Is this forum getting too commercial?

ICN

I've been a visitor to this forum for a long time now.. but have only started posting quite recently.

I have always found it handy to get tips etc.. or just to get opinions (and hopefully solutions..) on issues that I'm experiencing.

However.. I've noticed that this forum seems to be getting slightly more commercialised as time goes on. Certain posters are coming from definite commercial backgrounds.. and openly say who they are and what they do.

Based on recent events in a recent thread.. its obvious that I am not alone in thinking this.

I think that certain posters are basically advertising their wares behind a cheeky grin - going "I'm not advertising - I simply come from a retail background, so I can understand where you might get that misconception from...However, I am not selling anything etc.. (wink wink)"

I'm unsure.

I appreciate that the Mod's would intervene if there was blatant out & out selling / advertising. There isn't - but I do think that there is still some "Leak" nonetheless.

I also appreciate that many of the posters here are actually asking for help or advice, and sometimes looking to buy, or rent some studio or do some course - whatever. So its not as if "We" don't want it.

I think that the average Guy, looking for a bit of help etc.. is non-business, and on these occasions that is the difference.

I think threads like "Free Stuff for all of you" etc.. (I'm afraid to say it but I will..) are nothing but Spam.

But where should the line be drawn? Can it, if the rules are not thoroughly enforced for everyone?

.. Or is this a mountain out of a molehill?

I hope this will not get nasty. However, I do think it should be discussed openly and fairly. I shall be very interested to hear everyone's opinion.

I think we're all a little guilty of encouraging it.. but should it continue?

TelePaul

ICN wrote: »

I've been a visitor to this forum for a long time now.. but have only started posting quite recently.

Hey ICN! Just so ya know, this is a pretty hot topic right now. If Cornbb gives the go ahead, I'd be more than happy to detail my views in a thorough post.

mike65

The Sonic Safari thread certainly has the feel of PR for Paul Bewer and his life and times.

Interestingly he pre-empted any criticism with the following

This might be of interest to some of you, if not ............ move along there.

Mike.

cornbb

Go right ahead, this should be out in the open.

Given the tone of the Feedback thread I think a pre-emptive warning to keep the thread clean, impersonal and civilised is fitting. Lets have a mature discussion about this.

TelePaul

cornbb wrote: »

Go right ahead, this should be out in the open.

Thanks, I'll contribute a little later on.

cornbb

Ok, here's my say on it.

The forum charter (which is decided upon by the mods, with input from users) forbids the use of the forum for commercial/advertising purposes. While this is a fairly clear-cut rule, unfortunately we seem to have stumbled into a situation where it appears it needs to be interpreted.

Firstly, while boards.ie has a zero tolerance policy on spam and shilling, there is some leeway allowed for posters with commercial interests who genuinely contribute to the forum and offer something to its users. This precedent has been set in many other forums.

The particular user in question in this case happens to offer an impressive range of experience, knowledge and industry connections. Although some of the events he refers to undoubtedly have a commercial flavour, it is my opinion that it would be more beneficial for our users to be aware of such events then to delete these posts. The boards.ie rules allow for this leeway and I have interpreted them in this way. I do not believe any of the charter rules have been breached.

The charter also indicates that we want this place to develop a community feeling, that we want it to grow, and that we want all users at all levels of experience to share their knowledge. Me, frobisher, and many other regulars on the forum actively work towards this, see the stickies at the top of the forum for evidence. Of late, we have had a crop of new users who bring a new level of experience and knowledge to the forum - PaulBrewer, studiorat and trackmixstudio spring to mind off the top of my head. Although they have all made users aware of their business connections, to my mind, their contributions have been highly beneficial to the forum, helping it grow and mature. As far as I know, this is one of the only music technology/music production forums that is purely Irish-oriented, therefore its only natural that we encourage collaboration, networking, raising awareness of events of genuine interest, etc.

I understand that some users have interpreted the scenario differently to me, that is fair enough and that is the purpose of this discussion. This forum is for the users, so if a new consensus from this thread is reached then the mods will find a way to change the charter and its enforcement accordingly. I'm sorry this whole thing has started to turn ugly but this is a chance for everyone to have their say.

studiorat

Firstly, I think the charter is slightly vague. Secondly maybe it needs another name change, namely home studio recording.

I'm an Engineer and a Producer (producing for other people btw), I do this for a living. The very nature of Pro Audio is commercially driven. You might have noticed, but very few people here actually discuss technique, it's all about the gear as far as I can see.
Either the Pro's can talk about their work if they want to or not, or we can all sit here and compare sh1te soundcards. I suppose if you are happy with home studio quality recordings, you can be happy with home studio quality discussions too. Personally I believe the quality of the demos floating around these days has taken a serious nose dive.

A sign of the times, the studio industry is being taken over by rich kids who's daddies fork out for
"studios" and €4,000 a year sound engineering courses.

mike65

Thats some of us put in our place then.

Mike.

cornbb

ICN wrote:

Certain posters are coming from definite commercial backgrounds.. and openly say who they are and what they do.

I'd just like to clarify that the practice of revealing commercial interests is encouraged on boards - it helps avoid conflict of interest and dispel any doubts that someone might be a shill.

studiorat

mike65 wrote: »

Thats some of us put in our place then.

Mike.

Well I look at some of the stuff people are buying and think WTF? Why? Because they believe the marketing hype?

And Frankly, a lot of the musicians and bands around Dublin anyway have quite serious money at their disposal. But as far as I can see would rather spend 2 years recording 12 songs "in a shoe box for a penny", than go and write 12 more, or heaven forbid play a gig! I nearly fell over when I heard one guy say to another recently "hows your album comin' on?" Like they were getting a bleedin' extension built...

cornbb

studiorat wrote: »

Well I look at some of the stuff people are buying and think WTF? Why? Because they believe the marketing hype?

And Frankly, a lot of the musicians and bands around Dublin anyway have quite serious money at their disposal. But as far as I can see would rather spend 2 years recording 12 songs "in a shoe box for a penny", than go and write 12 more, or heaven forbid play a gig! I nearly fell over when I heard one guy say to another recently "hows your album comin' on?" Like they were getting a bleedin' extension built...

studiorat, I think you are taking a pretty blinkered approach to this. While I'm sure you are a seasoned professional, you must appreciate the varied nature of the activities people in here get up to. Take a look at the recent poll: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055237545

Many of us here don't have an interest in large commercial recording operations and many of us don't even give a crap about recording at all, preferring to focus on things like electronic music, MIDI, coding or live engineering. Most users here make music at home in their spare time, as a hobby, and have neither the resources, the inclination or the need to use big studios or buy top-of-the-line equipment.

Your post comes off as elitist and it goes against the spirit of what we are trying to do here. You can choose not to participate in discussions that you think are amateur or whatever, but belittling what other people get up to is hardly fair.

ICN

cornbb wrote: »

I'd just like to clarify that the practice of revealing commercial interests is encouraged on boards - it helps avoid conflict of interest and dispel any doubts that someone might be a shill.

Yup - I know.

I hear what you say about this being the only Irish production Forum etc.. Cool. However I think the ground rules need to be more enforced.



But its vague to say the least. Its like the guy who killed you saying to the cops afterwards - "I told him I was a murderer."

If you are honest; does that then excuse you? so that you can advertise your business / shops / studios / courses etc.. ??

I find it quite annoying.

It feels sometimes that "certain" posters are Hi-jacking this forum. I wont name names & will keep it impersonal.

The signatures say it all Guys.

Sure - Give the advice.. but get rid of the free ads at the bottom of your posts if you are honestly doing it for the right reasons.

Thoughts?

TelePaul

mike65 wrote: »

Thats some of us put in our place then.

Mike.

Hey Mike, what's up? Come on, speak up dude, nobodys going to flame you because you disagree. I take it you don't like the way things are here?

Sherifu

TelePaul wrote: »

Hey Mike, what's up? Come on, speak up dude, nobodys going to flame you because you disagree. I take it you don't like the way things are here?

How did you come to that conclusion?

TelePaul

Sherifu wrote: »

How did you come to that conclusion?

I don't know what other conclusion could be reached....though he didn't quote anything in particular so I guess it's somewhat ambiguous. Frankly, I don't think it's a matetr of putting anyone in their place.

cornbb

TelePaul wrote: »

I don't know what other conclusion could be reached....though he didn't quote anything in particular so I guess it's somewhat ambiguous. Frankly, I don't think it's a matetr of putting anyone in their place.

I think his "putting us in our place" post was referring to studiorat's post, not mine.

TelePaul

cornbb wrote: »

I think his "putting us in our place" post was referring to studiorat's post, not mine.

Grand, but I still don't understand why it was said decisively. Maybe there's just something I'm not getting, been a long week.

cornbb

TelePaul wrote: »

Grand, but I still don't understand why it was said decisively. Maybe there's just something I'm not getting, been a long week.

I'm guessing it was something along the lines of what I said about studiorat's post. Maybe mike will wander along and clarify that for us.

mike65

StudioRats follow up I agree with in part - "All the Gear and clueless" approach, but as cornbb says this forum is for all sorts - newbie to veterans who tweak pots in thier sleep. I suppose you are never going to please all the poeple - those who feel the board has a bit too much of the amature ethos should go elsewhere or be understanding when someone can't figure how to record midi to audio.

Mike.

Sherifu

TelePaul wrote: »

I don't know what other conclusion could be reached....though he didn't quote anything in particular so I guess it's somewhat ambiguous. Frankly, I don't think it's a matetr of putting anyone in their place.

I read it like this too:

cornbb wrote: »

I think his "putting us in our place" post was referring to studiorat's post, not mine.

frobisher

I think it'd be good if the general mood around this whole topic (I'm refering to several threads, not just this one) was brought down a few clicks on the richter scale. No one has lost a limb. Let's all have a decent discussion about it. I personally suggest that being done without 1 single incident of mud slinging. It serves no benifit at all. People are people, opinions are opinions. They are not the same thing. Lets talk about the board and what's happening on it, not about what we think of what someone who doesn't agree with us said once in a pm or thread etc etc. What I'd like to hear is what people think about this whole topic, not just their opinion on what others think of it. Basically let's follow one of the golden guide lines of internet posting; let's stay on topic.

I don't think the board has become too commercial but I do think that as of late there has been more movement in that direction than ever before. It'll pass though. There is no way in a bazillion years the board is going to become a commercial forum, even if the Mods were accepting back handers (there goes my pro-audio dealer funded holiday to the Seychelles!). The C-mods or admins would step in. So let's not really worry about us comepletely losing the place. It won't happen.

Boards is always in a state of flux in my opinion. Here in music production alone we've had 3 name changes, various fads, ideas and projects and people that come and go. It's all peaks and troughs. This is one of them. Now we have this thread we can discuss it amongst oursleves and reach a consensus that fits within the rules and guidelines of boards.ie.

As far as I'm concerned there is a place for people who want to register their commercial service on the board. In fact, we created a thread specially for it, Pimp Your Service. And I believe posters should take advantage of it. But the tricky issue is when you have a topic like music production where people are absolutely ravenous for whatever next piece of gear or studio or engineer will make them sound amazing and the people with the most active knowledge who can advice are often those with a commercial biased perspective. It's inherently tricky. I think the answer is to use common sense and to not beleive everything you read especially if someone has declared a commercial interest in the Pimp My Service thread.

Boards isn't a public service, it's a privately owned entitity and works with certain amount of flexibilty. But the way I look at it is that when someone breaks the rules we ban them if needed. We don't make an allowance because they are more popular/clever/connected/whatever. In a nutshell if people promote themselves too much they'll be banned. It's up to them if they want to do it. I get the feeling that the people who beleive MP is becoming too commercial think myself and cornbb are willing to let people advertise what they want. WTF?! No way Jose. That said, do I think that some of the new people round here would like to use this place as a marketing tool? Unfortunatly yes I do. But I think that as of yet it's been borderline and hasn't been clear enough for a mod to confidently ban someone without any doubt. But then give people time to get used to a place and they often change their modus operandi. Because it's been borderline I presonally believe posters deserve a chance. Others might dis-agree but there's no one right way to mod just different people doing their best.

So with all the above in mind I am not going to vote no.

jtsuited

well looks like i don't feel so lonely anymore, cornbb.

jtsuited

frobisher wrote: »

That said, do I think that some of the new people round here would like to use this place as a marketing tool? Unfortunatly yes I do.

good lord, all i do is point this out (albeit in a slightly more animated way) and all hell breaks loose. Yet one moderator agrees with me.

Makes you wonder.

dav nagle

Hello all,

May I clarify a few questions with the moderators please if possible?

1. Is it perfectly fine to advertise at the end of every thread I post or does that depend on how much I contribute to the Boards community? The type of things I would advertise are my studio and my new album?



Thankyou

frobisher

dav nagle wrote: »

Hello all,

May I clarify a few questions with the moderators please if possible?

1. Is it perfectly fine to advertise at the end of every thread I post or does that depend on how much I contribute to the Boards community? The type of things I would advertise are my studio and my new album?
Thankyou

Presumably you're talking about signatures, right? If so a link to something you run on-line that isn't breaking other sig rules is allowed. So in short, when done correctly, yes, it is perfectly fine.

dav nagle

frobisher wrote: »

Presumably you're talking about signatures, right? If so a link to something you run on-line that isn't breaking other sig rules is allowed. So in short, when done correctly, yes, it is perfectly fine.

Hello Frobisher,



Yes indeed I am talking about signatures nothing else. Thankyou for the information regarding signatures, sound man.

BME

So today this topic is permitted, but yesterday it wasn't. Hmmmm.

dav nagle

BME wrote: »

So today this topic is permitted, but yesterday it wasn't. Hmmmm.

Why was it not permitted please?

jtsuited

BME wrote: »

So today this topic is permitted, but yesterday it wasn't. Hmmmm.

yes it is a bit strange. saying that this is a specific thread so it's fair enough if the mods feel that the real danger was a thread being hijacked yesterday.

dav nagle

jtsuited wrote: »

yes it is a bit strange. saying that this is a specific thread so it's fair enough if the mods feel that the real danger was a thread being hijacked yesterday.

How does a thread get hijacked? I am confused??

Sherifu

dav nagle wrote: »

How does a thread get hijacked? I am confused??

When someone tries to change the original topic into something else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thread_hijacking

cornbb

Yesterday, I took action to put a halt to a thread that was descending into mudslinging. This thread is an attempt to allow mature discussion on the matter. jtsuited, here is the soapbox you desire. Say what you have to say in a civilised, impersonal matter if you want this thread to go anywhere.

white_falcon

Hi guys,
I've been here a few times lately since a few months ago, and have been looking at threads and discussing stuff with people about advice on how to record, what hardware to use, etc.

My first opinion of this forum was that it was for amateur home recording all the way up to professional studio recording. However, lately I do feel that there has been a lot of "professional" engineers or people that own studios etc. that have been advertising their service slyly. I don't mean that to sound offensive at all. I just think that some people have replied to posts in a joking manner saying things like "well sure i have a place in dublin and do that for customers if you need to drop by lol" - now not those exact words, but things along that line.

Theres also sometimes things such as "We're having a X product day on X day to show of some of our new range of X, and there will be free tea and coffee and a discount for boardsters" etc. Thats nice and all, but its more on the commercial line, rather than what I was expecting from the forum

Also some of the threads like "some free things for you" that sign you up for music magazines that I just personally feel, are aimed at a commercial audience. I have no problem with that, but I didnt really think that was what this forum was about.

One other small thing. I have had great feedback from lots of people on here and advice etc. However, I have got the feeling now and again that some of the "professional sound/audio engineers" do almost look down upon you when asking a very simple question. I feel like asking a really simple question about something as simple as why am i getting background noise when recording X, or something even simpler, does get looked down upon almost by some posters

Just my opinion anyhoo

jtsuited

as far as i can see the only professional engineers here are studiorat and trackmixstudio.
I don't think they've been too guilty of any wrongdoing, bar the odd plug maybe (but that's only natural).
Strictly speaking I probably am, as I make money out of my own productions, remixes, and do an odd bit of mastering for a few dance labels.
I have done many engineering/production/session musician jobs and I have given many lectures on a City & Guilds Music Technology course.
But i'm not in the realm of engineer for hire with regular clients so I'm not going to pretend to be.
but it's probably relevant as well that both my grandfather and father are/were professional engineers (to the extent that my grandfather knew Rupert Neve personally), and i've spent my whole life around this kind of thing.

Yet I don't feel the need to go on about how 'pro' my experience is, and recommend things from a 'pro' perspective. Or namedrop (yes i know i just namedropped above).

My point is, there is a difference between people who are here who are professionals and those that are here solely in a professional context.

frobisher

Niall - Dahlia wrote: »

I voted no. It was't so long ago that we were inundated with a tide of "how do i record stuff on my pc?" threads, and people felt this place catered only for the amateur home studio. Then when some engineers come along who do this for a career, people complain.

The only thing that annoys me sometimes is when somebody's friend in the business recommends their service, basically you scratch my back I'll scratch yours. I think if you want to recommend your studio in a thread, you do it yourself, not have your mate on this forum do if for you. I rarely mention SALT on any threads because to honest by the time I see a thread of a band looking for a studio there's already a load of replies from people who rarely contribute here or somebody recommending their friends place.

This place has got pretty ugly and personal lately though.

Great post and very well put.

I also agree that it's gotten too ugly and personal round here lately. It's as bad as I've ever seen it be in a few years hanging round round these parts.

jtsuited

Niall - Dahlia wrote: »

The only thing that annoys me sometimes is when somebody's friend in the business recommends their service, basically you scratch my back I'll scratch yours. I think if you want to recommend your studio in a thread, you do it yourself, not have your mate on this forum do if for you.

This particular thing has been rampant lately.

jtsuited

So we have one mod saying "it's borderline", and many others chiming in to talk about how the tone around here has seriously changed (ie "it has got more commercial, but maybe not too commercial").
yet we've had ban warnings, deleted posts and bans handed out for discussing it.

btw, while i know the mods' stance has been changed, surely there's no need for savman's ban now that we're allowed to discuss it. or is it 'he must be punished because he disobeyed the rules'? Even though the rules have clearly changed now.

PaulBrewer

And there I was thinking that all this was let out on the Feedback thread!

Here are few things -

1 . You become a music professional because people pay you because they think you're good. Therefore if you're any good....... you may become a Pro. (this is in no way dissing the Home Guy)

2. If you do something for a long time professionally one learns things through experience. I didn't know I knew so much til I started getting asked questions when I worked in Music Maker. I don't claim to know all but am prepared to share.

3. What Pros know applies directly to the home situation, I just posted to another thread with a little bit of info I hope will be of use to jimi_t . There's that statement in action.
It isn't , in my view, Home Recording and Pro Recording but Good Recording and Bad Recording.

4. I think that the quality of recording in Ireland is overall, abysmal. However I'd rather argue for Posh stuff rather than sell the 'dream' you can make great band recording on a 8-Track Multi tracker, unless your idea of 'great' is different to mine, which may be part of the problem as I see it.

5. Unbeknownst to myself I seem to have touched some nerves along the way which wasn't my intention - However I'll defend every post's content - you are, of course, welcome to disagree. However spare me the ranting.

6. I'm very disappointed at the low tone some of the discussions have taken. That's of no use to anybody - That kind of Negativity is bad for Music and Bad for the Music Business. I don't mind being taken to task as I know I can be a mouthy fecker but I feel that kind of thing ought not be tolerated.

7. I still work Semi - Professionally most weekends in the studio because I love the shizit! I also love bangin' on about it. If you don't like what I say don't read my posts.... or better still instead of giving out, Post something of more interest.

8. Some of you have been here a long time - unlike myself. I guess what's really happening is you need to decide do you want Professionals such as myself and StudioRat etc. who have stated Commercial interests posting - or do you not?

If you do, then you'll have to filter all we say with that in mind... you ain't stupid now are ya?

If not, then perhaps that should be in the rules, and we'll head off?

Remember it was me who suggested a (sub) forum for Pros at the name change. The valid point was made that there wasn't really enough of us. Perhaps the opposite might be an idea - a 'Newbie' Sub Forum where posters don't feel threatened by guys who know Pin 3 is hot.


And for fear things will get too quiet around here, just for my 'fans' is a picture of me and Rupert Neve in London on the pish....















P.S. Yea I know Pin 2 is hot, you fell for it!

dav nagle

PaulBrewer wrote: »

And there I was thinking that all this was let out on the Feedback thread!

Here are few things -

1 . You become a music professional because people pay you because they think you're good. Therefore if you're any good....... you may become a Pro. (this is in no way dissing the Home Guy)

I agree

2. If you do something for a long time professionally one learns things through experience. I didn't know I knew so much til I started getting asked questions when I worked in Music Maker. I don't claim to know all but am prepared to share.

cool,you are good for the info!

3. What Pros know applies directly to the home situation, I just posted to another thread with a little bit of info I hope will be of use to jimi_t . There's that statement in action.
It isn't , in my view, Home Recording and Pro Recording but Good Recording and Bad Recording.

Defo with you on that one

4. I think that the quality of recording in Ireland is overall, abysmal. However I'd rather argue for Posh stuff rather than sell the 'dream' you can make great band recording on a 8-Track Multi tracker, unless your idea of 'great' is different to mine, which may be part of the problem as I see it.

Poor old Irish engineers getting a bashing!

5. Unbeknownst to myself I seem to have touched some nerves along the way which wasn't my intention - However I'll defend every posts content - you are, of course, welcome to disagree. However spare me the ranting.

Cool

6. I'm very disappointed at the low tone some of the discussions have taken. That's of no use to anybody - That kind of Negativity is bad for Music and Bad for the Music Business. I don't mind being taken to task as I know I can be a mouthy fecker but I feel that kind of thing ought not be tolerated.

Does certainly be touchy around here!

7. I still work Semi - Professionally most weekends in the studio because I love the shizit! I also love bangin' on about it. If you don't like what I say don't read my posts.... or better still instead of giving out, Post something of more interest.

8. Some of you have been here a long time - unlike myself. I guess what's really happening is you need to decide do you want Professionals such as myself and StudioRat etc. who have stated Commercial interests posting - or do you not?

???

If you do, then you'll have to filter all we say with that in mind... you ain't stupid now are ya?

No IQ of 16

If not, then perhaps that should be in the rules, and we'll head off?

Dont head off!

(Remember it was me who suggested a (sub) forum for Pros at the name change. The valid point was made that there wasn't really enough of us.)

Fair enough

And for fear things will get too quiet around here, just for my 'fans' is a picture of me and Rupert Neve in London on the pish....

Cool,very small pic

jtsuited

paul brewer. Did you become a professional engineer/producer at any point in your life?

If so, how did you then end up in MusicMaker?

You are arguing for the Posh Stuff (fair enough), yet you have a clear vested interest in doing so. This kind of thing is sort of frowned upon, because you may not be giving accurate advice.

For instance, I noticed a while ago (can find the post if you want), you said something to the effect of you are not gonna get as good a sound from cheap plugins as you are from a 3 grand box of circuits and valves. Well do you as a dealer make more money from those big expensive boxes or from plugins that most people don't go to a dealership to buy?

This particular statement is wildly inaccurate, and when your only basis for saying it is 'i work in the pro-audio industry', I get understandably annoyed.


Granted some of your knowledge will be extremely helpful to many people, but much of your namedropping and general pushing of the posh stuff (your words, not mine) is simply not helpful in any way to the posters here. well not as far as i can see anyway.

many people coming here will generally not have much knowledge/experience in the area, so when you start recommending Apogee Duets to people whose budget is 20% of the cost of one, you are misleading people under your 'pro-this, pro-that' vibe.

add to that your sig, your Sonic Safari post, and numerous other times when you attempt to display some sort of profile in the recording industry, and you are easily going to lead many people down a route that while being beneficial to you, may not be in their best interest.

PaulBrewer

jtsuited wrote: »

paul brewer. Did you become a professional engineer/producer at any point in your life?

If so, how did you then end up in MusicMaker?

You are arguing for the Posh Stuff (fair enough), yet you have a clear vested interest in doing so. This kind of thing is sort of frowned upon, because you may not be giving accurate advice.

For instance, I noticed a while ago (can find the post if you want), you said something to the effect of you are not gonna get as good a sound from cheap plugins as you are from a 3 grand box of circuits and valves. Well do you as a dealer make more money from those big expensive boxes or from plugins that most people don't go to a dealership to buy?

This particular statement is wildly inaccurate, and when your only basis for saying it is 'i work in the pro-audio industry', I get understandably annoyed.


Granted some of your knowledge will be extremely helpful to many people, but much of your namedropping and general pushing of the posh stuff (your words, not mine) is simply not helpful in any way to the posters here. well not as far as i can see anyway.

many people coming here will generally not have much knowledge/experience in the area, so when you start recommending Apogee Duets to people whose budget is 20% of the cost of one, you are misleading people under your 'pro-this, pro-that' vibe.

"Did you become a professional engineer/producer at any point in your life?"

Yes , I've worked in studios here and the UK since I was 18. About 26 years now (last 5 mostly as a dealer).
I've worked in Westland and Windmill and Townhouse and Rockfield in the UK to name a few. I've also produced engineered played or programmed on Irish Multi Platinum selling albums. Including No. 1s. Mostly in the Country and Irish genre I'm afraid. Though I did record That Petrol Emotion and Christy Moore and Donal Lunny etc.

I've also played live with That Petrol Emotion on UK TV to 2.2 million people.

I've toured Uk, Europe (many times), The US (3 tours) and Australia or worked with live Andy White, Christy Moore , Something Happens, Voice of the Beehive, That Petrol Emotion, Madness (including their '92 comeback gigs to 72,000 people over 2 nights in Finsbury Park), Frank Black of the Pixies etc.

I've mixed Front-of-House at the Fleadh in Finsbury Park, London.

I've worked on Tours with Iggy Pop and Crowded House too.

I was house engineer at a studio in Athlone in the 80s and Monasterevin in the 90s.

I've also ran my own studio commercially for about 5 years in Tullamore. After that I was a bit worn out with the whole thing and got a great opportunity from Paul Lyttle in Musicmaker to manage and restructure the Hi-Tech floor where I learned an awful lot about Keyboards and the business.

After 3 months there I sold more in one month than anyone had since the store opened . I worked there for one year where I was the most successful saleman ever, over doubling the sales of my nearest colleague.

I now work semi-professionally Mixing, usually at weekends - My recent clients have been mixing The Blizzards and Glen Baker, son of Don, whose album we finish Saturday.

Anything else you'd like to know?

PaulBrewer

jtsuited wrote: »

. This kind of thing is sort of frowned upon, because you may not be giving accurate advice.

For instance, I noticed a while ago (can find the post if you want), you said something to the effect of you are not gonna get as good a sound from cheap plugins as you are from a 3 grand box of circuits and valves. Well do you as a dealer make more money from those big expensive boxes or from plugins that most people don't go to a dealership to buy?

This particular statement is wildly inaccurate, and when your only basis for saying it is 'i work in the pro-audio industry', I get understandably annoyed.


Granted some of your knowledge will be extremely helpful to many people, but much of your namedropping and general pushing of the posh stuff (your words, not mine) is simply not helpful in any way to the posters here. well not as far as i can see anyway.

many people coming here will generally not have much knowledge/experience in the area, so when you start recommending Apogee Duets to people whose budget is 20% of the cost of one, you are misleading people under your 'pro-this, pro-that' vibe.

add to that your sig, your Sonic Safari post, and numerous other times when you attempt to display some sort of profile in the recording industry, and you are easily going to lead many people down a route that while being beneficial to you, may not be in their best interest.

"This kind of thing is sort of frowned upon, because you may not be giving accurate advice."

Frowned upon by who, certainly not the Moderators who have consistently "frowned upon" your spiteful posts ? I refute entirely that I've ever given or will ever give accurate advice. That's how I make my living, giving good advice. Speaking of which .... have you ever posted anything relevant to music?

"you said something to the effect of you are not gonna get as good a sound from cheap plugins as you are from a 3 grand box of circuits and valves."
This is, in my opinion, the case,. If it wasn't then all manufacturers of high end gear wouldn't be in business, as everyone would simply buy the 'cheap plugins' - You've also quoted me out of context. My point was and is that it's manufacturers marketing that has home guys believe that a Euro 50 Plug-In will do the same job as a Hi End product.
Unless you've done a A/B comparison, you don't know.

"This particular statement is wildly inaccurate, and when your only basis for saying it is 'i work in the pro-audio industry', I get understandably annoyed."

No not 'understandably' and certainly not with the language, rudeness and implications in your posts.

"so when you start recommending Apogee Duets to people whose budget is 20% of the cost of one, you are misleading people under your 'pro-this, pro-that' vibe."
The Duet is a superb box at a fair price. Again you're quoting me out of context and there is NO misleading going on, again an unfair and untrue statement by you. If memory serves me my post was referring to the unit as an option that was/is getting great reviews. No more, no less.

"Granted some of your knowledge will be extremely helpful to many people, but much of your namedropping"
Get life will ya?, it's only a bit of craic- and as I said before, I've some nice names to drop.

"and general pushing of the posh stuff (your words, not mine) is simply not helpful in any way to the posters here. well not as far as i can see anyway."

Thats the real problem, Head, that's the real problem

jtsuited

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Anything else you'd like to know?

yes, are you going to respond to the rest of my post? edit i see you did.

i asked the question out of genuine curiousity. tbh, I'm quite underwhelmed as I know plenty of people who 'worked on huge albums' and 'worked with' mega-selling artists but come to me looking for advice all the time.

There used to be a lot of jobs in the industry in the time you're talking about, and hence this experience is not in anyway a sign of knowledge about today's recording world. Well not to me anyway.

If you had specifically been the producer on certain major albums, I would give you a lot more credit than I do. I personally know one engineer who engineered on 4 albums that sold over ten million copies back in those days, and he would be the first to admit that he's not the most knowledgeable about music technology. I'm not going to name obviously as he has a business to run.

My point is that while you may have all that experience, in the context of recommending products and whatnot, it is worth very little in terms of authority on the subject. I'm sorry but it's not.

jtsuited

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Unless you've done a A/B comparison, you don't know.

"

and you know i've never A/B'd any plugin against hardware? For the record I have, and have been around many A/B sessions when a certain large organisation was planning on purchasing a lot of plugins.

The only people who come out with misleading information like 'cheap plugins are never gonna sound as good as your posh hardware' are dealers like yourself.
theoretically and mathematically there is no reason why cheap plugins can't sound as good as expensive hardware.
I'm sure you know all about convolution technology and how it can accurately (to the extent that in a double-blind test the vast majority of skilled ears cannot tell the difference) recreate the quality of high end hardware. Or maybe not?
you seem like a person too obsessed with status, branding, and commerce, to give reasonable advice to people all the time.

and you don't get paid to give good advice. you get paid to sell gear and give advice that keeps the customers coming and buying. there is a world of difference.

But no, you will ignore that fact and present your own version of reality on the basis of 'pro-experience'.

PaulBrewer

jtsuited wrote: »

yes, are you going to respond to the rest of my post? edit i see you did.

i asked the question out of genuine curiousity. tbh, I'm quite underwhelmed as I know plenty of people who 'worked on huge albums' and 'worked with' mega-selling artists but come to me looking for advice all the time.

There used to be a lot of jobs in the industry in the time you're talking about, and hence this experience is not in anyway a sign of knowledge about today's recording world. Well not to me anyway.

If you had specifically been the producer on certain major albums, I would give you a lot more credit than I do. I personally know one engineer who engineered on 4 albums that sold over ten million copies back in those days, and he would be the first to admit that he's not the most knowledgeable about music technology. I'm not going to name obviously as he has a business to run.

My point is that while you may have all that experience, in the context of recommending products and whatnot, it is worth very little in terms of authority on the subject. I'm sorry but it's not.

"i asked the question out of genuine curiousity. tbh, I'm quite underwhelmed as I know plenty of people who 'worked on huge albums' and 'worked with' mega-selling artists but come to me looking for advice all the time."
I'm sure it's a dreadful burden .... what point are you trying to make- You're an expert?

"There used to be a lot of jobs in the industry in the time you're talking about, and hence this experience is not in anyway a sign of knowledge about today's recording world. "

Oh yeah? You obviously weren't around then now where you? In the 80s there were virtually no jobs for anyone, all my class mates left the country for work! I've worked consistently in the industry up to and including 'Today's recording world"
Also in Ireland at that time there was Nowhere to study recording- making it doubly hard to get into the industry.
You're clutching at straws now, remember everyone will read this tomorrow.
Also you will acknowledge my "dropped" names might be a source of a few nuggets of knowledge?

"Well not to me anyway." ah, the crux of the problem again.

"If you had specifically been the producer on certain major albums, I would give you a lot more credit than I do."
That sounds like an accusation of lying again? I didn't say major albums. As I said as well as the artists I mentioned I recorded a lot of Country and Irish albums, some as Producer, some as Engineer and some Programming. I worked with all the big names in that Genre , Daniel O'Donnell, Foster and Allen, Big Tom, Margo, Richie Kavanagh, Ray Lynam etc etc? I'll take that credit now, shall I?

"My point is that while you may have all that experience, in the context of recommending products and whatnot, it is worth very little in terms of authority on the subject. I'm sorry but it's not"

And what, exactly, in your educated opinion would be?

I really can't believe you're still posting this nonsense - when are you going to back down?
I'm not the baddie and you're just embarrassing yourself...

jtsuited

PaulBrewer wrote: »

" I worked with all the big names in that Genre , Daniel O'Donnell, Foster and Allen, Big Tom, Margo, Richie Kavanagh, Ray Lynam etc etc? I'll take that credit now, shall I?

lol. i think i need not say more on the matter.
i'm finished with this now, as I don't really have much faith in you actually using reason or logic in this discussion.
maybe drop a few names instead? that seems to work!:D

PaulBrewer

jtsuited wrote: »

and you know i've never A/B'd any plugin against hardware? For the record I have, and have been around many A/B sessions when a certain large organisation was planning on purchasing a lot of plugins.

The only people who come out with misleading information like 'cheap plugins are never gonna sound as good as your posh hardware' are dealers like yourself.
theoretically and mathematically there is no reason why cheap plugins can't sound as good as expensive hardware.
I'm sure you know all about convolution technology and how it can accurately (to the extent that in a double-blind test the vast majority of skilled ears cannot tell the difference) recreate the quality of high end hardware. Or maybe not?
you seem like a person too obsessed with status, branding, and commerce, to give reasonable advice to people all the time.

and you don't get paid to give good advice. you get paid to sell gear and give advice that keeps the customers coming and buying. there is a world of difference.

But no, you will ignore that fact and present your own version of reality on the basis of 'pro-experience'.

"and you know i've never A/B'd any plugin against hardware?" No, that's why I asked

" For the record I have, and have been around many A/B sessions when a certain large organisation was planning on purchasing a lot of plugins" Specifics Head, remember everyones watching...

"theoretically and mathematically" Oh? It's musically I'm interested in - and most of the best ears on the planet disagree with that...

"there is no reason why cheap plugins can't sound as good as expensive hardware." Perhaps, and maybe someday they will.

"you seem like a person too obsessed with status, branding, and commerce, to give reasonable advice to people all the time." You've never met me- that's just another petty comment. What exactly is your beef?

"you get paid to sell gear and give advice that keeps the customers coming and buying." They'd only do that if it's good advice, No? and gave them what they wanted to get from the transaction? - or are you dissing my customers now too?

PaulBrewer

jtsuited wrote: »

lol. i think i need not say more on the matter.
i'm finished with this now, as I don't really have much faith in you actually using reason or logic in this discussion.
maybe drop a few names instead? that seems to work!:D

I've answered all your questions accurately and honestly - that's all I can do. Lets see what the other board members think in the morning....

frobisher

Paul & jtsuited, you guys are taking this thread away from a very relevant discussion into a bit of a "did not/did too" willy measuring contest. Can we bring it back on topic or are we really facing pistols at dawn here? As 2 great posters it'd be nice to put this to bed and have you back contributing and growing the board rather than arguing, regardless of whether one or both of you is is right or wrong.

If it doesn't get brought back on topic straight away I'll have to delete some posts and I hate doing that. BUT, if you guys agree and request it I'll delete the above posts to bring the whole thread back on topic and we're all back on an even keel.

As a reminder here is an extract from this boards charter:
• No personal attacks or offensive remarks. Let’s be nice to each other round here. Warnings will be followed by bans for offenders.
• All levels of knowledge are welcome from the most advanced to the most basic. By answering simple questions and helping learners we grow our community. If you reeaaaally need to tell someone to RTFM, do it nicely!

PaulBrewer

Yea, I suppose.
I'm just annoyed at being constantly attacked and no answer being good enough - perhaps I ought not be too sensitive!
Anyways, Forum members can make up their own minds. Feel free to delete, though I'd prefer you to leave it so others can see what all the (pointless!) fuss was about.

Cheers from a slightly more relaxed me...

ogy

i think having everyone from novices to experienced pros/dealers all active on the one forum should be a massive advantage. its madness to be getting on someones case for sayin "heres a load of magazines that will help you get better at recording", "im organising a free day for you to meet some people who know loads of stuff and ask them questions/try out equipment" etc. of course such people have a vested interest in maintaining and encouraging our interest in music and recording but i don't think theyre doing it in a cold/corporate way. as theyve said we're free to take them up on all these things but then never buy anything from them:)
what theyre doing is about as underhanded as someone saying "hey, ive just finished these tunes, let me know what you think of the mixes" when secretely theyre hoping you'll like the music and maybe add them as a friend on myspace, scoundrels:)
if someone on the board was organising something like this and didn't tell us, knowing that a lot of readers would be interested, would it not be ridiculous?

on top of all this theyre more than happy to offer up advice whenever anyone asks. i think that advice is generally impartial and reflects theyre experience, its not like "well i think you should buy this from me, its the only thing that will solve your problems". why should my replies be ok to query despite my limited experience, and someone elses replies be called into question because they have more experience and more access to equipment than me, thats a bit ridiculous i think.

name dropping lends gravitas to someone point of view, its partly self gratifying but its partly shows that "i didn't just read this in sound on sound". if i landed a job engineering an album for someone pretty famous id probably mention it loads, and half the name dropping has occurred because the person has been baited into it.

i think all these general questions about "is this forum getting too commerical" all stems from personal questioning of one or two posters, who in my opinion have had a positive impact on the forum since they arrived, and if nothing else have generated a bit of variation to the types of posts and discussions on the forum.

Almost all the posts that have been called into question in my opinion have been maybe 80% helping the community and 20% in the persons own interest. This is fine with me, as we're all grown ups and Big Bad Mr. Paul isn't gonna trick me into buying anything i don't want:)

PS
- apogee duet is a brilliant recommendation for a starter interface, its less than €500 quid and will straight away be very close to pro quality. it might be a bit more expensive than a 200-300 quid m-audio yoke, but if the person wants a genuine response its definitely one product you could say "this might be a bit more expensive but it will do you a lot longer than any of that other stuff". And there was no added on "...which my shop sells if your interested".
- the in the box vs. out of the box debate is a massive area of contention throughout the industry as far as i know. using someones opinion on it as a criticism of them is daft. you could get some of the best engineers/mastering engineers/design engineers/programmers etc. and theyd all disagree on it. you can't call someones opinion on it "misleading" if it is there own opinion, which is a caveat you have to take into account when getting advice from anyone! start a thread on it if you want to stir up debate about it.

i think everyone should chill out:)