what happens when we die

timetogetfit

Ask a religious person this and they will say our soul goes to heaven and we meet our loved ones and we are happy forever

Ask an athiest this and they will say the same place you were before you were born no where you cease to exist


But the thing is these are only beliefs at opposite sides of the spectrum

In reality the only scientif answer one can really give is

I DONT KNOW

Basically it comes down to this for those that believe no explanation is necessary for those that dont believe no explanation will suffice

JC 2K3

*claps

Sir Wanksalot

That's very insightful 'timetogetfit'
You should start your own religion/church.
I'd join.

Zillah

Its actually not nearly as reasonable as it seems.

We have zero evidence that the human personality is anything more than an expression of the brain. It is only rational to conclude that when the brain ceases to function so does the personality. Technically you are correct in saying "I don't know", but I rank it up there with vampires, unicorns and the tooth fairy: Technically the only absolutely correct answer is "We don't know if they exist", but I'd have little respect for someone who lacked the conviction to assert that they don't think these things are true.

RedXIV

The author Terry Pratchett has a nice idea of what happens when you die,

You end up doing whatever you think you should when you die, no exceptions.

I like this approach, and have decided when i die, i'm gonna party for eternity

Pompey Magnus

After we die we will be in exactly the same state as we were before we were born, completely non-existant.

Obni

I like Jonathan Miller's analogy with a car that breaks down.
People don't say that the car is gone, that its essence is elsewhere, or that the thing that made it a car has migrated to another plane of existence and what's left behind is just the physical shell of the inner car.
You can point at the car and say "Look, the car is there, just like its always been, except that it doesn't work anymore.".
Same with us.

lostexpectation

when we die, we die, we stop working

timetogetfit

timetogetfit wrote: »

Ask a religious person this and they will say our soul goes to heaven and we meet our loved ones and we are happy forever

Ask an athiest this and they will say the same place you were before you were born no where you cease to exist


But the thing is these are only beliefs at opposite sides of the spectrum

you forgot the non-heaven afterlife beliefs

Simon.d

timetogetfit wrote: »

Ask a religious person this and they will say our soul goes to heaven and we meet our loved ones and we are happy forever

Ask an athiest this and they will say the same place you were before you were born no where you cease to exist


But the thing is these are only beliefs at opposite sides of the spectrum

In reality the only scientif answer one can really give is

I DONT KNOW

I like to think of the universe acting in a cyclical nature like a perfect spring bouncing on into eternity..

The cycle starts with the big bang, with all space/energy being blasted out out from a single point and pushed up a huge gravitational hill.. After a few years (lots and lots of them) the expansion comes to a stop and it all starts contracting in on itself, returning to the start of the cycle as a singularity.. Where it all starts over again..
So in essence, assuming the universe has been bouncing away like this for an eternity thus far, we've already spent an infinite amount of time on this planet, living out our lives with the progression of each cycle, and will live out this life time and time again, forever more.

Zillah

Simon.d wrote: »

I like to think of the universe acting in a cyclical nature like a perfect spring bouncing on into eternity..

The cycle starts with the big bang, with all space/energy being blasted out out from a single point and pushed up a huge gravitational hill.. After a few years (lots and lots of them) the expansion comes to a stop and it all starts contracting in on itself, returning to the start of the cycle as a singularity.. Where it all starts over again..
So in essence, assuming the universe has been bouncing away like this for an eternity thus far, we've already spent an infinite amount of time on this planet, living out our lives with the progression of each cycle, and will live out this life time and time again, forever more.

And I like to think that the universe is actually a gigantic ice cream cone, but we're both just making stuff up, aren't we?

AckwelFoley

When i asked my father this question as a young child i got what i believe is the best answer.

What happens when i die dad?

Son.. when you die you are dead.

edanto

OP I know where you're coming from, I have the same worldview. It's not cowardice (to come down on either side) that makes me say that I don't know if something supernatural exists, it's a lack of evidence and a lack of the feeling of 'faith' and 'belief' that some people tell me that they have.

As far as churches go, anyone in a fancy costume preaching to a crowd - no matter what day of the week they consider sacred or which animal they won't eat - I think they're bullshitting when they say that they know what happens when we die.

In an nutshell, anyone that says they know what happens when we die - I think they're lying and I have to start to look at their motivation for that.

There's no doubt that religion was enforced by rulers and politicians historically and we can all see the great and grand success that was in achieving a just society. I walked out the back door of the Vatican Museum ten years ago having just walked past the most valuable collection of art in the world, kilometers of it, and much not on display too. On the steps by the back door there was a thin woman with a babe at her breast begging. The contrast made me feel sick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGvZ9aXg5Xs

There is no appreciable difference in the morals preached by the various churches, only differences in the details and stories, and critically, who you should give the money too. If there's a god, she's not going to want you to do anything except to live like Jesus or Buddha (after he came back from the walkabout!).

iUseVi

Zillah wrote: »

Its actually not nearly as reasonable as it seems.

We have zero evidence that the human personality is anything more than an expression of the brain. It is only rational to conclude that when the brain ceases to function so does the personality. Technically you are correct in saying "I don't know", but I rank it up there with vampires, unicorns and the tooth fairy: Technically the only absolutely correct answer is "We don't know if they exist", but I'd have little respect for someone who lacked the conviction to assert that they don't think these things are true.

I totally agree Zillah. I would recommend this excellent essay on the soul/dualism etc.

http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/ghost.html

(First post on this forum, yay!)

Simon.d

Zillah wrote: »

And I like to think that the universe is actually a gigantic ice cream cone, but we're both just making stuff up, aren't we?

Not really..

The cyclic universe: An informal introduction

Paul J. Steinhaxdta and Neil Turokb
a Joseph Henry Laboratories, Department of Physics, Princeton University, Princeton, NJ 08544, USA
b DAMTP, Centre for Mathematical Sciences, Wilberforce Road, Cambridge, CB3 OWA, UK

Available online 9 October 2003.


Abstract

The Cyclic Model is a radical, new cosmological scenario which proposes that the Universe undergoes an endless sequence of epochs which begin with a ‘big bang’ and end in a ‘big crunch.’ When the Universes bounces from contraction to re-expansion, the temperature and density remain finite. The model does not include a period of rapid inflation, yet it reproduces all of the successful predictions of standard big bang and inflationary cosmology. We point out numerous novel elements that have not been used previously which may open the door to further alternative cosmologies. Although the model is motivated by M-theory, branes and extra dimensions, here we show that the scenario can be described almost entirely in terms of conventional 4d field theory and 4d cosmology.

OK-Cancel-Apply

There's no reason to assume anything magical happens when we die. I suppose it's hard to imagine the idea of our consciousness ceasing to exist, but if you've ever gone under general anaesthetic, I suppose it's easier.

Zillah

Simon.d wrote: »

Not really..

Yes really:

So in essence, assuming the universe has been bouncing away like this for an eternity thus far, we've already spent an infinite amount of time on this planet, living out our lives with the progression of each cycle, and will live out this life time and time again, forever more.

The universe would be entirely different every time. You still die when you die. Even if there's a big crunch and the universe begins again, you're still dead.

iUseVi wrote: »

I totally agree Zillah. I would recommend this excellent essay on the soul/dualism etc.

http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/ghost.html

(First post on this forum, yay!)

Bawwh! Thats, uh, a lot of reading. I'll get to it if I find myself with a few hours to kill.

iUseVi

Zillah wrote: »

Bawwh! Thats, uh, a lot of reading. I'll get to it if I find myself with a few hours to kill.

Yeah, thats a bit of a read, but his writing style is very readable. He has other great(shorter) essays on topics such as:
http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/2000years.html

Apparantely Jesus is over 2000 years late in coming. Oh well.
Bit off topic I know. :rolleyes:

Simon.d

Zillah wrote: »

Yes really:


The universe would be entirely different every time. You still die when you die. Even if there's a big crunch and the universe begins again, you're still dead.

How could the universe be entirely different every time? As energy/matter is believed to be finite an infinite number of cycles, means that every possible combination of atoms, photons, quarks, w.r.t to space and time come together an infinite amount of times.... Meaning we live this life in this format an infinite amount of times..
Even so, it's possible, if not probable that this cycle would happen exactly the same way every time.. Doesn't really make much of a difference either way..

iUseVi

Simon.d wrote: »

Even so, it's possible, if not probable that this cycle would happen exactly the same way every time..way..

Interesting, how do you come by this information? You seem very sure of yourself, are you Stephen Hawking in disguise?

From here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscillatory_universe

"John Archibald Wheeler, who believed that a closed universe was necessary on general principles, speculated that the fundamental physical constants could be re-processed to new values at each bounce, providing a mechanism for anthropic selection."

Simon.d

iUseVi wrote: »

Interesting, how do you come by this information? You seem very sure of yourself,..

Very unsure of everything actually! Haven't actually looked at any of the formal reading on this theory at all (outside of what I posted today), read a short bbc article about it a few years back, and it validated somewhat my own thoughts on the matter.. Just an Idea that makes sense to me, much more so than the more conventional theory of everything coming from nothing in a single big bang..

It's a comforting for there to be a rationally based probability that after death you'll be reunited with family, friends etc.

iUseVi

Simon.d wrote: »

Very unsure of everything actually! Haven't actually looked at any of the formal reading on this theory at all (outside of what I posted today), read a short bbc article about it a few years back, and it validated somewhat my own thoughts on the matter.. Just an Idea that makes sense to me, much more so than the more conventional theory of everything coming from nothing in a single big bang..

It's a comforting for there to be a rationally based probability that after death you'll be reunited with family, friends etc.

Comforting, yes, unfortunately comforting not = true

EDIT:still haven't got the hang of those smiley things

Zillah

Simon.d wrote: »

to be a rationally based probability that after death you'll be reunited with family

Is this still part of the circular universe thing or are you on something else now?

Simon.d

iUseVi wrote: »

Comforting, yes, unfortunately comforting not = true

What scientific theory is?

aidan24326

timetogetfit wrote: »

what happens when we die

What we do know is that when a person dies they no longer have the ability to interact with this world. As to whether there is some other realm of existence you are right in saying that we don't know. However we have no evidence at all for any such thing. None whatsoever. It is unclear as to what is even meant by saying that 'I' will be alive in some way after my earthly death. What will be alive? And in what form? Will my memory be intact? This is essential as without it you are not the same person at all in any meaningful sense.

As far as I am concerned it appears 99.999999% certain that when you die you are gone and that's that. The brain that gave rise to your conscious experience of the world ceases to function and with that goes your thoughts, your dreams, your memories and everything that makes your mind the individual entity that it is. I can see why people might invent all sorts of comforting fairytales to try to circumvent such a depressing outcome, and the realisation that we are probably nothing more than temporarily animated stardust. There is some consolation in knowing that it will not be frightening or painful or anything like that, it will be just nothing. An endless dreamless sleep.

Zillah

aidan24326 wrote: »

I can see why people might invent all sorts of comforting fairytales to try to circumvent such a depressing outcome, and the realisation that we are probably nothing more than temporarily animated stardust. There is some consolation in knowing that it will not be frightening or painful or anything like that, it will be just nothing. An endless dreamless sleep.

I was thinking about the nature of oblivion a while ago. I've decided that its the only ultimately fair result. If any particular religion was right then all the others were wrong, some people get justice, revenge, salvation etc, there's no conceivable way for everyone to be completely happy. So we all just cease to exist. You can't be happy, you can't be sad, you can't mourn your own death or that of others. Any and all conception of suffering is simply gone.

Fanny Cradock

Clearly you don't believe that the universe adheres to some sort of morality. So what, then, has fairness got to do with anything?

Zillah

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Clearly you don't believe that the universe adheres to some sort of morality. So what, then, has fairness got to do with anything?

Everyone is treated equally, no one is left with the reality of having been wrong, no one suffers anymore.

aidan24326

Zillah wrote: »

I was thinking about the nature of oblivion a while ago. I've decided that its the only ultimately fair result.

True. But then again the Universe doesn't really do 'fair'. In a way it's unfair that we are here in this life not having a clue of what it all means, or if indeed it actually means anything at all. But fair doesn't really come into it. Though given that the Universe appears cold and indifferent to our whims it appears likely that whatever our fate it will apply to us all equally, and oblivion is the only option that satisfies that.

If any particular religion was right then all the others were wrong, some people get justice, revenge, salvation etc, there's no conceivable way for everyone to be completely happy.

Unfortunately this appears not to trouble alot of religious people. Not one bit. It's amazing how so many followers of the 'loving and caring' religion that is Christianity are more than happy to see the rest of us burn so long as they are proved right.

Zillah

aidan24326 wrote: »

True. But then again the Universe doesn't really do 'fair'.

I do, in my own subjective way.

iUseVi

To think of all the billions of people throughout history that did not believe in the right religion that are going to hell -- compared to the special few that make it to heaven. And this is a just and good God? Not in my books.

An Fear Aniar

aidan24326 wrote: »

.....probably nothing more than temporarily animated stardust.

I like that expression.


.

Pompey Magnus

Zillah wrote: »

I was thinking about the nature of oblivion a while ago. I've decided that its the only ultimately fair result. If any particular religion was right then all the others were wrong, some people get justice, revenge, salvation etc, there's no conceivable way for everyone to be completely happy. So we all just cease to exist. You can't be happy, you can't be sad, you can't mourn your own death or that of others. Any and all conception of suffering is simply gone.

I completely agree, either let everyone into Heaven irregardless of belief or else no afterlife at all.

Imagine people were given a choice before being born between either living in a Universe with no God and all events were driven by fundamental laws of science and death was the absolute end of their existance or else they could be born into a seemingly identical Universe but which definitely had a God, however they are informed that there were a million different belief systems all with exactly the same evidence, if they pick the one right religion they will be enormously rewarded, pick any one of the numerous other wrong religions and they will suffer eternal torment and torture. How many people, believers or not, would choose the Universe with a jealous God? I would bet that the vast majority of Christians would prefer the atheistic Universe if all things were equal and they didn't have the benefit of being brought up in what they know for a fact as being the one correct religion.

Simon.d

The concept of heaven is quite scary if you think about it.. Imagine being conscious for an eternity, you'd go off your nut.. You'd have done everything an infinite amount of times, meaning heaven would inevitably turn into a version of hell.. You'd be trapped for an eternity doing some extremely monotonous tasks (i.e. existing)..

A finite full stop would be a much more pleasant ending to it all..

rowlandbrowner

agreed,
I'm trying to think of something fun to do for the long weekend and I'm finding that hard, an eternity of free time? no thanks.

Obni

Speaking of heaven....

This guy turns up at the pearly gates and is met by an angel.
"Come on in!!!" he's told, "All are welcome!"
"What?" He replied, "Don't you want to review my life and balance my good deeds and my sins?"
"Nah!" replied the smiling angel, "Everyone gets in."
He takes the man by the hand and leads him in to the sort of idyllic scene he'd only ever seen in Whams "Club Tropicana" video.
"Look" said the angel pointing, "There's Hitler play ping-pong with Gandhi"
"Even Hitler's here???", exclaimed the incredulous new arrival.
The angel explained, "When you die you are instantly confronted with the full list of all the bad things you ever did. For that instant, you experience all the horror and pain you caused during your life, the full measure of your guilt is laid bare, and you recognise the error of your ways, and then all is forgiven. You are then free to spend eternity in any way that makes you happy!"

The man wanders round greeting old friends and family for weeks, having the most wonderful time.

One day he comes running up to the angel, looking upset.
"Hey!" he said, "Look at this."
He brought the angel to an area enclosed by a high wall and locked by a huge iron-bound gate. From inside the voices of people could just be heard.
"I thought you said everyone was allowed to be happy here?"

"They are." said the angel, "That's just the catholics. They like to think they're the only ones here!"

Mr. CooL ICE

Do you know what next week's lotto numbers are? No? Neither do I, neither does anyone.

aidan24326

aidan24326 wrote:

.....probably nothing more than temporarily animated stardust.

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

I like that expression.

Carl Sagan gets the credit for that one.

RedXIV

Simon.d wrote: »

The concept of heaven is quite scary if you think about it.. Imagine being conscious for an eternity, you'd go off your nut.. You'd have done everything an infinite amount of times, meaning heaven would inevitably turn into a version of hell.. You'd be trapped for an eternity doing some extremely monotonous tasks (i.e. existing)..

A finite full stop would be a much more pleasant ending to it all..

But imagine partying for eternity! thats my idea. I've never had two parties end up the same, and with everyone in heaven, you'd be meeting new people all the time! Man, i hope there's a chugging contest too....

Zamboni

This is the only life we know.
I'd rather try to have it extended than imagine a false heaven.
I dig transhumanism meself

Spaceman Spiff

Death is just like it was before you were born.

Zombrex

Spaceman Spiff wrote: »

Death is just like it was before you were born.

What was that like? I don't remember

Pompey Magnus

Spaceman Spiff wrote: »

Death is just like it was before you were born.

You mean the early 1980s? Are you trying to tell me that I am doomed to spend eternity in pre-Celtic Tiger Ireland under Charlie Haughey :eek:.

Spaceman Spiff

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

You mean the early 1980s? Are you trying to tell me that I am doomed to spend eternity in pre-Celtic Tiger Ireland under Charlie Haughey :eek:.

Nobody ever said death was easy.