The Irish Airsoft Association Thread

Boston

Firstly I may be out of order starting this thread and I acknowledge that, however I feel its only a matter of time before someone starts a similar thread to this and if a thread is going to exist, its far better its started by someone without an axe to grind.

What is the IAA
quote From http://irishairsoft.ie

"The IAA or Irish Airsoft Association is an organisation which has been set up as the governing body for the sport of airsoft in Ireland.
The reason for its creation is to lay down guidelines for retailers, venues and players in order to ensure that the sport continues to grow and is enjoyed in a safe and responsible manner."


What this thread is for
Keeping this post in mind, I see this thread as a place on boards for all players to discuss any issue surrounding the IAA in a civil manner. A place for both positive and negative feedback designed to supplement rather than replace or interfere with the official methods for given feedback. Additionally as a place to ask questions about current policies and activities , again not to replace the official channels.


How to post
I propose that everyone posting on this thread declare at the start what their affiliation with the IAA is and other information relevant to their arguments. That should avoid some of the accusations thrown around in the previous thread.


I appreciate that some people don't want to discuss these matters on this forum and thats fine. I would hope that these people would simply ignore this thread. I also request that the thread be kept on topic.

Boston

I'd like to request information about the IAA players league.

IAA member.
Dublin located.
HRTA skirmisher.
No team association.

CrazyRabbit

A suggestion for the IAA to consider if financially and technically feasble:

Future AGM's/EGM's should perhaps be virtual meetings....i.e, webcams with an authenticated website based voting system etc. Items that need to be voted on can be placed on the IAA forum to allow all sides to put forward their points of view. Then during the AGM/EGM each item can be voted on.

For AGM's:
1. Issues to be voted on are posted on IAA Forum using as neutral language as possible.
2. One week is given for everyone to post their views in response.
3. Virtual AGM meeting held.
4. Voting is opened for 48 hours, or for the duration of the AGM meeting...whichever is required.
5. Results are posted on the IAA forum.

For EGM's:
Same as for AGM's but obviously it may not be possible to give one week to review the issue and voting may need to be closed after a much shorter period of time (perhaps by the end of the EGM meeting)

Reason for above:
With members throughout Ireland, and many of whom don't have their own transport, it can be difficult or expensive to attend a meeting in a central physical location. Also, a website voting system allows greater input by the players on how to tackle situations or developments.

Boston

So two points there then,
1) E voting
2) Virtual meetings streamed on the internet with people able to interact using webcams and the like.

With regards to E-voting Authenticated web based voting systems are difficult to build and maintain. Its not really the type of thing you could do without spending a lot of money. There are problems with how do you insure that the person voting is who they claim to be and that no one can interfere with it. Its certainly possible to do, but someone would want to volunteer to do it.

As for virtual meetings, the greater the complexity of something the harder it is to organise.

Lemming

E-voting will cost a significant amount of money to implement whether anyone thinks it or not. Before you even get into the time required to build a system, you will need the use of a CA * to control and allow authentication of digital certificates that people are issued with. That costs money.

I'll also add the cynical point that if e-voting wasn't difficult to implement, why are countries around the world still using paper-voting and why haven't any effective, reliable e-voting systems come to the fore?


As an alternative suggestion a two-way postal vote system might work. Members post in their vote for whatever it is they're voting on along with stating who they are and their IAA membership number. The IAA then rings their contact phone number to verify what was sent; perhaps asking one or two personal questions e.g. what's your home address, date-of-birth, etc.


* Certificate Authority

CrazyRabbit

Boston wrote: »

So two points there then,
1) E voting
2) Virtual meetings streamed on the internet with people able to interact using webcams and the like.

With regards to E-voting Authenticated web based voting systems are difficult to build and maintain. Its not really the type of thing you could do without spending a lot of money. There are problems with how do you insure that the person voting is who they claim to be and that no one can interfere with it. Its certainly possible to do, but someone would want to volunteer to do it.

As for virtual meetings, the greater the complexity of something the harder it is to organise.

This forum has secure e-voting already. When you create a poll, there is the option "Make votes public: Displays all users who voted, and what choice they voted for." This can be used to authenticate results (only votes by registered members are counted). Surely a similar voting structure could be placed on the IAA website?
Furthermore, the voting page/forum could be password protected with the common userid/password only being given to IAA members with explicit instructions not to share it. Even I can password protect a webpage and I'm useless at web design.

EDIT: We don't need Security Certificates and any complex super secure evoting system. I don't think anyone is going to go through the hassle of hacking a website to change a view votes on a topic of airsoft.

Puding

Another option is for a simple conference call system, each regain has a meeting at the same time hosted by the local IAA rep (i know only cork has one at the moment but no need for it not to carry on across all county's), voting on any issues would be held securely thought the rep and the results would be then returned by the rep, with the advent of skype and of systems this may be a more cost effective method.

Lemming

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

This forum has secure e-voting already. When you create a poll, there is the option "Make votes public: Displays all users who voted, and what choice they voted for." This can be used to authenticate results (only votes by registered members are counted). Surely a similar voting structure could be placed on the IAA website?
Furthermore, the voting page/forum could be password protected with the common userid/password only being given to IAA members with explicit instructions not to share it. Even I can password protect a webpage and I'm useless at web design.

Actually no. It's not secure. One of the key points of a secure system is the concept of non-repudiation. Especially for something like voting.

As for your edited comment .. you'd be surprised. Hell, look at the hassle caused by a vote of hands a couple of months ago by people who didn't show up? Now imagine the mud-slinging, bickering, and general devisiveness that can be caused by an insecure e-vote by someone who feels aggreived?

CrazyRabbit

Hmm..instead of evoting, then how about votes being counted in a live chat? All we need is a common chat tool that is secure..like Skype chat. Free to use/setup.

Basically, I'm looking for any solution that doesn't involve having to go to a physical location.

Chats, e-voting, e-meeting etc.

Boston

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

This forum has secure e-voting already. When you create a poll, there is the option "Make votes public: Displays all users who voted, and what choice they voted for." This can be used to authenticate results (only votes by registered members are counted). Surely a similar voting structure could be placed on the IAA website?
Furthermore, the voting page/forum could be password protected with the common userid/password only being given to IAA members with explicit instructions not to share it. Even I can password protect a webpage and I'm useless at web design.

EDIT: We don't need Security Certificates and any complex super secure evoting system. I don't think anyone is going to go through the hassle of hacking a website to change a view votes on a topic of airsoft.

I have to say rabbit, lemming is right. The type of poll you have here would not be secure in any sense of the word and would certainly be open to accusations of abuse. I would have absolutely no faith in a democratic process of any kind based on that type of evoting. Additionally there wouldn't be an option for a private ballet.

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Hmm..instead of evoting, then how about votes being counted in a live chat? All we need is a common chat tool that is secure..like Skype chat. Free to use/setup.

Basically, I'm looking for any solution that doesn't involve having to go to a physical location.

Chats, e-voting, e-meeting etc.

You're still in a situation where everyone in the chat room can see what way people vote. Also Chat rooms with a lot of people can get very messy and difficult to follow.

Puding wrote: »

Another option is for a simple conference call system, each regain has a meeting at the same time hosted by the local IAA rep (i know only cork has one at the moment but no need for it not to carry on across all county's), voting on any issues would be held securely thought the rep and the results would be then returned by the rep, with the advent of skype and of systems this may be a more cost effective method.

Phone in vote definitely has merit. I think the postal vote is definitely the way forward. If a lot of people take that up, there may be merit into looking into an evoting or phone in system to make it easier to vote.

ED E

Puding wrote: »

Another option is for a simple conference call system, each regain has a meeting at the same time hosted by the local IAA rep (i know only cork has one at the moment but no need for it not to carry on across all county's), voting on any issues would be held securely thought the rep and the results would be then returned by the rep, with the advent of skype and of systems this may be a more cost effective method.

That sounds good to me.

IAA Junior Member
Dublin Based
HRTA
Team "//Undecided name//"

Lemming

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Hmm..instead of evoting, then how about votes being counted in a live chat? All we need is a common chat tool that is secure..like Skype chat. Free to use/setup.

Basically, I'm looking for any solution that doesn't involve having to go to a physical location.

Chats, e-voting, e-meeting etc.

Again, the same applies to skype - it isn't secure. Anything e-related is inherently not secure. Even my postal process has flaws but the idea is to minimise probability by introducing as many people as possible to the process meaning that multiple people would have to be in collusion to effect cheating.

Far smarter people than you or I have attempted to deal with e-voting (and bank rolled by governments around the world) and still failed.

Streaming an AGM or what-not is a pretty good idea. The only issue concerns something like an AGM vote which is pretty serious, unlike say voting to decide if a road-trip to a venue is held this week or that week for example.



Edit: I'm currently working on a masters thesis in a very related field (I wont say what exactly) and it may be possible to create a simplified system although a CA would still be needed. The exact costs I'm not sure of. There are other highly important questions to address so it really isn't an open-and-shut easy-peasy scenario. And tbh, if I created this, I'd copyright the b*stard.

kdouglas

Boston wrote: »

I'd like to request information about the IAA players league.

IAA member.
Dublin located.
HRTA skirmisher.
No team association.

If your talking about the Irish Players Airsoft League, that is not an IAA league, it is organised by a group of individuals, however it is IAA affiliated/approved/thumbs up'd and the IAA will be providing marshall training under it's marshall training program which is being set up.

Regarding a league organised directly by the IAA, as far as i am aware it has been put on hold for now as there is not enough activity to justify having two seperate leagues

kdouglas

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

A suggestion for the IAA to consider if financially and technically feasble:

Future AGM's/EGM's should perhaps be virtual meetings....i.e, webcams with an authenticated website based voting system etc. Items that need to be voted on can be placed on the IAA forum to allow all sides to put forward their points of view. Then during the AGM/EGM each item can be voted on.

For AGM's:
1. Issues to be voted on are posted on IAA Forum using as neutral language as possible.
2. One week is given for everyone to post their views in response.
3. Virtual AGM meeting held.
4. Voting is opened for 48 hours, or for the duration of the AGM meeting...whichever is required.
5. Results are posted on the IAA forum.

For EGM's:
Same as for AGM's but obviously it may not be possible to give one week to review the issue and voting may need to be closed after a much shorter period of time (perhaps by the end of the EGM meeting)

Reason for above:
With members throughout Ireland, and many of whom don't have their own transport, it can be difficult or expensive to attend a meeting in a central physical location. Also, a website voting system allows greater input by the players on how to tackle situations or developments.

Personally i don't see e-voting ever being an option, governments have spent millions trying to do e-voting and still been unsuccesful, although our security requirements are not the same, the internet is inherently insecure and it would just not be a viable option, postal voting would be the best option in this case.

Boston

kdouglas wrote: »

If your talking about the Irish Players Airsoft League, that is not an IAA league, it is organised by a group of individuals, however it is IAA affiliated/approved/thumbs up'd and the IAA will be providing marshall training under it's marshall training program which is being set up.

Regarding a league organised directly by the IAA, as far as i am aware it has been put on hold for now as there is not enough activity to justify having two seperate leagues

Ah ok, I didn't know the IAA one was on hold.

CrazyRabbit

How about email based voting?

Ok, I know emails can be spoofed easily but if the email contained a passcode unique for each member, then it shouldn't be a problem.

So, a person registers their email address with the IAA for the purpose of voting. The IAA issues that person with a unique passcode. When email votes are recieved, the passcode is verified.

If the IAA voting email inbox was being viewed in Lotus Notes, the whole counting process/verification process can be automated. I've created a similar system in work.

Boston

If people used a public / private key email system that would work (which is what you're kinda getting at). That would remove the need for a ca but you would still need a trusted third party. It would also require the user to have a certain level of technical knowledge as they would have to generate their public and private keys.

ED E

TBH that kind of system would seem to cause a lot of hassle. Why not have IAA regional Reps having verification codes for the players in their area. They are given out face to face (sealed envelope) and when it comes to voting they call in, give their, name, address and code and then their vote. Any problems with that?

Hivemind187

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

TBH that kind of system would seem to cause a lot of hassle. Why not have IAA regional Reps having verification codes for the players in their area. They are given out face to face (sealed envelope) and when it comes to voting they call in, give their, name, address and code and then their vote. Any problems with that?

Unfortunately about a thousand things.

Firstly, you would need to have second copies of each code, you would need to know who those codes were given to and to be absolutely certain that they were given to the correct people AND that those people understand how the system works.

Second, you would need multiple phone lines to cope with the volume of calls and ensure that everyone was heard within a certain ammount of time.

Third, votes for what? Ratifying changes to the constitution? Seconding motions tabled by members? Votes on the committee member positions? There is no way of knowing in advance how many votes would be needed and even if you did (likely a dozen at least) that creates a massive ammount of calling, people to answer those phones, some way of keeping everyone up to date with what is happening at any given moment in the AGM, not to mention the expense.

See the thing is, that while video conferencing, VoIP and the myriad other suggestions that have been made are entirely valid in the microcosm in which they are considered they all have fatal flaws which make them unviable. Believe me when I tell you that I had considered every conceivable option for the first agm and it always, unnerringly, came back to the simplest method.

You turn up. You can vote.

You don't turn up. You can't.

It's no different to any AGM held by any business or any other club. The business is conducted at the agm and that is the defacto vote. Everything else adds a layer of complication, time etc and instead of a single day of an AGM we wind up stretching it out over 3-4 weeks while votes come in by post or people make up their minds to phone in or the techies can sort out the inevitable problems that come when you deploy a large scale fuzzy project across non-standardised infrastructure (aka teach idiots like me how you use a computer).

I'm genuinely not trying to shoot down all the ideas, I'm just saying that the options were considered and that there is a reason why other organisations don't attempt to implement a lot of these ideas. It's because they dont work.

The only viable option is as follows.

The committee will judge where the best locations is based on the following criteria 1) Cost 2) Accessibility to the highest number of people 3) Capacity 4) Availability.

If needs be, coaches etc can be looked into as a means of transporting people from outlying areas to the location of the AGM.

Remember, the IAA is operated in a shoe string, the costs to this point have been covered by either the committee themselves out of their own pockets or by the extremely kind donations from certain community pillars. Adding additional costs on top of the existing ones for additional systems is not going to help anyone and there is no need to do it when a simpler, more logical solution exists.

Dar

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

TBH that kind of system would seem to cause a lot of hassle. Why not have IAA regional Reps having verification codes for the players in their area. They are given out face to face (sealed envelope) and when it comes to voting they call in, give their, name, address and code and then their vote. Any problems with that?

The thing about voting systems is, the more complicated you make them, the easier they are to manipulate. You just can't do that when its a room full of people and a show hands, or even a private ballot where everyone can see the ballots being collected, shuffled and counted.

ED E

Yeah. We just need to get the most peolpe to the AGM. Car Pools FTW.

Hivemind187

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

Yeah. We just need to get the most peolpe to the AGM. Car Pools FTW.

+1 Thats using your noodle.

CrazyRabbit

I'm a fairly decent Lotus Notes developer. I know that I can take the standard mail template and add in some script that will extract a passphrase from an incoming email, compare it against a list of known users/passphrases and then verify the sender. Similar code then records the vote. It's very doable, completely free, fully automated and totally secure.

If you are not familiar with Lotus Notes, I can see how this won't make much sense to you. Lotus Notes is completely programmable with domino designer, lotus script, javascript, and C++. You can do pretty much whatever you want with it so long as you have some programming skills and the built in security is excellent.

I helped create a fairly similar system in work and it passed all internal ISO security requirements.

ED E

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

I'm a fairly decent Lotus Notes developer. I know that I can take the standard mail template and add in some script that will extract a passphrase from an incoming email, compare it against a list of known users/passphrases and then verify the sender. Similar code then records the vote. It's very doable, completely free, fully automated and totally secure.

If you are not familiar with Lotus Notes, I can see how this won't make much sense to you. Lotus Notes is completely programmable with domino designer, lotus script, javascript, and C++. You can do pretty much whatever you want with it so long as you have some programming skills and the built in security is excellent.

I helped create a fairly similar system in work and it passed all internal ISO security requirements.

Apart from how do we ensure security on the part of the POP/SMTP provider? I know they are never gonna want to mess witht votes but the fact is, they have the capability. If someone is unhappy about a result they could call foulf play and kick up an unholy mess.

Just need to pick a spot smack bang in the middle of the country, then organise a bus from dublin, and possibly galway, and everyone else who intends on going can post where they are, if they have transport, and if there are free seats up for grabs. It would mean getting my dad to drive...oh wait, I'll be able to drive by then, WOOT. That leaves 4 spaces that I could take. Others could easily do the same.

I.A.S. Ltd.

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

Aoh wait, I'll be able to drive by then, WOOT. That leaves 4 spaces that I could take. Others could easily do the same.

Not if its after June you wont cos you'll be on a provisional license.

CrazyRabbit

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

Apart from how do we ensure security on the part of the POP/SMTP provider? I know they are never gonna want to mess witht votes but the fact is, they have the capability. If someone is unhappy about a result they could call foulf play and kick up an unholy mess.

Just need to pick a spot smack bang in the middle of the country, then organise a bus from dublin, and possibly galway, and everyone else who intends on going can post where they are, if they have transport, and if there are free seats up for grabs. It would mean getting my dad to drive...oh wait, I'll be able to drive by then, WOOT. That leaves 4 spaces that I could take. Others could easily do the same.

A conspiracy by ISP's to modify the results of a vote on airsoft.

Ok, this has officially become nuts.

To everyone, what the hell is up with all the negativity?

Boston

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

I'm a fairly decent Lotus Notes developer. I know that I can take the standard mail template and add in some script that will extract a passphrase from an incoming email, compare it against a list of known users/passphrases and then verify the sender. Similar code then records the vote. It's very doable, completely free, fully automated and totally secure.

If you are not familiar with Lotus Notes, I can see how this won't make much sense to you. Lotus Notes is completely programmable with domino designer, lotus script, javascript, and C++. You can do pretty much whatever you want with it so long as you have some programming skills and the built in security is excellent.

I helped create a fairly similar system in work and it passed all internal ISO security requirements.

You volunteering to write the software to do this for the IAA and admin it? Anything sent in plain txt is not secure.

Just need to pick a spot smack bang in the middle of the country, then organise a bus from dublin, and possibly galway, and everyone else who intends on going can post where they are, if they have transport, and if there are free seats up for grabs. It would mean getting my dad to drive...oh wait, I'll be able to drive by then, WOOT. That leaves 4 spaces that I could take. Others could easily do the same.

Why the middle of Ireland? Similar organisations move their agm around the country year by year to locations with high membership. If 90% of member of in Dublin and the rest in cork and galway, why have an meeting in carlow?

ED E

Boston wrote: »

Why the middle of Ireland? Similar organisations move their agm around the country year by year to locations with high membership. If 90% of member of in Dublin and the rest in cork and galway, why have an meeting in carlow?

One reason, to stop them(rural players) having a reason to moan.

Lemming

Lethal_Bullet wrote: »

One reason, to stop them(rural players) having a reason to moan.

Hang about - that's a fairly inflamatory comment Lethal. But on topic, using that as a justification for a meeting location is pretty poor and tbh, pandering to a perceived minority.

As said, if the majority of members are in location 'x', then it makes sense to have the majority of meetings in location 'x'. Where a couple of locations might have similar numbers a courtesy system of taking turn and turn about might be appropriate then.

So for everyone who has been complaining, are you members yet? If not .... stop complaining since you wouldn't be allowed into an AGM anyway.

ED E

Lemming wrote: »

Hang about - that's a fairly inflamatory comment Lethal. But on topic, using that as a justification for a meeting location is pretty poor and tbh, pandering to a perceived minority.

As said, if the majority of members are in location 'x', then it makes sense to have the majority of meetings in location 'x'. Where a couple of locations might have similar numbers a courtesy system of taking turn and turn about might be appropriate then.

So for everyone who has been complaining, are you members yet? If not .... stop complaining since you wouldn't be allowed into an AGM anyway.

I agree, it makes sense to have it close to a guesstimated 75% of the members but if doing that is gonna cause feuds like the other thread, I just thought it'd be simpler. Maybe do it on the outskirts of the city, so less travel time for the rural players but not adding too much for the dubs among us.

iceage

Iceage.
I.A.A member.
Location: Tipperary.
Skirmished: S.A.C.
Team:The Sigma Group.

This is all really interesting, As a rural Airsofter.....Surely we should all be trying to make others skirmishers more welcome, especially those who haven't registered with the I.A.A. and not be discussing them as if their not listening/watching this post. The location at this time is a bit unrelevent, when is the next AGM?

Hivemind187

iceage wrote: »

Iceage.
I.A.A member.
Location: Tipperary.
Skirmished: S.A.C.
Team:The Sigma Group.

This is all really interesting, As a rural Airsofter.....Surely we should all be trying to make others skirmishers more welcome, especially those who haven't registered with the I.A.A. and not be discussing them as if their not listening/watching this post. The location at this time is a bit unrelevent, when is the next AGM?

Some time around December 12th.

Anyway, the AGM is held in a location suitable to membership statisitics, not based on perceived location of the majority of airsofters. Please note the difference between "someone who plays arisoft" and "member of the IAA".

Cheers.

Ronan Lowe
Aka Hivemind
Acting Chairman of the IAA
Autodidact extrodinaire.

monksavage

I am not a member of your organization but am interested.
Im based in the south east and play a good bit of airsoft with at least 10 others at any given time on a well known paintball site near wexford.

What can the IAA offer to us if we wanted to become fully paid members?

iceage

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Some time around December 12th.

Anyway, the AGM is held in a location suitable to membership statisitics, not based on perceived location of the majority of airsofters. Please note the difference between "someone who plays arisoft" and "member of the IAA".

Cheers.

Ronan Lowe
Aka Hivemind
Acting Chairman of the IAA
Autodidact extrodinaire.

thanks Hivemind, you've clarified the difference between someone who plays Airsoft and members. I just thought that we all should be more interested in attracting more Airsofters to become members, or was that just me.:D

Hivemind187

iceage wrote: »

thanks Hivemind, you've clarified the difference between someone who plays Airsoft and members. I just thought that we all should be more interested in attracting more Airsofters to become members, or was that just me.:D

Iceage, I wasnt being a complete tool. There seems to be a lot of assuming going on in all of this and I was simply reminding people of the distinction.

Boston

iceage wrote: »

thanks Hivemind, you've clarified the difference between someone who plays Airsoft and members. I just thought that we all should be more interested in attracting more Airsofters to become members, or was that just me.:D

An agm isn't and shouldn't be a show piece the attract new members.

Hivemind187

monksavage wrote: »

I am not a member of your organization but am interested.
Im based in the south east and play a good bit of airsoft with at least 10 others at any given time on a well known paintball site near wexford.

What can the IAA offer to us if we wanted to become fully paid members?

At the moment we are in the final stages of implementing the ID Cards for members and there are some "fringe benefits" that may become public very soon if they come to pass.

The purpose of the IAA is to provide a national body to represent the hobby/sport to the authorities and the media while encouraging the growth and direction of airsoft.

This all sounds very idealist but the truth is that we have to work within the system we have in Ireland to protect Airsoft, to do this the IAA need the support of the people who take part. Without it we can not expect retailers or venues to have any specific reason (other than the fact that many of them are players and collectors) to adhere to regulations. Regulations arent there to screw people, they are there to protect everyone.

It has been said a number of times, we either govern ourselves or w will be governed by the authorities.

The IAA is also a democratic organisation, which means though the elected committee will make most of the decisions on the small issues and deal with the majority of the work (as is the point of elected representatives) it is open to change and should you feel you need to be represented by someone other than the current committee then you can run or nominate someone for the job. The vote will be taken and who knows? They might even get in.

The long and the short, the IAA gives all members a voice in how the world of Airsoft is run.

If you have any questions though man please drop the Community Liaison Officer a line at clo@irishairsoft.ie and visit the website at www.irishairsoft.ie

Thanks,

Ronan

Gizmodeon

To be honest I understand the problem people have with the AGM being based in Dublin.
I know it's not central, but Dublin is the easiest place to get to. There is direct buses to Dublin city in most counties, not everyone has cars and I know even with carpools some people are left out. They leave out people who have to take public transport, which is unfair especially for any junior members.

Getting a bus to somewhere more central, might mean getting 2 buses where as there is plenty of direct buses to Dublin. Also there is plenty of train services.
And besides the fact that it might take a few hours to get there if you are coming from a long distance, at the end of the day the AGM is once a year.
There is plenty of airsofters based in Dublin that can probably offer a spare bed too.

gandalf

Lads why complicate things with postal voting or email voting. The AGM should be a physical meeting as Giz said Dublin would probably be best as all the transportation links lead here but I would not be averse to attending anywhere in the country given proper notice.

This year there should be at least 2 months notice to give everyone the opportunity to take time off, arrange transportation, bribe wifes, girlfriends, boyfriends, children!!!

Hivemind187

gandalf wrote: »

This year there should be at least 2 months notice to give everyone the opportunity to take time off, arrange transportation, bribe wifes, girlfriends, boyfriends, children!!!

It's Annual. Chances are it will be held at around the same time as last year which was December 12th if I'm not mistaken.

A years notice is pretty good no?

We'll do what we can to facilitate these things of course.

gandalf

I'm talking about location & exact Date here. People have plans and commitments the more exact notice given the better.

Dar

As per the constitution, at least 60 days notice will be given before the next AGM.

gandalf

Oh I am aware of that I am saying the exact location should also be finalised at this stage as well. Then people should not use the excuse that they couldn't get there. Is that clearer for you all.

JohnReisman

I am not going to suggest a county or even a compass point. But it would seem fair considering some of the views on this issue not to hold the AGM in the same county 2 years running. Considering the makeup of the registered members it would probably mean Dublin every second year. But then the grumblers would automatically lose 50% of the wind from their sails.

Lemming

JohnReisman wrote: »

I am not going to suggest a county or even a compass point. But it would seem fair considering some of the views on this issue not to hold the AGM in the same county 2 years running. Considering the makeup of the registered members it would probably mean Dublin every second year. But then the grumblers would automatically lose 50% of the wind from their sails.

I will argue against this. Not because Dublin is convenient to me, but because it's a really sh*t excuse for potentially inconveniencing a majority of IAA members (who at this moment in time appear to be in Dublin) to placate nay-sayers who aren't even members of the IAA at this moment in time.

By all means, if a couple of areas arise that match for demographics by all means switch between them, but switching for the sake of switching is a bad, bad, bad idea and it breeds nothing but resentment.

JohnReisman

Then you will be giving possibly hundreds of airsofters reason to start complaining saying it should be called the Dublin Airsoft League. Start now as you mean to carry on. There will be more members around the country soon. But it may take years rather than months to sign them up if every AGM and EGM is in Dublin.

ambro25

JohnReisman wrote: »

There will be more members around the country soon.

That is a given. Well, at least a big hope.

JohnReisman wrote: »

But it may take years rather than months to sign them up if every AGM and EGM is in Dublin.

That is an assumption. Whoever said "every AGM and EGM is forever going to be in Dublin"?

JohnReisman, as explained to you at length, please understand that until and unless there are matching demographics around the country, so long as the majority of members are in Dublin, then Dublin is the most convenient place. As for rising members, the IAA is provisioning for this, with Regional Sub-Committees.

It's not a Dub Snub, its' not the Big Smoke vs the Rest of Country, it's just a matter of practicality as the history of the sport and its association stands to date. About 4 months after it was first created. I wish people in general would cop on and stop moaning, when the association is 4 months old. 120 days. If you have bags of free time and resources to throw at it to make it better, then please join, get together with the CLO and get to whatever "it" is.

If these 'prospective members' around the country would rather soon call the IAA the 'DAA' because they can't understand this, then the value of their contribution to the sport as members is questionable already. It's simple logic, nothing more.

Understand also, that you can't be expecting a full GAA-grade associative structure nationwide overnight, when the sport is still so new, the membership still so low and the number of paid subscriptions less still.

Boston

From a practical point of view you can't organise the agm in a place where there are no members, or more to the point, members willing to put the work in. I've organised events like agms (though not an agm) and theres a lot of leg work in calling venues, visiting places, checking bookings ect ect ect. I think it would be unfair to expect, with our limited resources, Ronan or anybody else Dublin based to organise an agm in another county.

All that said, if we have members who are willing to organise it they can come to this years agm, put forward a proposal, get it seconded and have it voted on. Thats the only way to do this fairly and it would also stop the nay sayers as its hard to argue with a majority vote.

JohnReisman

First things first, I am a fully paid up member of the IAA.

Sorry Ambro, you missed the point. I was trying to say I think it’s up to you guys to talk up what’s going on down the country. It may be a long way off, but how much better would things be viewed if you came out with statements like ‘we’ll be having a meeting in some other city as soon as possible’ rather than ‘so long as the majority of members are in Dublin, then Dublin is the most convenient place.' Both statements are fully reflective of the current situation.

Also I would suggest you edit your comment: If these 'prospective members' around the country would rather soon call the IAA the 'DAA' because they can't understand this, then the value of their contribution to the sport as members is questionable already.

Its is up to all of the committee including you to increase membership and support for the sport, not insult any prospective or current members.

Lemming

JohnReisman wrote: »

Its is up to all of the committee including you to increase membership and support for the sport, not insult any prospective or current members.

"Everyone else's responsibility but mine".


I would challenge your comment and say that it is in the interest of every person who wants to play airsoft and see the game prosper to lend the IAA their support instead of engaging in parish-pump real-politik. I'm not dismissing what you're saying, simply pointing out that right now this is politik that is both unreasonable and unrealistic given the current state of airsoft in Ireland.

Each and every one of us - IAA member or not - is an ambassador and spokesperson for airsoft when we talk to people who don't play. And to demand singular attention for a very focused area simply to make a political point (you are trying to make one whether you realise it or not) is rather counter-productive.

ambro25

I've got the point just fine, JohnReisman.

We are just not expressly pandering to the membership anywhere, and to date the AGM and EGM have been held in Dublin because that is where the vast majority of the membership was based at the material time, so that it was easiest to gather the most members at the notice available.

This may change by the time preparations for the next AGM come up, or the one after that, or the one after that, etc, etc. and it is up to players to sign up from all over the country en masse so that the current "membership map" changes, whereby the next AGM should of course reflect this. I don't believe that's been at issue. And I don't believe explaining a rational, logical matter is "insulting members". I can't explain the matter any clearer, I can't help how you perceive the matter (an insult? come on!) and it doesn't look like others can either

Contrary to your belief, the Committee's job is not to recruit members: the Committee's job is to ensure the IAA works as an entity and fulfils the tasks and goals set by its Constitution. It's up to players to apply for membership - or not, as they want and see fit.

You'll have to excuse me for not playing the consumate politician's game with a velvety tongue to appease the membership, existing and potential, from wherever, and for simply calling a spade a spade and getting down to brass tacks. That's just me. And as said in another thread earlier, don't worry, you only have to suffer me until the end of the year

And thank you for joining