MP3 players banned at Ballycotton

dlane99

Cork BHAA have also recently banned headphones at their events.

I was just wondering what people think about this.

Do you think that wearing headphones really is a safety hazard?

I normally listen to podcasts while running so I'm a bit disappointed

tunney

Agreed completely with it.

Clum

There's a big move in the States by the USATF to ban headphones from road races.

As The Final Sprint put it:
USATF enacted the ban in accordance with a rule put in place by the IAAF which banned the use of headphones in championship events. The IAAF ban was intended to prevent athletes from receiving information via radio about the whereabouts of their rivals, a practice which is permitted in the big bicycle tours, like the Tour de France.

But in practical application, it has meant that recreational runners are not allowed to wear MP3 players, like Apple’s iPod, and listen to music during road races. Only a handful of U.S. races have actively enforced the ban.

Peckham

I think a major drive of this may be insurance considerations - accidents are more likely to happen when people have more of a focus on their tunes than the runners around them.

aburke

Banned in Connemara this year too.
Makes perfect sense.
Many people, though certainly not all, have the voume too loud to hear other runners, and especially traffic.
Most road races don't get 'full' road closures, and there is always the chance of some traffic.

shels4ever

I also agree, On another note i found my running improved no end when i stopped using one. Nothing like hearing your foot falls and breathing on a run.

rovers_runner

Now if they could ban them from the start of large events such as the BUPA run where there is carnage at the start we'd be flying.

glennhysen

aburke wrote: »

Banned in Connemara this year too.
Makes perfect sense.
Many people, though certainly not all, have the voume too loud to hear other runners, and especially traffic.
Most road races don't get 'full' road closures, and there is always the chance of some traffic.

are you for real Alan, god that is going to make the 13.1 miles damn hard!!

RoyMcC

Inevitable I'm afraid, though how one enforces the ban interests me (as a former race organiser). Do you DQ anyone you spot using one or what?

Personally I too am inseparable from my iPod during long runs. However surely on race day it's better to enjoy your surroundings, chat to fellow runners etc?

Glennhysen you pay good money to suffer in Conn, why would you need the distraction

aburke

glennhysen wrote: »

are you for real Alan, god that is going to make the 13.1 miles damn hard!!

Yep For real.
I'm relatively new to organising races [3 or 4 years], but this has become a real issue only in the last 2 maybe, with smaller Ipods and MP3 players.

Inevitable I'm afraid, though how one enforces the ban interests me (as a former race organiser). Do you DQ anyone you spot using one or what?

I'll be honest and say we haven't thought about how it will be enforced yet.
We won't be confiscating them though!

Alan

Racing Flat

As a purist, I think part of the enjoyment of running is being free with your thoughts. Headphones may interfere with this, so I'm not a fan.

Popsicle

I'm doing this race and got my number etc in the post during the week. It didn't say anything (that I noticed) about banning MP3 players!!

What are they going to do? Yank if off me on my way round??

They will have to catch me first!:D

dlane99

Popsicle wrote: »

I'm doing this race and got my number etc in the post during the week. It didn't say anything (that I noticed) about banning MP3 players!!

Yup, it says it in the orange book...

Popsicle

I won't have time to read that before next Sunday!!;)

thirtyfoot

Willie Banks was a triple jumper back in the '80's. He was a bit mental. He used to wear headphones listening to music between jumps. They tried to ban or did ban him from wearing them as they suspected he was getting communication from his coach because back then once your competition started you couldn't talk to your coach.

Back on topic, I'd be like the purist Racing Flat and ban them full stop, for me I could never run with music.

TheRoadRunner

in an earlier thread I said I would like to run to music but can't........................Well that changed a couple of weeks back and sometimes when I'm not in the mood I stick my nano on and I find it helps. I can totally understand the banning of them though as they are unsafe in a race setting.

Condo131

Popsicle wrote: »

I won't have time to read that before next Sunday!!;)

Ignorance (of the rule) is no excuse! This rule is being imposed by more and more organisations for safety purposes and also as a condition imposed by insurers.

There have been several incidents in races involving people with headphones in recent times. You want to jog along to music...go find a fun run.

On Sunday there will be over 3000 closely packed people heading down slope, down a narrow street/road - there is a big drop over the first 1.5 miles. The risk of falling is high and there are fallers every year. Do us a favour - leave the music in the car/bus/whatever and look out for the safety of everyone else.

As regards what are they going to do? ......Probably ask you nicely, knowing the Ballycotton folk.
If you don't comply and run away....they know where you live...you put it on the form...and you'll put your number one your front.
If you don't have a number you won't be allowed to finish - you'll be pulled out of the finish line and won't appear in the results.
If you do wear your number and wear headphones on the course...don't expect to get an entry into any Ballycotton race in the future! ..and they DO scrutinise the videos.....and the videos are not just at the start/finish!

Maybe you're not bothered about safety of others, or rising insurance costs, or even entering future Ballycotton races. If so, why bother at all this year. Go to the gym and jog away to your music and your heart's content and you won't bother anyone.

dreddie

Racing Flat wrote: »

As a purist, I think part of the enjoyment of running is being free with your thoughts. Headphones may interfere with this, so I'm not a fan.

For some it may be 'being free with your thoughts' for others maybe being 'free with your music etc'. I only use my MP3 if I have to use a treadmill otherwise I'm in 'free with your thoughts' group.

However I would feel people should have the right to make their own choices.

A lot has been said regarding safety and using MP3s etc. Can anybody point me in the direction of reliable research on this or is it purely based on speculation, conjecture and anecdotal evidence?

Popsicle

Wow Condo131,

Who peed in your conflakes??
I am perfectly bothered by my own safety and the safety of others and despite what you and others think, it is possible to listen to music at a reasonable level and still be AWARE of what is going on around you. Unless of course, one is a complete fool. Of which there appear to be a lot around lately)

Having said that, I am not the type of person to blatantly disregard the kind requests of the people who spend so much time and effort organising these events. I will discuss with my fellow runners and decide on the day!

You want to jog along to music...go find a fun run.

Who are you?
As a member of a very well regarded running club and have ran at numerous events over numerous types of courses over the years, I have always listened to music. Even abroad. I run competively at club level and I don't "do" fun-runs my dear and don't take kindly to your attitute.:D

I have found over the years the number of people using MP3 players etc is always in the minority. But people should have the right to make their own choices on the matter.

Condo131

Popsicle wrote: »

Wow Condo131,

Who peed in your conflakes??
I am perfectly bothered by my own safety and the safety of others and despite what you and others think, it is possible to listen to music at a reasonable level and still be AWARE of what is going on around you. Unless of course, one is a complete fool. Of which there appear to be a lot around lately)

Having said that, I am not the type of person to blatantly disregard the kind requests of the people who spend so much time and effort organising these events. I will discuss with my fellow runners and decide on the day!

You want to jog along to music...go find a fun run.

Who are you?
As a member of a very well regarded running club and have ran at numerous events over numerous types of courses over the years, I have always listened to music. Even abroad. I run competively at club level and I don't "do" fun-runs my dear and don't take kindly to your attitute.:D

I have found over the years the number of people using MP3 players etc is always in the minority. But people should have the right to make their own choices on the matter.

Who peed in your conflakes??..... .... (I) don't take kindly to your attitute

Well I certainly didn't take that tone with you! You clearly stated that you weren't going to read the pre-race safety instruction, even when another poster pointed it out to you, hence a more assertive tone than you will get from the Ballycotton people on Sunday. Even now you are saying that you will discuss the matter, not with the race organisers, but with fellow runners. Have you ever been in the Ballycotton 10 before? Nearly 3500 runners going downhill, on a NARROW 2 lane road, spectators lining the side and YOU want to ignore the organisers instructions:eek:

You may not, and clearly don't like what I had to say, but the content was objective and intended for those who do care for the safety of others.

As I said before, this is being implemented for SAFETY reasons. It is NOT up to YOU to decide the risk factors involved in a race organised by someone else, but YOU are obliged to abide by their procedures.

As regards MP3 wearers being a minority in races, the numbers are increasing, not only among fun-runners but also among "serious athletes". However you won't find genuinely serious athletes wearing them in races.

Dreddie suggests that there is no research on this. I agree. Compiling safety stats is not top of most race organisers list, so reporting of incidents (of any kind) is massively underreported. You will find plenty of discussion at Road Race Managemenmt www.rrm.com/forums , specifically this thread: http://www.rrm.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108&page=2

I also have personal experience of several incidents involving runners with music players. Most of these are just runners cutting others off, however seceral are more serious. The most serious was in the Dublin City Marathon in, I think, 1988 or 1989. An idiot wearing a music player brought down 56 people, including myself, immediately at the start. I was about 10 feet away and about 15 feet from the line and saw what was happening but the impulse from the crowd was too great. Being pushed to the ground, with c. 8000 runners behind was a frightening experience.

As I said in the previous post, I don't know what the Ballycotton people intend as a sanction, but don't expect them to do nothing. I would expect, and support, a ban from future events.

As a member of a very well regarded running club and have ran at numerous events over numerous types of courses over several decades, I have NEVER listened to music. Even abroad. I also organise and direct large events. I run competively at national level and I do "do" fun-runs my dear and I don't take kindly to YOUR attitute.

aburke

Popsicle wrote: »

I am perfectly bothered by my own safety and the safety of others and despite what you and others think, it is possible to listen to music at a reasonable level and still be AWARE of what is going on around you. Unless of course, one is a complete fool. Of which there appear to be a lot around lately)

And the hammer hits the nail on the head!
It's not about the majority, who keep the volume low, use only one earpiece, or otherwise know what they are doing.
It's about the cluless minority who 'get lost in their music' and are a danger to others.

Popsicle wrote: »

Having said that, I am not the type of person to blatantly disregard the kind requests of the people who spend so much time and effort organising these events. I will discuss with my fellow runners and decide on the day!

When you take part in any road race, or indeed any event, you agree to abide by the rules and regulations. You can't pick and choose which rules you are going to adhere to.

Popsicle wrote: »

I have found over the years the number of people using MP3 players etc is always in the minority. But people should have the right to make their own choices on the matter.

People HAVE a choice. They can choose not to take part, because the find the rules [in this case, no mp3 players] too strict.
They are welcome to go for a run in their local park, and follow whatever rules they want.

Can anybody point me in the direction of reliable research on this or is it purely based on speculation, conjecture and anecdotal evidence?

I can only speak for events I have been involved with, and I have seen too many people wander all over the road while wearing headphones.
Yes, many people do this without headphones too, but at least they will hear cars/competitors coming up behind them.
So in my case, it's based on experience. Maybe I should dig into the literature to see whether there is any papers written to show that people wearing headphones can hear less of what's around them.

Regards
Alan

Stark

Condo131 wrote: »

As I said in the previous post, I don't know what the Ballycotton people intend as a sanction, but don't expect them to do nothing. I would expect, and support, a ban from future events.

Considering they have to turn away people as it is because the numbers are too great, I also wouldn't be surprised at a ban for those acting the dick.

Popsicle

Condo131 wrote: »

Well I certainly didn't take that tone with you! You clearly stated that you weren't going to read the pre-race
You may not, and clearly don't like what I had to say, but the content was objective and intended for those who do care for the safety of others.

As regards MP3 wearers being a minority in races, the numbers are increasing, not only among fun-runners but also among "serious athletes". However you won't find genuinely serious athletes wearing them in races.
QUOTE]


Hi Condo,

I am not in the business of arguing with people and believe it or not am a very obliging person!! But let me clarify a few matters.

You say you didn't take tone with me??? Do you really think I would have replied in such a manner if I didn't feel there was some tone taken in your post!! The first word of your first post on the matter in a direct reply to my post was "IGNORANCE"........ can you truthfully tell me now that I wasn't to take meaning from that that you felt I was being ignorant (of the rules or just plain ignorant!)

Secondly, I didn't clearly state I wasn't going to read the rule book. My mail read... I won't have time to read that before Sunday, followed by two exclamation marks and a wink! I think we could agree it was a flippant remark and I don't think it would be held up anywhere as a statement of intent!

Thirdly you said in your mail "You want to jog along to music, go find a fun run! Forgive me for finding this remark a little sarcastic.

To answer your question, yes, I have been to the Ballycotton 10 before.

Again, I didn't find your content objective and again you go on to imply that I don't care about the safety of others.

I am very sorry to hear you had a nasty experience in a fall and I can only imagine how terrifying it would be.

To be perfectly honest with you and despite my earlier bravado, I probably won't wear my MP3 player on Sunday. However, I will miss it and I will be pretty annoyed looking around at others who do and get away it with!!

thirtyfoot

Popsicle wrote: »

However, I will miss it and I will be pretty annoyed looking around at others who do and get away it with!!

Athletic history has had many runners who have run with a similar cause. John Mayock beating all the Spaniards in Spain in the indoors in the 3k or even Cathal Lombard last saturday spring to mind. Paul Brizzell angry after getting hit on the head with a sound boom in the 200 in one of the majors used his anger to re-run and qualify or our Brazilian friend rugby tackled by the mad Irish priest in Athens. Embrace your anger and annoyance and use it positively, you could be on for a pb and this could be the making of you and much better than any eye of the tiger or born to run or other such inspirational tunes that drive people. Finally, take solace in the fact that you are running 'clean' and to the rules and be sure to take great heart when you beat those around you who blatantly breaking the rules and listening to Hero from Enrique Iglesias as they cross the line.

I am saddened by the scourge of ipod and mp3 players, its ruining our sport. Sad day for athletics. I advocate a life ban.

Popsicle

Tingle wrote: »

Athletic history has had many runners who have run with a similar cause. John Mayock beating all the Spaniards in Spain in the indoors in the 3k or even Cathal Lombard last saturday spring to mind. Paul Brizzell angry after getting hit on the head with a sound boom in the 200 in one of the majors used his anger to re-run and qualify or our Brazilian friend rugby tackled by the mad Irish priest in Athens. Embrace your anger and annoyance and use it positively, you could be on for a pb and this could be the making of you and much better than any eye of the tiger or born to run or other such inspirational tunes that drive people. Finally, take solace in the fact that you are running 'clean' and to the rules and be sure to take great heart when you beat those around you who blatantly breaking the rules and listening to Hero from Enrique Iglesias as they cross the line.

I am saddened by the scourge of ipod and mp3 players, its ruining our sport. Sad day for athletics. I advocate a life ban.

Thanks Tingle!

I will try and channel it in the right direction. Training hasn't being going according to plan but I'll give it a shot!
My taste in music is much better than that by the way!!!!!:D

Condo131

Popsicle wrote: »

The first word of your first post on the matter in a direct reply to my post was "IGNORANCE"........ can you truthfully tell me now that I wasn't to take meaning from that that you felt I was being ignorant (of the rules or just plain ignorant!)

If you want to take one word from a sentence, and then take it totally out of context, then clearly you are, at least in this case, argmentative. You have taken this as a purely personal attack. The entire intent of the postings was to STRONGLY discourage people from wearing headphones on Sunday.

The point regarding the mass fall in Dublin was to illustrate what HAS happened - not anecdotal evidence - Dublin BHAA can confirm this - when someone wearing headphones has an incident.

If a similar incident were to occur on sunday next, in a much more confined area and runners starting a lot faster than in a marathon, I suspect the consequences would be far more serious. As it is, there will be several ambulance at the event on Sunday, Cork University Hospital has been notified of the event, there will be doctors present and more medical personnel will be on standby. AND people WILL be hospitalised following the race. Race personnel will include defibrillator trained people. Safety is taken VERY SERIOUSLY by BRP.

I don't doubt that you will be disappointed in not wearing your music player but don't worry, those who do wear them on Sunday will be sanctioned. I haven't been able to confirm what form of sanction, if any, but I don't believe that BRP will take none.

Have a good one one Sunday!..and everyone else too!:)

Odysseus

aburke wrote: »

And the hammer hits the nail on the head!
It's not about the majority, who keep the volume low, use only one earpiece, or otherwise know what they are doing.
It's about the cluless minority who 'get lost in their music' and are a danger to others.



When you take part in any road race, or indeed any event, you agree to abide by the rules and regulations. You can't pick and choose which rules you are going to adhere to.


People HAVE a choice. They can choose not to take part, because the find the rules [in this case, no mp3 players] too strict.
They are welcome to go for a run in their local park, and follow whatever rules they want.


I can only speak for events I have been involved with, and I have seen too many people wander all over the road while wearing headphones.
Yes, many people do this without headphones too, but at least they will hear cars/competitors coming up behind them.
So in my case, it's based on experience. Maybe I should dig into the literature to see whether there is any papers written to show that people wearing headphones can hear less of what's around them.

Regards
Alan

Yes but to be fair I have only just heard of the ban for connemara, is it a recent decision? If I had know about it when I signed up I would have to of given it some thought even though its the only 60k in Ireland. As regards to peoples safety from my viewpoint these accidents, near misses and so on are due to idiots, take their MP3s away and you still have idiots, they just don't have music. If they get dangerously distracted whilst listening to music I'm sure they will get distracted by something else.

dreddie

Condo,

I must address a few points. Firstly I do not suggest that there is no research on this. I am merely trying to find properly carried out, statistically significant research which proves the point one way or the other.

Secondly your example of the marathon pile up is exactly the type of anecdotal evidence to which I am referring. It appears to have been neither investigated nor the cause verified. It is also using an individual case and generalising to prove a point. It does not prove the point!

Likewise I was almost involved in a similar but smaller situation in a BHAA race last year where about 6-8 people went down near the start without a set of headphones in sight. Again this does not prove the case.

Proper research needs to be done on this issue if race organisers are to make decisions based on sound evidence rather that chat room conjecture! If safety stats are not high on their list of priorities then they should be because they are the ones that will be held responsible when something goes wrong.

And remember 'if we tolerate this our children will be next'.

aburke

Odysseus wrote: »

Yes but to be fair I have only just heard of the ban for connemara, is it a recent decision? If I had know about it when I signed up I would have to of given it some thought even though its the only 60k in Ireland. As regards to peoples safety from my viewpoint these accidents, near misses and so on are due to idiots, take their MP3s away and you still have idiots, they just don't have music. If they get dangerously distracted whilst listening to music I'm sure they will get distracted by something else.

Hmmm, maybe we should just let people wear the mp3 players.. it will be easier to identify the idiots :-)

It's not recent, it had been pondered for a while.
I'll be talking to the race director sometime this week, and I'll clarify the position.

Odysseus

Cheers thanks for getting back to me. I can spot them at 200m if you need a hand;) If you would'nt mind would you give an update on what ye the organisers decide when you clarify the position. There are other things that may now prevent me for gettting there on the day, but I'm doing my best to get them sorted and think that I have. I'm still hoping to stick to my plan of a 100k at the end of June, so a 60k in April will have to be done, whether its in connemara or by myself. However, not that my pulling out with affect anything on the MP3 issue but I am considering it.

Condo131

dreddie wrote: »

Condo,

I must address a few points. Firstly I do not suggest that there is no research on this. I am merely trying to find properly carried out, statistically significant research which proves the point one way or the other.

OK, point taken. I meant to agree that there was little sound evidence available. However, there is mounting evidence of problems arising from using headphones. As I said, check out the RRM.com forum. This is a US race director's forum and there was a lot of info on the forum regarding, among others, the 2007 Chicago marathon which had to be abandoned due to high temperature conditions combined with the complete overload of the local hospital ER depts. Many headphone wearers did not hear the announcements and some resisted being physically pulled off the course. Google it!

Secondly your example of the marathon pile up is exactly the type of anecdotal evidence to which I am referring. It appears to have been neither investigated nor the cause verified.

Anecdotal??? Read my previous post. I WAS directly affected, as was a clubmate. They matter WAS investigated by the BHAA. They do HAVE/had video EVIDENCE. The incident was also covered on the RTE news. According to the BHAA 56 people went down in that incident. The BHAA DID conclude that the root cause was an individual wearing headphones. I understand he was banned from BHAA events.

It is also using an individual case and generalising to prove a point. It does not prove the point!

Maybe. However, even the one case illustrates the risks involved. Do you think that a risk of this type is acceptable.

Likewise I was almost involved in a similar but smaller situation in a BHAA race last year where about 6-8 people went down near the start without a set of headphones in sight. Again this does not prove the case.

So what WAS the cause? Or is this anecdotal? Was it investigated. I recently directed a race where there were unconfirmed reports of a faller in the early stages. We sought out and found the faller and investigated the matter fully (individual tripped)

Proper research needs to be done on this issue if race organisers are to make decisions based on sound evidence rather that chat room conjecture!

More and more race organisers are doing risk assessments for their events. Some of this is being pushed by Insurance requirements, but mostly by concern for the safety and well being of ALL participants

If safety stats are not high on their list of priorities then they should be because they are the ones that will be held responsible when something goes wrong

Absolutely wrong in this case. Race organisers can only be held legally responsible if they have been negligent. In this case a risk assessment has been carried out and a rule/requirement is in place and has been notified, in writing, to ALL participants. If an individual defies the rule/requirement and his/her actions result in injury to a third party, then it is probable that that indivual may be held to be negligent.

Put yourself in the place of the organisers of a large race and ask yourself "Does the the use of headphones by participants in any way impair the safety protocols in place, or introduce an unacceptable and unnecessary risk to participants or the public" I think the honest answer to this is "Yes"

And remember 'if we tolerate this our children will be next'.

??? Your point being exactly???