Pros and Cons?? 220 SWIFT!

ivanthehunter

Need some info from the men behind the Boards..

I am considering a 220swift purchase and i'd like to know a bit more about this type of gun in general, or similar guns.
I'll start by asking about bullet grain size and barrel rates of twist for the 220swift?
So what i need to know is:-
What is the largest and the smallest ammo you can get for this gun?
What sort of barrel twist rates is it available in, in Ireland?
How is the Grain size effected by rate of spin?

Umiq88

Pro's easy to license

Con's ammo costs a fortune 38+ euro for 20 rounds so going to be sore on the pocket for any sort of target shooting.

Smallest bullet weight available i reckon would be around 40-45ish grains up to 65 not sure if factory heavier rounds are available.

cavan shooter

Fine round if the price wasn't of the wall. Accurate by all accounts and high velocity look at www.ammoguide.com for comparison

foxshooter243

ivanthehunter wrote: »

Need some info from the men behind the Boards..

I am considering a 220swift purchase and i'd like to know a bit more about this type of gun in general, or similar guns.
I'll start by asking about bullet grain size and barrel rates of twist for the 220swift?
So what i need to know is:-
What is the largest and the smallest ammo you can get for this gun?
What sort of barrel twist rates is it available in, in Ireland?
How is the Grain size effected by rate of spin?

In 1935 winchester introduced the 220 swift in their model 54 bolt action.
the swift is based on the semi rimmed 6mm lee navy case necked down to 22 caliber.In the U.S the swift has been used to hunt everything from
varmints to deer but is best suited to varmint shooting.
The majority of factory swifts come with a 1:14 or 1:16 twist which are suitable for bullets ranging from 40 grain to 55 grain, the 1:14 twist will not stabilise the hornady 60 grain v max although it must be remembered that its the bullet length not weight which is the determining factor.
The general rule of thumb with barrel twist is that you should use the slowest barrel twist you can get away with which will stabilise your preferred bullet which imho is either 50 0r 55 grain in the swift.
these two bullet weights are probably the most popular in ireland
anyway for which the swift is used ie foxing. So basically if you buy a swift with either if the 2 above twist rates you can use up to 55 grain bullets, but in the future if you decided to reload then you could not use
60 grain or above with those twist rates, you would need a rifle with a faster twist The ballistic twin of the swift is the 22-250 which has two distinct advantages over the swift that is that its deer legal and ammo is cheaper but the swift is easily licenced. One last thing is that dont let anyone tell you that a swift is a barrel burner its no different to a22-250
I used a swift for years that had seen at least 3000 rds through it and could still hold a one inch group.

ivanthehunter

foxshooter243 wrote: »

In 1935 winchester introduced the 220 swift in their model 54 bolt action.
the swift is based on the semi rimmed 6mm lee navy case necked down to 22 caliber.In the U.S the swift has been used to hunt everything from
varmints to deer but is best suited to varmint shooting.
The majority of factory swifts come with a 1:14 or 1:16 twist which are suitable for bullets ranging from 40 grain to 55 grain, the 1:14 twist will not stabilise the hornady 60 grain v max although it must be remembered that its the bullet length not weight which is the determining factor.
The general rule of thumb with barrel twist is that you should use the slowest barrel twist you can get away with which will stabilise your preferred bullet which imho is either 50 0r 55 grain in the swift.
these two bullet weights are probably the most popular in ireland
anyway for which the swift is used ie foxing. So basically if you buy a swift with either if the 2 above twist rates you can use up to 55 grain bullets, but in the future if you decided to reload then you could not use
60 grain or above with those twist rates, you would need a rifle with a faster twist The ballistic twin of the swift is the 22-250 which has two distinct advantages over the swift that is that its deer legal and ammo is cheaper but the swift is easily licenced. One last thing is that dont let anyone tell you that a swift is a barrel burner its no different to a22-250
I used a swift for years that had seen at least 3000 rds through it and could still hold a one inch group.

WOW now thats what i call an answer!!!! Thats great info.. so if i have picked you up correctly then a 50-55 gn round fired from a 1:14 ratio barrel gives a good grouping but this twist ratio would be unable to stables a 60-65 gn round and i,d need a tighter twist...ok so far!!! yes
But what happens if i have a twist rate suitable for 60-65gn round and i use a lighter round, say a 45-50gn.??? how does the faster twist effect ballistic trajectory? does it reduce muzzle velocity???

foxshooter243

ivanthehunter wrote: »

WOW now thats what i call an answer!!!! Thats great info.. so if i have picked you up correctly then a 50-55 gn round fired from a 1:14 ratio barrel gives a good grouping but this twist ratio would be unable to stables a 60-65 gn round and i,d need a tighter twist...ok so far!!! yes
But what happens if i have a twist rate suitable for 60-65gn round and i use a lighter round, say a 45-50gn.??? how does the faster twist effect ballistic trajectory? does it reduce muzzle velocity???

ok so far ivan, if you manage to get a swift with a fast enough twist for 65 grain bullets which would probably be 1;12, you could still use that for 50/55 grain bullets with negligible ill effect on trajectory or muzzle velocity,
but going too far down that road and having too high a twist rate can cause problems like excessive barrel wear and accuracy problems,with some bullet types being torn apart by centripetal force upon leaving the barrel. the excessive spin also magnifies any in consistencies in the bullets
that cause an unequal distribution of mass such as a void in the bullet.
lastly excessive spinning causes a reduction in the lateral energy of the bullet as the energy becomes rotational kinetic energy instead which
reduces the bullets destructive power. so in short its best to decide which type of bullet weight/length you intend to use and pick the twist to suit.

ivanthehunter

so are you saying this:-
pick a grain weight to suit the job in hand and then pick a twist to suit that gn and stick to it.
If i pick a say 65 grain and a 1 in 12 twist (or what ever the manufacturer recommends) and i never place 45 or 50 grain in the chamber will the gun (barrel) and the round preform well...in relation to barrel longevity and accuracy?
what i'm trying to ask is this does it make any difference to the life of a rifle whether you shoot with
a) a 45 grain round and a 1:16 spin or b) a 65 grain with a 1:12 spin, as long as you dont swap and chop things around..

Remmy

Ive never heard of a 1:16 twist for a swift.Most would be 1:14 or 1:12.If you want a swift get yourself either a ruger m77mk2 or a vssf.The ruger's are 1:14 so it'll throw 55 grainers super flat out to around 300 yards with still a bucketload of kinetic energy behind it.

+1 to believe the barrel burner myth!

ivanthehunter

So is the 1:12 a better twist for a heavy 60-65gn round..? And what happens to the 55 grain round after 300m, does it fail to continue to spin.. what sort of twists are commercially available for the 220swift?

Jonty

There are very few rifles chambered for this round now. I think Remington are the only ones left. Ruger don't offer the swift in its 77 mkII any more. Just something else to look out for.

foxshooter243

Remmy wrote: »

Ive never heard of a 1:16 twist for a swift.Most would be 1:14 or 1:12.If you want a swift get yourself either a ruger m77mk2 or a vssf.The ruger's are 1:14 so it'll throw 55 grainers super flat out to around 300 yards with still a bucketload of kinetic energy behind it.

+1 to believe the barrel burner myth!

Remmy , ruger made their model 77v with a 1:16 twist, but on the subject of the myth of the swift being a barrel burner the story is that when winchester introduced the swift it was pushing a 46 grain bullet at speeds over 4000 ft/sec.The swift then started to recieve bad press because the high operating pressure was rough on the cases and coupled with the powders then available they had problems with throat erosion.So the early swift had a short barrel life. Today modern propellant and cool burning powder technology coupled with heavier bullets fired in the 3600 to 3800 ft/sec range give case and barrel life comparable to any other high intensity 22 centrefire.

foxshooter243

ivanthehunter wrote: »

so are you saying this:-
pick a grain weight to suit the job in hand and then pick a twist to suit that gn and stick to it.
If i pick a say 65 grain and a 1 in 12 twist (or what ever the manufacturer recommends) and i never place 45 or 50 grain in the chamber will the gun (barrel) and the round preform well...in relation to barrel longevity and accuracy?
what i'm trying to ask is this does it make any difference to the life of a rifle whether you shoot with
a) a 45 grain round and a 1:16 spin or b) a 65 grain with a 1:12 spin, as long as you dont swap and chop things around..

to get the longest possible barrel life you would use the slowest twist that stabilises your preferred bullet weight/length.

ivanthehunter

In terms of this question of barrel being worn out.. Can you give an example of a twist rate for a say 150 grain .308 round.. i just want to know so i can make a comparision in my head as to the relation ship of grain to cal. diameter and bullet vel,
I think i have to buy a good book on the subject of barrels and bullet balistics.. Its not fair asking too many questions

Remmy

1;12 would in .308 would push 155's fairly well.

foxshooter243

Remmy wrote: »

1;12 would in .308 would push 155's fairly well.

+i on that

ivanthehunter

so does the extra circumference area that is derived .308 diameter bullet interact differently with the barrel.?
I'd think that more bullet mass is further out from the central axis of the bullet and this allows for more stabilization at slower rates of spin.. i say this cause i have it in my head that a spin of 1:12 is required for a 60-65gn/.22
Anyway whats the last thoughts on this. is the swift a good buy even though some companies have stopped manufacturing this rifle. And what twist rates are needed to fire 60-65gn rounds and are the easy to find them (60-65grain)

Jonty

Ivan, why all the interest in 22 swift? If its for foxes 60 gr rounds wouldn't be required, 40 - 50gr is all thats required. 60 and 65 is too big. I haven't seen factory founds with 65 grainweight. 55 is the heaviest i've seen.

Sandy22

ivanthehunter wrote: »

Anyway whats the last thoughts on this.

Buy a .243

ivanthehunter

if i told you i'd have to start a new thread on ???? ????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???????..???? i have seen 60 grain on the net and i going to plan a hunting trip to the us for a bit of bow hunting & rifle hunting and i wanted the most powerful swift that i can get my hands on as there easy to get license for..

foxshooter243

ivanthehunter wrote: »

if i told you i'd have to start a new thread on ???? ????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???????..???? i have seen 60 grain on the net and i going to plan a hunting trip to the us for a bit of bow hunting & rifle hunting and i wanted the most powerful swift that i can get my hands on as there easy to get license for..

I think i know what your talking about.. lots of american varmint hunters
buy customised swifts with 26 and 28 inch barrels with fast twists for long range varminting using bullet weights up to 70 grain, these rifles can really reach out ..your problem is getting the fast twist in ireland ,the ammo would probably need to be handloaded to suit your rifle which is not a thing you can do overnight as loads need to be worked up and tested,
this can take time as it demands testing different bullets and powders
and playing about with bullet seating depths etc.and you also need weather conditions which are suitable for load testing..so in short your answer may be a 243 which can handle lots of weights from 55 to 100 grain, the 58 grain v max in a 243 is flatter shooting than a swift over 400 yards due to the higher ballistic coefficient of the bullet and the 85 grain sierra is capable of good 600 yard accuracy in the 243 so ivan maybe a rethink is required..hope this helps

Hezz700

This whole debate is a little acedemic considering what loads are commercially available in Ireland.

Reminton 50gr SF
Winchester 40gr ballistic silvertip
Hornady 40gr V-Max
Federal 52gr HPBT

I've used Federals for years with great success with a Remmy 700.

ivanthehunter

Hezz700 wrote: »

This whole debate is a little acedemic considering what loads are commercially available in Ireland.

Reminton 50gr SF
Winchester 40gr ballistic silvertip
Hornady 40gr V-Max
Federal 52gr HPBT

I've used Federals for years with great success with a Remmy 700.

i think you'll find a little gun shop in the midlands that keep 55's;)
Is there any reason why a limit on the grain of the swift ammo might exist.. i ask this as you have made a reference to "whats available in Ireland" but if you phone around you'll find 55 available in Ireland, what would stop a dealer from selling 60 is it just that no one will buy them and the dealer will be lumbered with un-sell-able ammo

foxshooter243

Hezz700 wrote: »

This whole debate is a little acedemic considering what loads are commercially available in Ireland.

Reminton 50gr SF
Winchester 40gr ballistic silvertip
Hornady 40gr V-Max
Federal 52gr HPBT

I've used Federals for years with great success with a Remmy 700.

thats where reloading comes in..

TomBeckett

Hello All
I have had a Remmy 700 vssf in .220Swift for the past two years or so and i find it to be an awsome rifle very accurate could not fault it in any way:)
the only thing is the price of ammo!! but then again with a rifle that powerfull you are not going to be firing at crows I have often went out lamping or whatever and only fired 2 or 3 rounds..

ivanthehunter

TomBeckett wrote: »

Hello All
I have had a Remmy 700 vssf in .220Swift for the past two years or so and i find it to be an awsome rifle very accurate could not fault it in any way:)
the only thing is the price of ammo!! but then again with a rifle that powerfull you are not going to be firing at crows I have often went out lamping or whatever and only fired 2 or 3 rounds..

What sort of twist rate do you have and what grain do you find suits it the best....?

TomBeckett

ivanthehunter wrote: »

What sort of twist rate do you have and what grain do you find suits it the best....?

Hello Ivan
Twist Rate is 1-1/4 and i find Federal 52g BTHP to be the best....

ivanthehunter

i have just read that the swift is the most accurate of the high powered .22 and is probably the one of the most accurate high powered small caliber weapon available, any thoughts? How does the .223 compare?

ivanthehunter

TomBeckett wrote: »

Hello Ivan
Twist Rate is 1-1/4 and i find Federal 52g BTHP to be the best....

i might have read that some weapons are made with twists of 1:8 for 70 grain in the good old USA:eek: is that type of twist rate possible? and if so is it really required for a 70grain for a 220swift..?

ivanthehunter

I only need to know one more thing?? who makes the best swifts in the world? the best one that a normal man could afford!

It wasn't me!

Probably looking at a Remington 700 of some description there.

revan23

here's my Remmy 700 VS SF
again i can't fault it in any way, its incredibly accurate and powerful, i normally use remmington 50g PSP's or Winchester 40gr ballistic silvertips.
only drawbacks are the price of ammo and it's pretty heavy if you're luggin it long distances.
the difference between a .220 swift and a .223 (both PSP's) have a look at the link at the bottom - (pretty handy website by the way)
the .223 is second from the left, the .220 swift is on the far right -


http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/comparative_ballistics_results.aspx?data=R220S1*R223R1

ivanthehunter

Any one ever hear of Thompson rifles, apparently the knocked out a rifle which took 220 swift.. i see that Remington still have 1 in there 2008 cataloger.. I tried having a quick look for rugar but with no joy....
does anyone know if rugar still make a rifle chambered to the 220? I also was wondering what the prices of a remmy 220 would be like, I heard 1000-1400, that just seems like a massive difference between gun shops

Jonty

ivanthehunter wrote: »

Any one ever hear of Thompson rifles, apparently the knocked out a rifle which took 220 swift.. i see that Remington still have 1 in there 2008 cataloger.. I tried having a quick look for rugar but with no joy....
does anyone know if rugar still make a rifle chambered to the 220? I also was wondering what the prices of a remmy 220 would be like, I heard 1000-1400, that just seems like a massive difference between gun shops

1400 seems right for the VSSF, yeah thompson are a single shot rifle. Ruger no longer chamber in swift, but if you shop around you might pick up some old stock.

revan23

you would pretty much need to spend the same again on the scope and mounts... no point having a ferrari with hubcaps...

It wasn't me!

Always loved that rifle revan. What's the glass?

revan23

an atlas explorer, nothin too fancy but i got it for the illuminated reticle, its great for low light shooting

Hezz700

foxshooter243 wrote: »

thats where reloading comes in..

All fine and well providing it's legal and components can be sourced. anyway 52gr is more than enough to take care of the red lads humanely.:)

Hezz

Hezz700

Ivan,

You'll find plenty of secondhand swift chambered rifles lurking around the back room of most dealers shops. lots of people turned there backs on the round once .223 became available. with a be of ground work you should be able to source one for very reasonable money with a good unworn bore. lets face it, most folk including myself generally don't fire more than 3 or 4 rounds on any outing so barrell errosion is not an issue unless the previous owner was lax in cleaning duties.

you should not have any real need for 60 or 70gr pills in Ireland, we have neither (legal) quarry larger enough nor the need for such long range projectiles. IMHO

p.s i seen a Remy 700 VS 220 swift in Stakelum's in Urlingford. it might be worth your while checking it out:)

damo03

Well folks dont mean to hi-jack the thread.
Bought a Remmy 700 VSSF2 in .220 swift. Got the gun secndhand(about 50 rounds gone through it as far as I know). It is immaculate. It comes with a T8 fitted,harris bipod, picatinny rail, mounts ,sling and cheekpiece.Just have to buy the scope. And wait for license. Cost €1800. Was this good value?

ivanthehunter

Hezz700 wrote: »

Ivan,

You'll find plenty of secondhand swift chambered rifles lurking around the back room of most dealers shops. lots of people turned there backs on the round once .223 became available. with a be of ground work you should be able to source one for very reasonable money with a good unworn bore. lets face it, most folk including myself generally don't fire more than 3 or 4 rounds on any outing so barrell errosion is not an issue unless the previous owner was lax in cleaning duties.

you should not have any real need for 60 or 70gr pills in Ireland, we have neither (legal) quarry larger enough nor the need for such long range projectiles. IMHO

p.s i seen a Remy 700 VS 220 swift in Stakelum's in Urlingford. it might be worth your while checking it out:)

how would a novice know a barrel was not worn out with out shooting at a paper target???? I think new is a better option for a better gun but money is a real concern!!

foxshooter243

ivanthehunter wrote: »

how would a novice know a barrel was not worn out with out shooting at a paper target???? I think new is a better option for a better gun but money is a real concern!!

short of having a gunsmith examine the bore with a borescope its hard to tell the true condition of the bore but look for signs such as condition of the rifle ,wear on the butt pad etc, as was said the price of ammo has
largley stopped swifts getting much use down south-most swifts are in good nick-a trustworthy dealer is a help-cos he probably sold the ammo the rifle fired and has a good idea of the use it got-youll struggle to find a shot out swift anyway as factory ammo only runs in the 3600 to 3800
bracket same as 22-250.

ivanthehunter

Whats the going rate for a second hand swift, roughly??

foxshooter243

ivanthehunter wrote: »

Whats the going rate for a second hand swift, roughly??

seen a good ruger m77 swifter sold at 650 euro second hand.

revan23

damo03 wrote: »

Well folks dont mean to hi-jack the thread.
Bought a Remmy 700 VSSF2 in .220 swift. Got the gun secndhand(about 50 rounds gone through it as far as I know). It is immaculate. It comes with a T8 fitted,harris bipod, picatinny rail, mounts ,sling and cheekpiece.Just have to buy the scope. And wait for license. Cost €1800. Was this good value?

no idea on the T8 price, but the vssf2 is about 1450 new

damo03

I think the T8 costs about €350 fitted.The harris Approx €100.The rail and mounts around €200. And whatever for the sling and cheekpiece. So i suppose it works out ok. the gun looks like new and it was returned with rounds not used which were given by the dealer when it was new. It is immaculate so im happy enough.

foxshooter243

damo03 wrote: »

I think the T8 costs about €350 fitted.The harris Approx €100.The rail and mounts around €200. And whatever for the sling and cheekpiece. So i suppose it works out ok. the gun looks like new and it was returned with rounds not used which were given by the dealer when it was new. It is immaculate so im happy enough.

yeah price was ok and if your happy with it thats what counts-happy shootin:D

ivanthehunter

foxshooter243
Am i ever going to suffer a shortage of ammo in the shops for the swift.. or will it continue to remain a production model with short runs of manufactured ammo like i believe the hornet has become( could be mistaken here)
Its just that it seems that you wont be able to buy a swift in a few years be cause of expensive ammo costs have stunted rifle sales in this caliber!

What is the deal with getting into the re-loading of your own rounds,,
and one more question here can a rifle barrel ever be re-placed or re-conditioned to a new state: i would think its only possible to bore it out to a larger size but then the cartridge might not be compatible..

Anyway the re-loading has me intrigued, how? its the experimental process in determining the bet configuration.. deadly craic

foxshooter243

ivanthehunter wrote: »

foxshooter243
Am i ever going to suffer a shortage of ammo in the shops for the swift.. or will it continue to remain a production model with short runs of manufactured ammo like i believe the hornet has become( could be mistaken here)
Its just that it seems that you wont be able to buy a swift in a few years be cause of expensive ammo costs have stunted rifle sales in this caliber!

What is the deal with getting into the re-loading of your own rounds,,
and one more question here can a rifle barrel ever be re-placed or re-conditioned to a new state: i would think its only possible to bore it out to a larger size but then the cartridge might not be compatible..

Anyway the re-loading has me intrigued, how? its the experimental process in determining the bet configuration.. deadly craic

the swift still has a strong following in the US, the reason the swift hasnt
a great following at the minute is down to ammo cost ,but that will be wiped out in the future if the DOJ introduces reloading, cos then the swift will be quite reasonable to reload compared to factory ammo prices, youll
then i think see a lot of 223 guys moving to swift ,cos lets face it the 223 is no swift, ive used both and the swift is king of the 22 centrefires,.
The talk that the swift is a barrel burner is a misconception, this was because when the swift was introduced it was pushing a 46 grain bullet at over 4000 ft/sec this alongside really hot burning powders ,high operating pressure and less than desirable quality barrel steel led to problems with throat erosion.
The second world war seen huge advancements in steel and with todays cooler burning powders,better cleaning methods etc the swift lasts as long as any other comparable 22 centrefire, i used a swift for 8 yrs and it had seen countless rounds down the barrel and when i traded it the gundealer looked it over and checked the barrel and pronounced it healthy.
so ivan go get a swift and save your brass...

ivanthehunter

i think that you have sold me! where do i sign:D
I thought there was people here in eire who were already re-loading their own gear! was i mistaken ?

bunny shooter

foxshooter243 wrote: »

the swift still has a strong following in the US, the reason the swift hasnt
a great following at the minute is down to ammo cost ,but that will be wiped out in the future if the DOJ introduces reloading, cos then the swift will be quite reasonable to reload compared to factory ammo prices, youll
then i think see a lot of 223 guys moving to swift ,cos lets face it the 223 is no swift, ive used both and the swift is king of the 22 centrefires,.
The talk that the swift is a barrel burner is a misconception, this was because when the swift was introduced it was pushing a 46 grain bullet at over 4000 ft/sec this alongside really hot burning powders ,high operating pressure and less than desirable quality barrel steel led to problems with throat erosion.
The second world war seen huge advancements in steel and with todays cooler burning powders,better cleaning methods etc the swift lasts as long as any other comparable 22 centrefire, i used a swift for 8 yrs and it had seen countless rounds down the barrel and when i traded it the gundealer looked it over and checked the barrel and pronounced it healthy.
so ivan go get a swift and save your brass...

+1

ivanthehunter

i have spent a bit of time on the net looking for manufactures of the 220 swift.. Remington make the vss? II and this is produced in a 1:14 twist,

Thompson/center still offer a custom made 220 swift but without phoning them i cant determine their twist rates,, i know i said custom made, but they might have the barrels already made,,

it seems that rugar77 mkII is no longer made in 220swift?? i could be wrong
and savage 112 is no longer in production in the 220 swift,,
Is any body in the know as to who is still making these rifles in these calibers?