The road to systems analyst

cronos

I am looking to become a systems analyst. I am graduating this year and have a job lined up as a tester in an IT Consultancy. Here are the topics I will need to cover to become a systems analyst.

Software Development Life-Cycle – focused on business analysis and requirements gathering, project management, quality assurance and testing, support for design and development
OO Design using UML
Software Development basics including Java, SQL and PL/SQL
Business requirements elicitation and specification
System design specification including UI design
Quality Assurance – Test planning, test case preparation and execution using industry standard tools
Project management for Systems Analysis
Business knowledge acquisition and application to IT projects

What is the career path from tester just out of college to senior business analyst. What certifications can I gain that are well respected worldwide and cover the topics mentioned above. If you happen to know can you also please let me know the cost of each certification. If you think their is a masters/phd/mba which would be more usefull than a cert in this case please let me know. Thanks

Ginger

Before looking at the Senior bit, take a look at the junior bit! Senior Analyst is roughly depending on the company and quality of the title is anything from 5 to 10 years.

Anyways most of this comes with time and its not a case of passing an exam and you get the title. I am not trying to put you down here, I am just offering real world advice.

If I were you, I would look at PMP or Prince2 tho this may be a bit too far ahead as you have no real project experience yet nor have you the experience of designing, requirements or QA.

Talk to your employer once you have settled in and see if you can do a lateral move to JSA and see what they say. A lot of this stuff comes from experience.

7croghan

Totally agree with ginger here - You really can't expect to walk out of college into a senior BA role - I am with a company where the age for BA's would be starting at roughly mid-thirties - which would imply about 10 years or more experience.

Ginger

Right let me walk through this so that you can get an idea of what it is involved

Software Development Life-Cycle – focused on business analysis and requirements gathering, project management, quality assurance and testing, support for design and development

All the above mainly comes from experience, especially when looking at business analysis and requirements gathering. Its the ability to identify what the customer is really looking for, by knowing what questions to ask to get the information you need. It comes with time. You can certify with project management and QA and testing methods.

OO Design using UML

Can be taught but requires knowledge of the previous topic

Software Development basics including Java, SQL and PL/SQL

I am guessing this is specific to the systems analyst job you are looking at. Most of the System analysts i know would have a broader knowledge of technologies and systems. Again you may study it in college, but a lot of enterprise applications are way beyond the scope of what you learn in college.

Business requirements elicitation and specification

Again comes from experience. This goes back to the earlier comment of knowing what question to ask to get the required info from your customer. THis can take a while to get used to. Writing up specifications is a couple of things. It is understanding the requirements and translating them into the specs.

System design specification including UI design

System design is a discipline in itself! Believe me, understanding complex large scale systems is a tricky thing. You need to understand messaging, interop and also scaling. UI design is another complex part. It comes from experience, and also looking at your user base and target market.

Quality Assurance – Test planning, test case preparation and execution using industry standard tools

One thing from your testing experience you will learn QA. Because if its misses the test you will get angry users and your asses kicked!!

Project management for Systems Analysis

Looks like specific to your job profile, but inderstanding time planning and people management as well as deadline management comes with time and training.

What is the career path from tester just out of college to senior business analyst. What certifications can I gain that are well respected worldwide and cover the topics mentioned above. If you happen to know can you also please let me know the cost of each certification. If you think their is a masters/phd/mba which would be more usefull than a cert in this case please let me know. Thanks

Career path from junior tester to senior system analyst, is about 10 years ish.. Firstly you are looking at going from JT to Tester to JSA to SA to SSA. Again it depends on the company and quality of title. No point in being a Senior Systems Analyst if everyone else is in your company!!!

cronos

Thanks for your posts, when I said the road to systems analyst in the title of the OP I was refering to the fact that it would take a lot of time. I am aware that you cant get a senior role in anything never mind systems analyst straight out of college. What would be the point of calling it "senior" in that case, im in my early 20's. Basically I am looking for the quickest path though. Here is an example of a job out of college that I think would have helped but I didnt make it after the second interview for this program.
https://fidelity.taleo.net/servlets/CareerSection?art_ip_action=FlowDispatcher&flowTypeNo=13&pageSeq=2&reqNo=122602&art_servlet_language=en&csNo=10140#topOfCsPage
But I thought their may be similar programs or graduate jobs available

cronos

Ginger wrote: »

Before looking at the Senior bit, take a look at the junior bit! Senior Analyst is roughly depending on the company and quality of the title is anything from 5 to 10 years.

Anyways most of this comes with time and its not a case of passing an exam and you get the title. I am not trying to put you down here, I am just offering real world advice.

If I were you, I would look at PMP or Prince2 tho this may be a bit too far ahead as you have no real project experience yet nor have you the experience of designing, requirements or QA.

Talk to your employer once you have settled in and see if you can do a lateral move to JSA and see what they say. A lot of this stuff comes from experience.

Well really what I am looking for is ideas on how to start off as a JSA as I have nearly a couple of years experience coming out of college. Spent 8 months working on networks and desktop support then a year doing second level tech support and testing for a financial services company. I would like a job that trained me to become a successful JSA as I am sure I still have things to learn.

BostonB

I would say go contracting. Try to choose jobs that have elements of your spec for system analyst. I'd say pure development roles and technical Business Analyst roles would be on the right route. I don't think a jnr system analyst route exists, as you are hoping for. Your #1 piority is to get out of support and testing and into any development role.

cronos

BostonB wrote: »

I would say go contracting. Try to choose jobs that have elements of your spec for system analyst. I'd say pure development roles and technical Business Analyst roles would be on the right route. I don't think a jnr system analyst route exists, as you are hoping for. Your #1 piority is to get out of support and testing and into any development role.

Well do I need to be a developer first, is it possible to skip being a developer and just train up on development skills. As a JSA I more than likley wouldnt have to write code I would be doing requirements and QA type stuff.

cronos

Is their a difference between systems and business analyst.

Ginger

cronos wrote: »

Thanks for your posts, when I said the road to systems analyst in the title of the OP I was refering to the fact that it would take a lot of time. I am aware that you cant get a senior role in anything never mind systems analyst straight out of college. What would be the point of calling it "senior" in that case, im in my early 20's. Basically I am looking for the quickest path though. Here is an example of a job out of college that I think would have helped but I didnt make it after the second interview for this program.
https://fidelity.taleo.net/servlets/CareerSection?art_ip_action=FlowDispatcher&flowTypeNo=13&pageSeq=2&reqNo=122602&art_servlet_language=en&csNo=10140#topOfCsPage
But I thought their may be similar programs or graduate jobs available

Fidelity have a graduate program... doing this by the normal route would be slightly different and would possibly take longer. I am sure Deutche Bank, Ersnt & Young and Accenture all have similar programs. Its partly on the job training and experience coupled with a learning plan.

Are you looking for a job at the moment or have you got one

cronos

Ginger wrote: »

Fidelity have a graduate program... doing this by the normal route would be slightly different and would possibly take longer. I am sure Deutche Bank, Ersnt & Young and Accenture all have similar programs. Its partly on the job training and experience coupled with a learning plan.

Are you looking for a job at the moment or have you got one

Ya I dont know if ya saw the link in my last post but I had a link to that Fidelity program I got a second interview but didnt get in. I have a job offer from BearingPoint but I am just wondering if this is the best way to go to be a systems analyst. As they dont have a program similar to that of the GIFT program with fidelity.

Ginger

cronos wrote: »

Well really what I am looking for is ideas on how to start off as a JSA as I have nearly a couple of years experience coming out of college. Spent 8 months working on networks and desktop support then a year doing second level tech support and testing for a financial services company. I would like a job that trained me to become a successful JSA as I am sure I still have things to learn.

Being honest, in college experience means very little once you graduated. Sure you may have co-op experience but thats it nothing really much else. But everyone knows that..

Depending on the company, it may be hard to move from tester to JSA. But if you ask they should be ok with the move if there is room.

Ginger

Well then thats not a bad company to be starting in. You can gain a lot from them. See how you get on and apply for internal jobs once you are there.

cronos

Ginger wrote: »

Well then thats not a bad company to be starting in. You can gain a lot from them. See how you get on and apply for internal jobs once you are there.

So do you think I should be aiming for a position like that of the GIFT program with fidelity or will I be able to achieve the same things with BearingPoint.

Ginger

Bearing point have plenty of system analysts.. You should be able to transfer internally..

I dont see why you are so hung on being spoon fed all this?

cronos

Ginger wrote: »

Bearing point have plenty of system analysts.. You should be able to transfer internally..

I dont see why you are so hung on being spoon fed all this?

I am fully aware they have lots of systems analyst jobs. But I am looking for the quickest progression path up the ranks and what courses/graduate programs will assist with that. Is their not a specialist systems analyst certification that would assist with this, that is well respected within the industry.

You may keep the spoon fed comments to your self, thanks.

Ginger

You have a decent job with BearingPoint which will open doors further on.

You are looking at 5 to 6 years in getting to Systems Analyst level. Reading above I suggested PMP or Prince2 as possible ways to speed this path. These are 2 project management courses.

After that, maybe spend a couple of thousand doing an MBA or MBS.. probably shorten your time.. But i know a lot of business that require the experience as well as the training.

But hey what do I know!

cronos

Ginger wrote: »

You have a decent job with BearingPoint which will open doors further on.

You are looking at 5 to 6 years in getting to Systems Analyst level. Reading above I suggested PMP or Prince2 as possible ways to speed this path. These are 2 project management courses.

After that, maybe spend a couple of thousand doing an MBA or MBS.. probably shorten your time.. But i know a lot of business that require the experience as well as the training.

But hey what do I know!

cool thanks for your help

Ginger

I think you need to look at what you have, not what you are missing...

cronos

Ginger wrote: »

I think you need to look at what you have, not what you are missing...

Basically I dont really want to write code on a day to day even just after graduation... but I like the mixture of requirements and testing along with understanding the business side of things you get with a systems analyst role. I want to do sys analyst type of certs over the summer so that when I start I will have a good knowledge of sys analyst stuff and it will set me apart from anyone else with a computer systems degree looking to go in to a similar role. I dont think I can do the certs you recomended yet as you need a numer of project hours worked which I dont have. I would do a masters if I thought it would actually speed up the process. But would a year in industry not be a quicker way to go to systems analyst?

Ginger

Have a look at the Associate Computer Professional

The ACP is awarded to new entrants into the IT field and requires you complete the CORE plus one other Examination at the 50% or higher score. The ACP holder is automatically enrolled into the Recertification program.

2 years vs a masters.. I would hire the 2 years experience... personally as I know they have business experience rather than academic. But that is a personal choice...

Years in industry is nearly always more valuable that acadmic but it depends on the job.

Ginger

Also look at ITIL

Ginger

I can recommend 1 MCP which is the 70-300 Exam. Its Analyzing Requirements and Defining Microsoft .NET Solution Architectures

Candidates for this exam should have a minimum of two years of experience in the following areas:

Analyzing customer needs and creating documents that specify requirements for software solutions in multiple business domains.

Modeling processes, modeling data, designing components, and designing user interfaces.

Designing, developing, and implementing software solutions.

Integrating new applications into legacy environments.

Developing Microsoft Windows-based applications and Web applications by using Microsoft tools and technologies.

Which college are you attending?

cronos

Ginger wrote: »

I can recommend 1 MCP which is the 70-300 Exam. Its Analyzing Requirements and Defining Microsoft .NET Solution Architectures



Which college are you attending?

University of Limerick, thanks for the above posts... they look exactly like what im looking for.

Ginger

So I am guessing you are doing Comp Sys then.

I would try the ACP then, because I am fairly sure that the MCP is beyond you as you may not have the requisite .NET experience. I dont know if they are teaching .NET development in UL these days, but they werent in mine

BostonB

cronos wrote: »

Basically I dont really want to write code on a day to day even just after graduation... but I like the mixture of requirements and testing along with understanding the business side of things you get with a systems analyst role. I want to do sys analyst type of certs over the summer so that when I start I will have a good knowledge of sys analyst stuff and it will set me apart from anyone else with a computer systems degree looking to go in to a similar role. I dont think I can do the certs you recomended yet as you need a numer of project hours worked which I dont have. I would do a masters if I thought it would actually speed up the process. But would a year in industry not be a quicker way to go to systems analyst?

IMO theres no way you can be a Systems Analyst with out having a few years coding under your belt. You simply won't know what you are talking about.

Systems Analyst without development skills and experience is really a Business Analyst.

cronos

BostonB wrote: »

IMO theres no way you can be a Systems Analyst with out having a few years coding under your belt. You simply won't know what you are talking about.

Systems Analyst without development skills and experience is really a Business Analyst.

OK mabey I am getting the titles mixed up here but I thought a business analyst and a systems analyst were very similar. I thought a software architect was the only role where having years of experience in development was a must. In testing I will be envolved in creating automated testing frameworks and test scripts would this qualify as development experience.

Here is a link to what I have seen on wikipedia. Point 3 suggests that a systems analyst is just the IT form for a business analyst. But then again wikipedia isnt the best resource for things like this. That is why I am here on boards.ie

Roles of Business Analysts
As the scope of business analysis is very wide, there has been a tendency for business analysts to specialize in one of the three sets of activities which constitute the scope of business analysis.

1. Strategist
Organizations need to focus on strategic matters on a more or less continuous basis in the modern business world. Business analysts, serving this need, are well-versed in analyzing the strategic profile of the organization and its environment, advising senior management on suitable policies, and the effects of policy decisions.

2. Architect
Organizations may need to introduce change to solve business problems which may have been identified by the strategic analysis, referred to above. Business analysts contribute by analyzing objectives, processes and resources, and suggesting ways by which re-design (BPR), or improvements (BPI) could be made. Particular skills of this type of analyst are "soft skills", such as knowledge of the business, requirements engineering, stakeholder analysis, and some "hard skills", such as business process modeling. Although the role requires an awareness of technology and its uses, it is not an IT-focused role.

Three elements are essential to this aspect of the business analysis effort: the redesign of core business processes; the application of enabling technologies to support the new core processes; and the management of organizational change. This aspect of business analysis is also called "business process improvement" (BPI), or "reengineering".

3. Systems analyst
There is the need to align IT Development with the systems actually running in production for the Business. A long-standing problem in business is how to get the best return from IT investments, which are generally very expensive and of critical, often strategic, importance. IT departments, aware of the problem, often create a business analyst role to better understand, and define the requirements for their IT systems. Although there may be some overlap with the developer and testing roles, the focus is always on the IT part of the change process, and generally, this type of business analyst gets involved, only when a case for change has already been made and decided upon.

In any case, the term "analyst" is lately considered somewhat misleading, insofar as analysts (i.e. problem investigators) also do design work (solution definers).

cronos

BostonB wrote: »

IMO theres no way you can be a Systems Analyst with out having a few years coding under your belt. You simply won't know what you are talking about.

Systems Analyst without development skills and experience is really a Business Analyst.

I do think I have development skills from the course of my degree but you are def correct that I dont have field experience with it yet. If I have to do development for a while then I will but I want to explore my options first.

BostonB

Let me rephrase what I said. Yes you can be a IT System Analyst or IT Business Analyst without commerical development/coding experience of 2+ years. But in my experience those that don't have that, aren't very good. Ditto IT Development Project Managers, or similar roles in Development. I think in the long run you'll be very limited in the roles that you can do, or how you can progress in the role.

I'll conceed that there are a few very good managers/analyst's who seem to be able quickly pick up what they need to know from unfamilar industry or technology and be very effective.

Ginger

Consider your dev skills redundant as college projects aint sufficient to constitute development experience...

I would define your System Analyst as kind of an IT Architect (Maybe!!)

cronos

BostonB wrote: »

Let me rephrase what I said. Yes you can be a IT System Analyst or IT Business Analyst without commerical development/coding experience of 2+ years. But in my experience those that don't have that, aren't very good. Ditto IT Development Project Managers, or similar roles in Development. I think in the long run you'll be very limited in the roles that you can do, or how you can progress in the role.

I'll conceed that there are a few very good managers/analyst's who seem to be able quickly pick up what they need to know from unfamilar industry or technology and be very effective.

Yes I have heard that 2 years figure a lot in connection with the amount of dev experience companies want. Mabey I will just have to go into development so. I assume if I do a year as a tester then I will need to still do a couple of years as a developer. Or is tester time as valuable as development time in this case.

Is it just me or are job titles in the IT industry nearly meaningless :P

DublinWriter

First of all, the modern nomenclature is 'Business Analyst' or BA for short (I ain't getting on no airplane foooool!).

I know plenty of BA's who work for the Big 4 who couldn't write a line of English, never mind Java, C# or what-ever-you're-having-yourself.

Try and get into the graduate-programme of a financial institution or consulting house. Most graduate testers I know end up becoming technical-writers. It's a tricky and difficult position to pluck yourself out of.

Getting ITIL and/or Prince2 certification will be more valuable to you (and considerably less hassle) than doing an I.T.-based MSc.

cronos

Ginger wrote: »

Consider your dev skills redundant as college projects aint sufficient to constitute development experience...

I would define your System Analyst as kind of an IT Architect (Maybe!!)

So should I be looking to do certs then or getting in to a company that does development training. Or should I just move in to a development role. You see the company that I am going to be working for said they will decide if I will be a tester or a developer when I start the job. My current title is Technology Analyst but I have no specific job description. I am just trying to make the right choice given that I believe I want to be a good systems analyst asap.

BostonB

Spend as little time as possible testing. You do it anyway as part of development or as means to get into an IT company. But its dead time and doesn't realy count for experience other than for another testing job. IMO.

Job titles are miss used. But better to have the skills and experience to back up the title than be bluffing and get caught out in interview or worse on the job. IMO.

Ginger

Job titles are all varied! I am Senior Solutions Developer. Then again there are only 4 of us on a team of 18.. We also do development as well as management..

BostonB

Get some certs as a baseline and go contracting. Fastest way to get varied real life experience.

cronos

BostonB wrote: »

Spend as little time as possible testing. You do it anyway as part of development or as means to get into an IT company. But its dead time and doesn't realy count for experience other than for another testing job. IMO.

Job titles are miss used. But better to have the skills and experience to back up the title than be bluffing and get caught out in interview or worse on the job. IMO.

I dont think I am trying to bluff my way in I am just wondering if the only approach is through development. But you could be right. So testing is only good if I want to become a tester otherwise its not usefull. In otherwords the only job promotion for a tester would be QA manager.

cronos

BostonB wrote: »

Get some certs as a baseline and go contracting. Fastest way to get varied real life experience.

I have a job in a consultancy and start it after graduation, so I am going to do that for a while to get experience as I agree multiple projects is the quickest way to go. It would be very difficult at my age and experience level to get contract work for anything but testing. I assume you mean contract development work. What certs do you recomend that have proved usefull for you in getting jobs. What types of jobs were they.

CorkFenian

cronos wrote: »

Well really what I am looking for is ideas on how to start off as a JSA as I have nearly a couple of years experience coming out of college. Spent 8 months working on networks and desktop support then a year doing second level tech support and testing for a financial services company. I would like a job that trained me to become a successful JSA as I am sure I still have things to learn.

You got 20 months experience while in college and part of that was a year working on 2nd level support and testing, all that while in college, or have I not read it correctly...

cronos

CorkFenian wrote: »

You got 20 months experience while in college and part of that was a year working on 2nd level support and testing, all that while in college, or have I not read it correctly...

No your not reading it wrong. Their is 8 months as standard for every student in UL. Then I failed a module and had to repeat just that module the next year so I only had a few hours a week from september to december then I had January to September free. So I asked the careers office to sort out a job if they could through the coop program again for another 8 months. I got the second level tech support job and did that for that 8 months. Then I went back to college to do 3rd year. That summer I went back to work with the same company doing 2nd level tech support in london. It was for credit card terminals not windows or windows apps.

BostonB

cronos wrote: »

I have a job in a consultancy and start it after graduation, so I am going to do that for a while to get experience as I agree multiple projects is the quickest way to go. It would be very difficult at my age and experience level to get contract work for anything but testing. I assume you mean contract development work. What certs do you recomend that have proved usefull for you in getting jobs. What types of jobs were they.

These days technical tests are usual as part of the interview process for technical roles, especially contracts. In my experience these are often based on certification exams/material. So if you can't get past these tests you won't make it to 2nd interviews.

cronos

When did I say I couldnt pass any certificate? I did do a technical interview as part of getting my job for the consultancy. I answered every question corectly. Its a graduate program. Do you mean every individual project I do within the company will require me to do more technical interviews, basically re-interview for every project. That sounds time consuming. I am a full time employee with the company subject to an initial 6 month probation period.

BostonB

Where did I say you couldn't pass a certificate or anything about doing interviews for each project?

I'm talking generally about IT. Not about you specifically. No idea about how your company works. How could I?

cronos

BostonB wrote: »

Where did I say you couldn't pass a certificate or anything about doing interviews for each project?

I'm talking generally about IT. Not about you specifically. No idea about how your company works. How could I?

O I see cool sorry thought you were talking about me specifically. I agree that a person train's EG does certs/degrees to help get through interviews and get jobs if that was your original point. But the question is what certs must be done to go in the systems analyst route Ginger has already provided some great help on this so I will have to give them a look in the summer.

BostonB

cronos wrote: »

I....What certs do you recomend that have proved usefull for you in getting jobs. What types of jobs were they.

I thought that was your question.

egan007

In my humblest of opionions Proper Systems Analysts are born that way.
I've worked with a few and some have a natural capability to understand systems - systems in general that is. There is a marked difference in those with this ability and those who learn the technique.

Not much help to the OP but just thought i'd thrown my 2cent in the cup.

cronos

egan007 wrote: »

In my humblest of opionions Proper Systems Analysts are born that way.
I've worked with a few and some have a natural capability to understand systems - systems in general that is. There is a marked difference in those with this ability and those who learn the technique.

Not much help to the OP but just thought i'd thrown my 2cent in the cup.

Big problem with your logic their is that you need to be able to understand architectural specifications. I dont think you just know languages such as UML and other languages. Of course your correct though that some people are better than others at this, but if you cant prove your good at it then you wont get a job. Thats why you need qualifications. These qualifications then allow you to get experience. At least thats my view.

cronos

BostonB wrote: »

I thought that was your question.

Not exactly I wasnt asking why are certs usefull, I was wondering what certs were usefull to get ahead as a systems analyst. And which can I get given my level of experience.

Nutty

cronos is it comp sys or comp eng you are in as i am a ITT student in ul myslef

at the moment tryin to decide what im going to do next year.. going for interview in Bearing Point next week.. so really must read into the position as i only heard about the interview today and sent them a cv after the careers fair in like december probably .. i decided that regardless ill go to the interview for interview practise more than anything

otherwise i know i can quiet easily get a job back in the company where i was on co-op(work experience) where i was a junior ops eng/it person .. depending on who was asking.. where if i was to go back i probably would be in general IT for a while but develop into operations engineer over about a year and then work my way from that.. the company in question in this case is a mobile software development company who are undergoing huge growth.. they doubled in size while i was working with them from 40 to 100 and have about 140 people working with them now.. within a year nearly quadrupling