should make a nice big console with multichannel firewire connectivity (no need for a load of converters then). Then I read about said A&H mixer. Hopefully all the analogue console people will follow suit and make an affordable, little firewire connectable desk (or PCIe) so people like myself can mix outside the box without breaking the bank.

jtsuited

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Don't know.
I do remember years ago talking to Malcolm about a buying a console and he sent over a chan. It performed more or less the same as the similarly priced DDA we already had - which was grand, but nothing really special.

yeah see I don't reckon the channels themselves will be up to much, but it's the quality of the summing that I'm interested in.

Saw an interview with Malcolm Toft on youtube a while ago where he said the Toft ATB was built with no price point in mind. In other words they set out to make the best sounding desk they could (money no object etc).
I'm slightly reluctant to take this as the whole truth though considering it fell into the perfect price range for a lot of people.

Apparently the low cost came from the channels being separate groups of eight as opposed to actual single channels.

I'm not gonna pretend to know if this is possible or not, so maybe Paul you could shed some light on it?

PaulBrewer

jtsuited wrote: »

yeah see I don't reckon the channels themselves will be up to much, but it's the quality of the summing that I'm interested in.

Saw an interview with Malcolm Toft on youtube a while ago where he said the Toft ATB was built with no price point in mind. In other words they set out to make the best sounding desk they could (money no object etc).
I'm slightly reluctant to take this as the whole truth though considering it fell into the perfect price range for a lot of people.

Apparently the low cost came from the channels being separate groups of eight as opposed to actual single channels.

I'm not gonna pretend to know if this is possible or not, so maybe Paul you could shed some light on it?

In a situation where most guys are (rightly) watching the pennies there's little point in buying anything that isn't going to be used. Either actual units or the facilities on them.

Don't really know much about production, but it's unlikely a small company will have any production advantage that their competition wouldn't. Even SSL farm out some production.

The 8 chan thing is an old trick though, and generally has a negative effect on serviceability (again one of the things that's been designed into the SSL)

teamdresch

I think the price is about right.
Maybe not for some of the folks here, but I'd be surprised if one or two didn't pop up in small to medium sized studios over the next two years or so.
There's no doubt that you can get a lot of used analog console for that kind of money, but there's equally little doubt that the DAW integration is a huge plus.
The only sticking point I can see is for those folks who need to track too - you're looking at an extra investment in preamps on top.

PaulBrewer

teamdresch wrote: »

you're looking at an extra investment in preamps on top.

But only what you need, and what flavour you want.

The one I have will be with us a week so if you, or anyone else, would care to pop around for a look you're more than welcome.

PaulBrewer

Matrix gets a great review in the US magazine MIX too this month ...

PaulBrewer

Following on from interest at X-Music and comment here on Boards Richard from SSL is returning with a Matrix for a Demo on Saturday 31st at X.

If anyone wants a 1 to 1 Demo let me know or if you just want a Tyre Kick just turn up from Mid Morning.

Should be fun!

jtsuited

great shtuff. i'll hopefully make it.

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Following on from interest at X-Music and comment here on Boards Richard from SSL is returning with a Matrix for a Demo on Saturday 31st at X.

If anyone wants a 1 to 1 Demo let me know or if you just want a Tyre Kick just turn up from Mid Morning.

Should be fun!

PaulBrewer

jtsuited wrote: »

great shtuff. i'll hopefully make it.

If you want a 1 to 1 go through with it I'd need to know before hand so we can allocate the day .... let me know.

dav nagle

Richard should consider higher purchase!

jtsuited

dav nagle wrote: »

Richard should consider higher purchase!

good man dav. recommending higher purchase in these times!:pac::pac: