Child accidentally knocked down by Gardai

utick

A seven-year-old boy has been killed in north Dublin after being struck by an unmarked garda car being driven by a garda this morning.

The incident took place near Clearwater Shopping Centre at around 11am. The boy's body has been taken to Temple Street Children's Hospital.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0308/rta.html

bet they will be cleared too!

Collie D

Bit of a sensationalist thread title

Mr. Presentable

utick wrote: »

A seven-year-old boy has been killed in north Dublin after being struck by an unmarked garda car being driven by a garda this morning.

The incident took place near Clearwater Shopping Centre at around 11am. The boy's body has been taken to Temple Street Children's Hospital.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0308/rta.html

bet they will be cleared too!

Who's "they"?

I'm reporting the post for it's title. A tragic accident happened today. That's all.

Karoma

utick wrote: »

...

bet they will be cleared too!

A genuine comment based on the belief that they should be cleared because they were obeying traffic laws and a tragic accident happened? or is it a cynical remark based on the paranoid and dim-witted belief that 'da gards can get away with moordurrr' that completely ignores common sense, the Garda ombudsman, etc. ?

randylonghorn

Christ!

Poor kid!
Poor family!
Poor driver that has to live with this for the rest of his / her life!

r3nu4l

randylonghorn wrote: »

Christ!

Poor kid!
Poor family!
Poor driver that has to live with this for the rest of his / her life!

QFT, that's all!

@ OP, yawn!

Lockstep

Political Correctness Gone Mad!


NExt you'll be telling us that if a black man and white man both go for the same job, the black man will definetly get it.

Never mind that he's a street sweeper and the jobs neurosurgery.

Wishbone Ash

utick wrote: »

A seven-year-old boy has been killed in north Dublin after being struck by an unmarked garda car being driven by a garda this morning.

The incident took place near Clearwater Shopping Centre at around 11am. The boy's body has been taken to Temple Street Children's Hospital.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0308/rta.html

bet they will be cleared too!

Reported

connundrum

Its the second person killed in recent times by unmarked cars afaik. There was that young lad struck down on New Years Day?

Problem: Gardai drive too fast in residential areas
Solution: Stop Gardai from driving fast in residential areas

Catch 22 Situation: Then the Gardai won't catch the crims. What to do?

Terry

Thread title edited to more reflect the subject matter.

lostexpectation

thread title is arccurate if its the correct one.

Dyr

connundrum wrote: »

Its the second person killed in recent times by unmarked cars afaik. There was that young lad struck down on New Years Day?

Problem: Gardai drive too fast in residential areas
Solution: Stop Gardai from driving fast in residential areas

Catch 22 Situation: Then the Gardai won't catch the crims. What to do?

Deaths like these are not accidents if they're caused by reckless behaviour. I was nearly hit last year by a car that was being chased down lower abbey street by the gardai, only for the fella behind the wheel jammed on i would have been creamed. The gardai started a high speed car chase on a bank holday weekend through a packed city centre, thats idiocy not an "accident" and I object to the thread tile having the word "accident" contained in it until the details of just what happened in this incident become clear, If that ever happens of course.

Mr. Presentable

Bambi wrote: »

I was nearly hit last year by a car that was being chased down lower abbey street by the gardai, only for the fella behind the wheel jammed on i would have been creamed.

Not the fault of the Gardai. The guy should have stopped for the cops, he didn't and might have killed you! Yet you portray him as a hero, almost. Gaah!!

randylonghorn

Bambi wrote: »

Deaths like these are not accidents if they're caused by reckless behaviour. I was nearly hit last year by a car that was being chased down lower abbey street by the gardai, only for the fella behind the wheel jammed on i would have been creamed. The gardai started a high speed car chase on a bank holday weekend through a packed city centre, thats idiocy not an "accident"

And yet, if he had been involved in a robbery, let's say, and the guards had arrived on the scene and decided that as there were a lot of people on the streets it was too dangerous to attempt to follow him, I guarantee that it would have been treated as a national scandal not only by posters to Boards but in the media, etc.

Not trying to start an argument here, Bambi, but how do you suggest the Gardai reconcile these two conflicting imperatives:

(a) Chase down and apprehend criminals

(b) Avoid at all times driving in a manner which may involve some element of risk to civilians.

And will the criminal or suspected criminal undertake to abide by (b) as well?

(Btw, glad to hear you escaped injury.)

Bambi wrote: »

... and I object to the thread tile having the word "accident" contained in it until the details of just what happened in this incident become clear, If that ever happens of course.

Whatever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"?

Or does that just apply to everybody who is not a Garda?

You are implicitly assuming that simply because this was an unmarked police car the driver was in the wrong. We could just as easily assume that the child ran in front of the car with no warning. Either or both could be totally wrong. We don't know yet. Either way it is a tragedy for everyone involved.

Exit

Bambi wrote: »

I object to the thread tile having the word "accident" contained in it until the details of just what happened in this incident become clear, If that ever happens of course.

As in they may have purposely ran the child over?

Sherifu

Poor family. Tragedy.

utick

Exit wrote: »

As in they may have purposely ran the child over?

well originally i had the title as gardai killed 7 year old (because we dont yet know the circumstances), which could mean it was wrecklesness or simply an accident. to state it as an accident before you know the facts is being a little presumptious

Terry

Bambi wrote: »

Deaths like these are not accidents if they're caused by reckless behaviour. I was nearly hit last year by a car that was being chased down lower abbey street by the gardai, only for the fella behind the wheel jammed on i would have been creamed. The gardai started a high speed car chase on a bank holday weekend through a packed city centre, thats idiocy not an "accident" and I object to the thread tile having the word "accident" contained in it until the details of just what happened in this incident become clear, If that ever happens of course.

Objection noted.
I won't be changing it though.

You say you want it back to the original title until the details are known, yet the original title clearly implied that the Gardai were merciless killers, without the details being known.


I was nearly hit by both an ambulance and a fire truck on two seperate occasions.
Should they slow down and allow other to die because of the neglience of others, or should they keep sppeding and trying to save lives?

If a family member of yours was stabbed and their car then stolen, would you suggest the Gardai stick to the speed limit in their pursuit of the offender, or would you cheer them on as they chased the dick?

Terry

utick wrote: »

well originally i had the title as gardai killed 7 year old (because we dont yet know the circumstances), which could mean it was wrecklesness or simply an accident. to state it as an accident before you know the facts is being a little presumptious

I really doubt they aimed for the child.

eroo

Bambi wrote: »

Deaths like these are not accidents if they're caused by reckless behaviour. I was nearly hit last year by a car that was being chased down lower abbey street by the gardai, only for the fella behind the wheel jammed on i would have been creamed. The gardai started a high speed car chase on a bank holday weekend through a packed city centre, thats idiocy not an "accident" and I object to the thread tile having the word "accident" contained in it until the details of just what happened in this incident become clear, If that ever happens of course.

So the guy/girl driving the car(prob stolen)didn't start it by refusing to stop...your intelligence is beyond me.

tk123

The road was closed all day up there with diversions in place (from tescos down to prospect hill for anyone who knows the area). Is this the norm for every accident or just because the cops were involved??

Also OP without any disrespect to to family here but if it turns out they let their 7 year old child wander across a busy road to go and play in Tescos are you going to change the title of the post to 'Negligent Parents kill child' etc

tricky D

Terry wrote: »

If a family member of yours was stabbed and their car then stolen, would you suggest the Gardai stick to the speed limit in their pursuit of the offender, or would you cheer them on as they chased the dick?

Removing the emotional stuff in your phrasing, to what lengths should the Garda go to in order to apprehend someone? If a perp is not further endangering life, should the Garda not act proportionately by not endangering lives themselves and vice versa?

Modern policing has been moving to reduce high speed chases as too many were just unnecessary and simply dangerous.

That is said without prejudice to the original post, which suggests guilt before everything/anything and other lynch mob kinda stuff.

Most importantly RIP and condolences to the family.

Croc

tk123 wrote: »

The road was closed all day up there with diversions in place (from tescos down to prospect hill for anyone who knows the area). Is this the norm for every accident or just because the cops were involved??

Thats the norm its treated as a crime scene Forensic Collision Investigators etc are called in and the scene has to be kept as is until they are finished.

They are called in for
All Accidents Involving Death Or Serious Injury.
All Accidents Involving Life Changing Events.
All Accidents Involving Official Garda Vehicles Causing any sort of injury.

Terry

tricky D wrote: »

Removing the emotional stuff in your phrasing, to what lengths should the Garda go to in order to apprehend someone? If a perp is not further endangering life, should the Garda not act proportionately by not endangering lives themselves and vice versa?

Modern policing has been moving to reduce high speed chases as too many were just unnecessary and simply dangerous.

Ok, so what do you suggest?

Let's say the guy driving the car has just robbed the car for joyriding.

How do you propose the Gardai act?

Do they allow the thief to continue driving recklessly?
Do they chase down the thief?
Do they ignore the whole thing?
Do they put all their resources into catching the thief, thus ignoring other crimes being comitted at the same time and incurring the wrath of someone who has just be given a kick in the head?

Winters

tricky D wrote: »

Modern policing has been moving to reduce high speed chases as too many were just unnecessary and simply dangerous.

Yes however nearly all the police who practice this will have a police helicopter all ready over head so as they can reduce speed, fall back and let the chopper follow the criminals and report back.

The Gardai are some what limited with their one helicopter based in Baldonnel and inability to call it out whenever they need it.

I grew up living on a main road. I always knew never to cross it unless it was clear and I definitly would never have crossed it if I could hear a Garda car coming. I live right on a blind bend and they Gardai do come speeding around it very fast. There are no doubt circumstances to this accident as there are with all of them. You can argue that they should not have been going so fast, but would you want them never to engage in a high speed pursuit and let every fast driving criminal to go free? But you can also argue that the child should have been under supervision of adults and not on a main road etc. etc. ? And so on and so forth.

Dyr

eroo wrote: »

your intelligence is beyond me.

Evidently so. Maybe someone else will enlighten you though

Terry

Winters wrote: »

Yes however nearly all the police who practice this will have a police helicopter all ready over head so as they can reduce speed, fall back and let the chopper follow the criminals and report back.

The Gardai are some what limited with their one helicopter based in Baldonnel and inability to call it out whenever they need it.

I grew up living on a main road. I always knew never to cross it unless it was clear and I definitly would never have crossed it if I could hear a Garda car coming. I live right on a blind bend and they Gardai do come speeding around it very fast. There are no doubt circumstances to this accident as there are with all of them. You can argue that they should not have been going so fast, but would you want them never to engage in a high speed pursuit and let every fast driving criminal to go free? But you can also argue that the child should have been under supervision of adults and not on a main road etc. etc. ? And so on and so forth.

How dare you.
That poor child etc.

Winters has a point here.
Make sure your children are safe and you have little to worry about.

Fair enough, children do wander off and you can't watch them constantly.
I am in no way blaming the parents of this child for his unfortunate death.

The thing is, it was an accident. They happen.
Blaming the Gardai is just trying to stir up emotions and get peple riled up.
This will solve absolutely nothing at all.
It won't bring the child back from the dead.

I lost my own father to a hit an run motorcyclist.
At first I was all 'I'm gonna kill everyone I see on a motorbike'. Then I calmed down and looked at things rationally. I realised that not every motorcyclist is to blame. Just one wanker.
This is pretty much the same here.
If the Garda was careless, then he is guilty. This does not mean that all Gardai are careless.
We don't even know the full story yet, so pointing fingers and villifying the Gardai is really fúcking retarded.

tricky D

With a reasonable proportion of aggression and restraint appropriate to the circumstances. My point is that the perception that all chases need to finished quickly is lacking. You'll find no support for such crassness as calling for high speed chases to be banned from me. I'm just interested in proportional and appropriate response. I have no interest in pointing fingers (I never did) at the Garda until the investigated facts are known and support that.

Steve

With respect to the Guards and the $hite job they have to do:
What gets me is Guards (in the course of duty) are immune to the road traffic act. i.e. speeding, dangerous driving, running lights.

Fine, if they were trained how to drive, most aren't, they are driving on standard licenses same as joe average.

randylonghorn

tricky D wrote: »

With a reasonable proportion of aggression and restraint appropriate to the circumstances. My point is that the perception that all chases need to finished quickly is lacking. You'll find no support for such crassness as calling for high speed chases to be banned from me. I'm just interested in proportional and appropriate response.

Who decides what's "proportional"?
Who decides what's "appropriate"?
How much time do they have to decide it?
Who decides whether they're right or wrong?

I would bet you any money that the exact same decision will be proportional, appropriate and ultimately "right" if the criminal is apprehended and no-one comes to harm, and disproportional, inappropriate and ultimately "wrong" if someone is injured ... or even if no-one is injured but the perp gets away.

I'm glad I'm not stuck behind that wheel trying to squint into the future and make that decision, tbh.

EDIT: Steve, I would certainly argue for the highest possible standard of driver training for all gardai.

Terry

tricky D wrote: »

With a reasonable proportion of aggression and restraint appropriate to the circumstances. My point is that the perception that all chases need to finished quickly is lacking. You'll find no support for such crassness as calling for high speed chases to be banned from me. I'm just interested in proportional and appropriate response. I have no interest in pointing fingers (I never did) at the Garda until the investigated facts are known and support that.

Right, so you are telling us that it is all down to the circumstances of each situation.
This isn't America. We don't have an O.J. Simpson to do a low speed chase for us.

If the cops are chasing someone, you can be guaranteed that the person being chased is going to travel at high speeds in order to try to escape.
The appropriate response is to drive faster in order to catch them.

There's a reason we are told to cross the road safely and when there is no traffic.
It's because we might get knocked down.

There is no way to account for the variable of a rogue driver. Therefore, you take the recommended precautions.
It's not rocket science.

Croc

stevec wrote: »

With respect to the Guards and the $hite job they have to do:
What gets me is Guards (in the course of duty) are immune to the road traffic act. i.e. speeding, dangerous driving, running lights.

Where did you get that idea from Steve, totally misinformed comment

Overheal

Would the unmarked car have had a siren system installed?

MrJoeSoap

Overheal wrote: »

Would the unmarked car have had a siren system installed?

More than likely.

Why, in the name of all that is good and holy, do Garda drivers not have to do driving training? It's probably not relevant to this particular incident, I don't know, but isn't it just like giving an ordinary member of the public, with their driving experience, the permission (under blue lights) to break speed limits and drive dangerously.

randylonghorn

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

Why, in the name of all that is good and holy, do Garda drivers not have to do driving training?

Em ... are we sure they don't?

I don't know one way or the other, tbh ... I have a vague sense in my head of hearing about an "advanced" course for certain squads / drivers, but I have no idea whether additional training is provided for all Gardai or not.

And wasn't this thread locked??

Sherifu

randylonghorn wrote: »

And wasn't this thread locked??

Yup.

cson

Afaik, some of them don't even have a full licence. They drive on "Supers" or something like that, a note from their regional Superintendent I think. The mind boggles.

MrJoeSoap

randylonghorn wrote: »

Em ... are we sure they don't?

Positive. One of my best mates is in the force, crashed a squad car whilst under blues two weeks ago, hasn't done any training more than you or I would do.

When I told my dad (also a Gard) about this crash earlier, he nearly lost the plot. He had to do two weeks driving training in Templemore when he entered the force in the 70's. Reckons theres a definite relationship between the number of increased crashes involving Gardai and the lack of training. Hard to argue otherwise.

MrJoeSoap

cson wrote: »

Afaik, some of them don't even have a full licence. They drive on "Supers" or something like that, a note from their regional Superintendent I think. The mind boggles.

I think they might have to have a full license, but you are 100% right about "supers". I'll have to check re: the license.

Overheal

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

Positive. One of my best mates is in the force, crashed a squad car whilst under blues two weeks ago, hasn't done any training more than you or I would do.

When I told my dad (also a Gard) about this crash earlier, he nearly lost the plot. He had to do two weeks driving training in Templemore when he entered the force in the 70's. Reckons theres a definite relationship between the number of increased crashes involving Gardai and the lack of training. Hard to argue otherwise.

I'd take this up with the press tbh just so they can start making a public inquest.

MrJoeSoap

Overheal wrote: »

I'd take this up with the press tbh just so they can start making a public inquest.

I don't know too much about the crash today yet. I'll have a read of tomorrows papers and see what they say first.

Winters

Overheal wrote: »

Would the unmarked car have had a siren system installed?

Yes.

Usually unmarked cars have flashing lights in the front of the car and another one on the dash and rear window afaik

randylonghorn

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

When I told my dad (also a Gard) about this crash earlier, he nearly lost the plot. He had to do two weeks driving training in Templemore when he entered the force in the 70's. Reckons theres a definite relationship between the number of increased crashes involving Gardai and the lack of training. Hard to argue otherwise.

Well, I wouldn't be jumping to conclusions about this morning's incident without more info ... but otherwise I agree completely with your father.

MrJoeSoap

randylonghorn wrote: »

Well, I wouldn't be jumping to conclusions about this morning's incident without more info ... but otherwise I agree completely with your father.

Nah I'm the same, but regardless of whether or not todays tragedy involved any speed or dangerous driving, the situation has to be addressed immediately because it is only a matter of time until the next death occurs.

Anyone have Joe Duffys number?

Cookie_Monster

utick wrote: »

well originally i had the title as gardai killed 7 year old (because we dont yet know the circumstances), which could mean it was wrecklesness or simply an accident. to state it as an accident before you know the facts is being a little presumptious

I think that is a valid title. There is a difference between "killing" and "murder", the driver of the car killed the child, regardless of whether it was an accident or not.

MrJoeSoap

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I think that is a valid title. There is a difference between "killing" and "murder", the driver of the car killed the child, regardless of whether it was an accident or not.

There is nothing wrong with it in the sense that it is "technically" correct, but its sensationalist and unneccesary. The current title is more apt, I feel.

Cantab.

It's statistically likely the Garda was driving too fast. I'd like to see the Garda's excuse if he was indeed driving with excessive risk.

Could be a career stopper.

Cookie_Monster

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with it in the sense that it is "technically" correct, but its sensationalist and unneccesary. The current title is more apt, I feel.

Yes it's technically correct, how does this make it sensationalist? A fact is a fact.

Sensationalist is what it will look like it The Sun tomorrow, splashed all over the front page in big letters.

MrJoeSoap

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Yes it's technically correct, how does this make it sensationalist? A fact is a fact.

Because if I saw a thread entitled "Gardai killed 7 year old", I would immediately get the impression that there was some form of intent or malice. It is exactly the type of thing I'd expect from a tabloid newspaper.

There is nothing wrong with the current thread title.

randylonghorn

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Yes it's technically correct, how does this make it sensationalist? A fact is a fact.

"X kills Y" is seldom read as "X accidentally kills Y" or even "X kills Y (probably accidentally)" in my experience ...

... possibly because "technically correct" English has been so badly subverted by the media over the years that we are all sub-consciously trained to expect the most sensationalist meaning!

Cookie_Monster

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with the current thread title.

How many Garda(i) were driving the car?