Advice From Print Design Professionals

minikin

If people are going to ask for advice please allow us to reply, I can't speak for heggie (another professional) but I've no interest in spending my time offering free advice if I'm going to be shouted down by non-professionals who give completely misleading advice... who then go on to abuse their moderating privileges. If they don't like being corrected then maybe they shouldn't offer misguided opinions in the first place.

the mod in question made some completely ignorant comments about not only design but the professional applications required to produce it.

the original poster asked the question: I have photoshop and publisher available - which should I use, both myself and heggie answered from the point of view of knowledgeable professionals. The O.P. was not asking for a debate on the distribution practices of software by educational institutions.

I have an A* that begs to differ from making a college poster from powerpoint

wow, I bow to your superior design understanding so...

Mod, you have completely personalised this

if you have nothing to add but radical fanboyism and software slander , do not post.

I'm the lead designer in a commercial printers... the "opinions" I gave are actually facts... I am not some "fanboy" whatever the hell that is...

Software slander??? If an engineer asked whether to use autocad or QCad and I came on ignorantly suggesting they use ms paint and was then corrected by an architect... would that be 'software slander' or 'fanboyism'?

you became embarassed when a professional pointed out that your advice was wrong and then you threw a tantrum... no doubt you will close this thread or delete it or ban me - as you obviously do not have the maturity to know when to accept that you are wrong.

the above text has been brought to you by wrigleys chewing gum, nescafe coffee and this thread

heggie

agree totally, has put me off contributing to this forum. Having a mod close down threads because they don't agree with other opinions makes this whole thing pointless.

Hank_Scorpio

I concur. I was involved in that discussion, I didn't appreciate the mod throwing his toys out of the pram. It was ridiculous. I have over 10 years experience in the printing industry. If someone asks should I use MS word or InDesign I say InDesign, if someone says should I use Photoshop or Publisher I say Photoshop.

I'm not here to be shouted at. I totally still stand by minikin and heggie on this, it's Publisher if you don't Photoshop. If you have photoshop then use it. There's tons of cool tutorials on how to make posters with photoshop on the web and would take half a day to learn off.

Publisher is a "layout program", but it is awful by any standard, ring up any prepress department and they will tell you the same. If you really wanted a poster done up for college or something like that there should be people or departments in that college willing to help you.

Lo-res A3 posters are an eye sore, Publisher shouldn't really be an option if Photoshop is sitting there. Again, Photoshop is worth a lot of money and rightly so, if you have it don't let it gather dust.


I know that publisher files will cause a problem if sent to a printers simply because I have the experience with dealing with such files sent by customers. What happens is this.

The operator takes the publisher file, extracts all the data out of it into a layout program, like InDesign or Quark and relays it all out, sources high res images and spends about 8 hours working on the file. At €50 an hour it's already gone to €400 for the layout alone, before it even hits the presses.

Save yourself and someone else the hassle and money in the long run by using photoshop, and source the tutorials or ask questions here or on www.creativeireland.com or tek-tips.com or layersmagazine.com/forums etc.

Citizen_Erased

I have not the time to consider these arguments at the moment as i am busy but I will devote time to them at a later date.

I will also move this to the feedback forum as it us where it belongs , even though I accept that I am in part in the wrong.

I was only forced to lock the thread because i stated clearly that only constructive threads will be accepted and violations of that would result in locking. This clear unmistakable statement was immediately violated in the next post. I stand by my actions. The origional post had been long answered and dealt with and should you have wished to spart a discussion on print qualities in various disciplines a fresh thread is the place for it , the context of the origional work was college work for a non multimedia student.

To minikin : You claim that you wanted your right to reply , you were given it before the thread was locked and managed to produce nothing but an ill fated load of garbage suitable on no level for any forum. If you wish to make a professional point about your preferences in software do so in a professional manner, criteria far from met in your post . The same goes to you Heggie , if you want to be seen in a professional light , post using logic and an appropriate level of formaility . You call this design advice from professional but it beggers beleif that someone who exhibits behaviour similar to a child in their arguments can be accomplished in any given field.

I apologise for my outburst and it was unacceptable but for you to call into account the reputibility of my university simpley because of your totalistic views on printed media is ridiculous , i have already placed my argument for why it is necessary to be like it is.

As you for the view that i threw a tantrum about my argument being overthrown, i was infuriated with the shear level of un professionaility of the posters Heggie and minikin who repeatedly could not concieve the principal that the nature of the poster necessary and the situation of the student in questions did not require the full blown industry stabdard tools , infact to use them would have been a large hinderince to his work . I on the other hand have experience in making a report style poster for a non multimedia course and as a result became annoyed at being contradicted in such a childish manner repeatedly by people who had not undertaken such a task before.

Phtotshop may be the industry standard for graphic design but in this case is overkill,

The offside rule is the industry standard for football but do 9 year olds use it playing football in their back gardens ?

A JCB is the most pwerful and effiecient tool for digging a hole but does that mean an old woman uses it to plant tulips in her flower box .

no.

Its called a comprimise and in a lot of situations it is a necessary thing.

I should point out that i have no quarrel with the user hank_scorpio as he is the only person to have behaved rationally and was contributing to the thread and before the other posters entered the thread , it was remaining professional , logically and suitably unbiased. I do feel nbad for locking the thread for this reason because between me and him there was a logical exchange, however the continued poor manners of the other posters pointed to an outcome of the thread descending into a large flaming war. I believe the problem with Heggie and minikin is that they believe just because they are professionals they have some god given right to be correct in all things multimedia and when a logical contradictions of their opinions was produced they could not accept that. A point highlighted in heggies last post which is nothing but a slander of my educational institution , cant handle the argument so lash out - the actions of a stubborn child.

If i must be punished for my outburst then so be , I am a grown and can accept these consequences.

And I apologise for my poor spelling in this thread but i am pressed for time.

DeVore

This thread needs more links.

DeV.

heggie

what a load of bull, if anyone was childish it was you, won't be visiting digital art / design anymore.

minikin

God almighty, where do I start with this...
(back in a few minutes, need to put the kettle on before I rip_citizen erased a new one)

actually screw it, I'm not going to have a go because that would be akin to child abuse in this case. (What are you...19?)

I dropped in on the digital art and design to try help out exactly the likes of 'raindog.promo'
Obviously my four years in college and all the professional experience since 1996 is no match for other people's "50 minutes tutorial in powerpoint"... I stand corrected.

So Citizen_Erased, keep spouting incredibly ill-informed advice on here... that's fine by me.
All it means is that my company gets to make a lot more money off innocents who come in with 'artwork' looking to get crap printed.

Unbelievable!

p.s. glad to see you've edited out some of the more personally abusive comments.

Citizen_Erased

My first post:

I have had to do posters for my university course and have found that a combination of the two is what works best , making the individual graphics within photoshop and then arranging them and adding writing etc using Publisher/Powerpoint. Creating a complete poster within photoshop is not only very figity and tricky for the user but most systems wont be able to handle the large file sizes needed for making say an A3 poster.

So if possible , use a combination of both , photoshop to make the graphics and publisher to arrange , script and format the poster . And if you have to chose one programe only, chose publisher and save yourself the major headache that working solely with photoshop would be .

Your first post, minkin :

for the love of god and his angelic army of prepress operators...

DO NOT USE ANY MICROSLOP PROGRAMMES FOR ANYTHING... EVER

suggesting someone use powerpoint for anything other than putting your fellow business execs into a light doze is akin to suggesting someone cross the atlantic in a kettle

as for laying print artwork out in photoshop... it's the least worst option in this case... ordinarily if you have access to a real layout package or even illustrator you would NEVER use potatoshop

Who is acting more professional ? When you give someone advice you advise them what to do , you are ordering him what to do , if you had have laid out the exact reason why he should not use Microsoft programs then he would have seen for himself and decided weather or not to use it. But instead you clearly lack the ability to win someone over to your view of thinking using constructive language and charisma and so instead what we are greated by is what is seen in the above quote of yours.

And btw , I am a paid graphic designer with an IT company, I work in the printed media industry. I know everything that you told the OP , I could have just have easily told him exactly what you did in such a blunt fashion but I did not deem it suitable to his circumstances so I laid out the pros and cons of each piece of software. You have not presented a single argument to back up your rather forceful "suggestion" of using photoshop instead.


You should be glad like you said that people make sub standard files for printing because like you said it keeps you in business. That is how the system works , it is your job to finalise and apply all the necessary multimedia knowledge to a poster , not the engineer whos field of expertise is surprisingly engineering.

Heggie I accept that you no longer wish to participate in the forum , but of course that will mean that you will also have to cease drawing business from the forum . If you abstain from contributing , you cannot take something out in return.

The forum is in many ways better off without both of you , for me and hank_scorpio where in afct having a rational and logical argument before both of use "contributed" (a term i use loosely). If the powers that be decide it would also be better off without me moderating then so be it , I can still offer my unbiased advice from a regulare peer level.

Overheal

chiming in on the paint/photoshop learning curve, I picked up corel X over the summer and churned out some impressive results by mid-week for a laugh: http://overheal1987.deviantart.com/art/X-A3-Knight-63960749 cant say I could produce the same in any microsoft application. From a rank amateurs [of digital art..] perspective I dont grasp why you would need publisher at all, but tbh I've barely ever run the application. Paintshop (and photoshop, but I have a bias against adobe*) has all of the facilities for producing text and graphics. The linework in my example was done in vector layers and then reverted to a raster layer.

After reading the thread I can see where the funny squirrel got his idea from: it was what he did in college. Fair enough. That doesn't make it the correct answer. I do a lot of stuff in college but I wouldnt dream of flaming out my industry counterparts like this: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=55326566&postcount=11 what do you gain by mentioning 140 1st year students if you aren't one of them? This post was a little bewildering. Are you claiming to be in the industry or in the classroom??

There was no need for this attitude and locking the thread seemed wholly unnecessary to me. The replies weren't the most professionally ettiquite but they were by no means malicious. I challenge you to find any IT professional for instance who doesnt have slang-names for most things microsoft. This is boards.ie, not a corporate board room. People may speak quite loosely here. You could have issued warnings for the caps shouting and left it at that.

At the same time I think the only element de-railing this thread were Heggie's comments, which didnt offer up any supporting points, and attacked (indirectly) the credibility of the moderator.

minikin

right old chum (c_e), if this is the way you want to play it...

let's discuss some facts for a second:

You're 19 right?
You've 'done' or are 'doing' a masters degree engineering course but somehow you are also a professional graphic designer who believes powerpoint should be used for print design?

Here's what I think - you've never actually professionally designed anything for print in your short life...

That is how the system works , it is your job to finalise and apply all the necessary multimedia knowledge to a poster

'multimedia knowledge' ... what are you talking about man?
Do you even understand what print design is? It's not multimedia...

At this stage Citizen_Erased you are making claims about my conduct which are completely out of order... go take a time out, before you embarrass yourself any more.

Overheal

Citizen_Erased wrote: »

The forum is in many ways better off without both of you , for me and hank_scorpio where in afct having a rational and logical argument before both of use "contributed" (a term i use loosely). If the powers that be decide it would also be better off without me moderating then so be it , I can still offer my unbiased advice from a regulare peer level.

If you're making statements like this, it only reads to me as though you know the action was unwarranted. If you had a problem with 1 or 2 particular posters why lock the entire thread if as you say there was a rational and logical argument being conducted? Why not simply rectify the error and get back to modding/posting?

I think you acted emotionally here. Bad modding.

heggie

Citizen_Erased wrote: »

that will mean that you will also have to cease drawing business from the forum . If you abstain from contributing , you cannot take something out in return.

The forum is in many ways better off without both of you

get off your pedestal, when have I ever drawn business from the forum, you're a complete joke of a moderator. you only have to look at the amount of solutions/help minikin and myself have given to that forum to see that what you have said is bs. anyway, for better or not I suspect it will be without both of us, me certainly anyway

DeVore

Wow, what a fncking train crash.

Firstly, everyone is wrong.

Minikin, you come off sounding like a strident, shrill fanatic. If your arguments can hold water you don't need to denigrate others.

C_E, while I agree the thread should have been locked because it almost immediately became a "religious" argument. You shouldnt get personally enflamed and if you do, you should then be very careful about use of mod-powers.

The actual answer is not as clear cut as the PS fans seem to think. If I were a professional I would use PS. (I have used it a great deal in my job). I have also professionall printed entire amateur magazines using Publisher because it was difficult enough to get the OTHER contributors to the mag not to hit their computers with sticks. Training them in PS just wasnt an option.

Producing a poster for a college event doesnt need pin-point accuracy, Publisher might not be the very best tool for the job but it IS an option if you can't use anything else. It WILL do the job and thats the point C_E was making.

Where this thread went off the rails is that three of the posters on that thread simply couldnt seem to accept an alternative point of view.

Finally, Boards.ie is not "intertwined" with C_E's employer. We have no relationship with them apart from personal relationships between various people in both companies. However there is no formal or business relationship there.
Critiquing their design as a means of countering the points made by a person who works there is not the best logical debate I have ever heard.

DeV.

CuLT

I really wish you had replied to me via PM before posting here C_E.

DeVore

Minikin, you are getting a formal warning now from me for continuing to snipe at the company in question.

DeV.

Citizen_Erased

Yes I do apologise for my choice of words , I can in a rush mistate what I truely mean , by intertwined I did mean that it actively contributes to the website . I have altered my previous post to account for this fact and I apologise for this blurring of what is a sensitive matter. ANd i would like to mention one more time that my only mention of the company was to show that I had come in contac with the methods and procedures involve with producing and printing. I fully realise now I should have allowed the company to remain anonymous.

DeVore

I'm more then a little peeved that a moderators company is being dragged through this in what seems to be a nasty way of getting back at the mod for his modding decision. An appeal to authority of professional employment in an area is not an invitation to critique an entire company. That said, the appeal to authority should have left the company anonymous, a lesson I think that has been learned.

I'm going to remove references to the company now from this thread.

DeV.

minikin

If I were a professional I would use PS. (I have used it a great deal in my job). I have also professionall printed entire amateur magazines using Publisher

This is the very essence of the first thread... and this is why you, like c_e are not in a position to correct heggie, hank, myself or any other print professional.

No, you would not use photoshop for layout if you were a professional graphic designer... it's an image editing app, not a layout app... that's why we have indesign (and some older crustier folk have quark).

We are not

PS Fans

- we are graphic design professionals who are tired of the constant erosion of the industry by bad practice.
All we were trying to do was offer correct advice to people who looked for it.

Simple As.

As I said before... in fairness to sully perhaps it would be a good idea to delete both threads.

DeVore

This is the very essence of the first thread... and this is why you, like c_e are not in a position to correct heggie, hank, myself or any other print professional.

However we ARE in a position to give our points of view and Caveat Emptor. I'm sorry but who are you to say "i'm a professional, therefore you dont get to talk. At all".

Pffffffffff.

DeV.

minikin

I'm sorry but who are you to say "i'm a professional, therefore you dont get to talk. At all".

Here's the exact reason why I started this particular thread... I haven't stopped anyone giving their point of view.

Remember - I'm not the one that closed threads or handed out formal warnings...

All I did was question the validity of citizen_erased's advice... as it was, and you can quote me on this, completely wrong.

My only interest was in putting the o.p. on the right track. Is it the case that a mod can not be contradicted?

Overheal

contradicted but not insulted. among other things you insinuated his qualifications were bogus and his education a sham.

minikin

eh, where did I do that?
c_e has never claimed to have had a graphic design education or qualifications, so how could I have insulted something that, as far as I know from the information he has provided, does not exist.

Sully

minikin wrote: »

eh, where did I do that?

Earlier on, IIRC. Its been deleted now. I do beleive heggi made remarks about the University he want to also.

minikin

sorry sully, i haven't deleted any such thing...
i stand over everything i typed regarding c_e's advice

Overheal

Oh. I was thinking of Heggi's remark actually >_> my pardons.

So *cough* : contradicted but not insulted.. the mod had his credibility attacked and his experience mocked. Thats not to say the mod's responses werent difficult to comprehend but that wouldnt excuse the heggi remark about the college.

minikin

agreed, i have no personal problem with anyone on here... never have had, never will have... dodge info masking as expert opinion - that's another issue

heggie

he went on about A+'s and that they used publisher in college, and I said the college should be ashamed. Turns out it wasnt a design course I think, i see nothing wrong with what I said

Citizen_Erased

I only mentioned such things because they were relevant to the OP situation, the creation of a poster for a college project.

I am on an engineering course and the OP was evidently on a similar non-media based course.

Production of posters for non-media based courses by this method is comman place across most universities.

heggie

you mentioned it to back up your claims, bragging about A+ basically saying we were wrong. I've nothing more to add to this anyway.

Sully

minikin wrote: »

sorry sully, i haven't deleted any such thing...
i stand over everything i typed regarding c_e's advice

No, DeV deleted the post. I could be getting mixed up with heggie but I do believe you blasted his education also.

minikin

Sorry sully, never made a reference to his engineering education, his university, his lecturers, the university nurse or the lollipop lady who brings him across the road every morning... if you can show me where i did I'd be glad to retract it... as I'm sure all of the above are A*


image copyright minikin pictorial industries 1914-2008

Heinrich

When I was doing this graphic stuff it was Xpress, Illustrator and Photoshop. We used postscript for sending to the scanner and now it's Acrobat. If the program is capable of being translated to Acrobat that will work fine but beware of the settings and always print out a proof.

I also use Serif PagePlus and this works fine.

Now if a guy uses Publisher and it works then fine but otherwise he give the raw text and a model of what he wants laid out. On the other hand if the graphic artist starts toying around the publisher design with inDesign, Illustrator and Phortoshop he's offside. If he accepts the work he must state which type of file he needs and in default should give the client an estimate for the extra work.

I was in the print game for 35 years and have a reasonably good idea of where you are all coming from.;)

Sully

minikin wrote: »

Sorry sully, never made a reference to his engineering education, his university, his lecturers, the university nurse or the lollipop lady who brings him across the road every morning... if you can show me where i did I'd be glad to retract it... as I'm sure all of the above are A*


image copyright minikin pictorial industries 1914-2008

Stop editing your posts to slap in stupid remarks. Its immature and highly unprofessional.

DeVore

This thread has about 12 hours to live as we're getting no where here. I stand by every word I've written on this thread. Everyone is wrong.

DeV.

Heinrich

DeVore wrote: »

This thread has about 12 hours to live as we're getting no where here. I stand by every word I've written on this thread. Everyone is wrong.

DeV.

I'm not! Close it now before we get more grey lightswitches;)

Esel

DeVore wrote: »

I'm going to remove references to the company now from this thread.

Check post #13.

minikin

Stop editing your posts to slap in stupid remarks. Its immature and highly unprofessional.

Sully, would you ever cop on... i edited the post to insert the pic (my way of saying that as far as i was concerned the whole sorry affair was over... try to leave the thing on a positive note)

nothing in the post was stupid, immature or highly unprofessional
(we're supposed to be professional posters? hands up who gets paid to post here...)

Maybe spend more time on certain aspects of certain things and you wouldn't feel so threatened by constructive criticism

Sully

minikin wrote: »

Sully, would you ever cop on... i edited the post to insert the pic (my way of saying that as far as i was concerned the whole sorry affair was over... try to leave the thing on a positive note)

nothing in the post was stupid, immature or highly unprofessional
(we're supposed to be professional posters? hands up who gets paid to post here...)

Sorry but I felt you were just being immature with that post. If you wanted to come across another way, I guess its my fault for thinking opposite of you. I just got used to your posts that way, that's all.

Maybe spend more time on certain aspects of certain things and you wouldn't feel so threatened by constructive criticism

Amusing Threatened? Very amusing. My Inbox awaits all your "constructive criticism".

Citizen_Erased

heggie wrote: »

you mentioned it to back up your claims, bragging about A+ basically saying we were wrong. I've nothing more to add to this anyway.

Of course I was using it to back up my claims , after all it was relevant.

If you are going to continue to insult me due to my age minikin then at least know that I am 18 so you can be factually correct in that at least .

minikin

you couldn't handle it son... wouldn't want you running to the king pin again (what did you do threaten to pull advertising... you the man!)

Citizen_Erased

minikin wrote: »

you couldn't handle it son... wouldn't want you running to the king pin again (what did you do threaten to pull advertising... you the man!)

The confusion that post has instilled within me knows no bounds.

ie what are ye on about ?

Sully

minikin wrote: »

you couldn't handle it son... wouldn't want you running to the king pin again (what did you do threaten to pull advertising... you the man!)

Son? God you craic me up, you should come a professional entertainer!

As for that lame comment... we are not advertising on Boards. Seriously lad, come up with a better argument! Your letting your side down!

DeVore

I've just deleted two posts of mine before posting them because I can't lock this thread if I say what I am really thinking right now. So instead of perpetuating this debacle I'm just going to lock it.

DeV.

Hagar

If this thread had started in any other forum it would have been moved to the Thunderdome ages ago.

With the exception of one or two lucid posts it's the worst feedback thread I've ever seen.

Very disappointing chaps.