O'Gara

quagmire69

Would just like to hear some other peoples opinions on this as I am bewildered at the moment.

Over the past few weeks O'gara has been gettin a lot of press in the irish media as being one of the best 10's in the world/6N at the mo and how he's the man to build a team around and make captain. I just read a piece in the Tribune by mark jones who clearly thinks the sun shines out of his....well you know. I bet the equivalent media in Eng & Wales etc say Wilko/Cipriani and Hook/Jones are better. I'm not sayin they are right but I think our media are way over board on this issue.

I think he a hugely over-rated international out half. Brilliant at munster but has NEVER done it on the big occasion for IRL in my opinion.

I'll agree that he is the best 10 (or close to it) at kicking from hand but apart from that, he's very limited. I think he is a poor defender and is not very good being creative with the ball in hand (ie making breaks, distribution etc).

I was at the match on sat and in 2nd half when we were gettin slow ball and people in the crowd were givin reddan stick for being too indecisive, on at least one occassion I watched reddan look at his options and O'Gara was standin there with his hands on his knees!

Am I the only person who thinks this is the last guy we should be building a team around? I think the next 4 years should be spent finding a new 10 or else puttin O'Gara under severe pressure for his place.

On the captain note, I dont think it shud be BOD or POC as both are horribly out of form. My choice would be gleeson/cullen for the next year or two to inject some fresh perspective as they are both hungry, but are they worth a place? Needless to say i think EOS has to go but thats a given i suppose.

Thoughts on the O'gara issue?

anonymous_joe

His game has certainly become more rounded than it used to.

I wouldn't agree that he's a liability, but yes, there are (frequent) times when his love of kicking costs us any chance of playing rugby.

Yesterday was an example of a game when we became much much too predictable. O'Gara kicked everything, meaning the Welsh always knew what to expect. People complain about Trimble and O'Driscoll (I've done it myself) but in fairness, there's very little they can do when O'Gara's already hoofed the ball away.

I'd certainly advocate the development of another international 10, we need to find one first though. We need a more varied approach to the position. England and Wales both have wealth of options at out-half, allowing them to shake up the game and vary tempo and style.

daveyrovers

Yeah I read that article in Tribune in disbelief?

The guy completed two tackles out of an attempted 8, which if he was playing on the J4's would be a good enough reason to drop him. However his kicking particularly out of hand is incredible, his place kicking is up there with patterson, and believe or not he is one of the best passers of the ball in the game. Apart from been a little Yellow he is the best out half in the world. However a little Yellow is a massive flaw in an international player. Gatland targeted him in the game Yesterday getting Ryan Jones to charge at him on numerous occasions. David Wallace covers well for him most of the time but there is only so much he can do.

We should without doubt be looking to bring on some options at number 10. The Ulster guy O'Connor looked good in the one game I saw him, Paddy Wallace isn't really an option.

quagmire69

daveyrovers wrote: »

Yeah I read that article in Tribune in disbelief?

The guy completed two tackles out of an attempted 8, which if he was playing on the J4's would be a good enough reason to drop him. However his kicking particularly out of hand is incredible, his place kicking is up there with patterson, and believe or not he is one of the best passers of the ball in the game. Apart from been a little Yellow he is the best out half in the world. However a little Yellow is a massive flaw in an international player. Gatland targeted him in the game Yesterday getting Ryan Jones to charge at him on numerous occasions. David Wallace covers well for him most of the time but there is only so much he can do.

We should without doubt be looking to bring on some options at number 10. The Ulster guy O'Connor looked good in the one game I saw him, Paddy Wallace isn't really an option.

Do you really think he is a good passer of the ball? Distribution wise, in comparison to other 10's in the 6N he is not very good. Hook and Jones are both better.

The best 10 in the world?

Carter, Larkham, Giteau, Wilkinson(once every 4years), Hernandez, Evans are all better surely?

athtrasna

My two cents worth - O'Gara has his days like everyone else! Lately he's been the only man behind the scrum who has persistently played anything resembling international standard rugby.

I do think he's suffered from the loss of Stringer at 9, he's still not 100% comfortable with Reddan and has tended to kick more since Stringer was dropped.

Having said all that, his goal kicking has come on so much in the last couple of years, his nerves don't tend to get the better of him the way he did.

Of "Eddies 15" I think O'Gara is the only candidate for captain. We don't have a comparable out half at this stage. Watching him this season he's been the one to constantly try to motivate the team, shouting encouragement at every stop in play.

O'Gara has grown in this team and continues to get better. Give the lad a break!

gjim

I think he a hugely over-rated international out half. Brilliant at munster but has NEVER done it on the big occasion for IRL in my opinion.

You haven't watched much international rugby then. He's given masterclass outhalf performances in the green shirt over the years. Particularly memorable were against England.

Yes he kicked everything yesterday but there's such a thing as a gameplan, you know. He was doing what he was told to do. You'll be blaming the forwards for trying to pick and drive yesterday next.

daveyrovers

I honestly believe if he could tackle as well as Wilkinson he would be the best 10 in the world. There's only two parts to rugby attack and defence he's missing one of two components.

Jones is a very slow predictable number 10 who I wouldn't really rate that high at all. Hook is far better. Best 10's in the world

1) Carter
2) Hernadez
3) Larkham
4) Stephen Brett

I'm not sure who Evans is but assume it's nick Evans, he's ok but I'd have him further down the list

Bounty Hunter

its not hes never really done it on the big occasion for Ireland its that Ireland have never really done it on the big occasion, and I feel kind of sorry for good players like O'Gara when it comes to Ireland as whether it is due to coaching (hello Eddie) or whatever Ireland always preform within themselves on these big occasions. why havent Ireland won the six nations? we have had players better than sides who have won it (wales twice if this year happens).

athtrasna

wrong thread - oops

buck65

On the captain note, I dont think it shud be BOD or POC as both are horribly out of form. My choice would be gleeson/cullen for the next year or two


Nonsense, I think O gara was our top try scorer in last year's 6 nations!

Re captain- you wouldn't be a Leinster fan now would you?
These guys aren't even in the squad.

razorblunt

I think Hernandez is very over-rated as well for what it's worth.

daveyrovers

It is easy to go over the top about Internationals who are not playing in the Six nations or Tri Nations. Because you don't get to see much of the french championship, you tend to see the fantastic things they do (on you tube) but you don't see the ordainary games they have. I'd stick Hernadez there purely on his World Cup form.

Webbs

I think O'Gara has been playing fantastic rugby for Munster both in his traditional kicking game and this year with a change in personnel outside him has improved his distribution no end. Why did we see none of this on Saturday surely that has to come down to a coaches tactics.

The argument that he had slow ball and could only kick shouldnt really work as he has players like O'Driscoll outside him who are excellent at taking the ball in contact and setting up quick ball, you see him do this time after time for Leinster, however a lot of this comes down to the back row composition.
I think on the weekend the lack of a balanced back row meant that Ireland had no other option as Wallace was always going to struggle to keep up with Williams to provide the quick ball.
I will declare myself as a welshman, but I think this year O'Gara has been the standout No10 for his game management considering the lack of form players outside him and/or the tactic that have been told to use.
Only thing I would say is that if he is to be Irish captain then there needed to be some decisions made on the pitch early on to change the tactics which obviously weren't working, no one stepped up to the mark and take that responsibility

quagmire69

buck65 wrote: »

On the captain note, I dont think it shud be BOD or POC as both are horribly out of form. My choice would be gleeson/cullen for the next year or two


Nonsense, I think O gara was our top try scorer in last year's 6 nations!

Re captain- you wouldn't be a Leinster fan now would you?
These guys aren't even in the squad.

No, i am not a leinster supporter. I just think those two guys are good players playing in a bad team and they are both bery resilient characters. I think they
are natural leaders unlike BOD. I understand they are not in the squad - thats an eddie issue which is a whole other debate. I think our team desperately needs a real 7.

I am not disputing the try scoring, its his ability to lighten up a backline under pressure (for ireland in big games - ie france, WC, away against Southern Hemisphere opp).

razorblunt wrote: »

I think Hernandez is very over-rated as well for what it's worth.

Yes but the World Cup is the big occasion and he performed. O'Gara didnt, i understand he wasn't the only player to underperform but 10 is a key position. I think what the WC showed was that any well prepared Int team know how to nullify him, as wales did on sat.

If ROG is made captain there will be no development at 10 for the next 4 years, I think that is the worst case scenario.

daveyrovers wrote: »

I honestly believe if he could tackle as well as Wilkinson he would be the best 10 in the world. There's only two parts to rugby attack and defence he's missing one of two components.

Jones is a very slow predictable number 10 who I wouldn't really rate that high at all. Hook is far better.

He cant tackle. Wilko gets better with pressure, a rare quality.

Re jones, that is kinda my point. in wales i bet they say o'gara is predicatable , cant tackle and wont play open rugby. Jones caused all sorts of trouble for us on sat, pace or no pace.

anonymous_joe

Wilkinson's recent performances haven't been superb either as of late.

It's been said before, O'Gara's easy to read, and easy to nullify. He's very vulnerable to someone bombing down the 10 channel, meaning he needs one of the backrow to protect him, which slows down the rucks.

hugejeans

O'Gara is a great 10 on the front foot, his kicking and passing are both excellent. The problem is when a bit of pressure comes on he struggles to make an impression. I was at the game on Saturday and saw a number of time (especially in the last 20) when he didnt want to know about the game, walking back to his position and taking forever to get up after attempted tackles.

Steyr

Id love it if he was like Wilko with more attempts at Drop Goals.

vorbis

ah lads, does everything have to be over sensationalized. O Gara has a disastrous world cup (along with pretty much everyone) but has rebounded. All the kicking yesterday was obviously a gameplan! Do you really think players aren't given instructions by the manager before they go out to play???

O Gara has been world class for club and country in the years leading up to the world cup. How anyone can dispute that is beyond me. Also maybe I wasn't looking hard enough but I didn't see six missed tackles by O Gara on Saturday.

Stev_o

Rog never ever ever ever ever ever came close to matching Carter as the worlds best fly half he was massively over rated by the media. But that doesnt take away from him being such a great asset to Ireland

phog

quagmire69 wrote: »

I think he a hugely over-rated international out half. Brilliant at munster but has NEVER done it on the big occasion for IRL in my opinion.

On the captain note, I dont think it shud be BOD or POC as both are horribly out of form. My choice would be gleeson/cullen for the next year or two to inject some fresh perspective as they are both hungry, but are they worth a place? Needless to say i think EOS has to go but thats a given i suppose.

Thoughts on the O'gara issue?

How many internationals have you watched or how much analysis do you listen to?
ROG is always top of the list when they (BBC, Sky, BBC Wales, RTE, Newstalk to name a few) analyise the threat from Ireland.

As for the captain - why name two players for the captains role when they aren't even getting into the squad?

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Yesterday was an example of a game when we became much much too predictable. O'Gara kicked everything, meaning the Welsh always knew what to expect. People complain about Trimble and O'Driscoll (I've done it myself) but in fairness, there's very little they can do when O'Gara's already hoofed the ball away.

I'd guess Saturdays game was supposed to follow a game plan to beat Wales, I'm sure it wasn't ROG's game plan but it certainly was influenced by the players you name (ROG, BOD and Trimble) if we haven't got line breakers then revert to Plan Two.

anonymous_joe

phog wrote: »

I'd guess Saturdays game was supposed to follow a game plan to beat Wales, I'm sure it wasn't ROG's game plan but it certainly was influenced by the players you name (ROG, BOD and Trimble) if we haven't got line breakers then revert to Plan Two.

Shouldn't you be able to change a game plan?

matt-dublin

yes they should be able to change a game plan, but apparently there's a lack of game plans available due to coaching. perfect examples...

ireland v argentina in the world cup. we were blaightently trying to force a line out, hernandez knew it and just kept kicking the ball straight down the middle of the pitch. Knowing exactly from our previous matches that we made a lot of our plays from the lineout. the only player to take a bit of initaitive was murphy and both times he chased his kicks he was intentially impeded and the offenders weren't sited!

Personally, i think ROG should be given the chance to take the captains belt, he seems to be really settling back into himself after the world cup and all the surrounding rumors and gossip. (stringer sleeping with his wife, him sleeping with his wifes sister, stringer punching BOD in the changing rooms amongst some of them). He seems to be more capable of managing the game then BOD has recently been able to do and certainly seems more motovational towards the rest of the team than BOD.

And realistically Im kind of glad to see BOD off the team for a while, he needs time off. Riddled with injuries that hes never had or taken the time to heal properly, he's just not up to the standard of international rugby anymore let alone international captaincy. It almost appears that in every match he seems to be taking further steps into the shadows. Too much time spent in the gym, loss of flexability resulting in constant injuries as seriously impeeded his performance.

And although redden and ROG aren't quite compatible they certainly seem to be mingling a bit better with them, there was always going to be this problem esp when ROG has only really been playing with stringer as his sidekick for a long while now and everyone knows change is difficult. but redden seems capable of filling the little mans big boots. He seems to have excellent potential with some fine tuning here and there, he's fast and i feel more aggressive than stringer ever was. my only real issue is the couple of steps he takes before passing the ball out of rooks and malls, something you don't see with stringer, but something that he appears to have worked on over the last few games as you see less and less of it enabling him to pass a hell of a lot faster.

Dunno what to say about POC, he's just not there anymore apparently!!

phog

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Shouldn't you be able to change a game plan?

Yes but to what? If one of your centres is acting like a flanker than that reduces your options. BTW if changing a game plan isn't coming from the coach than the captain should have tried to implement a change - did we see any sing of that in our few matches?

matt-dublin wrote: »

Dunno what to say about POC, he's just not there anymore apparently!!

Bit harsh really - he had the highest tackle count on Saturday, he was always encouraging and demanding more of the forwards, yes I think he went of the boil towards the end and felt MOD should have got at least 30 minutes but that's for the coach to decide.

quagmire69

phog wrote: »

How many internationals have you watched or how much analysis do you listen to?
ROG is always top of the list when they (BBC, Sky, BBC Wales, RTE, Newstalk to name a few) analyise the threat from Ireland.

As for the captain - why name two players for the captains role when they aren't even getting into the squad?

Of course he is a threat, but only from the boot. I am questioning his other abilities. I'm not saying he's terrible, i just think we should start looking at the future in that position rather than make him captain and have nobody else play there for another 4 years.

Part of my point is that the irish media have got carried away with how good he is. i have heard numerous irish pundits putting him up there in the top one or two 10s in the world. he is nowhere near that level.

I think a new captain should be somebody who either has not been involved in the current set up or somebody with limited caps whose enthusiasm hasnt been sapped by eddie. I know people have different opinions on the team but i think gleeson shud start and be captain for the tour to NZ. I'm not trying to predict eddie's thoughts here, he's obviously gonna pick POC or ROG.

phog

quagmire69 wrote: »

Of course he is a threat, but only from the boot. I am questioning his other abilities. I'm not saying he's terrible, i just think we should start looking at the future in that position rather than make him captain and have nobody else play there for another 4 years.

Part of my point is that the irish media have got carried away with how good he is. i have heard numerous irish pundits putting him up there in the top one or two 10s in the world. he is nowhere near that level.

I think a new captain should be somebody who either has not been involved in the current set up or somebody with limited caps whose enthusiasm hasnt been sapped by eddie. I know people have different opinions on the team but i think gleeson shud start and be captain for the tour to NZ. I'm not trying to predict eddie's thoughts here, he's obviously gonna pick POC or ROG.

I fully agree we should be using other players to see how they perform as back-up, I'd love to see Eddie give youth a chance next week but already this evening Philip Matthews is saying if we lose then Eddie must go - so what will Eddie do, pick the same 15 with the exception of BOD (injury) and maybe restore Murphy or Dempsey.

There's no point in talking about bringing in someone who hasn't been Eddieized until Eddie goes but I don't think you can springboard a player into the setup and at the same time make him captain. Anyway looking to the future is Gleeson the right man, he's 32 in June hardly a prospect for the future?

matt-dublin

phog wrote: »

Yes but to what? If one of your centres is acting like a flanker than that reduces your options. BTW if changing a game plan isn't coming from the coach than the captain should have tried to implement a change - did we see any sing of that in our few matches?



Bit harsh really - he had the highest tackle count on Saturday, he was always encouraging and demanding more of the forwards, yes I think he went of the boil towards the end and felt MOD should have got at least 30 minutes but that's for the coach to decide.

yes harsh but justified. in comparison to his career history he's not the player he used to be. still a great player but a bit too quiet nowadays. since the quabbles of the world cup the team just hasn't been right.

i sincerely believe ROG would prove to be an excellent international captain, seems to be doing well driving munster.

bleg

quagmire69 wrote: »

I think a new captain should be somebody who either has not been involved in the current set up or somebody with limited caps whose enthusiasm hasnt been sapped by eddie. I know people have different opinions on the team but i think gleeson shud start and be captain for the tour to NZ. I'm not trying to predict eddie's thoughts here, he's obviously gonna pick POC or ROG.

no. gleeson has little if any captaincy experience. he's not even second in line in his province to be captain. pulling him into the first 15 from nowhere and making him captain would be absolutely ridiculous. he hasn't played 1 minutes rugby with this 6 nations team yet you expect him to have the respect of all the players and be able to give them guidance and inspiration. he has no experience of making the tough decisions (posts or corner for example) in high pressure situations. starting him in a hostile environment against an english team that's out for vengeance. sheer lunacy

daveyrovers

Have to agree Gleeson is not an option to captain us against England. Gleeson is a good player but he's 32 and rightly or wrongly has been out of the set up for a while. If we are going to look for a scrapper number 7 surely we'd be better looking at someone a little younger. Personally I think it would be plain wrong to drop Wallace. While he isn't a typical ground hog number 7 he has been playing pretty well (wales game not included).

I think when you're summing up players this year you have to take the world cup into consideration. I notice a lot of people jumping on the Eddie butler bandwagon claiming BOD hasn't played well since that spear tackle in New Zealand. Lets not forget that if it wasn't for BOD we would have actually lost those two games in the RWC (his try was a complete individual effort in the first game) and his try was the difference in the second game. Suddenly we have people claiming he is now only a jumped up openside. He was carrying some sort of an injury since the world cup. He is the only player we have that would make a world 15. I don't think he's a great captain, but to be honest there is no one else in the team that I can see as a good leader. ROG is afraid to tackle and despite his incredible talent it's hard to have respect for someone who is afraid to tackle.

The two options I would have for Captain would be

1) DOC- I know he doesn't take on much of a role with the Munster team. But this guy can play great some days and just goes missing other days. He played his best rugby when POC wasn't around and I wonder was that because he had the extra responsibility of the "established" Second row. If he were givien the titile of captain would this actually have the added benefit of improving his game?

2) Heaslip- I know he's young enough and it may be seen as a snub to BOD. But now that BOD is out injured is our chance to find someone that the captaincy sits well with. I think this guy has a real rugby brain. This is with the greatest respect toe Leamy as I think he's a fantastic player but he's more of a heads up player than leamy. He looks for the off load, speaks very well (as in intelligently not with a D4 accent) in interviews and would lead from the front.

razorblunt

daveyrovers wrote: »

ROG is afraid to tackle and despite his incredible talent it's hard to have respect for someone who is afraid to tackle.

QUOTE]


I disagree you only need to look at his hit on Chabal and his game versus Toulouse (I know its 8 years ago but still). Technique is his problem, failry often he goes too high, which is lazy more than anything but he's well able to drop anyone coming at him.

His frame doesnt help either he's probably one of the slightest professional rugby players around today. But I'd still prefer him to the round shouldered Stephen Jones or Charlie Hodgson even Wilko.

quagmire69

daveyrovers wrote: »

Have to agree Gleeson is not an option to captain us against England. Gleeson is a good player but he's 32 and rightly or wrongly has been out of the set up for a while. If we are going to look for a scrapper number 7 surely we'd be better looking at someone a little younger. Personally I think it would be plain wrong to drop Wallace. While he isn't a typical ground hog number 7 he has been playing pretty well (wales game not included).

I think when you're summing up players this year you have to take the world cup into consideration. I notice a lot of people jumping on the Eddie butler bandwagon claiming BOD hasn't played well since that spear tackle in New Zealand. Lets not forget that if it wasn't for BOD we would have actually lost those two games in the RWC (his try was a complete individual effort in the first game) and his try was the difference in the second game. Suddenly we have people claiming he is now only a jumped up openside. He was carrying some sort of an injury since the world cup. He is the only player we have that would make a world 15. I don't think he's a great captain, but to be honest there is no one else in the team that I can see as a good leader. ROG is afraid to tackle and despite his incredible talent it's hard to have respect for someone who is afraid to tackle.

The two options I would have for Captain would be

1) DOC- I know he doesn't take on much of a role with the Munster team. But this guy can play great some days and just goes missing other days. He played his best rugby when POC wasn't around and I wonder was that because he had the extra responsibility of the "established" Second row. If he were givien the titile of captain would this actually have the added benefit of improving his game?

2) Heaslip- I know he's young enough and it may be seen as a snub to BOD. But now that BOD is out injured is our chance to find someone that the captaincy sits well with. I think this guy has a real rugby brain. This is with the greatest respect toe Leamy as I think he's a fantastic player but he's more of a heads up player than leamy. He looks for the off load, speaks very well (as in intelligently not with a D4 accent) in interviews and would lead from the front.

Agree with what your saying there, i was'nt implying to put gleeson as capt for the eng match, just for the NZ tour to freshin things up, not a long term captain. He was a highly regarded captain when in AUS so i believe. I know he isnt young, i just have a lot of time for him. Wasnt expectin many people to agree with me on that.

As long term captains go, heaslip and reddan in the current set up would be my choices. Jennings might make a good one but not sure if he is a good enuf player.
DOC would be low down on my list. His form is to on and off

On the wallace factor, yes i think he is good but should be fighting leamy for the 6 shirt. He is a bit too anonomysous for my liking as a 7.

anonymous_joe

razorblunt wrote: »

daveyrovers wrote: »

ROG is afraid to tackle and despite his incredible talent it's hard to have respect for someone who is afraid to tackle.

QUOTE]


I disagree you only need to look at his hit on Chabal and his game versus Toulouse (I know its 8 years ago but still). Technique is his problem, failry often he goes too high, which is lazy more than anything but he's well able to drop anyone coming at him.

His frame doesnt help either he's probably one of the slightest professional rugby players around today. But I'd still prefer him to the round shouldered Stephen Jones or Charlie Hodgson even Wilko.

He's a professional rugby player, dude. You expect quite a few super tackles in his history, but that doesn't effect the sad fact that recently he's been found a little wanting in terms of his tackling, and also when he himself is faced with the prospect of being tackled.

ROG's come on as a player a hell of a lot recently, but we're limited to one out-half in Ireland at the moment, and that's a terrible terrible thing.