Another Botched Relationship Kind of Topic

marthaclark

I knew it would only be a matter of time before I posted here.. but in fairness I've waited nearly 7 days.

Basically.. I was stuck in an emotional rut. Great Guy, Great Relationship, Great Times. Bad Times, Potentially Bad Relationship, Very Bad Times. We had that sort of 'quiet love', i.e., "how are they not bored of each other" love. But we didn't get bored of each other. However, it was a bit too quiet on his end.. in terms of verbalising his feelings. I felt like I had to work really hard to get a compliment. The negative comments came naturally. We probably should've remained just firm friends.. we have so much in common.. but I actually fell in love with him. And his friends seem to think he fell in love with me. I think my friends struggle with a 'shake-her' urge. They've been.. cautious about him. But supported me, which I'm so thankful for.

Anyway, to make a long story short. I have a tendency to break up with him. This he sees as very immature. It is very immature. It's attention seeking. I need him to tell me he loves me, so much that I fool myself into trying to force it out of him. (Which we all know, in rational terms, does not work.) There are all these things I need him to say, or do, and I can't make him do them without explicitly asking.. which again, is self defeating. I find it really hard to convince myself that he loves me, and to be honest, he doesn't do anything to prove it. He does things that show he cares, which I love him for. But there's nothing much on the love side of things.. he's only told me he loves me twice without me saying it first. Which makes me scared to say it. I think I've heard it from him about 10 times.. including phonecalls and texts.

I think he's of the opinion that relationships should be effortless. And that's great, I love that.. but there are times when they do require effort. You can't avoid those times. Bad Times. And I'm scared he's not willing to make the effort when things become incovenient. This is what I call the 'The Fear'. So When I get the fear, I break up with him, and hope he crawls back. Sometimes he half heartedly does and initiates us 'talking'.. which basically involves me talking myself back into the relationship, while he sits there. If I don't talk, he doesn't talk. I think it's just him letting me vent until I realise I want to get back with him. The other times I panic and try to repair the damage done by breaking up with him. (All the while forgetting myself and my reasons for doing it in the first place.. just wanting and needing him.)

So you see it is a vicious circle. Last friday we had a particularly nasty fight. When we fight, he grows indifferent and frustrated with me.. and it feels like he turns it on me. There can be no rational or calm talking.. just his frustration and/or indifference. This pushes all my buttons. The dismissals, the impatience, the indifference. It really really rubs me up the wrong way. We all have some level of emotional instability.. but all my emotional instability seems to revolve around these things. I've tried to explain this.. the reasons, the irrationale, everything. If there is one moment or time I need someone to compromise, it's when I'm hurting, and I'm scared. Last Friday he didn't want to talk. I gave him about 18 hours to prepare himself to talk. (After the fight.. then overnight.. until the next afternoon, around 3pm.) And I was quite upset.. visibly upset, crying.. etc.. not trying to paint an ugly picture. but I was upset. he was running scared, as usual. And all I needed was a hug.. or a kind word. Anything, other than frustration and indifference. He mocks me, laughs at me, gives out to me for being upset.. but there is rarely any tenderness, or understanding, or comforting. even when I'm crying about things other than him. Which is embarassing.. because I've needed a few good cries in the past 12 months.. and he's been there, trying to problem solve, totally missing or overlooking my emotional needs.

Put simply, I'm a talker and he's a walker. And he's not willing to compromise. I've tried walking, and for the most part it's worked.. i.e. he apologises. Breaking up is the ultimate form of walking.. and he has apologised for the last fight.. he said he was sorry and he wished he had treated me better. That I deserve better. But that doesn't feel like love. and god I want it to be love. I've wanted it to be love for the last 2+ years. I'm so in denial I don't know which way the river is running. I'm ambivalent.

Am I too insecure to be secure in this relationship.. is this about me?
Or is he too secure in the relationship.. is this all about him? Is he being emotionally selfish?

I've typed so much at this stage I'm not even going to read back over it.. it's probably full of typos and grammatical inconsistencies so I apologise to anyone who reads this.

Ickle Magoo

Could it be that you are in extrovert & he is an introvert?

marthaclark

I'm an introvert and he's an extrovert.

EDIT: an extrovert that shows no negative emotion. a fairweather extrovert?

fairweather boyfriend maybe too..

marthaclark

here's an example to illustrate how i honestly felt about our relationship.. even when it was good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CImsEJHYyv4

It's anthony & the johnsons .. fistful of love.

pathetic, maybe. but it's honest at least.

I just don't know if 'it's out of love' anymore

Ickle Magoo

I just wondered because the way you want to talk & he doesn't are atypical of how extroverts/introverts deal with stress & emotion. Extroverts need to discuss everything & have their feelings validated while introverts mull everything over internally & need space.

Either way, you need to meet each other half way. We all deal with things differently but we have to compromise when we are in a partnership. If he won't meet you half way then you have a choice, status quo or leave the relationship.

He mocks me, laughs at me, gives out to me for being upset.. but there is rarely any tenderness, or understanding, or comforting. even when I'm crying about things other than him.

Imagine this for the rest of your life?! I think you need councelling, you sound depressed & with low-self esteem - little wonder if that's the kind of support you can look forward to.

marthaclark

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Imagine this for the rest of your life?! I think you need councelling, you sound depressed & with low-self esteem - little wonder if that's the kind of support you can look forward to.

this is what is scaring me. i just can't help that I love him.. What the hell am I thinking? I must be some sort of masochist!!

I just wish he'd wake up and see what he's doing to the only person (other than his mother) who would be willing to make this many allowances for him.

Ickle Magoo

I have to be blunt so apologies in advance...

Why are you putting his happiness before your own? At what stage did his wants & needs become more important than yours? Why are you wishing he would have some sort of "hallelujah" moment & realise how nice you are to him - you do realise that's just another way of saying he doesn't appreciate you now?!

I think you have to sit your boyfriend down for a serious chat & warn him this is it. Discuss your expectations & boundaries & ask that he do the same. If he can't compromise or isn't going to meet your expectations then I think it's time you aimed higher.

If this is how much you love your fella, imagine the kind of relationship you could have with a man who ticks all your boxes? I think there are many people we can fall in love with in life, perhaps on a couple of them we should fall in love with tho! Best of luck.

marthaclark

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I think you have to sit your boyfriend down for a serious chat & warn him this is it. Discuss your expectations & boundaries & ask that he do the same. If he can't compromise or isn't going to meet your expectations then I think it's time you aimed higher.

The thing is.. I've done this before. More than once. I feel completely humiliated by him too. I forgot to put that in the initial post.

He rang a mutual friend while I was crying friday afternoon.. told them he couldn't go home cos I was going spare.. women eh? all that crap. then asked the guy if he could hear, and put the phone near me. he turned it into a joke. another joke, on me. its really hard to admit this. i'm getting upset just thinking about it again.

to be honest.. this is why i ended it on friday. I ended it in a knee jerk reaction. the humiliation and the reasons in the first post are what make me hesitant to talk to him. I want to. but I can't let myself.

Ickle Magoo

...then it's time you aimed higher.

Placebo

everytime i read these i think its my other half :S
but im not that bad

marthaclark

thanks. helpful.

I don't know what I'm looking for really anyway, help/advice that I should be giving to myself. I just can't get him out of my head.

Ickle Magoo

I don't think there's a lot of advice we can give. You know the problems & you know how they should be resolved. If you can't get your partner to co-operate with you then there is nothing anyone can do to improve the situation, sorry.

marthaclark

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I don't think there's a lot of advice we can give. You know the problems & you know how they should be resolved. If you can't get your partner to co-operate with you then there is nothing anyone can do to improve the situation, sorry.

I know, you're right, but thanks for reading through all the angst and melodrama anyway. I know this isn't the first post like this on here, and it won't be the last.. but I was waiting around wishing someone would reply to my topic, and you did. Not only that but your advice was actually really constructive, and I needed to hear it. So thanks.

LegacyUser

Most boyfriends are walkers and not talkers.
To be honest it’s something that we all have to deal with, and be glad to an extent, because it stops things and allows time to think. Don't be so negative about the "walking", if there is a REAL problem, then time is good.
It’s Zen. It allows things to calm.

From reading through you're post I think that you are being very demanding, and I don’t mean this in the very negative sense that you think.
I think that perhaps you are demanding he reacts like you do and behaves like you do to circumstances; this is sort of selfish and immature if that’s the case.

You know all people are different, so why don't you accept it with the person you are with?

There are no real issues that I can see other than the following and this is a summary of your own post as I can see it:

Boredom, Negativity (possibly brooding from over thinking which confuses the best relationships), Relationship requires more effort, You're insecurity.

These can all be worked through if you can find a happy medium between being miss nervosa and trying to think about your boyfriend as a different person to you.

I think the girl doth protest too much. I tend to think that if you calm a little and address the issues at hand in a logical way and put them to him in summary..You might get through to him. To be honest the guy is probably confused with you and I think you are worrying way too much.
If you present your issues in a logical way, then give it time and see if things improve.
If not, save yourself and him the burn out and move on.

Overheal

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I have to be blunt so apologies in advance...

Why are you putting his happiness before your own? At what stage did his wants & needs become more important than yours? Why are you wishing he would have some sort of "hallelujah" moment & realise how nice you are to him - you do realise that's just another way of saying he doesn't appreciate you now?!

As soon as love got involved.

And an unrequited love at that, Martha. If he loved you you would be happy because he would strive to make it so. You have to let this go. Unrequited love hurts a lot, but what else can you do.

Miss Fluff

Being this needy is not going to help improve your self-esteem, you need to cut this guy loose.

Wibbs

marthaclark wrote: »

Anyway, to make a long story short. I have a tendency to break up with him. This he sees as very immature. It is very immature. It's attention seeking.

Yep on both counts.

I need him to tell me he loves me, so much that I fool myself into trying to force it out of him.

If you don't know by now if he loves you or not and need constant reassurance then the problem lies more at your feet(this is not to say he's not a boorish eejit BTW).

I find it really hard to convince myself that he loves me,

You shouldn't need to be convinced frankly.

and to be honest, he doesn't do anything to prove it.

Ok, yet...

He does things that show he cares, which I love him for.

Doing things is far better than saying things. Trust me on that. I've got mates going back a loooong time and they have consistently shown me that they love me and they're fellow blokes. If one of them sudenly turned around and said he loved me there might be trouble...:D Actions speak louder than words. Generalisation alert* some women can be a pain in the arse to deal with because of this attitude. So long as you're seen to be doing the right thing or saying the right things then fine. Actually doing the right thing is often less valued by some women. It's all about the show* end generalisation alert.

But there's nothing much on the love side of things..

If you can do me a favour and define love as you see it.

he's only told me he loves me twice without me saying it first. Which makes me scared to say it. I think I've heard it from him about 10 times.. including phonecalls and texts.

So what if he's doing things that show he cares?

I think he's of the opinion that relationships should be effortless. And that's great, I love that.. but there are times when they do require effort.

Agreed. The thing is some people require more effort than others. You may be one of them. He may be the other kind.

This is what I call the 'The Fear'.

Which is all about you and how you feel. Start to look there first.

So When I get the fear, I break up with him, and hope he crawls back.

Plus there's a power trip thing going on too. Mark me, one of these times he won't come back. Bet on it. Generalisation alert part II* Many men in relationships stay in them because they like the status quo. Why rock the boat, you have a partner and it can be too much effort to move from that and they'll tolerate the emotional weirdness(in their eyes) as breaking up is too much bother(and they care for you). IMHO more women do the breaking up. Of course, it's a sellers market, so they may feel they have more options. This is fine, but a point will be reached or he'll meet someone and you're history.

(All the while forgetting myself and my reasons for doing it in the first place.. just wanting and needing him.)

May be way of base here, but I think you're wanting and needing the attention he gives you. That need comes from your own issues and self worth.

We all have some level of emotional instability..

True enough.

but all my emotional instability seems to revolve around these things.

Your emotional stability revolves around your lack of self worth.

He mocks me, laughs at me, gives out to me for being upset..

Then he's being a knobend. Frankly he sounds like a guy that will jump at the first chance he gets.

but there is rarely any tenderness, or understanding, or comforting.

Then why are you with him? You describe a relationship that has little merit and you're not happy in so why are you in it? Again the answer lies with you.

But that doesn't feel like love. and god I want it to be love. I've wanted it to be love for the last 2+ years. I'm so in denial I don't know which way the river is running. I'm ambivalent.

You want it to be love? Best advice I can give you yet I suspect you wont take it is leave. Leave and find yourself. On your own. You judge yourself by the relationship you're in. You need that male attention to justify how you feel. No need to get too freudian about it but look into your past.

Am I too insecure to be secure in this relationship.. is this about me?

Yes. You wont be secure in any relationship, because no matter what he or any other guy does, it wont be enough until you learn who you are outside of a relationship.

Or is he too secure in the relationship.. is this all about him? Is he being emotionally selfish?

You're actually being the one who is more emotionally selfish. IMHO.

widi wrote:

Most boyfriends are walkers and not talkers.

I agree. Most guys are like that naturally or they learn it along the way. I've been both a walker and a talker. To be honest being a walker is less grief and is more effective. I have found engaging some women when they're in extremis is pointless and rarely works.

CrazyNoob

OP you are whats known as a head wrecker,

Seems to me you want it all on your terms and dont really discuss with him when he is ready
More you force the issue and the wade in with emotional baggage

Beruthiel

OP
I have nothing to add to Wibbs excellent post. Read it a couple of times because he's spot on.

You do need time alone to find yourself, to grow in confidence and self worth.

One telling point, you say he has told you 10 times that he loves you over a period of time but that's not enough.
I personally would not want to hear it more than that, hearing it too many times smacks of insincerity, it looses meaning. To hear it once in a blue moon means it really comes from the heart and means a hell of a lot more.

As Wibbs said, actions speak louder than words for me and the truth is in how he behaves and treats you on a daily basis.

If you were confident in yourself, you would know how fantastic you are. You would know that he is with you because he also sees how fantastic you are.
Not only would you realise that he is lucky to have you, but you would realise that he does too. And visa versa.

Marksie

All good points wibbs.

Yes its our insecurities that lead us to demand what we look for from others. We seek reaffirmation in our own self wroth through what others say they need ans see in us. Personally thoiugh i am very expressive, but dont expect it to be returned, but am delighted when it is..usually out of teh blue, better that than it being repeated by rote

yes Its a case of not accepting what is and loving without having the same expression in return.

Yes actions speak louder than words.

Yes some are wlkers not talker, or some like my self will ask for time to think and come back and talk.

BUt things like that can not be worked on.

But here Marthaclark knows the only way she can get a recation is by walking and her b/friend. Marthaclark is in her own head about this because of her own issues

I would agree with you right down the line in all this without hesitation (and therefore not post lol)

Except for this:

marthaclark wrote: »

THe mocks me, laughs at me, gives out to me for being upset.. but there is rarely any tenderness, or understanding, or comforting. even when I'm crying about things other than him. Which is embarassing.. because I've needed a few good cries in the past 12 months..

I initially wondered about this whether it ws just martha misreading

marthaclark wrote: »

and he's been there, trying to problem solve, totally missing or overlooking my emotional needs.

Esepcially as this is typical male doing this behaviour.... an expression of caring or helping


Until I read this:

marthaclark wrote: »

He rang a mutual friend while I was crying friday afternoon.. told them he couldn't go home cos I was going spare.. women eh? all that crap. then asked the guy if he could hear, and put the phone near me. he turned it into a joke. another joke, on me.
.

That was cruel and button pushing.
Sorry, but i would not dream of doing that.

In the end there are there are two of them in this.

WiBBS is right in what he says Marthaclark
But you are right in what you say

All around then you are not compatible.

You have to work on your issues, and he, well he has to realsie he has got them in the first place.

This time Martha, dont go back make the break clean

marthaclark

I guess I'm scared of doing something I regret. I would still be with him if it wasn't for the phonecall. How could anyone do that to someone they love? He obviously doesn't have that much respect for me. And I would have no self respect if I endorsed that kind of behaviour.

I never really want to break up with him, I wish I had the strength not to love. I break up because I feel I have no choice.. that he's hurting me.. that he's not able to see that.. that I'm not able for relationships. Something we've both said to each other. He says he wouldn't be in a relationship with anyone else.

It would be so black and white if I didn't have all these feelings for him. I think we could sort everything out.. if it wasn't for the cruel side of him. which my friend thinks runs in the family. thats neither here nor there. I'm just afraid of that part of him.

Why should love be so.. humiliating????

Bumblebee333

Hi Martha,

I was in what seems like the exact same situation a few years back, and like you I just couldnt leave. I was always dumping him, getting back together over and over. After 2 years (and although it KILLED me) I finally walked for good. This is when he started to take me seriously - when I backed up my words with actions. We always stayed in touch, and after another 2 years, got back together. What im saying is, maybe you need some time out? It will hurt, of course, but friends and family will get you through. It will give you both time to grow up a bit (god knows we both did), and if it is meant to be, you will get back together.

My other half always says now that us breaking up was a waste of time. But I think the opposite. If we never had split then, we would have HATED each other by now. God knows what could have happened. We're engaged now, but I promise you the man he was I would have never wanted to marry. Mocking, laughing.................exact same situation a you.

For your own sake, have a serious think about staying away this time. Have some YOU time. When you know what you want, talk to him. Im not saying you are guaranteed he will come back a changed man, but show him you are serious and he will listen.

What is meant for you wont pass you by!

Good luck

Wibbs

marthaclark wrote: »

I guess I'm scared of doing something I regret.

Often the things that scare us the most are the things that make us grow.

I would still be with him if it wasn't for the phonecall.

Really? Then by that criteria you would be very foolish considering what other issues you have with each other. Is this the straw that breaks the camels back? I would suspect these "straws" keep coming up from your side, time after time. Then to be forgotten because you can't handle the idea of being alone.

How could anyone do that to someone they love? He obviously doesn't have that much respect for me.

Sounds about right and here follows the reason why...

And I would have no self respect if I endorsed that kind of behaviour.

I never really want to break up with him,

I reckon if you are in a relationship where you can't imagine breaking up for any reason then it's a bad one. That is not to say that you should be one of those types that at the first sign of trouble..... There is a happy medium. A happy medium that is reached not through the other person, but through self discovery of who you are. The best relationships are between two separate individuals who choose to share themselves with another balanced individual. Don't feel too bad though, those relationships are very very rare. In my experience I can think of maybe 3 out of all the relationships I've known.

I wish I had the strength not to love.

A tad overwrought and dramatic, is it not? The strength not to love? Eh no. You need to first understand what love actually is, before you embark on trying to find it. If not you're like a miner looking for gold who doesn't know what colour it is.

I break up because I feel I have no choice..

Wrong. You break up to get a reaction. Plus you have a choice. You're not some dumb automaton that is ruled by her hormones or emotions. You have a brain. Use it.

that he's hurting me.. that he's not able to see that..

You tell him often enough and that's the problem. It's easy for him to ignore your episodes as he knows they'll pass. He tolerates those episodes and at those times looks at you as an over emotional child that has to be "handled". I suspect this as I have had two women in my life with similar issues. In both cases, it was easier to treat them as children as that's how they were acting. As an aside, I'll tell you this, I've seen too many women who think they're in an equal happy relationship that are, after the initial love and roses phase, merely tolerated by the men in their life. The men stay because that's easier to do and the regular sex helps and the women stay because their self regard is low and any relationship is better than none.

that I'm not able for relationships.

Sorry to get new agey, but that's because you don't have a relationship with yourself. That's why being alone or broken up terrifies you. Better to be in something bad than have to face the possible hard look at yourself. Very common.

Something we've both said to each other. He says he wouldn't be in a relationship with anyone else.

People say lots of things they don't mean, especially in the hothouse that is a relationship, or at least they mean them at the time. If people didn't move on their would be no breakups. If both of you find who you are first, then you can have successful relationships. It may even be with each other. This is especially true for you as you're the one looking for help(fair play) and going on your description of your actions, you would need to be very lucky to find someone easy going enough to take that. I would consider myself very easy going and accommodating, but I would have walked after a couple of those episodes. It would actually be bad if you did find such a creature, as you would never learn who it is to be you and he would fall into the easy role of tolerating you. Not good.

if it wasn't for the cruel side of him. which my friend thinks runs in the family. thats neither here nor there. I'm just afraid of that part of him.

It's the part of you that will allow it that is the problem. Not him or his family.

Why should love be so.. humiliating????

If it's love it's not humiliating. Knock this romantic passionate, oh woe is me stuff on the head. It's not love and it's not healthy. You can't expect anyone but you to "cure" you. No matter how often they say they love you. I suspect he could never say it enough for you to believe it. In fact I further suspect the day you did believe it, would be the day he would start to look less interesting. People who regard themselves so little, seek out those situations or people who confirm that belief. They would rather be "right" than happy. The joke is that there's a part of you likes his lack of emotional involvement as it confirms to you that which you already believe. IE you don't deserve it. The day you believe someone loves you, you will subconsciously think them lesser as you know it not to be true.

Learn who you are on your own. That's the path to being a better person that will find love and know what it is.

marthaclark

Wibbs.

I think you are being very unfair and judgemental. I don't know what sort of 'emotional woman-child' you think I am, but you are being very presumptious in thinking you can compare or in effect dump me with all these other 'impossible' women you know. I'm not demanding. I can be needy, but I'm not demanding. It's only recently I've become good at even stating my needs. Before I used to wait around hoping someone was capable of telepathy. Also remember you don't know the full story of this relationship, the good as well as the bad.

Wibbs wrote: »

you would be very foolish considering what other issues you have with each other. Is this the straw that breaks the camels back? I would suspect these "straws" keep coming up from your side, time after time. Then to be forgotten because you can't handle the idea of being alone. Sounds about right and here follows the reason why...

they aren't straws and your trivialisation of what is in effect, a very personal issue is out of line. i asked for advice, not judgement. This isn't constructive, it's actually demeaning.

Wibbs wrote: »

I reckon if you are in a relationship where you can't imagine breaking up for any reason then it's a bad one. That is not to say that you should be one of those types that at the first sign of trouble..... There is a happy medium. A happy medium that is reached not through the other person, but through self discovery of who you are. The best relationships are between two separate individuals who choose to share themselves with another balanced individual. Don't feel too bad though, those relationships are very very rare. In my experience I can think of maybe 3 out of all the relationships I've known.

Wibbs wrote: »

A tad overwrought and dramatic, is it not? The strength not to love? Eh no. You need to first understand what love actually is, before you embark on trying to find it.

presumptious AND insulting. I love him. I wouldn't be here if I didn't. I've kicked out a lot of bad people in my life. parents, for example. And to this day I'm not sure I love them. I know I love this man for the plain fact that I am always willing to try to understand him. I just wish he would do me the same favour.

Wibbs wrote: »

Wrong. You break up to get a reaction. Plus you have a choice. You're not some dumb automaton that is ruled by her hormones or emotions. You have a brain. Use it.

Offensive, again. I repeat, I do not break up to get a reaction. I break up because I feel there is nothing I can do to get a reaction. That I have to, for my own sake. Because loving him is too hard.

Wibbs wrote: »

You tell him often enough and that's the problem. It's easy for him to ignore your episodes as he knows they'll pass. He tolerates those episodes and at those times looks at you as an over emotional child that has to be "handled".

he doesn't handle much really. he walks away. Handling would be better than nothing. Emotional support shouldn't be too much to ask.

Wibbs wrote: »

I suspect this as I have had two women in my life with similar issues. In both cases, it was easier to treat them as children as that's how they were acting. As an aside, I'll tell you this, I've seen too many women who think they're in an equal happy relationship that are, after the initial love and roses phase, merely tolerated by the men in their life. The men stay because that's easier to do and the regular sex helps and the women stay because their self regard is low and any relationship is better than none. Sorry to get new agey, but that's because you don't have a relationship with yourself. That's why being alone or broken up terrifies you. Better to be in something bad than have to face the possible hard look at yourself. Very common.

I've been on my own. It's survivable. And even in the relationship, I often like to feel that I can be on my own. Whatever. I would miss this guy. I have never felt this way about anyone, he's been my best friend. I feel like I know him so well, trust and respect him. I just wonder why he can't do that for me.

Wibbs wrote: »

People say lots of things they don't mean, especially in the hothouse that is a relationship, or at least they mean them at the time. If people didn't move on their would be no breakups. If both of you find who you are first, then you can have successful relationships. It may even be with each other. This is especially true for you as you're the one looking for help(fair play) and going on your description of your actions, you would need to be very lucky to find someone easy going enough to take that. I would consider myself very easy going and accommodating, but I would have walked after a couple of those episodes. It would actually be bad if you did find such a creature, as you would never learn who it is to be you and he would fall into the easy role of tolerating you. Not good.

I'm sorry but this sounds like a load of crap to me. I know who I am. I need someone who can accept who I am, and not try to point out all my faults and try to change me. To just love me for who I am. I have issues, hello, I didn't come from nowhere. We all have a past of some description, and few of us escape it unfazed. However, I am on my own road of self actualizing. I don't need some guy to come along to say I told you so everytime I do something wrong. Or make a mistake. I need someone to be proud of me, to acknowledge when I do good things, to actually see who I am. If my exc was a parent, he would be the kind that only gives bad feedback and is emotionally unavailable. the male equivalent of a refridgerator mother. whatever. he supplies me with answers, he listens to me, he can provide for me in terms of food, shelter, outings etc. But I really just need love. Acceptance. Support. I can't see how this is too much to ask.

Wibbs wrote: »

If it's love it's not humiliating. Knock this romantic passionate, oh woe is me stuff on the head. It's not love and it's not healthy. You can't expect anyone but you to "cure" you.

I don't need to be cured. This is also really insulting.

Wibbs wrote: »

I suspect he could never say it enough for you to believe it. In fact I further suspect the day you did believe it, would be the day he would start to look less interesting. People who regard themselves so little, seek out those situations or people who confirm that belief. They would rather be "right" than happy. The joke is that there's a part of you likes his lack of emotional involvement as it confirms to you that which you already believe. IE you don't deserve it. The day you believe someone loves you, you will subconsciously think them lesser as you know it not to be true.

I do deserve love. I'm a damn good girlfriend. After everything he's done, not done, said and not said, I am still here trying to work my head around my heart. I've supported him through an awful lot. Selflessly. He's told me ihmself he doesn't deserve me. He said that again after he apologised for his last girlfriend. I don't have perfect self esteem, but I have a lot to offer this guy. I.e., love and acceptance, trust and respect. I just worry that it'll be wasted on him, because he doesn't seem capable of giving me the same back. And I deserve it. I don't give to receive, but it'd be nice to not feel used and wasted. I'd like him to not f*ck this up. That's all. Everytime he humiliates me or knocks me back he makes it harder for me to love him. Namely because I have to bury my love in favour of some measure of self respect. I need to be able to be vulnerable with him without getting burned.

Marksie

To be honest marthaclark, i have never known wibbs to give offensive advice.

I may not agree with some of his assessments at times, but usually he is working to help you to understand yourself .

and this is what it comes down to.
I saw your love is humiliating comment and thought no. It shuldnt be.

TBH i do think you have issues there Martha on your definition of love and how you view it.

I do talk about vulnerability and acceptance, from the context that in showing it you get your partner to open themselves. But this is not happening.
But there comes a point where this vulnerablity begins to move to martyrdom if you are not careful.
Plus the vulnerability is done from an open direct suorce not from neediness. Whihc yours is.

Its known as obliging behaviour and the person who believes they are doing all the giving often feels that when it isnt returned in the same manner, then feelings dont exist at all.

If you ARE on the road to self actualising then you will recognise the behaviour patterns

But i stand over my earlier statement that you simply arent right for each other.

You can't see this and really you do need to get out of it, the fact is looking at . This seesawing breaking up back together in the long term is not good.

If yu feel humiliated then WHAT is it doing to your self esteem?

Oryx

Im not getting into whether all this is caused by insecurity or not.

But Id like to recommend a book, http://www.fivelovelanguages.com/which might help, it deals with the different ways in which people express and show love.

Catari Jaguar

The more of an ass and the more distant he is makes you more clingy attention seeking and "in love".

There are 2 people in a relationship, one is always the chaser and the other the chasee.

It's like a cat and a rubber mouse, dangle it and the cat will go mad trying to get it. Give it to the cat and they won't want it.

I reckon if he started to get clingy or attached and loving you'd get bored. I would bet money that you would lose respect for him if he started to show love for you because I don't think you feel worthy of love, as you don't love yourself and that's why you are on a such a headfcuk..

Marksie

Lil Kitten wrote: »

love for you because I don't think you feel worthy of love, as you don't love yourself .

and that is a fundamental tantric principle and where you should be coming from Martha

Wibbs

marthaclark wrote: »

Wibbs.

I think you are being very unfair and judgemental.

Fair enough. It could be read like that. It is certainly not meant that way. It's meant purely as my take on the situation. Nothing more. Nothing less. One of the best rules I have learned in life is that nothing is personal. Sounds weird I grant you, but bear with me. No matter what anyone says to you or indeed does to you, it comes from them and their perception of you. A perception that may be at complete odds with you and your life. If I call you a moany so and so, how would you react? If I call you a martian, or a dirty communist, how would you react to that? Why are the latter two not likely to cause offence? Among other reasons it's because they have no personal relevance to your life. You know you're not a martian etc so it means nothing. You always give the power of insult to another. This is useful even in relationships when a situation comes up. Don't always take it at it's most personal. It could be he's a muppet, or simply you're not compatible or at that time you're not singing from the same hymn sheet.

I don't know what sort of 'emotional woman-child' you think I am, but you are being very presumptious in thinking you can compare or in effect dump me with all these other 'impossible' women you know.

For a start it's not all these women I know. It was some and it wasn't all the time and some were worse than others. Sliding scale type o thang. Everyone can be a muppet, but there is a level whereby it gets wearing.

I'm not demanding. I can be needy, but I'm not demanding.

Needy is demanding. I've been on the other side of the fence and have had needy people around and it is very demanding when they're looking for reassurance that will never be enough.

It's only recently I've become good at even stating my needs. Before I used to wait around hoping someone was capable of telepathy.

Well clearly the first way of working was pointless so that's a hell of a good start.

Also remember you don't know the full story of this relationship, the good as well as the bad.

Well of course I don't. I'm neither him nor you. I'm only going on what you've written. I realise that it's not all the time and there's good too, but it's how you describe the situation that makes me comment thus.

they aren't straws and your trivialisation of what is in effect, a very personal issue is out of line. i asked for advice, not judgement. This isn't constructive, it's actually demeaning.

Now you're being defensive. I was not being judgemental that is your perception. I stand by that comment and I suspect it's the same "straws" or variations on a theme over time. There comes a point when nothing will change. When that point is reached you need to take a step back at the very least or this will keep on happening.

presumptious AND insulting. I love him. I wouldn't be here if I didn't. I've kicked out a lot of bad people in my life. parents, for example. And to this day I'm not sure I love them. I know I love this man for the plain fact that I am always willing to try to understand him. I just wish he would do me the same favour.

Love is a two way street. This is the bit you're missing IMHO. Extreme example. I fall in love with a random woman on the street. I never tell her but I love her with all my heart and think about her all the time. That's not love. Love requires two people. Love that is too one sided is like being on a see saw where only one is pushing off the ground. Not much of a see saw. Of course love involves understanding. That's part of it. It goes without saying. If he isn't doing that well then you're on the wrong see saw.

Offensive, again. I repeat, I do not break up to get a reaction. I break up because I feel there is nothing I can do to get a reaction. That I have to, for my own sake. Because loving him is too hard.

How is that offensive pray tell? You don't break up to get a reaction? Yet you go on to say in balck and white you break up because you don't get a reaction, which of course gets a reaction when he wants back. "Loving him is too hard" is again "love" from one side, yours. In the final analysis and on balance loving someone should add to your life not subtract.

he doesn't handle much really. he walks away. Handling would be better than nothing. Emotional support shouldn't be too much to ask.

I hate to point out the obvious, but walking away is handling you. Possible scenario in his head. "Oh oh, she's off again and saying the same things I don't want to deal with(for whatever reason), I know, I'll walk away until she's calmed the hell down and normal service will be resumed". That's handling you.

I've been on my own. It's survivable. And even in the relationship, I often like to feel that I can be on my own. Whatever. I would miss this guy. I have never felt this way about anyone, he's been my best friend. I feel like I know him so well, trust and respect him. I just wonder why he can't do that for me

Being on one's own should be more than just survivable. It should be fine. Not a problem. A time for yourself and a time to let rip and find out more about you, to take into the next relationship. Just because someone has been on their own, does not make that person a whole individual.

Again you know, trust and respect him and by your account he doesn't return the feelings which should be a given. Why are you still around? If this is the case then this is an unhealthy one sided relationship. You know that yourself, but yet you stay. Why? I'm sorry but when a relationship is one sided to the degree you say, then "Cos I love him" is not an answer, it's an excuse.

I'm sorry but this sounds like a load of crap to me.

Fair enough. I've been known to talk it.

I know who I am. I need someone who can accept who I am, and not try to point out all my faults and try to change me. To just love me for who I am. I have issues, hello, I didn't come from nowhere. We all have a past of some description, and few of us escape it unfazed. However, I am on my own road of self actualizing. I don't need some guy to come along to say I told you so everytime I do something wrong. Or make a mistake. I need someone to be proud of me, to acknowledge when I do good things, to actually see who I am.

Sounds a good roadmap. Again something is missing in this current relationship yet you love the guy and want him back, but with a different attitude to you and how you feel. I tell you people rarely change unless they want too. Maybe like Bumblebee333 distance may make him see sense, but that tool her and her bloke two years to get to.

If my exc was a parent, he would be the kind that only gives bad feedback and is emotionally unavailable. the male equivalent of a refridgerator mother. whatever. he supplies me with answers, he listens to me, he can provide for me in terms of food, shelter, outings etc. But I really just need love. Acceptance. Support. I can't see how this is too much to ask.

It's not, but just maybe the guy you love is not the guy to give you that. Now he provides you with answers and listens to you. That's good. He can also provide for you in practical terms. Again very good. If he's listening to you and trying to provide answers that's a good way towards supporting you too. He's been there for you and apparently accepted you in that time as he did stick around, so what in particular do you feel is missing. I'm not taking the píss here either I'm genuinely interested.

I don't need to be cured. This is also really insulting.

It's again not meant to be. Cured is short hand for someone looking for another person, usually a partner who will finally help them accept themselves. If you weren't looking for that you wouldn't still be fighting to get it from a man who by your account is not supplying that.

I do deserve love.

I think we both deserve and earn love. It's not freely given or received in isolation.

I'm a damn good girlfriend. After everything he's done, not done, said and not said, I am still here trying to work my head around my heart. I've supported him through an awful lot. Selflessly. He's told me ihmself he doesn't deserve me. He said that again after he apologised for his last girlfriend. I don't have perfect self esteem, but I have a lot to offer this guy. I.e., love and acceptance, trust and respect. I just worry that it'll be wasted on him, because he doesn't seem capable of giving me the same back. And I deserve it. I don't give to receive, but it'd be nice to not feel used and wasted. I'd like him to not f*ck this up. That's all. Everytime he humiliates me or knocks me back he makes it harder for me to love him. Namely because I have to bury my love in favour of some measure of self respect. I need to be able to be vulnerable with him without getting burned.

I agree but it does sound like you're banging your head against a brick wall. Why not stop. That's all I'm saying. Love conquers all, only in fairytales. In life it can, but only if it's on both sides.

marthaclark

well some of you might be glad to know that i am still broken up with my horrible cold cruel humiliating boyfriend and it's been 12 days now and he seems to have really accepted it.

great.

now i can be an emotional needy lonely woman-child all by myself and he can find someone else.

Marksie

marthaclark wrote: »

now i can be an emotional needy lonely woman-child all by myself and he can find someone else.

OR you can stop sulking at posters here and coming across as full of self pity, realise that you ARE an emotional needy lonely woman-child and do something about it.

Then you can find someone else.

Something more healthy and balanced because A) you will be more balanced and you wont fall for the same things again, or at least will spot it and be able to rectify it in its early stages.

Aurora Borealis

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

If this is how much you love your fella, imagine the kind of relationship you could have with a man who ticks all your boxes?

An aside from the original post really but this comment really struck a chord with me and gives me great solace for future relationships. Pretty cool to know you can love and be completely happy with and committed to one person... but concentrating on doing all that with me for the moment.

In no rush for another big love but it'll be great when it happens and I'll know some of the pitfalls to avoid in my own behaviour and theirs.

RedXIV

Whether you like it or not lass, Wibbs has nailed your situation perfectly. Based on what you've written I can't offer a singel piece of advice that Wibbs hasn't already written. You're method of grabbing attention, "breaking up", is a horrible idea and inevitably going to end up with a bad result, that should never be considered the only option to gauge a reaction.

But if the guy had you crying on the phone to one of his mates, would that not give you an indication that this isn't the relationship for you? get out of it, find a new guy and lose the break up tactic. your single now so all thats stopping you is your own inhibitions

Wibbs

marthaclark wrote: »

well some of you might be glad to know that i am still broken up with my horrible cold cruel humiliating boyfriend and it's been 12 days now and he seems to have really accepted it.

I would not be glad you're going through a breakup, but I would be happier knowing that your out of a one sided relationship where you were working far too hard to sustain it.

now i can be an emotional needy lonely woman-child all by myself and he can find someone else.

IMHO Marksie nails it. This is the time for you to find yourself and not look for someone else in the same vein or this may happen again. Indeed I would put money it will if you don't.

Mr. Incognito

Martha,

You have a cycle of breaking up for attention and love. Life isn't a romantic novel. Relationships are about comfort, compromise and compassion. You seem to view a relationsip as how many times a day he say's I love you. You're views are frankly, immature and egotistical. Posters have come on here and given excellent advise and then you lay another emotional trip pulling the walls down and pointing out how wrong they are and once again how it's all his fault for walking away from your, frankly, craziness.

You need some time alone to live in the real world.

milkerman

Martha, I think you should take on board the advice offered here (particularly Wibbs').
On a related topic. You said in one of your posts you had 'difficult parents'. We are what our parents make us. I guess that you have serious self worth issues. Were you rejected/criticised by your parents? Do you need your partner to constantly reassure you and acknowledge your worth? You might find someone willing to do this but they are rare.
BTW your ex B/F sounds like a b*llox in many respects.
Take some time to look at yourself and sort out your own issues. Then you will find someone decent.
Best Wishes

marthaclark

I don't think my issues are sort-outable. There is some sort of void inside me and I know that no one will ever fill it.. because it needs to be filled unconditionally, and it should have been when I was younger. I just wish someone could accept it. My past is always going to be a part of who I am. I'm always trivialised and devalidated.l i've been dismissed too many times in my life. I just want to know why it is.. and I don't.

I'm not egotistical. I'd just like to exist in someone's head as something more than a convenience. Because I'm inconvenient sometimes. so shoot me. so was he.

very inconvenient in fact.

Oryx

marthaclark wrote: »

I don't think my issues are sort-outable.

Yes, they are. Thats just a handy excuse not to.

There is some sort of void inside me and I know that no one will ever fill it..

Noone else ever should. You have to fill it yourself. Expecting someone else to is always doomed to failure.

because it needs to be filled unconditionally, and it should have been when I was younger.

Yes, children should receive unconditional love. As ideally should adults. But looking back at what you should have had is useless. You cant go back and fix it now, so move on.
Nothing is ideal, but the situation youve described in this thread was more unfortunate than usual. I hope you get past the pain and appreciate being out of it.

I just wish someone could accept it.

Maybe someone will. But if you want unconditional love, be prepared to give it fully, too.

My past is always going to be a part of who I am.

Undoubtedly.

I'm always trivialised and devalidated.l i've been dismissed too many times in my life. I just want to know why it is..

Could it be because you didnt stand up for yourself at times when you should have? You earn respect by being strong.

I'm not egotistical. I'd just like to exist in someone's head as something more than a convenience. Because I'm inconvenient sometimes. so shoot me. so was he.

Your not egotistical. Youre hurt. You and him sound messed up together, just wrong for each other, to be honest.

In short, if you want someone else to value you, value yourself.

Ickle Magoo

Maybe you could try going to councelling? I had a tough childhood & when I became a parent I found it very difficult, councelling certainly helped. If you suffered from rejection in childhood, maybe you are drawn to people who don't pay you the attentions they should? Of course, I don't know your story.

We are all inconvenient at times, I know I am but ultimately you deserve to be loved & appreciated by someone who revels in all your good points & accepts all your bad points are still part of you. You won't find anyone who appreciates you in that way, until you realise you are worth being loved & treated really well & won't accept anything less.

marthaclark

KtK wrote: »

Yes, they are. Thats just a handy excuse not to.

no. they are not. they are outside of my control. a lot of things in life are outside of ones control. I'm not going into it but I've spent most of my teenage years on my own. living independantly or in care. I'm not looking for pity but you seem to think these sort of things are sort-outable. no. they are not. i need to be independant, but no ones perfect and my friends come to me for help, because i am so 'strong'. Most of my friends have better things to be doing than trying to sort things out for me that they just can't sort out. It's tough ****. It's not sort-outable. It's just tough ****.

Noone else ever should. You have to fill it yourself. Expecting someone else to is always doomed to failure.

I know no one else can fill it. I never said otherwise.

Yes, children should receive unconditional love. As ideally should adults. But looking back at what you should have had is useless. You cant go back and fix it now, so move on.

I am, but I'm also not going to pretend my life is perfect and put on some kind of front. I'm never guaranteed anywhere to go for Xmas, is that my fault? I have no one to pay my bills, unless I rely on the government. Again, it's not my fault my life isn't perfect. I'm trying to get on with it. I don't expect special treatment, just acceptance. As I said, It's tough ****. But I'm not going to pretend I have the same things my friends have. And It's not my fault people find it hard to understand. I don't talk about it much, but there's not much to understand. I don't enjoy making people feel uncomfortable. But they do. I've spent the last 6 xmas with 6 different families, and felt nothing but uncomfortable. It's easier to get on with it, believe me.

Maybe someone will. But if you want unconditional love, be prepared to give it fully, too.

I'm too good at loving unconditionally. I live through my friends, and possibly through my boyfriend. I give them everything I want, because if I don't, how can I ever expect to be entitled to it. I loved my ex unconditionally. I still love him, even though he is an asshole. If that's not unconditional I don't know what is.

Could it be because you didnt stand up for yourself at times when you should have? You earn respect by being strong.

I have spent a lot of time being strong. My ex says I'm the strongest person I know. people know I can be strong, but can I not be weak sometimes? Hello? Things get to me. I get lonely, or things go wrong and I feel like I'm suddenly imposing on people. I just want somewhere safe. I don't think that's unreasonable. Or demanding. It's a need.

In short, if you want someone else to value you, value yourself.

I do. I just can't get other people to.

marthaclark

marthaclark wrote: »

I have no one to pay my bills, unless I rely on the government.

I don't know if I missed something but do people not usually pay their own bills

I give them everything I want, because if I don't, how can I ever expect to be entitled to it. I loved my ex unconditionally.

Um, unconditionally doesn't mean you should feel "entitled" to anything back.
If you are only giving things to people to buy their affection, you might as well stop now

I do. I just can't get other people to.

It's not really about "getting" other people to value you ...

marthaclark

bluewolf wrote: »

I don't know if I missed something but do people not usually pay their own bills

not many people my age. not many people from 16+. But in a way it's good, I've learned a lot about budgeting, and being resilient. Not to mention a lot of hard work. So I don't feel 'disadvantaged'. I think I'm lucky I learnt these things young.

Um, unconditionally doesn't mean you should feel "entitled" to anything back.

I don't feel entitled to anything. I don't have any god given rights, that's been proved to me. I just think i kinda deserve it the way everyone ideally deserves it, in a perfect world. especially children. my best chance of getting it is to keep my heart open.

If you are only giving things to people to buy their affection, you might as well stop now

god you people jump to conclusions. I've nothing to buy affection with. All I have is who I am. Is being myself some sort of manipulative tool now? :rolleyes:

It's not really about "getting" other people to value you ...

well being valued is important, or I should think it is in healthy relationships. It's not like I'm forcing people to value me, I'd just like to be valued. :rolleyes:

marthaclark

marthaclark wrote:

god you people jump to conclusions. I've nothing to buy affection with. All I have is who I am. Is being myself some sort of manipulative tool now? :rolleyes:

perhaps I misread

I give them everything I want, because if I don't, how can I ever expect to be entitled to it.

then?

marthaclark

well I'm less likely to get it if I'm a complete asshole.

I appreciate people for who they are and treat them with the same respect, loyalty and understanding that I myself would like.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you??

It's not rocket science. I'm sure jesus said something to that effect.

Cos jesus is a horrible person who tries to force goodness out of people.

hate that jesus guy. man.

Ickle Magoo

marthaclark wrote: »

I appreciate people for who they are and treat them with the same respect, loyalty and understanding that I myself would like.

Maybe try it a slightly different way...look at the respect, loyalty & understanding you would like & only give it to people who treat you that way?

marthaclark

marthaclark wrote: »

well I'm less likely to get it if I'm a complete asshole.

I appreciate people for who they are and treat them with the same respect, loyalty and understanding that I myself would like.

From what I am reading you view your relationships with people in terms of what you can get from them in terms of understanding and respect

martha, i think you should go speak to a counsellor, based on what i have read of your posts in this thread. this is not meant to insult you, but i think there is work you need to do and this could help.
you seem to be basing a lot of your happiness on how you feel you are viewed by others and what you can get from them and this is only a recipe for trouble for yourself.

marthaclark

yeah.. ickle magoo, that's probably a good idea but i do try to spot the users.. it's annoying when you realise you're completely wasted on some people.

well, it's more disheartening than annoying. I really believe I was good to my ex. he said it himself, 'best girlfriend ever'. it was our joke thing.

the thing about people is you usually find out the hard way.

marthaclark

bluewolf wrote: »

From what I am reading you view your relationships with people in terms of what you can get from them in terms of understanding and respect

Jesus christ.. i don't think wanting some understanding and respect is unreasonable. I willingly enter into relationships with people because I like them, or we have something in common, because I get on with them. It'd be nice if understanding and respect was a prt of that, no?

martha, i think you should go speak to a counsellor, based on what i have read of your posts in this thread. this is not meant to insult you, but i think there is work you need to do and this could help.
you seem to be basing a lot of your happiness on how you feel you are viewed by others and what you can get from them and this is only a recipe for trouble for yourself.

I've tried counselling. I'm not really good at keeping the appointments. That pisses counsellors off, and really, that's more than understandable.

I'm also scared of becoming any more self absorbed and self-pitying. I'm trying to get over myself. Believe me.

Ickle Magoo

I think when you are in a relationship & you are not completely happy, you need to ask yourself what needs to change. If you discuss your emotional needs with your partner & they are still not being met, then it is time to vote with your feet. There is no point hanging around throwing your love at someone in the vain hope the realise what they should be doing for you. You have to sit them down & spell it out. If they can't meet your needs then that's the end of that relationship.

What's the point of being the best girlfriend he ever had? What do you get out of that? I think you need to look after your own needs & wants. It's supposed to be a partnership. You look after him & he looks after you. 50/50. Don't be in a hurry to fall in love until you are sure he wants to meet your needs.

It sounds from your posts like you don't have a lot of people you can talk to. I still think councelling is a good idea. There is no shame in using a professional as a sounding board to get your head sorted.

marthaclark

marthaclark wrote:

I'm also scared of becoming any more self absorbed and self-pitying. I'm trying to get over myself. Believe me.

It doesn't actually make you more self absorbed or self pitying, it can be very helpful in helping you get "over yourself", unlikely as it may sound - they are a sounding board and not someone who would rather be elsewhere (if they are a good counsellor anyway)

if you are "not really good" at keeping appointments, improve your general timekeeping or make more of a commitment to going

"Jesus christ.. i don't think wanting some understanding and respect is unreasonable. "
No, but you need to start with understanding and respecting yourself first and foremost, and it does not come across to me that you do

and most importantly you just don't sound happy by a long shot.

marthaclark

yeah I guess i should look into counselling. I'd used to go to a counsellor with COMHAR and it really helped for the time I was doing my leaving cert.

It's kinda pathetic when you have people being paid to listen to you though. I always feel sorry for them.