Rippetoe's Starting Strength - Help Needed!

Chieftan Scribe

Hi guys,

just a quick question on the Starting Strength programme. I have been away from lifting weights for about a year. i have been just doing basic maintenence stuff. I want to get back into it as the GAA season is picking up again and I want to build up the strength again in time for the championship (Summer time). Anyhoo, I did a little research and decided I'd go with the SS program outlined below as I wanted to more or less go back to basics and build a general strngth. The only problem is, a couple of years ago i created an imbalance in my shoulders due to lifting weights (the chest was more developed than the back) and i had rotator cuff problems. I have eradicated that through rehabilitation but I still reckon my shoulders are still a little pulled forward.

From looking at the the SS program I'm a little worried about creating the same imbalance again as there doesn't seem to be any major work on the upper back, traps, lats etc. Now, it strictly says not to f*uck with the program and just do what Rippetoe has outlined but I was thinking about adding dumbell rows or seated rows on Workout 1 or something.

below is the program I'm working off.

Workout A
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench Press
1x5 Deadlift
**2x8 Dips

Workout B
3x5 Squat
3x5 Standing military press
3x5 Power cleans
**2x8 Chin-ups

Any help or ideas would be much appreciated.

Cheers guys

Killme00

Stupid question but i have to ask because i want to knwo more about it. Is this program detailed in the booked Starting Strength 2nd Edition (if so, great I got an email from the US Postal service yesterday to say its on the way), if not can you tell me where i can find out more about it.

Ta

An Citeog

Killme00 wrote: »

Stupid question but i have to ask because i want to knwo more about it. Is this program detailed in the booked Starting Strength 2nd Edition (if so, great I got an email from the US Postal service yesterday to say its on the way), if not can you tell me where i can find out more about it.

Ta

Yeah, it's detailed in the book. Otherwise you can have a look here and in more detail here.

OP, regarding the whole imbalance thing, have a trawl through this forum and see if you can find anything. Straight from the horse's mouth!

Hanley

The power cleans could be replaced by Pendlay Rows, which would take care of your upper back BUT since you're a GAA player the power you'd gain from the cleans means they should stay in.

There'd be no problem adding in some upper back/lat work either before or after the session tbh. That warning about not fcuking with it is in place to stop newbs changing the deadlifts for something like curls ya know??

On the A workouts, just do some face pulls 3-5x10-15 before or after the workout.

Om the B days, do chest supported rows or dumbbell rows at the end of the workout. Again 3-5 sets, but 8 to 12 reps. Go a little bit heavier with these like.

Oh, and keep the chin ups on the B workout as well.

More than happy to explain my thought process and reasoning behind the above if anyone cares.

Killme00

WTF is a face pull? It sounds like fun, just be careful the wind doesnt change!

Hanley

Killme00 wrote: »

WTF is a face pull? It sounds like fun, just be careful the wind doesnt change!

A face pull is as it sounds, a pull to the face!! It's one of my favourite upper back exercises. Use like a tricep rope or something off a high pulley and pull it towards your face with your elbows high. Try to pull the rope apart at the same time.

http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=13319&tid=104

I can't get onto youtube because I'm in college, but if you search there you should find some vids.

Hanley

Alternatively, another one i've had success with is a chest supported row on a shallow incline w/ dumbbells (sometimes refered to as a prone row I think?)

Grab an adjustable bench, set the incline to about 30 degress or so and lie face down on it with dumbbells in your hands. Rows them jsut like you would with a bent over rows, but make the effort to keep your elbows flared. Trying to pull the dumbbell to the same level as your nipples is the sorta area i'm talking about.

Killme00

Thanks Hanley

Jimmy Bottlehead

Quick question (not derailing the thread!)...

Would Deadlifts, T-Bar rows, Lat pulldowns and face pulls make up a good back workout? Or would the rows and facepulls work the same area?

Hanley

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

Quick question (not derailing the thread!)...

Would Deadlifts, T-Bar rows, Lat pulldowns and face pulls make up a good back workout? Or would the rows and facepulls work the same area?

Yarp. They would. Basic and simple. Go heavy on the T-bar rows (6-10) and ligther on the face pulls (12-15).

Jimmy Bottlehead

Wait, they would make a good workout or they would work the same area?

Quoth the Raven, "Never slower" - it's a tiring day in work!

Hanley

Jimmy Bottlehead wrote: »

Wait, they would make a good workout or they would work the same area?

Quoth the Raven, "Never slower" - it's a tiring day in work!

They'd make a good work out!! Buuutttt *

*insert obligatory "you can't do a back workout without chins or pullups" post here*

Jimmy Bottlehead

Ahhhh... good point. Meant to start doing chins, but frankly I doubt I'll be able yet and I don't have a training partner (perfer going it alone) so negatives/assists might be out of the question. Might pick up a chin bar from MickK if I can muster the cash, and get cracking into them at home.

Cheers again boss!

Colm_OReilly

I don't see a need to change the program, I don't believe this program will cause/exagerate an imbalance in your back.

BUT, the best thing to do is ask Rip himself. Repost your original query there and let's see what he says. He's far more experience than any of us here.

Of course, Rip might ask you to try adding in the assistance exercises and see. In which case, Hanley'd be your best man to talk to.

Chieftan Scribe

Cheers lads, much appreciated.

The power cleans could be replaced by Pendlay Rows, which would take care of your upper back BUT since you're a GAA player the power you'd gain from the cleans means they should stay in.

On the A workouts, just do some face pulls 3-5x10-15 before or after the workout.

Om the B days, do chest supported rows or dumbbell rows at the end of the workout. Again 3-5 sets, but 8 to 12 reps. Go a little bit heavier with these like.

Oh, and keep the chin ups on the B workout as well.

Yeah, i like the sounds of that Hanley. As you say, I don't want to leave out the cleans as I like the explosiveness/power which can be transferred onto the field.

Now the next step is to get beasting the weights and eeating like an animal ,looking forward to getting stuck in at them again

Cheers again

The Shane

I know this topic is pretty much satisfactorily settled but I want to sound off.

The Starting strength program is more in favour of presses than benching, and makes some pretty cogent arguments for the press as a better sports specific movement that the bench. I reckon if you keep your focus on the press more than the bench, do the prescribed pull ups and deads then you should be fine.

Just out of interest, are you starting the powercleans straight away?

Shane, The
Does love his pull ups

Hanley

I sincerly doubt adding face pulls or a row (which doesn't load the lower back) will retard progress in any way.

If the OP's anything like the majority of people I see in the gym, he'll need to balance out his rowing and his pressing anyway.

Chieftan Scribe

Just out of interest, are you starting the powercleans straight away?

I'm no novice to the weights if that is what your tryin to get at! I've just been away from the weights for about a year in order to rehab various injuries and I was looking for a programme which involves the major compund lifts. I am familiar wiith the cleans anyway but I probably won't lash straight into them, i'll be building up slowly focusing on the technique (the same goes goes for the other lifts).

I was just concerned that there didn't seem any upper back-specific excercises and considering my history with imbalances, I just wanted to add something in to ensure this didn't happen again.

johnathan woss

The thing is though, if you are doing the bench press and standing press correctly then you are also exercising your back.

Keep your scapulae retracted and your back engaged while doing these lifts .... firing a cannon from a canoe isn't a good idea.

Chieftan Scribe

johnathan woss wrote: »

The thing is though, if you are doing the bench press and standing press correctly then you are also exercising your back.

Yeah, i'll be focusing solely on my form for the first week to two weeks anyway, always annoys me when other team mates go into the gym and lash away at the weights with terrible form. You know, not even questioning how they are supposed to do the lifts properly. Anyway thats a thread for another day!

firing a cannon from a canoe isn't a good idea.

I like that, think i'll start using that one

Hanley

johnathan woss wrote: »

The thing is though, if you are doing the bench press and standing press correctly then you are also exercising your back.

Keep your scapulae retracted and your back engaged while doing these lifts .... firing a cannon from a canoe isn't a good idea.

Not really tbh. Sure you're working to keep them retracted, but it's a very insignificant effect when compared with what proper upper back training should achieve.

If it was the case there's be no need to do any upper back work at all then surely?

Think of it this way, initially, when you're using say 60kg on the bench your back is getting X amount of work pinning your shoulders back. What happens when you start to progress up thru the weight... 80,90,100 and beyond. You're chest/shoulders are doing 25-50% more work, but your upper back is still doing the exact same as when you first started, creating a huge imbalance and a great potential for injury down the line.

Lets not forget, the OP is someone with a history of shoulder/RC problems as a result of not doing enough upper back/lat work perviously. To suggest he doesn't need to take preventative measures to stop this from reoccuring, regardless of what the program says, is complete and utter madness in my opinion.

Doing so would put the OP in a potentially dangerous position. The rows would have any negative effect on the SS program. Even if they did it would absolutely be marginal. Should the OP be risking, at worst, a marginal loss for a near certain reoccurence of shoulder problems down the line which will probably take him out of training for a period of time?? Hells no.

Chieftan Scribe

Hanley wrote: »

Think of it this way, initially, when you're using say 60kg on the bench your back is getting X amount of work pinning your shoulders back. What happens when you start to progress up thru the weight... 80,90,100 and beyond. You're chest/shoulders are doing 25-50% more work, but your upper back is still doing the exact same as when you first started, creating a huge imbalance and a great potential for injury down the line.

Lets not forget, the OP is someone with a history of shoulder/RC problems as a result of not doing enough upper back/lat work perviously. To suggest he doesn't need to take preventative measures to stop this from reoccuring, regardless of what the program says, is complete and utter madness in my opinion.

Thanks for clearing that up Hanley. I was mainly hoping to get info from yourself on this one as I'm aware of your background. It's really just a precautionary measure I'm taking and I don't want to mess with the essence of the SS program so everything's gravy! Face pulls shall shall be added as I like the idea of doing new excercises

Cheers

celestial

Just a quick follow-up question here - I bench twice a week usually and do one are dbell rows and lat-pull downs to make sure I am working my back too. I plan on giving pull-ups a go too, but just wondering are lat-pull downs and rows sufficient for covering the back area? Figure they are but just want to make sure.. My upper body workout generally looks like this:

Flat bench 3-5 sets
Incline " 3-5 sets
Dbell rows 3-5 sets
Lat-pull down 3-5 sets

Colm_OReilly

This is academic, but:

Lets not forget, the OP is someone with a history of shoulder/RC problems as a result of not doing enough upper back/lat work perviously. To suggest he doesn't need to take preventative measures to stop this from reoccuring, regardless of what the program says, is complete and utter madness in my opinion.

Surely, post rehab - all that is needed is a balanced program. The OP injured himself as a result of overemphasis on his anterior muscles and pressing movements. Is there not an equal danger of injury if he were to place too much emphasis on his posterior muslces?

Think of it like that. If we injured ourselves squatting incorrectly, rehabed the injury and fixed our squat technique, would we need to use other exercises as well? A correct squat technique would ensure stable development, no?

Thoughts?

celestial, do more pull ups! Massive diff between pull ups and lat pull downs

Hanley

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

This is academic, but:



Surely, post rehab - all that is needed is a balanced program. The OP injured himself as a result of overemphasis on his anterior muscles and pressing movements. Is there not an equal danger of injury if he were to place too much emphasis on his posterior muslces?

I would agree in principal, but 99% of people that I've seen do far more bench/front of their body work than they do upper back/lats/lower back work, so to that end, I would say the risk is absolutely minimal. But like I said, I do agree in principal.

Think of it like that. If we injured ourselves squatting incorrectly, rehabed the injury and fixed our squat technique, would we need to use other exercises as well? A correct squat technique would ensure stable development, no?

It's not really fair to compare squatting to benching when it comes to ensuring stable/equal development. Squats will work the whole of your leg, where as benching only works the front of your body... Interestingly I could make the same argument about front -v- back muscle preference for the legs too. As I'm sure ya know, a lot of people put way too much emphasis on their quads (leg presses and extenstions in addition to squats) and do sweet FA for their hamstrings or glutes.

Recently there seems to have been a complete 180 online with everyone saying "hamstrings are WAYYY more important than quads for a big squat" and I would agree to the extent that most peoples hamstring development is so far behind their quads they need the extra emphasis. But much like the bench analogy, to create an imbalance the other way (ie upper back stronger than bench) the volume of the upper back work would have to be much higher and I honestly don't think that's a concern.

Am I making sense?

Colm_OReilly

Thanks Hanley,

I was not using the squat in direct comparison to a bench, just as an example to try and display that post rehab, provided correct form is used, rehabilitation exercises are not required?

As you've said, most people are anterior minded. So do you believe that SS is unbalanced towards the anterior muscles?

Hanley

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

Thanks Hanley,

I was not using the squat in direct comparison to a bench, just as an example to try and display that post rehab, provided correct form is used, rehabilitation exercises are not required?

Often rehab exercises become prehab once the problem's fixed, but I don't think you need to be as aggressive or diligent with it. I know for me if I don't make the effort to do a couple of weeks of glute control and hip flexibility work every couple of months my back starts to get sore...

For the OP I still think it's necessary to keep some rowing movements in place to ensure he doesn't leave himself open to another injury. It's not a question of using correct form on the bench to ensure this doesn't happen because it just does not provide enough direct back stimulation to prevent things from going awry, imo.

As you've said, most people are anterior minded. So do you believe that SS is unbalanced towards the anterior muscles?

I think MOST training programs place too much emphasis on the anterior, and almost ALL trainees ignore the posterior to too large an extent. Admittedly the SS workout is certainly one of the better ones when it comes to a balanced workload, but I'm a firm believer than a big thick strong upper back, and solid lats are the foundation for not only a big bench, but also a big squat and deadlift too since they are so important for stabilisation.

johnathan woss

Hanley you know far more about bench pressing than me, but on one hand you said that your aneterior/posterior will become inbalanced as you lift heavier, and then on the other you said that a big strong back is important for benching heavy.
I'm not saying don't do any other back work, but if you are doing the bench press correctly are you not going to be working your back muscles more as you increase the weight ?

Hanley

johnathan woss wrote: »

I'm not saying don't do any other back work, but if you are doing the bench press correctly are you not going to be working your back muscles more as you increase the weight ?

I don't think so. Think about it this way, all your upper back does is stablise you while you bench, and pin your shoulders together. The stronger your upper back, the more you can "stablise" and you'll get a better drive off your chest. It'll take the exact same amount of effort to do this regardless oh how much you bench, there's no extra stress being placed to make the muscle grow or get stronger over time.

Having a big strong upper back WILL make your bench stronger. But you don't get it by benching. You get it by doing rows etc. Get what I mean?

johnathan woss

Yea I get what you mean, cheers.